Thai political protests turn violent, one dead

[Biscuit22]

Two new video clips:

Is a video phone clip showing armed thugs and running students/public and clear, close, gunshots. Ends with a montage of injured and a disturbing picture of the dead student (sorry about that - but you have been warned).

Channel 7 report showing armed men getting off a bus and helping others get clear - but (if you understand Thai) says that men in black went to the stadium and fired at students.

Becoming more and more apparent that this has all been planned since before today, and all paid for with Thaksin's blood money. Jutaporn should be instantly arrested and executed for crimes against the people.

[Thai at Heart]

Thailand is just like the Village Idiot Merry go Round..."choose your ride"..."any colour will do"..."your turn will come around". And people have the audacity to climb into the Army. They should step in right now. Deal for good to the major protagonists like Thaksin, Suthep and others. The rest they should then round up, lock them into Kindergarten with wipe boards and crayons with the assistance of the knowledge of the top 3 or 4 world democracies, for how ever long it takes them as a group to work out what democracy is and how they are going to implement it.

They have pushed it to the point that the army is completely entitled to step in.

The police won't do it, so who is going to reestablish law and order on the streets.

[Emptyset]

It's borderline retarded. Spend millions bussing in "red shirts" as a demonstration of support for the current despots ru(i)nning the show, then allow it all to be massively overshadowed by shooting and killing students from a nearby university who dare oppose your presence.

The red/Thaksin cheerleaders on this forum - you clearly have your work cut out.

Partisans are going to play this for proganda, though whether you can really call it propaganda when it's so driven by hatred and blindness that people actually believe it (propaganda is usually more cynical)... I don't see how your post gets away from that. I think it's part of it. Just don't see how you can be so black and white about this and point the finger at reds alone. Can't you see that this is a nasty and childish game that neither side is going to win?

The problem with this argument is that the Reds intentionally bussed in thousands of people and stood on stage, yet again, provoking to violence and the killing of Suthep. Until this point there has been silly and even illegal moves, such as invading government offices, and violating the ISA, but no violence. For what reason other than to violently counter the protestors are the Reds here? It was provocative and stupid - it was in direct violation of the ISA also and yet they continued to bus them in. As with many crimes, guilt can be arrived out simply by showing that it could not have happened without the initial action - that is, the Reds by being in Bangkok en masse have caused the escalation and as provocateur they must be guilty of any crime that results from that - on either side. Of course, it could be said that it would not have happened if the demonstrators were not there either - however they were already there (committing their own crimes), so their intentions can not be to confront the Reds; unlike the reverse.

I haven't heard anything about threats to kill Suthep from the stage except from social media sources that I don't altogether trust, so I'll stay clear of that for now. Even if it's true, I doubt it had anything to do with this. Why shouldn't reds be able to come to Bangkok and assemble peacefully in a stadium without being attacked by students? What about the democratic right to assemble that people were going on about in the other thread? There were very few reds inside the stadium involved apparently, it was mostly local reds fighting with the students. Needless to say, for what it's worth, I completely condemn the actions of those responsible for shootings, but let's bear in mind vast majority on both sides have been completely peaceful. Provocateurs were waiting in the wings for an opportunity and it's very likely that some of the shooting wasn't from genuine protesters, but rather from those looking to stir the pot.

Also, the reds have been in the stadium for several days, RU students decided this afternoon to confront them. So I don't buy your argument about students being there first. Both sides looking to score points, claim heroes and martyrs, thing to do now is step back for a minute...

[Thai at Heart]

The problem isn't the grass roots supporters it is the leaders. They have too much invested and too much too lose to let anything change.

[Biscuit22]

It's borderline retarded. Spend millions bussing in "red shirts" as a demonstration of support for the current despots ru(i)nning the show, then allow it all to be massively overshadowed by shooting and killing students from a nearby university who dare oppose your presence.

The red/Thaksin cheerleaders on this forum - you clearly have your work cut out.

