Electrics for new house-- can it be explained in three year old child's terms?

[FACTOR]

Hello everyone. Thanks to everyone who provided useful info regarding building a fence. Now that I've got my head around that, I'd like to move on to electricity, and borrowing from Sophon's title on the DYI Housing sub-forum, I'd like to ask for some basic advice. I'm not even sure of all the questions I should be asking, so I'm all ears. I know there might be some eyeball rolling, because I know there are some real professionals on this forum, but I won't be offended. I've looked at other postings, particularly Sophon's, but I'd still like to ask some basis questions. To quote Denzel Washington in the movie Philadelphia "talk to me like I'm a three year old". Here goes:

1. Copper wire vs. aluminium: I've already heard from Rotary that copper is better and I've done some reading up on that and I'm convinced it is indeed superior to aluminium. But it is more expensive, right? How much more expensive? 25%, 50%, 100%? Is the extra cost worth it?

By the way, I'm building a wooden house, so I am concerned about fire safety (more about that later). I understand copper is safer. Right?

2. How much electricity do we need in the house? (is that how you phrase the question?) Is 60 AMPS sufficient?

Our house will be approximately 140 sq metres (70 sq m footprint). Upstairs will be mostly wood, downstairs will be mostly cement and bricks. Upstairs will be mostly one big space for sleeping, living and office work-- approx 50 sq metres of open space. Two adults and one small child will live in the house. Often there will be friends or family members staying in the two downstairs small bedrooms. Downstairs will be about 50 sq metres of open-air space (ie. no walls) -- traditional housing design style -- and approx 20 metres of enclosed space -- two small bedrooms, small bathroom and kitchen.

Big appliances will include one AC, water pump, washing machine. Smaller stuff will be the basic lamps, iron, laptop, electric kettle, blender, rice cooker, fans.( Probably cook with gas.)

3. How many circuits do you think I need? Should I have one dedicated circuit for the AC? And one for the water pump?

Are circuits designed for varying strengths of electricity flowing through them? E.g. will the circuit for the AC have more juice flowing through it than the circuit for, say, the small appliances?

4. What about cable thickness? How thick should the cables be for the different circuits? I know Sophon asked this question on his post, so sorry for the repetition.

5. Grounding. Is that the same as Earthing? Should everything be grounded? What is the purpose of grounding? How are different things grounded?

6. Solar power. What do you think about solar panels for the small stuff like lamps, power points, laptop, etc...? I've heard that solar is not good enough for big items like ACs etc... . Any general thoughts about solar? Worth the cost?

7. Safety. We are building a house made from wood we dismantled from an older house. The 12 posts are about 60 years old and hand cut. The exterior walls will be made from the old refurbished wood. For the interior walls, we will use some new wood panelling material that looks like wood (pretty modern stuff); at this point I'm not 100% sure what it will be; still gotta work on that. In the hollow space between the outside wall (the old wood) and the inside wall (the new stuff) we will put some insulation.

How can make sure the electrics are as safe as possible? Back to the copper wire: that's safer, right? Any other tips on safety?

8. What about breakers? They are in the "distribution board", right? How can I make sure I install a state of the art, top quality one?

9. Any tips on a water pump? I want good water pressure in the shower.

Do you have any other points I should consider about basic household electricity?

Thank you very much. I know I've asked for a lot of information so I appreciate any information or insights that you can provide.

[Gonsalviz]

If it could be explained on a 3 year old's terms, Thais would get it but they don't.

[sotsira]

Ok, first thing you'll need is a safe-T-cut distribution board with an RCBO

built in for complete safety on all your circuits.

Like the one's in the picture below:

Depending on how many circuits you will want, will determine which board you need 4,6,8, or 10.

6 or 8 are the most common.

Remember that RCBO protected boards will offer full safety on short circuitry that can result in starting fires.

[dieter1]

Gonsalviz is right !

your question is something like: I want buy and fly a jet-plane. Could you please explain it to me in three years old child terms...

Your questions are ok, but what you need is a full design for electric for a full house/building. This can can not be done by an 3 years old.

Your question shows, that your understanding is not enough for this planing!

You need a professional electrician! for doing this. I would suggest some kind of farlang/ european/US etc. ( even, if a Thai would understand what to do, chance is small, he could discuss it with you)

and yes, copper is much better !

and yes, you should use RCBO for the whole(!) building

Insulation of your walls? What kind of material are you planing to use?

You will need to have a water barrier! (Not for rain water!) Because of the different temperature inside and outside!Especially, if you use wooden outside walls...

Also for this planing, you need an professional architect or engineer ...

Edited November 22, 2013 by dieter1

[wayned]

1. Copper is better than aluminum, but for the run from the meter to your CU I would use aluminum especially if it is a long run (cost)., copper in the house.

