FLR & English Qualification Validity

[durhamboy]

This document from Tony is very interesting. I also note that BULATS is one of the English Test Providers listed as being acceptable even if expired.

It will be very interesting to see what UKV&I say via your MP. I think I will hold fire on my letter to them pending their reply.

One thing occurs to me (and I might be off-base here) but from the conflicting information we have been given is it possible for someone to get a B1 certificate for BULATS and be refused FLR but it would be acceptable when they apply for ILR and citizenship? If true, then that would be totally absurd! No doubt 7 by 7 will correct me if that is not a possible scenario although it seems possible to me. E.g. someone applies under the new rules with a B1 pass (although A1 is only needed) gets refused FLR 2 1/2 years later for having an expired certificate. Retakes English and passes with A1 so FLR granted. After another 2 1/2 years applies for ILR (and then citizenship) and uses the original B1 pass certificate from BULATS that was refused when they applied for FLR!!!!!!

[7by7]

I have received a reply, and it is good news.

Following the second query, is the reply my MP received from London and South East MP correspondence:

Thank you for your email correspondence of 30 December regarding the English language requirements for leave to remain and settlement applications.

I am sorry about the conflicting and incorrect information you have received regarding the expiry of English language tests. Our email of 16 December was incorrect. I can confirm that an expired A1 English language certificate can be provided for further leave to remain (LTR) in the UK as a spouse but not for LTR under the points based system.

An expired A1 or B1 certificate can also be provided for settlement and naturalisation applications. All certificates must be originals and issued by a valid provider as given on our list of providers which is subject to change.
(my emphasis)

Don't like that last bit about the list of approved providers being subject to change, so check the list prior to applying to make sure that your provider is still on it.

If they're not, then it looks as though the test will have to be taken again with a different provider.

[phomthai]

I have received a reply, and it is good news.

Following the second query, is the reply my MP received from London and South East MP correspondence:

Thank you for your email correspondence of 30 December regarding the English language requirements for leave to remain and settlement applications.

I am sorry about the conflicting and incorrect information you have received regarding the expiry of English language tests. Our email of 16 December was incorrect. I can confirm that an expired A1 English language certificate can be provided for further leave to remain (LTR) in the UK as a spouse but not for LTR under the points based system.

An expired A1 or B1 certificate can also be provided for settlement and naturalisation applications. All certificates must be originals and issued by a valid provider as given on our list of providers which is subject to change.

(my emphasis)

Don't like that last bit about the list of approved providers being subject to change, so check the list prior to applying to make sure that your provider is still on it.

If they're not, then it looks as though the test will have to be taken again with a different provider.

Good work 7by7, many thanks. My wife has the Bulats A1 so would be grateful if you could PM a copy of your MP's reply so that we may include it in with the FLR application.

Unfortunately my wife's shyness has caused her problems in learning English so not yet at B1 level so we find ourselves having to apply for FLR.

I've started checking the forms and info we need and isn't it great to see that UKBA's attention to detail remains as good as ever on the forms & guidance notes themselves....

From FLR(M) GUIDANCE NOTES Version 12/2013:

"2. QUALIFYING FOR AN EXTENSION TO STAY

...If you are applying for an extension of stay (rather than indefinite leave to remain) even though you have completed or are about to complete 2 years permitted stay as the partner of the same person, give the reason in section 4 of the application form and explain in more detail if necessary."

So on to the application form itself, FLR(M) Version 12/2013

"S E C T I O N 4 DEPENDENT CHILDREN WHO ARE APPLYING WITH YOU"

Actually the relevant section is section 2.3, tick the box next to the 2nd paragraph under the bold "Or"

"You require further leave to remain to obtain the relevant qualifications to meet the Knowledge of Language and Life in the UK (KOLL) requirements to apply for indefinite leave to remain."

Congrats UKBA, as if we don't have enough to worry about in trying to keep up to date with your rule & form changes....

[SirPaul]

Does anyone know how much it costs to take the A1 test at an approved centre in Thailand, and which centre is the cheapest? (cost in Thai Bhat please)

Or is it free!!

Just a note here on forms...