Partisans are going to play this for proganda, though whether you can really call it propaganda when it's so driven by hatred and blindness that people actually believe it (propaganda is usually more cynical)... I don't see how your post gets away from that. I think it's part of it. Just don't see how you can be so black and white about this and point the finger at reds alone. Can't you see that this is a nasty and childish game that neither side is going to win?

The problem with this argument is that the Reds intentionally bussed in thousands of people and stood on stage, yet again, provoking to violence and the killing of Suthep. Until this point there has been silly and even illegal moves, such as invading government offices, and violating the ISA, but no violence. For what reason other than to violently counter the protestors are the Reds here? It was provocative and stupid - it was in direct violation of the ISA also and yet they continued to bus them in. As with many crimes, guilt can be arrived out simply by showing that it could not have happened without the initial action - that is, the Reds by being in Bangkok en masse have caused the escalation and as provocateur they must be guilty of any crime that results from that - on either side. Of course, it could be said that it would not have happened if the demonstrators were not there either - however they were already there (committing their own crimes), so their intentions can not be to confront the Reds; unlike the reverse.

I haven't heard anything about threats to kill Suthep from the stage except from social media sources that I don't altogether trust, so I'll stay clear of that for now. Even if it's true, I doubt it had anything to do with this. Why shouldn't reds be able to come to Bangkok and assemble peacefully in a stadium without being attacked by students? What about the democratic right to assemble that people were going on about in the other thread? There were very few reds inside the stadium involved apparently, it was mostly local reds fighting with the students. Needless to say, for what it's worth, I completely condemn the actions of those responsible for shootings, but let's bear in mind vast majority on both sides have been completely peaceful. Provocateurs were waiting in the wings for an opportunity and it's very likely that some of the shooting wasn't from genuine protesters, but rather from those looking to stir the pot.

Also, the reds have been in the stadium for several days, RU students decided this afternoon to confront them. So I don't buy your argument about students being there first. Both sides looking to score points, claim heroes and martyrs, thing to do now is step back for a minute...

No.... The students came to protect their uni after Friday night getting reports that the reds were planning to burn it down. The GF showed me on facebook on red shirt facebook pages telling them to gather Saturday at the stadium and we will burn the uni. That is why they came.

One thing is for sure, many are making their way to the uni from all over Bangkok and from outside Bangkok to defend the students.

The reds had better leave early, I think there is going to be a total meltdown.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Biscuit22

[wolf5370]

I don't have all the details, but whenever you have two protests going on for opposite sides and you do not keep them apart...

When *who* does not keep them apart?

(Edit - you do realise that the Education Minister and the Interior Minister - responsible for the police - were on stage supporting the red movement not far from where this shooting of a student, allegedly by the Thaksin-aligned guys highlighted above, occurred?)

...and the Rector of the University called the police before the death, who told him it was "inconvenient" to come!

[Emptyset]

I would have blamed Yingluck if the amnesty passed, but the protest to stop them succeeded and there was no legitimate reason to change the protest into a pusch. At that point, the opposition did their job.... Once it became an attempt to overthrow the government using unconstitutional means - it lost it's legitimacy.

The old money has had it.. Enough is enough. The shinawatras must go. Thaksin finally blundered by believing that the red shirts would accept his amnesty bill. His duplicity and lack of principle finally caught up with him.

Solution is intractable whilst both sides keep insisting the other must go. You're not talking about just the old money, or just Thaksin, but potentially millions of people. That's the problem.

[Biscuit22]

I don't have all the details, but whenever you have two protests going on for opposite sides and you do not keep them apart...

When *who* does not keep them apart?

(Edit - you do realise that the Education Minister and the Interior Minister - responsible for the police - were on stage supporting the red movement not far from where this shooting of a student, allegedly by the Thaksin-aligned guys highlighted above, occurred?)

...and the Rector of the University called the police before the death, who told him it was "inconvenient" to come!

Yes, when the police take sides, then the army have no choice, and they are not on the side of Thaksin, too many in the top ranks that are firmly from the people. Yingluck may have been able to parachute a small handful into the top brass to control them, but that isn't enough. There are plenty still there that can not be controlled.

