iTV Court Ruling

[sriracha john]

BREAKING NEWS

iTV may be renamed TITV

iTV might be renamed TITV, for Thai Independent Television. This would indicate the station at least intends to maintain its role as an independent broadcasting station, permanent secretary to the Prime Minister's Office Chullayuth Hiranyawisit said Wednesday. Mr Chullayuth refused to reveal the new management team of iTV but confirmed that all the team members would be representatives from the government sectors. PM's Office Minister Dhipawadee Meksawan, meanwhile, confirmed that former president of MCOT Plc Mingkwan Sangsuwan, who resigned shortly after the Sept 19 coup to take responsibility for allowing the airing of a state of emergency declaration by ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, was not included in the list.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=117123

[asd]

I'm so sry everyone.

Admin ( dr Pat Pong )

This topic is locked. I can not make reply.

Two Russian Women Killed At Jomthien Beach

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=108120

I do send my condolences to their families & friends.

Latest update

Thailand Most Wanted

2007-02-24

Place : The Jomtien Beach Soi 18 at about 5.30 am.

Nationality : Thai

Gender : Male

Age : 22-25

Height : 160-165 cm

Type of his motorcycle : Honda Wave 110 S or Suzuki Smash black-red, 4 stroke

A 500,000 baht reward is on offer for information leading to the suspect's arrest.

Telephone Numbers

Tourist Police ( English, French and German spoken ) : 1155 or 08-18751637 ( Police Colonel Sutin, the Chief of Pattaya )

Edited February 28, 2007 by asd

[sriracha john]

A new thread on the above topic is open now. Perhaps one of kindly and thoughtful and accomadating mods can move asd's post from above over to:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...=108840&hl=

[slimdog]

MCOT to get 10 per cent from iTV's profit

MCOT Plc will receive 10 per cent of iTV's profits as the management fee once the Prime Minister's Office takes control of iTV and transfers the operations to the new operator.

Chulayuth Hirunyavasit, permanent secretary of the PM's Office, which granted the license to iTV, said MCOT will be responsible for the operating expenses of iTV, which amount to around Bt100 million a month.

He added that MCOT has prepared an amount of Bt400 billion to cover the operations in the first four months. The money would then be covered by iTV's revenue which is estimated at Bt2 billion per annum.

He insisted that no taxpayer money would be involved in the operations of iTV.

The debt-ridden broadcaster's operations would be seized at midnight of March 6 if it fails to pay the unpaid concession fee of Bt2.2 billion.

source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30028245

[sriracha john]

iTV may be taken off air in two days

ITV may have the plug pulled on it temporarily on Wednesday, PM's Office Minister Khunying Dhipavadee Meksawan said yesterday. Dhipavadee, who has been working to resolve the iTV saga, admitted that the problems surrounding the channel were much harder to crack than she had thought. She will now ask the Cabinet to decide whether to temporarily take iTV off the air.

"We have been trying to keep iTV afloat but after a week of dealing with this matter, we realised we must report the facts to the Cabinet and ask it to make a decision,'' she said.

Although the Cabinet resolution on February 27 stipulated that if iTV could not pay a fee, fine and interest of more than Bt100 billion by Tuesday, the Cabinet could revoke its concession. She said Cabinet members would be given information about how to manage the frequency if the concession was scrapped.

Channel 11, of the Public Relations Department, is a state agency and is therefore prevented from running iTV, a private company. However, MCOT-run Channel 9 is a public company, which could operate the station with the approval of its board.

But a meeting of the MCOT board, which was due to discuss the management of iTV yesterday, was called off because of a lack of quorum. Only four board members attended while regulations stipulate that at least five must be in attendance. Another meeting was called for tomorrow.

MCOT board chairman Bunplook Chaiket said members would discuss iTV's operation after the Cabinet makes its decision tomorrow.

The next question is how to negotiate with iTV about its debts to the authorities and how to transfer government-owned equipment back into state hands. And if iTV staff face the chop, the authorities must ensure they get severance pay, the minister said. The MCOT union called on the board to think carefully before taking on the management of iTV.