As a computer scientist, to make an accuarate 'form' that contains a great deal of information is very difficult. Like a computer program, the more complexity involved the more prone to bugs. Long forms are open to such bugs as they try to link pieces of informaton together which in itself can give rise to further unknown problems. Thus such forms prove to be very difficult and sometimes near to impossible to fill in correctly. Like a computer program, a long form needs testing - now we go into the field of black-box and white-box testing. At this stage all I can say is best to get a book out on testing...Result, anyone who designs a long form really does not know what they are doing in sense of trying to obtain relevant information from a 'real-world' situation.

Edited January 3, 2014 by SirPaul

[durhamboy]

I have received a reply, and it is good news.

Following the second query, is the reply my MP received from London and South East MP correspondence:

Thank you for your email correspondence of 30 December regarding the English language requirements for leave to remain and settlement applications.

I am sorry about the conflicting and incorrect information you have received regarding the expiry of English language tests. Our email of 16 December was incorrect. I can confirm that an expired A1 English language certificate can be provided for further leave to remain (LTR) in the UK as a spouse but not for LTR under the points based system.

An expired A1 or B1 certificate can also be provided for settlement and naturalisation applications. All certificates must be originals and issued by a valid provider as given on our list of providers which is subject to change.

(my emphasis)

Don't like that last bit about the list of approved providers being subject to change, so check the list prior to applying to make sure that your provider is still on it.

If they're not, then it looks as though the test will have to be taken again with a different provider.

7 by 7 - thank you very much for this and it is very good news. It only took me a year to finally get a sensible answer from UKV&I (via your MP)!!!!!!!!! I really don't think they know what they are doing. As with Phomthai could you also PM me a full copy of the letter - thanks. Regarding the last point about approved providers being subject to change you may recall about 18 months ago someone in this forum had a big problem in that they had passed the Test with an approved test centre in Pattaya and then subsequently the test centres accreditation was withdrawn and UKBA refused to extend the visa (believe it may have been a fiancée based visa). I don't know the outcome of that particular case but it is something people must be wary of when applying for FLR, ILR or visa extensions and check if their original test centre is still approved. Personally I think this is grossly unfair and small minded of UKV&I as they can reject previously bona fide certificates that they themselves accepted and it is totally out of the control of the applicant if a test centre is "struck off"

[durhamboy]

Does anyone know how much it costs to take the A1 test at an approved centre in Thailand, and which centre is the cheapest? (cost in Thai Bhat please)

Or is it free!!

I think there are only 3 approved test companies in Thailand (with approx. costs) :-

1. TOEIC (run by CPA) - c.B5000

2. BULATS (run by Vantage Siam) - c.B7000 + they do an optional 3 day intensive training specifically on exam technique for c. B8000.

3. Pearsons c. 10,000 - sorry I don't know much about this one.

All 3 are located in Bangkok and I think TOEIC also has a centre in Chiang Mai - but please check.

My personal advice would be to bite the bullet and go for BULATS with tuition. My wife tried TOEIC at first but failed - more for logistical reasons than poor English! TOEIC is a zoo whereas BULATS do give personalised treatment and try to ensure a pass. Sometimes I think TOEIC don't care about failures because it means a retake and more income.

In all it cost me about B25,000 to get my wife through this and in our case it was the biggest hurdle in our entire visa process. It slightly annoys me when some people say that if you can hold a simple conversation in English then there should be no problem. It should be like that but, in practice, it most certainly isn't.

Nothing is free but I'm sure you know that anyway!

[7by7]

Pedantic point.

Test providers in Thailand are:

PEARSON
Pearson Professional Center, Bangkok Business Building Level 10, Unit 10-10 54, Thanon Sukhumvit Soi 21, Bangkok Thailand, 10110

TOEIC
Center for Professional Assessment - Bangkok Suite 1907, Bangkok Business Building 54 Asoke Road, Sukhumvit 21 Bangkok 10110 Thailand +66 (0) 2260 7061 +66 (0) 22664 3122

Center for Professional Assessment - Chiang Mai Nawarat Building 3rd Floor Kaeo Nawarat Soi 3 Amphur Muang Chiangmai 50000 Thailand

BULATS
Vantage Siam Co. Ltd. 65/213 Chamnan Phenjati Building, 25th Floor, Rama 9 Road, Huay Kwang, Bangkok. 10310

That these are the only people offering UKV&I approved tests is no fault of UKV&I. Anyone who wishes can open a language school offering tests from any approved provider; although I suspect that they would also need to provide some evidence of the school's competence and professionalism as well.