If the police don't do their job to protect people and are instead seen as 'assisting' which they are doing. Then I can assure everyone that things are already being spoken about in the top brass of the military.

If Thaksin has been successful in dividing the army, this could get very tricky indeed. Not only could all this end up in a civil war, there could be a infighting within the forces.

We could be on the brink of something very nasty.

This goes a lot further back than the first slapping in the street. This goes right back months if not years to Thaksin and his master plan to divide and conquer. It is just now unfolding. The stage has been set long ago, the play has really only just started.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Biscuit22

[Publicus]

Thailand is just like the Village Idiot Merry go Round..."choose your ride"..."any colour will do"..."your turn will come around". And people have the audacity to climb into the Army. They should step in right now. Deal for good to the major protagonists like Thaksin, Suthep and others. The rest they should then round up, lock them into Kindergarten with wipe boards and crayons with the assistance of the knowledge of the top 3 or 4 world democracies, for how ever long it takes them as a group to work out what democracy is and how they are going to implement it.

The post just doesn't have a democratic ring to it.

[Thai at Heart]

I would have blamed Yingluck if the amnesty passed, but the protest to stop them succeeded and there was no legitimate reason to change the protest into a pusch. At that point, the opposition did their job.... Once it became an attempt to overthrow the government using unconstitutional means - it lost it's legitimacy.

The old money has had it.. Enough is enough. The shinawatras must go. Thaksin finally blundered by believing that the red shirts would accept his amnesty bill. His duplicity and lack of principle finally caught up with him.

Solution is intractable whilst both sides keep insisting the other must go. You're not talking about just the old money, or just Thaksin, but potentially millions of people. That's the problem.

The reds well attempt to fight the army. That is going to be nasty but don't underestimate the possibility that many rural MPs might already be cr@pping themselves that they get their names on the list to be arrested...

They will turn in a trice.

[Emptyset]

It's borderline retarded. Spend millions bussing in "red shirts" as a demonstration of support for the current despots ru(i)nning the show, then allow it all to be massively overshadowed by shooting and killing students from a nearby university who dare oppose your presence.

The red/Thaksin cheerleaders on this forum - you clearly have your work cut out.

Partisans are going to play this for proganda, though whether you can really call it propaganda when it's so driven by hatred and blindness that people actually believe it (propaganda is usually more cynical)... I don't see how your post gets away from that. I think it's part of it. Just don't see how you can be so black and white about this and point the finger at reds alone. Can't you see that this is a nasty and childish game that neither side is going to win?

blah blah blah

If you want to see examples of "nasty and childish" games, view the video footage from the events of tonight. Up until now the anti-govt rallies have by and large been peaceful. Reds head into town and conduct themselves in a way we're all too familiar with right now.

So carry on with your (rather average) attempts at character assassination. You clearly don't have much else.

I wasn't having a go at you. I was describing the conflict as a whole as a 'nasty and childish game'. Don't see why this has to get personal. I am thoroughly disgusted by the violence, but unlike you, who sees a set one set of thugs working for a 'despot' and shooting innocent middle class students, all I see in these videos is two sets of people bent on violence. And that gets no one anywhere. There'll be recriminations, accusations, misinformation, the whole bit, but it won't change the wider conflict because both sides will believe what they want to believe without ever questioning themselves. This has been amply demonstrated on this thread already.

[Emptyset]

Solution is intractable whilst both sides keep insisting the other must go. You're not talking about just the old money, or just Thaksin, but potentially millions of people. That's the problem.

The reds well attempt to fight the army. That is going to be nasty but don't underestimate the possibility that many rural MPs might already be cr@pping themselves that they get their names on the list to be arrested...

They will turn in a trice.

So you're saying they'll try to cut a deal with reds with a mixture of coercion and bribe, backed up by force if necessary? Yes, that could happen. But I still hope there's a way out of this that doesn't involve such drastic measures, because I think that may well lead to the sort of protracted and vicious conflict which has only been seen before in Thailand in the Deep South and during the communist insurgency.