- The Nation

[keda]

Looks like somebody's gonna end up with a cheap TV station.

[Tony Clifton]

Looks like somebody's gonna end up with a cheap TV station.

Looks like somebody's using a spare member account with 13% of his total of posts made today.

keda

Senior Member

****

Group: Members

Posts: 103

Joined: 2004-03-24

Member No.: 8,504

[keda]

Not sure what you mean by a spare member account, but as long as you do that's ok with me. As to 13% of all my total posts being made today, I believe 100% of my total posts were made on the first day I posted.

Aside from that not a clue what your point is, but if you are that smart then please explain so that everybody can know what a spare member account is, and the significance of 13% (surely >14% by now?) of posts being posted in a day.

[slimdog]

iTV taken off air tonight

ITV would be taken off the air this midnight, immediately after the concession is revoked by the PM's Office, said PM's Office Minister Khunying Dhipawadee Meksawan.

After the Cabinet meeting today, she revealed that to follow through the legal procedure, iTV cannot operate until the government has the confirmation to do so from the Council of State.

"The Council of State will rush through this process. It tends to give the answer within this Friday," she said.

She also noted that the Publics Relations Department would take over iTV's operations, not MCOT as previously planned.

source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/03/06...es_30028606.php

[slimdog]

ITV to be pressed for hefty penalties

PM's Office Minister Khunying Dhipawadee Meksawan said today that the PM's Office, as the owner of the broadcasting concession to iTV Plc, will further pressure the broadcaster for the hefty fines of Bt135 billion.

The fines are a result of iTV's violation of the concession in terms of the programming ratio.

"We're the creditor and we will press for the payment. We need to follow through the procedure carefully to protect the national interests," she said.

ITV's concession would be abolished at midnight, if the company could not repay the unpaid concession fee of Bt2.2 billion.

source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/03/06...es_30028607.php

[Prakanong]

Looks like somebody's gonna end up with a cheap TV station.

Thaksin did back in 97 when he bought it for 60 Million to bail out the then owners ;-)

[taxexile]

Thailand TV station taken over

The station was once owned by Thaksin Shinawatra

The Thai government has announced that it will take over the country's only main independent TV station, iTV, after it failed to pay unpaid fees.

The station was once owned by ousted PM Thaksin Shinawatra, who sold it to Singapore-based firm Temasek in 2006.

The broadcaster had until Tuesday to pay nearly 100bn baht ($2.9bn) in fines and unpaid fees, after losing a legal battle.

But iTV had already admitted it had no hope of finding the money required.

The station - which has no links with the British broadcasting network of the same name - will be shut down temporarily from Wednesday.

The takeover was widely expected after the government announced last week that it would terminate iTV's licence if it failed to meet Tuesday's payment deadline.

"The iTV station will be shut down from 7 March until there is clarity on legal issues," said Dhipawadee Meksawan, a minister at the prime minister's office.

Shin Corp, which was founded by Mr Thaksin and held a 53% stake in iTV, was bought last year by the Singapore-based firm Temasek.

bbc news

[SeanBangkok]

Looks like Thailand will head furthor down on the Freedoms of Media list, who would think that Vietnam would have more press freedom than Thailand!

[Plus]

yes, who?

[marshbags]

From todays Nation.

Fri, March 9, 2007 : Last updated 0:10 am (Thai local time)

EDITORIAL

Quote:-

iTV journalists owe us all an apology

Employees who sold themselves cheap to Thaksin have nerve to portray themselves as free-media crusaders

ITV journalists can be forgiven for believing that they have scored a major victory in their fight for self-preservation. For now, they can look forward to severance pay from their former employer, iTV Public Company Limited, while at the same time remain assured that they will be immediately hired by the government's Public Relations Department (PRD), which has assumed guardianship of the station until a new private media company is found to operate it as a news and current affairs television network free from state interference and political manipulation.