Tuition and test fees are also set by the school, not UKV&I.

[durhamboy]

I think we disagree on the point about it not being UKV&I's fault that these are the only tests available in Thailand - and similarly in many other countries.

In my opinion the Government should have designed a specific test for visa purposes instead of just "piggy-backing" on existing tests that were designed for business and training purposes and include elements (reading and writing) that must be taken but not passed. Also to pass Speaking the candidate must READ some of the questions even though any proficiency in reading is not a visa requirement!!!!!

The purpose of the English test was that everyone should be able to hold a simple conversation in English. Fine, I think most of us agree with this objective (although that doesn't quite square with letting the whole of Romania & Bulgaria amongst others having the right to live in the UK with no English qualification whatsoever!) - so that being the case why do the Government/UKV&I make people take tests that are far in excess of that requirement?

Design a simple standard uniform test that fits the objectives and tell the test providers to use it. Then we will all know where we stand.

[7by7]

These are internationally recognised qualifications, and I see no reason for not using them nor any need for the government to design their own test which to be fit for purpose would be virtually identical to tests already available.

It is, I agree, unreasonable to expect candidates to take, and pay for, unnecessary reading and writing tests; but that is the fault of the providers in Thailand. Many test centres in the UK allow candidates to take just speaking and listening; I know personally someone who took such a test in the UK whilst here as a visitor before returning home and using it for her settlement application. There was also a post on here a while back from someone whose wife had done the same.

I don't know about other countries.

Place the blame where it lies, with the test providers in Thailand, not the government nor UKV&I.

[durhamboy]

Sorry 7 by 7 but I think you are missing the point.

It is the Government that decided it wanted English Tests but did not want to go to the expense of designing them and rolling them out. They decided to use the tests of existing providers and they do not really suit the objectives.

Why do you blame the test providers who have been doing these tests for many years and to meet a variety of objectives? e.g. used by multinational companies in training staff. Do you expect them to change their tests and just tailor them to UK Government requirements? Of course they are not going to do that. It would be commercially unrealistic and unfair to their existing clients.

HMG wanted these tests so it is they that bear the responsibility (and blame) when the tests they approve are riddled with anomalies and unfairness. These tests were never designed for visa purposes so it is a shambles caused by HMG and no one else.

[7by7]

I blame the test providers in Thailand because, unlike their colleagues in the UK, they insist that candidates pay to take two test which they do not need.

Yes, they have been providing these tests, where all four elements are either required or desired, for business people and similar for years. But I can see no reason why they cannot provide just speaking and listening tests which are less business orientated for spouse/partner visa candidates.

Just as their colleagues in the UK do.

But I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

[SirPaul]

Can the A1 test be taken in the UK and then used in a settlement visa application?

My worry here is that such a pass would not have come from an accredited testing centre in Thailand.

[durhamboy]

Sir Paul - as I understand it from your previous post (#21) you and your wife live in Pattaya so surely it would make sense to take the test in Thailand. As we now know there is no problem with the expiry date. The only possible problem which you alluded to is that an accredited test centre may subsequently be "struck off". This did happen with, ironically, one in Pattaya and some people did get a problem with their FLRs etc although I don't know what was the outcome - outrageous that someone can be denied FLR because a test centre is no longer accredited AFTER they passed the test. However, thankfully this situation is exceptionally rare - only once to my knowledge and happened in the early days of the test. I suspect there were some shenanigans going on at the test centre in question.

Currently there are only 3 approved testing companies in Thailand - CPA, Vantage & Pearsons - who are all reputable as far as I know.

I suppose it would be possible to take the test in the UK if your wife came on a visit visa.

[SirPaul]

Would a test taken in the UK be valid as it is not an approved centre in Thailand.

[durhamboy]

I don't think it actually matters where you take the test

[ThaiVisaExpress]

We are awaiting an updated reply as we have a client applying for indefinite leave to remain she has a B1 but it was 2 years old in February.