[Thai at Heart]

Solution is intractable whilst both sides keep insisting the other must go. You're not talking about just the old money, or just Thaksin, but potentially millions of people. That's the problem.

The reds well attempt to fight the army. That is going to be nasty but don't underestimate the possibility that many rural MPs might already be cr@pping themselves that they get their names on the list to be arrested...

They will turn in a trice.

So you're saying they'll try to cut a deal with reds with a mixture of coercion and bribe, backed up by force if necessary? Yes, that could happen. But I still hope there's a way out of this that doesn't involve such drastic measures, because I think that may well lead to the sort of protracted and vicious conflict which has only been seen before in Thailand in the Deep South and during the communist insurgency.

They won't stop until they get the shinawatras out. That is the end they want.

How else to get it without the army stepping in?

[Biscuit22]

Masked red shirt shooter emptied his gun at the students and can be clearly seen tucking it back in his waistband.

Allegedly was taken at around 02.30.

The could not do it without guns and they know it. The students were rushing them and pushing them back and the reds needed guns to make a counter push.

Sign of weak cowards.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Biscuit22

[wolf5370]

It's borderline retarded. Spend millions bussing in "red shirts" as a demonstration of support for the current despots ru(i)nning the show, then allow it all to be massively overshadowed by shooting and killing students from a nearby university who dare oppose your presence.

The red/Thaksin cheerleaders on this forum - you clearly have your work cut out.

Partisans are going to play this for proganda, though whether you can really call it propaganda when it's so driven by hatred and blindness that people actually believe it (propaganda is usually more cynical)... I don't see how your post gets away from that. I think it's part of it. Just don't see how you can be so black and white about this and point the finger at reds alone. Can't you see that this is a nasty and childish game that neither side is going to win?

The problem with this argument is that the Reds intentionally bussed in thousands of people and stood on stage, yet again, provoking to violence and the killing of Suthep. Until this point there has been silly and even illegal moves, such as invading government offices, and violating the ISA, but no violence. For what reason other than to violently counter the protestors are the Reds here? It was provocative and stupid - it was in direct violation of the ISA also and yet they continued to bus them in. As with many crimes, guilt can be arrived out simply by showing that it could not have happened without the initial action - that is, the Reds by being in Bangkok en masse have caused the escalation and as provocateur they must be guilty of any crime that results from that - on either side. Of course, it could be said that it would not have happened if the demonstrators were not there either - however they were already there (committing their own crimes), so their intentions can not be to confront the Reds; unlike the reverse.

I haven't heard anything about threats to kill Suthep from the stage except from social media sources that I don't altogether trust, so I'll stay clear of that for now. Even if it's true, I doubt it had anything to do with this. Why shouldn't reds be able to come to Bangkok and assemble peacefully in a stadium without being attacked by students? What about the democratic right to assemble that people were going on about in the other thread? There were very few reds inside the stadium involved apparently, it was mostly local reds fighting with the students. Needless to say, for what it's worth, I completely condemn the actions of those responsible for shootings, but let's bear in mind vast majority on both sides have been completely peaceful. Provocateurs were waiting in the wings for an opportunity and it's very likely that some of the shooting wasn't from genuine protesters, but rather from those looking to stir the pot.

Also, the reds have been in the stadium for several days, RU students decided this afternoon to confront them. So I don't buy your argument about students being there first. Both sides looking to score points, claim heroes and martyrs, thing to do now is step back for a minute...

There was a video clip somewhere here (too many threads and posts for me to locate it now) of Suthep being told (in his absence) that if he did not persist in 2 days they would kill him -there was also mention that a 5m baht bounty would be raised from Thaksin's son (though I doubt he knew of this pledge himself!) to be put on Sutheps head. Actual footage from the stadium of this being said.

The Reds were not in the stadium when the (so called) whites began their protests nor when Suthep first appointed himself their leader - it was alter the Reds were bussed in - very few came locally, so buses came from, further afield. This is what I meant by being there first. The protestors were there to protest - the Reds went there to protest what exactly? Pro-government - no one in their right mind could possibly believe this was the aim! Why wait 2 years and then only come when there are protestors? The only reason was to confront the whites - this was provocative regardless of the motives, but the tone of the speeches from onstage in the stadium shows there is a violent motive.