However journalists at iTV, which has been renamed TITV, were stretching the truth when they portrayed themselves so touchingly as champions of broadcast media freedom in a heroic struggle against the military-backed Surayud government, which is supposedly bent on snuffing out "the country's only independent" television network.

It is understandable that a large segment of Thai society was swayed by the high drama conjured up by iTV journalists before they won their 11th hour reprieve when the Council of State ruled that the PRD could legally run iTV and that the station was allowed to continue broadcasting without interruption.

Unquote.

Please go to the following url for the complete article:-

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/03/09...on_30028865.php

At last an article that sees the situation regarding the media footsoldiers of the CEO and his government and were for the last 5 years brainwashing the public with their unethical actions as suppos....ed journalists and being nothing more than as mouthpieces / puppets of the Puppet Master.

They should all suffer the fate they deserve and the true journalist of ethical standards who where sacked because they wouldn,t do Toxins bidding and give him lip service ( grovel to his demands on censoring the truth. ) REINSTATED to the posts they have earned by their sacrifices for free speech, ALONG WITH ADEQUATE MONETARY REWARDS TO COMPENSTATE THEM.

I was sickened by the phoney demonstrations the present staff undertook to gain yet more sympathy from the very viewers they have lied and misled during his premiership on a daily basis.

The following part of the article say,s it all for my money.

Quote:-

The sad truth is that many of these iTV journalists, who once distinguished themselves as the standard bearers of independent broadcast journalism, stooped so low that they allowed themselves to be used as Thaksin's propaganda tool to perpetuate the culture of deceit and corruption. It boggles the mind how these same journalists who sat on their hands and watched as Thaksin and his henchmen trampled iTV's editorial independence, and who benefited from it, should now have the temerity to fashion themselves as advocates for broadcast media freedom. What they should be doing is offering the public an apology for betraying their trust and failing to observe professional ethics. They must re-learn media professional ethics and realise that most of the time it is not always convenient or profitable to practise honest journalism, uphold professional standards and preserve self-respect.

Unquote.

100% correct with no exceptions what so ever IMHO

A little OFF topic maybe but how so many people can keep bashing this present administration for practically everything that,s now wrong with Thailand is beyond me.

HAVE you forgotten, perhaps conveniently, who put Thailand into this mess in the first place.

As a consequence those now trying to sort it all out are being used as scapegoats and whipping material while the true perpetrators are still being feted as possible saviours of the country and have been unjustly

treated as honourable people with HONEST / DISHONEST INTENTIONS.

How phoney and unrealistic can you get, DO ME A FAVOUR PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

marshbags

Edited March 9, 2007 by marshbags

[ColPyat]

From todays Nation.

Rather ironic the article by the Nation which has lost all journalistic distance by becoming becoming a propagandistic mouth piece for the PAD and supported and applauded an illegal military coup.

[Tony Clifton]

Funny, I saw criticism towards the junta on the Nation's front page on many occasions.

Any newspaper, including The Post, Matichon and others, agreeing with junta or PAD are also propagandistic mouth pieces?

You don't sem to leave much room for freedom of press.

Edited March 9, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[slimdog]

A little OFF topic maybe but how so many people can keep bashing this present administration for practically everything that,s now wrong with Thailand is beyond me.

HAVE you forgotten, perhaps conveniently, who put Thailand into this mess in the first place.

As a consequence those now trying to sort it all out are being used as scapegoats and whipping material while the true perpetrators are still being feted as possible saviours of the country and have been unjustly

treated as honourable people with HONEST / DISHONEST INTENTIONS.

How phoney and unrealistic can you get, DO ME A FAVOUR PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

marshbags

The reason that people have been bashing the present administration for the itv mess can be found in yesterdays THe Nation:

The plan to revoke the broadcasting concession was first mooted late last year when it looked certain the channel would face huge penalties - of over Bt100 billion - and it would be unable to pay. Now, that time has come, and it is evident the government is poorly equipped and ill-prepared to take the next steps in handling iTV.

Despite having months to prepare, the Cabinet only approved the revocation last week.

