Khmer Luu (lue/Luoe) ?

[banglassie]

This post might be better of in the general forum, since it doesn't have much to do with Thai language. But I figured most language heads would hang out here so I thought I would give it a try here first. if it's wrong then please put it where it belongs better.

As many of you know there's quite a big Khmer Lue population in southern Isaan (not sure how to spell the "lue" part in English, so I go for the same as Tai Lue, since the sound "lue" sounds somewhat similar).

Specially Sisaket, Buriram and Surin. Personally I have family in Sisaket/Prai Bueng. I do know that there are regional differences even between the Sisaket Khmer and the Surin Khmer etc.

While traveling together in Cambodia I've noticed the lady sometimes can understand people without a problem, while other times she's completely clueless. I guess the basic of both languages are quite similar, just that Khmer Lue as adapted a lot of Thai words? At least I used to think that until I saw some documentary on youtube about parents building "love huts" for their teenagers in rural Cambodia somewhere, and someone Khmer commented and said they where not khmer at all, while others commented and aid they where Khmer Lue, so I guess there are some differences even within the country? Perhaps somewhat like Middle Thai/Siam-Thai and Isaan-Thai/Lao? I'm quite clueless regarding khmer and only know the absolute basics.

So, my basic question is, is there any serious way to learn Khmer Lue, or is it a language on the edge of extinction? Can't seem to find any lessons online (Much easier to find for Tai Dam, Tai Lue or even hill tribes like Akkha)

Are there any schools or private institute of some kind in Thailand teaching this language? Or should I simply learn like a chil by listening and repeating from the people around me? Courses in Thai are ok since I understand Thai well enough to learn a third language on top of it I think.

In fact, I know it's kind of pointless to learn this language, since we all communicate fine by Thai, but I feel If I do get children, and also for my brother-in-laws children, I want them to keep their roots and be proud of them. Something that can be quite hard in a nation that is more or less Khmerophobic... And I think if I make the effort to learn the language good it will help my future children to learn easier, as well as give some pride to the youngsters around me in Sisaket who want to learn English or Swedish from me. After all, I'm the outsider, and as such I should do my best to become an insider if I want to call it home. Seems quite natural to me.

So, anyone else have been in a similar situation? or have some good tips and tricks? Or should I simply study Cambodian and then go from the mix of my Thai knowledge and Cambodian knowledge to figure out the other small differences?

[AyG]

The Khmer Loeu speak a variety of different languages - not all related. From Wikipedia:

"The major Khmer Loeu groups in Cambodia are the Kuy, Pnong, Stieng, Brao, Tampuan, Pear, Jarai, and Rade. All but the last two speak MonKhmer languages."

As a first step I'd try and identify which Loeu group you're dealing with and precisely which language they speak. If you're lucky you might find some academic work on the language which might help you get started learning it. However, I think it's most unlikely you'll find any sort of formal training material.

Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Loeu

[Ajaan]

First, of all, you're confusing words from two very different languages. In Thai Lue, it's part of what they call themselves, a word from their (Tai-Kadai Family) language. When you hear Cambodians or Surin Khmer saying Khmer Loeu (totally different pronunciation...in Thai transliteration, the former would be ลือ and the later เลอ), they're saying the Khmer word "Loeu," which means "upper".

Now, this "upper" word is used in two ways in Khmer: 1) it can refer to the various upland ethnic/linguistic minorities in Cambodia (as the previous post said), OR it can refer to the ethnic Khmers living in Thailand (whom I'm referring to as Surin Khmer), where the "upper" is not elevation, but above (north of) Cambodia. Confusing, no?!

The Surin Khmer are ethnic Khmer whose ancestors lived in the area (of what's now the Thai provinces of Buriram, Surin, and Sisaket, and to a lesser extent, Khorat, Roi Et and Ubon) long before Thais moved into the area. History was kind to the Thais, we shall say, and they came to be in control of the area and the people. Those people, like various indigenous groups all over the world taken over by an outside power, continue to speak Khmer as their native language at home and in their community.

The Khmer that they speak, as you've observed, is quite different from the Khmer ("Central" or "standard Khmer") spoken in Cambodia. With effort, the two groups can understand about 40% of what each other says. When they close their minds and ears and don't put forth any effort (as does happen sometimes, for a number of reasons), then they can understand almost nothing. But if they try, they can communicate passably...it is the same language, after all.

The explanation of HOW the two dialects are different is quite complex (I've been speaking Central Khmer for almost 30 years, and Surin Khmer for about 8 years). Surin Khmer uses many "ancient" Khmer words and pronunciations that have long since disappeared in Cambodia, so there's that. The Surin Khmer also don't know any of the recent developments in Central Khmer, including all of the French influence on the language (Surin Khmer uses Thai terms for the "modern vocabulary" that Cambodians use French-derived words for). Also, there are a great many differences in basic pronunciation between the two dialects just based on geography (Surin Khmer is a northern/northwest Khmer dialect, and does have dialect cousins in present-day Cambodia), including the fact that Surin Khmer has quite a few less vowels than Central Khmer. Finally, Surin Khmer has borrowed heavily from Thai over the years, both in terms of vocabulary and grammar.

All of the above is compounded by the fact that it's really hard to predict (for an outsider/Central Khmer speaker like myself) exactly which words/phrases the Surin Khmers will speak in Khmer, and which ones they'll use Thai for! In fact, this is a never-ending battle for me as I've tried to learn to speak their dialect myself over the years...drives me nuts sometimes, haha!

What I tell my students when they want to learn Surin Khmer is this: start by getting to an advanced level in standard Khmer, then get to at least an intermediate level in Thai, and THEN tackle Surin Khmer, haha! To date I've had only one student actually do this.

If your goal is just communicating better with those around you, understanding a little, etc., then I'd say your best bet is to just try to observe and learn some basic vocabulary and phrases. There really aren't any teaching materials out there for Surin Khmer. There is a book of dialogs published in the late 70s or so, but I think it's only useful if already know the basic structure of Khmer AND if you can read Thai (the latter is essential, since all the Khmer in it is transliterated in Thai). I'll look up the publication info on it and PM it to you.

[jdinasia]

I would simply focus on Thai and Khmer if I were the OP.

[banglassie]

The Khmer Loeu speak a variety of different languages - not all related. From Wikipedia:

"The major Khmer Loeu groups in Cambodia are the Kuy, Pnong, Stieng, Brao, Tampuan, Pear, Jarai, and Rade. All but the last two speak MonKhmer languages."

As a first step I'd try and identify which Loeu group you're dealing with and precisely which language they speak. If you're lucky you might find some academic work on the language which might help you get started learning it. However, I think it's most unlikely you'll find any sort of formal training material.

Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Loeu

Thanks for the info! The Khmer Loeu group of mine is Khmer La-or (ละออ) (which isn't even mentioned above) And is mainly spoken in and around Prai Bueng I guess.

[banglassie]

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Thanks a lot! Really good explanation. I have only very very basic knowledge of modern day Cambodian/khmer. Thai I can read quite fluently, although might have problem with some words if I haven't seen them before, usually those derived from Pali using consonants that are almost forgotten and the doubble รร or ฤ and similar. But I can still usually figure it out with some effort.

So, I guess I will go for the Surin version, since at least there is SOME material out there for it, as for ละออ I will simply learn from my family.

Many thanks!