21:43: Arisman: " if Suthep-led protest doesn't stop, he will take the reds to stop them."

Yesterday: Nattawut: "If Suthep steps up his protest tomorrow, red nationwide will do likewise. Please get set people. "

Yesterday: Thida: "If this government can't control the situation, we will show them the real people's revolution."

[wolf5370]

It's borderline retarded. Spend millions bussing in "red shirts" as a demonstration of support for the current despots ru(i)nning the show, then allow it all to be massively overshadowed by shooting and killing students from a nearby university who dare oppose your presence.

The red/Thaksin cheerleaders on this forum - you clearly have your work cut out.

Partisans are going to play this for proganda, though whether you can really call it propaganda when it's so driven by hatred and blindness that people actually believe it (propaganda is usually more cynical)... I don't see how your post gets away from that. I think it's part of it. Just don't see how you can be so black and white about this and point the finger at reds alone. Can't you see that this is a nasty and childish game that neither side is going to win?

The problem with this argument is that the Reds intentionally bussed in thousands of people and stood on stage, yet again, provoking to violence and the killing of Suthep. Until this point there has been silly and even illegal moves, such as invading government offices, and violating the ISA, but no violence. For what reason other than to violently counter the protestors are the Reds here? It was provocative and stupid - it was in direct violation of the ISA also and yet they continued to bus them in. As with many crimes, guilt can be arrived out simply by showing that it could not have happened without the initial action - that is, the Reds by being in Bangkok en masse have caused the escalation and as provocateur they must be guilty of any crime that results from that - on either side. Of course, it could be said that it would not have happened if the demonstrators were not there either - however they were already there (committing their own crimes), so their intentions can not be to confront the Reds; unlike the reverse.

Thaksin is making his money in Dubai with short loans and 2% interest per day for the mainly Muslim business societies. Reminds me on the shady deal with Manchester City Club. Same deal. He must be a welcomed tool for them to keep troubles in Thailand alive.

I didn't think Muslims were allowed to claim or pay interest - hence those funny mortgages with fixed annual fees rather than interest at Muslim banks.

[F430murci]

Masked red shirt shooter emptied his gun at the students and can be clearly seen tucking it back in his waistband.

Allegedly was taken at around 02.30.

The could not do it without guns and they know it. The students were rushing them and pushing them back and the reds needed guns to make a counter push.

Sign of weak cowards.

Weak coward is one that sits behind a computer screen in the safety of his own house calling others cowards who are brave enough to venture out into the masses and stand up for what they believe.

[JFKTHAI]

OK... bit of a brainmelt there huh?

Your original point that I questioned was that you stated the current anti-government protestors was this:

...They bring yellow thugs from south thailand. You know the muslims terrorist, as some of you like to label them. And you wonder its turn nasty.

I asked you to back up this statement with evidence, I cannot spot you doing this in amongst the interesting formatting and stream of consciousness ranting, so I take it that you cannot do so?

Perhaps you should think twice about making statements that you cannot back up when someone pulls you up on them.

I'm not really willing to engage further with you. I asked you to back up the original statement with factual evidence or admit you made it up, yet it seems you decided instead to gloss over the fact that you even said it and take the opportunity to rant about your political views from a blinkered one-sided perspective in the manner of a drunk football fan - rather odd.

brainmelt?

what next? you gonna claims these facts did never happen? they never did make a coup, the red didnt win 5 times, how pity, how desillusional you are!

No it was just a quick sum up of what you are, i dont need to be a red supporter to call a parasite a parasite.

and cant you read properly? are you blinded by your own hate for Thaksin, that for 7 years you did block any legitimate PM to govern properly.

7 years that you put this country on their knee, because of your hate. You are a terrorist!

...They bring yellow thugs from south thailand. You know the muslims terrorist, as some of you like to label them. And you wonder its turn nasty.

