dogpoo Posted October 22, 2013 Author Share Posted October 22, 2013 I will & do report all these touts when I can (I rarely go into the Patong entertainment area, other than for shopping) I wont deal with tuktuk/taxi scum. Not much but at least im not adding to the the problem. Who do you report them to? it's obvious that the police allow the touts to operate so what good is reporting them going to do? Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Sharp Posted October 22, 2013 Popular Post Share Posted October 22, 2013 One thing I find a bit amusing about the whiners here on the subject of Patong and especially the time share touts. I just took my family to Vegas and was approached no less than 12 times in 2 days by time share touts. They were in the entrance to most of the casinos, on the streets downtown, and at all the bus stops. I could'nt help thinking about how few of them there are comparably in Phuket yet, how strange that these people would try to talk a family into spending so much of our quality day time of our vacation to sit through some 3 hour demonstration to buy a share of a place that's known for it's smut. I also kept thinking that they have balls to be doing this so openly as the cops really should be chasing them away. (but they wear suits so I guess it's ok) Patong is calm in comparison when it comes to time share touts. In Las Vegas they would be Americans with the right to work in that country.Time share touts in Thailand are normally from the UK, they arent allowed to work selling timeshare as this is a job reserved for Thais, and they dont have work permits They are generally bottom feeders to boot!IN their late 40s/50s still scraping a living together, living paycheck to paycheck! Social filth Spot on my man spot on !!!! I got approached by one of the scum maggots the other morning he was over 50 for sure . I said r u kiddin me how f....kin old r u to which he was taken by surprise . Your best thinking has got to this in your life wot an embarrassment you must be to you family Now f...off And have a good day haha.. Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogpoo Posted October 22, 2013 Author Share Posted October 22, 2013 One thing I find a bit amusing about the whiners here on the subject of Patong and especially the time share touts. I just took my family to Vegas and was approached no less than 12 times in 2 days by time share touts. They were in the entrance to most of the casinos, on the streets downtown, and at all the bus stops. I could'nt help thinking about how few of them there are comparably in Phuket yet, how strange that these people would try to talk a family into spending so much of our quality day time of our vacation to sit through some 3 hour demonstration to buy a share of a place that's known for it's smut. I also kept thinking that they have balls to be doing this so openly as the cops really should be chasing them away. (but they wear suits so I guess it's ok) Patong is calm in comparison when it comes to time share touts. In Las Vegas they would be Americans with the right to work in that country.Time share touts in Thailand are normally from the UK, they arent allowed to work selling timeshare as this is a job reserved for Thais, and they dont have work permits They are generally bottom feeders to boot!IN their late 40s/50s still scraping a living together, living paycheck to paycheck! Social filth Spot on my man spot on !!!!I got approached by one of the scum maggots the other morning he was over 50 for sure . I said r u kiddin me how f....kin old r u to which he was taken by surprise . Your best thinking has got to this in your life wot an embarrassment you must be to you family Now f...off And have a good day haha.. Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app Excellent!! Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eezergood Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Probably the same guy I suprised - I asked to see his WP then spoke Thai to him he got the message and moved along Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogpoo Posted October 22, 2013 Author Share Posted October 22, 2013 I had to laugh yesterday, sitting by the dirty beach, timeshare girl stopped a couple, convinced them to have a scratch card, the girls face lit up waving to her friend, saying look look! Could it have been first Prize by any chance, 10 mins later they were still trying to convince the couple to go to the office or wherever, the guy kept looking at me smiling as if to say <deleted> help us!! they left without falling for it!! Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post KarenBravo Posted October 22, 2013 Popular Post Share Posted October 22, 2013 Patong's great...........when your in the mood for it. The sheer anarchy of the place can be exciting and at the same time, makes me appreciate where I chose to live. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NamKangMan Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 If all the people talking bad of Patong would stay away, it might be like about 18 years ago, when I moved here. I would very much appreciate this situation. I don't think there will be any problem with people staying away, it's only a matter of time before people seriously get fed up with the filth, the holes, the time share touts, and the incredible amount of building taking place, I stood outside Bansan market looking in both directions and could not believe my eyes, the place is just dirty!! Surely people get fed up not being able to walk anywhere without being pestered by time share touts, massage parlor girls, bar girls and generally having to avoid the filth everywhere, if that place spreads over to Chalong and Rawai it will be goodbye for me! some people like it, some people live there, my condolences!! Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app As sure as Pattaya became a city by the sea, Phuket will become an island city. You best start looking for your alternative now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinginKata Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Quote attributed to the wrong member removed. Please take care when copying quotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macahoom Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) Every time the subject of time share touts comes up, the same old "they have no work permits" is mentioned. I don't know about today but, four or five years ago, many of them had work permits. I'd be surprised if that is not the case today. Edited October 22, 2013 by macahoom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hansgruber Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Every time the subject of time share touts comes up, the same old "they have no work permits" is mentioned. I don't know about today but, four or five years ago, many of them had work permits. I'd be surprised if that is not the case today. That's a typical tout response. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Croc Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Quote attributed to the wrong member removed. Please take care when copying quotes. OK, I see what I did now, apologies for anyone offended by my emoticons. Would be nice if people could learn how to use the quote function properly in the first place to avoid confusion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Old Croc Posted October 22, 2013 Popular Post Share Posted October 22, 2013 I lived in Patong for a period, a couple of years back, and generally liked the place. However, I rarely went to Bangla, spending most of my time in the Nanai area where there were suitable (for me) bars, restaurants and shopping . What I didn't like was the uncontrolled building boom of guesthouses and hotels with little or no regard for environmental concerns. The subsequent flooding, dust, dirt and crowded, decrepit roads became serious issues. (I can't believe they still haven't fixed that middle road!) I am now happily living in Chalong with views of farms, buffalo and jungle clad hills and don't miss the circus that is Patong. However, I am happy it is there because it fills a need for the hundreds of thousands of people who visit it every year. I used to be one of them before I started living on the island. The only time I venture there these days is when I take visitors for a gander. I'm not forced to go, I don't spend the day lolling around on the beach just so I can later write what a shithole it is! I'm not a prude who objects to booze, prostitution or sex shows (Rihanna has one up on me, I've never seen what a ping pong ball can also be used for). I do think there is a market and a place for these things. Patong is that place and I hope it is never shut down. The town is a small contained area in a much larger, beautiful, Island Province and everyone is free to choose if it is a place they want to visit or not. What I object to are the whingers, the religious type crusaders and others, who feel it necessary to continually whine about the place in an attempt to influence others who may be considering going there. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dogpoo Posted October 22, 2013 Author Popular Post Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) I lived in Patong for a period, a couple of years back, and generally liked the place. However, I rarely went to Bangla, spending most of my time in the Nanai area where there were suitable (for me) bars, restaurants and shopping . What I didn't like was the uncontrolled building boom of guesthouses and hotels with little or no regard for environmental concerns. The subsequent flooding, dust, dirt and crowded, decrepit roads became serious issues. (I can't believe they still haven't fixed that middle road!) I am now happily living in Chalong with views of farms, buffalo and jungle clad hills and don't miss the circus that is Patong. However, I am happy it is there because it fills a need for the hundreds of thousands of people who visit it every year. I used to be one of them before I started living on the island. The only time I venture there these days is when I take visitors for a gander. I'm not forced to go, I don't spend the day lolling around on the beach just so I can later write what a shithole it is! I'm not a prude who objects to booze, prostitution or sex shows (Rihanna has one up on me, I've never seen what a ping pong ball can also be used for). I do think there is a market and a place for these things. Patong is that place and I hope it is never shut down. The town is a small contained area in a much larger, beautiful, Island Province and everyone is free to choose if it is a place they want to visit or not. What I object to are the whingers, the religious type crusaders and others, who feel it necessary to continually whine about the place in an attempt to influence others who may be considering going there. What annoys me is the people that come on here complaining about people who are complaining about a <deleted> hole, it's a forum where people can share there views, you do not have to reply if you object so much!! There was no intention of influencing anyone in my op I merely aired my opinion after being in Patong for the first time in a long time, nothing to get upset about!! I am sure people are grown up enough to make a decision about going to a place or not going to a place, I merely told others what I discovered! Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Edited October 22, 2013 by dogpoo 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xylophone Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I first came to Patong nine years ago and enjoyed my holiday, even though I considered the place a little dirty. The nightlife was vibrant and I wasn't really aware of the ping-pong show touts etc (probably a little naive then) nor the timeshare touts, if indeed they existed In those days? I have now lived here full-time for over six years and rather than Patong progressing into what it could be, it has regressed into an absolute shambles. The only saving grace that I consider happening here over that period of time is the building of Jungceylon, which at least has given it a focal point for shopping and dining. Whilst I consider the timeshare and ping-pong touts a bloody nuisance, they are easily waved away. What I can't abide is the absolutely appalling state of the roads (and not just because there are roadworks underway) where on just about any road in Patong, you could lose your life if you hit one of the large potholes. If you add to that the absolutely abysmal state of the planning (sorry, have to use that word, but there is no planning) that goes into the new "roadworks", not to mention the drains, sewerage and septic tank overflows, all of which add to the putrid smell which wafts around Patong from time to time, then you begin to see what really irks me about the place. Of course the rampant corruption also irks and as I have friends who own bars and businesses, it grieves me (and them) no end to see that they have to pay money on a monthly basis to the BIB just in order to survive. And yes, before anyone suggests I move, I think about this many times, however I have made many friends here and I'm not sure that at my time of life I would like to start again somewhere else. So my only hope is that this place will improve, and although I am not hoping for a miracle, I do hope that someone sees that this place has to change, especially with regards to corruption, and that may well be the first step to letting Patong fulfil its potential. I live in hope. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hansgruber Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Patong can't be saved but it can be confined to that area and leave the rest of Phuket alone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patongphil Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I don't know what all this fuss is about - as far as I am concerned VIVA PATONG and all that live there or visit. Lots of bars, lots of restaurants and above all lots and lots and lots and lots of pretty girls. How can you not love the place? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogpoo Posted October 22, 2013 Author Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) I don't know what all this fuss is about - as far as I am concerned VIVA PATONG and all that live there or visit. Lots of bars, lots of restaurants and above all lots and lots and lots and lots of pretty girls. How can you not love the place? Because it's a filthy hole, but each to there own, keep it there, god forbid if it creeps it's seedyness to the rest of Phuket! Oh and lots of holes and not just in the road where there are plenty!! Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Edited October 22, 2013 by dogpoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patongphil Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I don't know what all this fuss is about - as far as I am concerned VIVA PATONG and all that live there or visit. Lots of bars, lots of restaurants and above all lots and lots and lots and lots of pretty girls. How can you not love the place? Because it's a filthy hole, but each to there own, keep it there, god forbid if it creeps it's seedyness to the rest of Phuket! Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Please enlighten me about the "seedyness" you are referring to in Patong that is not "seedy" in Karon. Kata, Chalong, Phuket Town etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogpoo Posted October 22, 2013 Author Share Posted October 22, 2013 I don't know what all this fuss is about - as far as I am concerned VIVA PATONG and all that live there or visit. Lots of bars, lots of restaurants and above all lots and lots and lots and lots of pretty girls. How can you not love the place?Because it's a filthy hole, but each to there own, keep it there, god forbid if it creeps it's seedyness to the rest of Phuket!Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Please enlighten me about the "seedyness" you are referring to in Patong that is not "seedy" in Karon. Kata, Chalong, Phuket Town etc etc. This is coming from a person that has nothing to do with girls of the night, lady boys, Ping pong ball shows or any other disgusting shows they might dream up, I would also like to be in a place that is not filthy dirty! Maybe it's just me. Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NamKangMan Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 One thing I find a bit amusing about the whiners here on the subject of Patong and especially the time share touts. I just took my family to Vegas and was approached no less than 12 times in 2 days by time share touts. They were in the entrance to most of the casinos, on the streets downtown, and at all the bus stops. I could'nt help thinking about how few of them there are comparably in Phuket yet, how strange that these people would try to talk a family into spending so much of our quality day time of our vacation to sit through some 3 hour demonstration to buy a share of a place that's known for it's smut. I also kept thinking that they have balls to be doing this so openly as the cops really should be chasing them away. (but they wear suits so I guess it's ok) Patong is calm in comparison when it comes to time share touts. You actually enjoy being approached by these people 12 times! Have you been to Patong these days? the place is a disgrace and it will at some point drive people away from Phuket, so these people have the balls to be doing this so openly in front of the police, I was by the beach yesterday, there were a group of timeshare touts standing next to a policeman, that should tell you something! they have no work permits and are pests! anyway I have the choice to go there or the choice to stay away, can you guess which one I choose? Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app "the place is a disgrace and it will at some point drive people away from Phuket" - ahhhh, the traditional western market is already detouring Phuket for other destinations in Thailand, and what few come here this high season, if there will be a high season, it will probably be their last time here, until Phuket is fixed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nedkellylives Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Every time the subject of time share touts comes up, the same old "they have no work permits" is mentioned. I don't know about today but, four or five years ago, many of them had work permits. I'd be surprised if that is not the case t Who do you think you are fooling, apart from yourself They do not have work permits and everyone knows this who lives here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patongphil Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Every time the subject of time share touts comes up, the same old "they have no work permits" is mentioned. I don't know about today but, four or five years ago, many of them had work permits. I'd be surprised if that is not the case t Who do you think you are fooling, apart from yourself They do not have work permits and everyone knows this who lives here I live here but do not know this - maybe I am the exception!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogpoo Posted October 22, 2013 Author Share Posted October 22, 2013 One thing I find a bit amusing about the whiners here on the subject of Patong and especially the time share touts. I just took my family to Vegas and was approached no less than 12 times in 2 days by time share touts. They were in the entrance to most of the casinos, on the streets downtown, and at all the bus stops. I could'nt help thinking about how few of them there are comparably in Phuket yet, how strange that these people would try to talk a family into spending so much of our quality day time of our vacation to sit through some 3 hour demonstration to buy a share of a place that's known for it's smut. I also kept thinking that they have balls to be doing this so openly as the cops really should be chasing them away. (but they wear suits so I guess it's ok) Patong is calm in comparison when it comes to time share touts. You actually enjoy being approached by these people 12 times! Have you been to Patong these days? the place is a disgrace and it will at some point drive people away from Phuket, so these people have the balls to be doing this so openly in front of the police, I was by the beach yesterday, there were a group of timeshare touts standing next to a policeman, that should tell you something! they have no work permits and are pests! anyway I have the choice to go there or the choice to stay away, can you guess which one I choose?Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app "the place is a disgrace and it will at some point drive people away from Phuket" - ahhhh, the traditional western market is already detouring Phuket for other destinations in Thailand, and what few come here this high season, if there will be a high season, it will probably be their last time here, until Phuket is fixed. It's just Patong, seriously it is filthy!! What sort of impression do tourists have of Thailand when they are dropped of in a war zone, yea the place looks like a worn torn city, stop <deleted> building, repair the thousand of huge holes in the roads, get rid of the time share nuisance and lower prices to make it attractive to visitors, did I just say attractive, it will never happen the greed is imbedded!! Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macahoom Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Every time the subject of time share touts comes up, the same old "they have no work permits" is mentioned. I don't know about today but, four or five years ago, many of them had work permits. I'd be surprised if that is not the case today. That's a typical tout response. Sorry - I am not a time share tout and have never worked in that industry - never have and never will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macahoom Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Every time the subject of time share touts comes up, the same old "they have no work permits" is mentioned. I don't know about today but, four or five years ago, many of them had work permits. I'd be surprised if that is not the case t Who do you think you are fooling, apart from yourself They do not have work permits and everyone knows this who lives here I can assure you that non-Thai touts did, in the past, have work permits. I cannot say if this is the case at the present time – I don't know. It might be a good idea to comment on things you actually know something about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaffacakes1 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I live in Rawai and have never had any desire to visit Patong in the cold light of day, but have driven through the offending area and agree it is under heavy construction. In Patong's defence however, a few reasons I think it's the undisputed champ for a night out. - Busy every night of the week, not just weekends or in high season. - Lots of Western tourists in holiday mode not complaining about their Issan wives of the price of beer. - Madame Jo Jo's. Fun for all the family. - Huge variety of decent International restaurants - particularly Indian. Higher end some of the best restaurants in Phuket. - You are never more than 5 feet away from a beautiful girl - The tiger bar complex and nightclub for its sheer scale and madness. - Bangla road in general - a whole street dedicated to catering to pleasure. A Mecca of hedonism. In fairness, Bangla Road never said it was Racha island. Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NamKangMan Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) One thing I find a bit amusing about the whiners here on the subject of Patong and especially the time share touts. I just took my family to Vegas and was approached no less than 12 times in 2 days by time share touts. They were in the entrance to most of the casinos, on the streets downtown, and at all the bus stops. I could'nt help thinking about how few of them there are comparably in Phuket yet, how strange that these people would try to talk a family into spending so much of our quality day time of our vacation to sit through some 3 hour demonstration to buy a share of a place that's known for it's smut. I also kept thinking that they have balls to be doing this so openly as the cops really should be chasing them away. (but they wear suits so I guess it's ok) Patong is calm in comparison when it comes to time share touts. You actually enjoy being approached by these people 12 times! Have you been to Patong these days? the place is a disgrace and it will at some point drive people away from Phuket, so these people have the balls to be doing this so openly in front of the police, I was by the beach yesterday, there were a group of timeshare touts standing next to a policeman, that should tell you something! they have no work permits and are pests! anyway I have the choice to go there or the choice to stay away, can you guess which one I choose?Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app "the place is a disgrace and it will at some point drive people away from Phuket" - ahhhh, the traditional western market is already detouring Phuket for other destinations in Thailand, and what few come here this high season, if there will be a high season, it will probably be their last time here, until Phuket is fixed. It's just Patong, seriously it is filthy!! What sort of impression do tourists have of Thailand when they are dropped of in a war zone, yea the place looks like a worn torn city, stop <deleted> building, repair the thousand of huge holes in the roads, get rid of the time share nuisance and lower prices to make it attractive to visitors, did I just say attractive, it will never happen the greed is imbedded!! Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app As mentioned, Patong, particularly Bangla Road, is Phuket's biggest tourist attraction, and yes, it's overpriced and outdated. This is the impression the tourists get. I get a laugh out of watching the first time tourists cover their mouths as they walk near a drain and get a big wiff of the sewer smell along Bangla Road. Truly world class. Sure, along the coast there are nicer beaches, and nicer areas, but then the tourists run into the tuk-tuk rip off to get there. What a great interaction with the locals that is for them, throughout their holiday. They come to Phuket expecting "The Land of Smiles" and leave Phuket thinking Thailand is "The Land of Sh*te." Phuket has become a terrible advertisement for tourism to Thailand. Phuket, in it's entirety, has many fundamental issues that are not ideal for tourists, and the tourism industry in general. You sum it up in one word, greed, and you are correct. Greed is the basis of all things that has now made Phuket undesireable to tourists that have been coming here for years, and used to love the place, and if it continues in the direction it is, will eventually make it an undesirable place to retire to in the future as well. Edited October 22, 2013 by NamKangMan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenBravo Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 It's just Patong, seriously it is filthy!! What sort of impression do tourists have of Thailand when they are dropped of in a war zone, yea the place looks like a worn torn city, stop <deleted> building, repair the thousand of huge holes in the roads, get rid of the time share nuisance and lower prices to make it attractive to visitors, did I just say attractive, it will never happen the greed is imbedded!!Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app I've told you a million times to stop exaggerating....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PattayaPhom Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 ta Patong - that's on Phuket, isn't it? Don't you live on Phuket? I also live on Phuket most of the last 12 years. It has always been bad but it is getting worse. Now, when I go to Patong, I feel like I am entering another country, nay, planet. It's become very Pattaya-ish now. The people outside of Patong are generally very pleasant, at least by comparison, and the areas outside of Patong are generally still very nice. I really, really don't look forward to going there. A friend of mine claims to have lived on Phuket longer than me, in Rawai, and not once has he visited Patong. It's easy to understand why. Nothing like Pattaya. almost everyone one now is a young couple or family.....fraid Patong is now the sexpests fav destination. Just don't know how they afford it with the OTP prices there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PattayaPhom Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 One thing I find a bit amusing about the whiners here on the subject of Patong and especially the time share touts. I just took my family to Vegas and was approached no less than 12 times in 2 days by time share touts. They were in the entrance to most of the casinos, on the streets downtown, and at all the bus stops. I could'nt help thinking about how few of them there are comparably in Phuket yet, how strange that these people would try to talk a family into spending so much of our quality day time of our vacation to sit through some 3 hour demonstration to buy a share of a place that's known for it's smut. I also kept thinking that they have balls to be doing this so openly as the cops really should be chasing them away. (but they wear suits so I guess it's ok) Patong is calm in comparison when it comes to time share touts. You actually enjoy being approached by these people 12 times! Have you been to Patong these days? the place is a disgrace and it will at some point drive people away from Phuket, so these people have the balls to be doing this so openly in front of the police, I was by the beach yesterday, there were a group of timeshare touts standing next to a policeman, that should tell you something! they have no work permits and are pests! anyway I have the choice to go there or the choice to stay away, can you guess which one I choose? Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Some of us have no choice and we must live and work here, for now! So i would rather be trying to help get these issues fixed, whilst i must be here Marketing is not a proffession reserved for Thais and Absolutely most OPCs have work permits so are not working illegally as stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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