2. I would have the electric company fit a 15/45 meter.

3. Use the 10 circuit CU as pictured above. More expensive and you might not need all of the circuits, but it's nice to have room for expansion for future additions

4. I would use 2.5mm, three wire, sheathed cable for the entire house. You could get by a little cheaper using smaller cable for the lights, but I wire each room, including lights , on one breaker (American way).

5. You should drive a 2 meter copper or copper clad rod into the ground and connect that to the "earth" terminal block in the CU. The ground block and the earth terminal block in the CU should be connected. All electric plugs should be three pin grounded type. Grounding the light fixtures is not necessary in my opinion but would be safer.

6. Not familiar with solar power.

7. Running the sheathed cable inside the wall without conduit is safe. Unless you happen to drill into it later when mounting something on the wall. All US houses are built this way without any conduit inside the wall and the cable is not secured to any of the studs.

8. Some of the CU units as pictured above come fully populated with state of the art breakers. I used a Square D box and populated it myself as I have varying power requirements

9. I use a Mitsubishi Wp-255 at both my town house in Bangkok, 2 story, and my 2 houses here, 1 story, connected to the same pump, and have plenty of pressure.

Any outside switches/outlets should be installed in waterproof boxes and exposed wire runs in conduit. As far as insulation, I would use R6 in the ceiling and at lest R4(R6 would be better) in the walls with a vapor barrier between the outside wall and the insulalion.

This is my opinion and I'm sure that some will be along shortly to correct me and tell me that I'm FOS but that's why this is a "social forum"! Good luck.

Edited November 22, 2013 by wayned

[FACTOR]

Hi. I was just trying to be lighthearted when I asked for it "in terms for a three year old". Almost immediately after posting I thought that might backfire and looked for a way to edit my OP. Is there not a way to do that?

I am not doing this on my own. I'm having a local guy do it but I want to be as informed as possible about household electrics so I can keep an eye on the guy and then know what is going into my house.

Anyway, thanks for some good advice. Wayned, thanks for the detailed point by point advice. Sotsira, thanks for the advice about the Safe-t cut distribution board.

I'd love to hear more opinions.

And I'd like to find out if I can edit my OP-- just take out the "... three year old child... " bit. How about "can it be explained in terms for a 59 year old guy who knows very little about household electricity"?

Thanks.

[keeniau96]

+1 for Wayned except point 7. Having built four large houses in Arizona I am familiar with wiring and know that the code requires cables to be anchored nor more than 4 feet apart, and they must be anchored within 8" of a box (got caught on this one by inspector). My houses here have the cables run through the brick walls using the cut and chip groove with yellow poly conduit inside then cemented over. Never had any wooden wall installations here.

[wayned]

In the US it depends on the state. There are 50 states and 50 different residential electrical codes. The only houses that I built in the US were wood frame construction with either brick or stucco veneer in both California and Mississippi, but a long time ago, and no such anchoring was required. My electricians license was issued In Mississippi but not good in California so I had to hire a licensed one. I never built a block house in the US. If the wires inside the wall are not anchored it is easier to remove or modify the installation at a later date.

The houses that I have built here are block, but all the wires run in channels that are on the exterior of the wall. If I were to run wire in the block wall and render over iy , I would use conduit.

[FACTOR]

Wayned, Thanks for the insights about where to run wiring--inside or outside the wall. I think I'm going to go with running it outside so that it is easier to modify later if necessary.

Thanks.

[wayned]

If you are going to run the electric outside of the wall, I would use the plastic/vinyl wire channels that have the snap on covers. They are available in different sizes, 1,2,3, and more wires, are easy to install and can be painted to match the walls that they are attached to and easily modified in the futrure. The Thai way with the metal wire clips every 10cm is a pain to install, a real pain to modify and looks like crap!

[sotsira]

OP, regarding your point 3.

The A/C should be on a dedicated circuit using a 32A breaker

and better to use 4mm live & neutral wires with 2.5mm earth.

The same also applies with hot water heaters over 3kw power.

The lights and switches would be better fed with 1.5mm wires as it's cheaper and easier to

wire up switch boxes using the thinner wires.

Everything else can be fed with 2.5mm wires as stated by wayned.

An example of using different dedicated circuits would be as follows:

1. Kitchen sockets.

2. Inside lights.

3. outside lights.

4. wall sockets.

5. A/C

6. Water heater.

7. Water pump.

[FACTOR]

If you are going to run the electric outside of the wall, I would use the plastic/vinyl wire channels that have the snap on covers. They are available in different sizes, 1,2,3, and more wires, are easy to install and can be painted to match the walls that they are attached to and easily modified in the futrure. The Thai way with the metal wire clips every 10cm is a pain to install, a real pain to modify and looks like crap!

I'll do that. Thanks.

[FACTOR]

OP, regarding your point 3.

The A/C should be on a dedicated circuit using a 32A breaker

and better to use 4mm live & neutral wires with 2.5mm earth.