It seems that also, you hate the truth... pretty sure that a lot of your violent hired yellow thugs from south are also muslim, and it seems now that you have a

problem with this!

Bender only one thing to tell you, you are nobody, you have no believe, no goal, and that is just your problem, at least some can see wrong and right, so go for your "democratic" elected government, Myanmar also have peoble choose there government, and Vietnam, and China..

But off cause you get money last time for your vote, so off cause it is for you the right government because they can pay you, then it is legal.

Because money can buy democratic that is the Thailand you like..

For the coup, who is the nr1. Leader in the military?...................

You not respect him?

Cum on if you can agan… you are typical looser my dear.

[Biscuit22]

Masked red shirt shooter emptied his gun at the students and can be clearly seen tucking it back in his waistband.

Allegedly was taken at around 02.30.

The could not do it without guns and they know it. The students were rushing them and pushing them back and the reds needed guns to make a counter push.

Sign of weak cowards.

Weak coward is one that sits behind a computer screen in the safety of his own house calling others cowards who are brave enough to venture out into the masses and stand up for what they believe.

The brave ones are the students protecting their uni against armed terrorists.., the cowards are the ones with the guns.

Do not even attempt to hail these thugs and weaklings as heroes.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Biscuit22

[wealth]

the shooters were most likely hired by some aides from the man in D. About a week ago I heard from a contact that the husband of a secretary for the man in D located in Asoke(lived currently in Ramkhamhaeng Soi 8 and now Soi ABAC, offers contracts(killers). The same alleged secretary is under investigation for fraud(land in Pattya valued at 5m) recently committed and sent on holiday for three months at least. The boss takes care her in meanwhile. The same secretary was sent to a certain country to write a thesis on health equipment for the man in D. Her dad's a gov officer in the South(was scheduled to arrive today). The alleged secretary told my contacts about the 2% interest/day loans in D.

The person she revealed the info about writing a thesis didn't know that the man from D runs hospitals here and he didn't believe first, but the man in D probably needed it for this business, - it made sense to me.

For those involved in investigation will be able to verify. Also by some friendly agents from a certain Embassy.

Once the truth is out in details the students will be back to the study rooms again and people will be set free. Enough is enough.

Helicopter is flying again and very low. The truth shall set you free ...

I rejoiced when I saw people leaving the venue, really. They made a very good impression, lovely and peaceful, but also with an expression like, what am I doing here? Stay save everyone. The spook will be over soon.

Edited November 30, 2013 by wealth

[Biscuit22]

BRAVE Red shirts standing up for what they believe.

reportedly now burning cars and shops and stealing food, beer and liquor.

Obviously their belief is that food and drink should be free, and they can wreck people's livelihoods at whim.

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

It has changed. It went from a protest rally to the beginning of holding a country hostage by occupying government buildings etc. until the duly elected government is forced out and replaced by a dictatorship. Whether it is an airport, or all government services - holding a country hostage is wrong.

The same tired, broken "we won an election" rhetoric.

Either the red shirts, or a policeman protecting the red shirts, shot a student dead tonight. When was the last in Thailand students were killed by hired hands of the government? Who will be to blame for putting Thailand on this same path *yet again* ?

We all know the answer to that, he lives in Dubai and got an evil hart

[F430murci]

Masked red shirt shooter emptied his gun at the students and can be clearly seen tucking it back in his waistband.

Allegedly was taken at around 02.30.

The could not do it without guns and they know it. The students were rushing them and pushing them back and the reds needed guns to make a counter push.

Sign of weak cowards.

Weak coward is one that sits behind a computer screen in the safety of his own house calling others cowards who are brave enough to venture out into the masses and stand up for what they believe.

The brave ones are the students protecting their uni against armed terrorists.., the cowards are the ones with the guns.

Do not even attempt to hail these thugs and weaklings as heroes.

I am not glorifying anyone. I just don't criticize and judge what I neither fully understand nor for a situation in which I don't have all of the facts. You sit from the safety of your home, behind a computer and judge people based on speculation, rumor and innuendo.

[Biscuit22]

Weak coward is one that sits behind a computer screen in the safety of his own house calling others cowards who are brave enough to venture out into the masses and stand up for what they believe.

The brave ones are the students protecting their uni against armed terrorists.., the cowards are the ones with the guns.

Do not even attempt to hail these thugs and weaklings as heroes.

I am not glorifying anyone. I just don't criticize and judge what I neither fully understand nor for a situation in which I don't have all of the facts. You sit from the safety of your home, behind a computer and judge people based on speculation, rumor and innuendo.

It's a debate.

There are plenty of images and videos that are pretty conclusive. Don't judge me as you are doing the exact same thing you are whinging about.

That is called hypocrisy.

[wolf5370]

Well if Sooty and Sweep did not give the orders who did. The army answers to the government of the day. The government gives the ok after consulting with army chiefs before any action is taken. That government was run by Abhisit and Suthep in charge of the CRES

But the DSI case is based on the presumption that they were acting as individuals, not as members of the government.

Even someone as thick as you realises that is a farcical presumption, but it is needed because as office holders they are immune from prosecution.

Actually as office holders they are not immune to prosecution after their MP status is up. Thaksin was an office holder when he committed the crime he was convicted of.

What it means is that their orders will (if given at all) have to be proven wrongful in the situation. They will also have to be tried in the court for political office holders. They are as safe as can be even when the current charges against them are dropped. There is just far too much evidence that they gave warning, they were facing an armed insurrection etc .. and there will obviously be no orders anywere telling the army to fire on anyone unarmed.

Indeed, in fact it is why they had to wait until the 6th of December (even as individuals they can't be prosecuted until the end of session - (5th - 21st December). So the reason for prosecuting them individually was purely for jurisdictional reasons - both judiciary and law department. It is also an absurd notion - if you think they are guilty of abusing their power whilst in office and therefore murder by way of illegitimate order to open fire - then try them in that capacity. It only makes sense to try them as individual if they personally called up a mate on the front line and said, "shoot the bastards" or pulled the trigger themselves.

Both Abhisit and Suthep attended the police ro receive and acknowledge the charges, both denied the pressure to take the amnesty (actively fighting against it), both have made no move to circumvent the law or make do runner to China/UK/USA/Montenegro/Cambodia/UAE. Neither look particularly worried - why? Because if there was any evidence it would have been leaked and used against them well before now - they know the truth of the matter and what evidence there could (or could not) conceivably be. They will also be able to open things up in that court room that they would not normally be able to due to strict laws of liable - if they are under oath and given a direct question, unless there is very special circumstances (like national security) then they can safely give the truth - and let all those reporters from around the world do what they will with it. A lot of coalition and Red leaders (remember a lot of meeting were held behind closed doors) may be hurt with things said and done coming in the public arena. They do not look or act like two worried individuals to me.

[Emptyset]

There was a video clip somewhere here (too many threads and posts for me to locate it now) of Suthep being told (in his absence) that if he did not persist in 2 days they would kill him -there was also mention that a 5m baht bounty would be raised from Thaksin's son (though I doubt he knew of this pledge himself!) to be put on Sutheps head. Actual footage from the stadium of this being said.

The Reds were not in the stadium when the (so called) whites began their protests nor when Suthep first appointed himself their leader - it was alter the Reds were bussed in - very few came locally, so buses came from, further afield. This is what I meant by being there first. The protestors were there to protest - the Reds went there to protest what exactly? Pro-government - no one in their right mind could possibly believe this was the aim! Why wait 2 years and then only come when there are protestors? The only reason was to confront the whites - this was provocative regardless of the motives, but the tone of the speeches from onstage in the stadium shows there is a violent motive.

21:43: Arisman: " if Suthep-led protest doesn't stop, he will take the reds to stop them."

Yesterday: Nattawut: "If Suthep steps up his protest tomorrow, red nationwide will do likewise. Please get set people. "

Yesterday: Thida: "If this government can't control the situation, we will show them the real people's revolution."