The same also applies with hot water heaters over 3kw power.

The lights and switches would be better fed with 1.5mm wires as it's cheaper and easier to

wire up switch boxes using the thinner wires.

Everything else can be fed with 2.5mm wires as stated by wayned.

An example of using different dedicated circuits would be as follows:

1. Kitchen sockets.

2. Inside lights.

3. outside lights.

4. wall sockets.

5. A/C

6. Water heater.

7. Water pump.

Sotsira, Thanks for the advice. So 4mm wire for the AC and 2.5 mm for everything else. I might go with 2.5 mm wires for the lights and switches. I don't want to cut corners on the electrical wiring just to save a few baht. I'm building a wooden house, so safety is important.

[sotsira]

It's perfectly safe to use 1.5mm for the light circuits,(some even use 1mm)

the main advantage being that the light circuit can sometime require multiple wires

when using multi switch boxes, and 2or3 way switching.

When this is the case, 2.5mm will be very difficult to use and fit inside the boxes.

For example:

In a room that has 2 entrance ways you will need light switches at both entrances, hence

additional wires in the circuit and switch boxes.

Same goes for bedroom where it's convieniant to have a switch at the door way and another at the

bedside.

[FACTOR]

It's perfectly safe to use 1.5mm for the light circuits,(some even use 1mm)

the main advantage being that the light circuit can sometime require multiple wires

when using multi switch boxes, and 2or3 way switching.

When this is the case, 2.5mm will be very difficult to use and fit inside the boxes.

For example:

In a room that has 2 entrance ways you will need light switches at both entrances, hence

additional wires in the circuit and switch boxes.

Same goes for bedroom where it's convieniant to have a switch at the door way and another at the

bedside.

Aha...! Got it. Good point about the room with two entrance ways or the bedroom where I might want to have two switches, one at the door and one at the bedside.

Thanks. This is the kind of discussion I need to be having with you guys now, who speak my own language. Because later I need to have some basic idea of what's going on when I'm trying to communicate with the local guy who's going to do the wiring so I can make sure it's being done properly, or as properly as I can hope for.

Can I just try to clarify and confirm something about grounding? So if I drive a two meter copper stake into the ground and hook it up to the CU on the "earth" circuit, should that ground the whole system? The whole house? Does my question make sense?

Sorry if these questions are very basic and uniformed; Really, there are other areas where I am expert; household electricity is not one of them. Maybe one day I can help you guys out in my field of expertise.

I'm just trying to inform and educate myself as a consumer.

[sotsira]

When it comes to grounding, you may want to research it using google,

as there are different methods used, depending on ground soil and building

construction used, with different rod lengths.

Also you need to consider grounding for lightning strikes which is separate to

grounding the consumer unit and house electrics.

You could also send a pm to "Crossy" who's pretty knowledgable on these matters.

[MichaelSong]

- The two meter copper stake should be enough to ground the whole system. Better to plant it in soil that is more or less moist the whole year, like close to a water well.

- Make sure you have a seperate grounded wire available in the area where you will put appliances like fridges, washing machines : some need to be grounded by a seperate wire, meaning there is no ground wire in the plug.

- I would add a dedicated circuit for the sockets outside or garage (or any socket that might get humid) ... or invaded by those micro-ants

Edited November 23, 2013 by MichaelSong

[Crossy]

Some pretty good advice above

Read these pages http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/

Give this document to your sparks http://www.crossy.co.uk/Handy%20Files/groundwire.pdf

[FACTOR]

Some pretty good advice above

Read these pages http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/

Give this document to your sparks http://www.crossy.co.uk/Handy%20Files/groundwire.pdf

Crossy, I was hoping you'd chime in sooner or later. Thank you very, very much for the links and documents.

Yes, I've got some good advice from the other guys, particularly about cable thickness, grounding, number of circuits needed and so on.

Again, I do not know anything (well, ok, I know very little) about household electrics. This is the first time I've built a house and I'm trying to get it right.

Thanks again.

factor

[FACTOR]

Some pretty good advice above

Read these pages http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/

Give this document to your sparks http://www.crossy.co.uk/Handy%20Files/groundwire.pdf

Crossy, I was hoping you'd chime in sooner or later. Thank you very, very much for the links and documents.

Yes, I've got some good advice from the other guys, particularly about cable thickness, grounding, number of circuits needed and so on.

Again, I do not know anything (well, ok, I know very little) about household electrics. This is the first time I've built a house and I'm trying to get it right.

Thanks again.

factor

Just to clarify my quote, "this is the first time I've built a house...", at the risk of stating the obvious, I am not actually building the house. I am having it built, and my lovely wife is working very hard too to oversee things, buying materials etc... and going to the work site every day, and I want to be as well informed as possible about house construction, particularly electrics, so I can keep an eye on things, if you know what I mean.

Thanks.