Yeah, noted the Arisman comments. Just I find it strange if the reds had said something that exteme on stage, usually The Nation folk etc (on twitter) would be all over something like that. Yet I've heard no mention except allegations from avowedly anti-govt people on twitter. Not saying I don't believe you, but if it is true, I'm sure it'll be mentioned in tomorrow's paper etc.

I'm not talking about the anti-govt people, I know they were protesting first. But reds didn't go to confront them. I'm talking about the specific protests at RU. To confront the reds was a specific strategy RU students decided on today. What about their democratic right to assemble peacefully at the stadium? The world over, when a govt is threatened by protests, it's not surprising that they organize pro-govt protests. Not necessarily to directly confront, but as a show of strength. You wouldn't expect any different. The speeches are completely irrelevant I'm afraid. You're making the mistake that people did in 2010, thinking that speeches provoked people to fight. Those at the stage were completely peaceful. It was those that weren't at the stage listening to the speeches that were violent. And that's exactly what happened today. It wasn't reds from Issan fighting students, it was local reds (according to a journalist on the scene).

Not to condone provocative speeches, I think the less of that the better at this point. But to highlight that as a cause, when people involved in fighting likely hadn't even listened to speeches seems mistaken. Note that Nattawud called for reds to stay in the stadium.

If we're in the business of condemning speeches though, here's what a journalist present had to say about the RU students:

georgehenton ‏@georgehenton 9h

Last tweet not fair. This fuelled by hateful political rhetoric from 'leaders'. An attack on totally innocent and defenceless ppl. Sick.

This was before anyone was shot, of course, during the period where the students were having a free run at people who couldn't defend themselves.

[Biscuit22]

Apparently these are the possessions of the gunman in the picture.

Apparently it has been pointed out that the card is a 'police card'.

Certainly a police radio.

[wolf5370]

Masked red shirt shooter emptied his gun at the students and can be clearly seen tucking it back in his waistband.

Allegedly was taken at around 02.30.

The could not do it without guns and they know it. The students were rushing them and pushing them back and the reds needed guns to make a counter push.

Sign of weak cowards.

Weak coward is one that sits behind a computer screen in the safety of his own house calling others cowards who are brave enough to venture out into the masses and stand up for what they believe.

No I think he was right - taking a gun and shooting an unarmed kid is hardly brave now is it - or do you disagree. Yes you, F430murci, the guy behind the keyboard calling other people behind keyboards cowards (ironic really) for having an opinion about murder not being acceptable.

[Emptyset]

BRAVE Red shirts standing up for what they believe.

reportedly now burning cars and shops and stealing food, beer and liquor.

Obviously their belief is that food and drink should be free, and they can wreck people's livelihoods at whim.

Source? That is the way it goes down in a riot, of course, but you're the only one I've seen say anything about this. btw I've seen several pictures on social media of red shirts beaten by student mob, worst one probably being a red shirt they'd 'captured'. I could post them but I don't really want to go down the route of exchanging endless pictures. For what purpose? It's clear that both sides used violence. They seemed to be evenly matched on that score before guns were brought into the equation, but that, as I say, was sadly inevitable.

But if you still want to believe the students were peaceful and the red shirts were aggressors, please look at these pics which were taken before hardcore red shirts responded: http://www.demotix.com/photo/3380166/red-shirts-targeted-anti-govt-protesters-outside-university.

[F430murci]

Weak coward is one that sits behind a computer screen in the safety of his own house calling others cowards who are brave enough to venture out into the masses and stand up for what they believe.

The brave ones are the students protecting their uni against armed terrorists.., the cowards are the ones with the guns.

Do not even attempt to hail these thugs and weaklings as heroes.

I am not glorifying anyone. I just don't criticize and judge what I neither fully understand nor for a situation in which I don't have all of the facts. You sit from the safety of your home, behind a computer and judge people based on speculation, rumor and innuendo.

It's a debate.

There are plenty of images and videos that are pretty conclusive. Don't judge me as you are doing the exact same thing you are whinging about.

That is called hypocrisy.

Haha, hardly the same, but this is exactly why things are so jacked up over there. Reason and common sense has been supplanted by resentment, greed and anger.