Then, the PM's Office started talking about having MCOT run iTV. While MCOT acting president Pongsak Phayakvichien said that could be done - now that MCOT is still majority-owned by the Finance Ministry and maintains quasi state-enterprise status - most of MCOT's directors were absent from the board meeting last weekend to approve the management contract.

Then, yesterday, Dhipawadee named the Public Relations Department as the future operator of iTV. However, the PRD can only take over operations when the Council of State guarantees that such an arrangement does not violate broadcasting law. The answer will possibly come on Friday.

It was a surprise that talks and legal reviews did not take place long before the revocation, to pave the way for assets seizure and operations takeover immediately after the station was taken over by the state. Considering the performance of the government in the past five months, this is not surprising, though.

source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/pag...amp;id=30028688

Todays news, From the Bangkok Post:

The spectre of bankruptcy still hangs over iTV Plc, with the public prosecutor making it clear yesterday the company is still liable for its 2.2 billion baht overdue concession fee and fine. Meanwhile, its successor TITV, which is being run by the Public Relations Department (PRD), is leaderless.

Chira Hongladarom resigned yesterday as acting director of the state-owned UHF television channel, system and head of the committee charged with running the station during its transition after only 24 hours in the job.

Mr Chira took the step after critics questioned his eligibility as a declared bankrupt. He is currently appealing the bankruptcy court's verdict.

source: http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/09Mar2007_news01.php

Reminded of the 7 "P" rule:

Proper Planning & Preperation Prevents Pi$$ Poor Performance

[blaze]

From todays Nation.

HAVE you forgotten, perhaps conveniently, who put Thailand into this mess in the first place.

marshbags

In a country that has seen the army seize power on an average of once every 5 or so years, let me guess.

[samran]

for all that is wrong with the Nation at the moment, the iTV editorial this morning was spot on. The government was outmanouvered by a bunch of PR savvy, lapdog journo's. The PM's Office permanent secretary handled it badly.

Problem is though, it is a nice drama unfolding, which the average Thai, if they are interested, is lapping up. Sh!tcorp have gotten away with murder, firstly buying it up, firing non-sypathetic journo's, cutting concessions paid to the governemnt while increasing advertising revenure my producing more 'entertainment', flogging it off to the Singaporeans.

And who is left holding the can? The junta of course. Thaksin must be laughing.

[thedude]

what could a station have done that could have cost 135 billion baht in fines?!?

thats like US$ 3.9 billion!

if i had US$3.9 billion i'd probably say hey you can take iTV, i'm buying a stake in CNN, i'm funding the next spielberg movie, i'm cutting some records with p diddy and i'm dating paris hilton.

[marshbags]

From todays Nation.

HAVE you forgotten, perhaps conveniently, who put Thailand into this mess in the first place.

marshbags

In a country that has seen the army seize power on an average of once every 5 or so years, let me guess.

Thaksin had total control and supervised and approved all policies and agenda,s for the last 5 years and had an opportunity to address what had gone before.

Instead he used it for self gain and the enrichment of the unethical PUYAI.

This was NOT what the newly formed TRT was supposed to be elected for.

Even i was sucked into thinking he was partly genuine and wanted to at least put the scales more in favour with the under priviledged ????

As Thai politics went i never expected him to be 100% Honest / Dishonest but imagined he would at least give them hope for the future.

Thai to help ( LOVE ) Thai i seem to remember was one of their slogans used as a platform to seduce the voters with while planning to empty the nations coffers.

He / they, fed them peanuts while systematically stealing the crown jewels.

No Premier has had as much power and influence over their government in recent times than him and what good came out of it all for the Thai people and it,s country.

By the way when i mention blaming this administration for the present situation i meant much more than the ITV scandal and it was all generated inherited from Thaksin and his coherts.

I just cannot see how the responsibility can be shifted to those now trying to sort the dodgy dealings the likes of ITV have found themselves in and all the other mess out.

There is more to come and that,s for sure.

Just imagine how many more self rewarding schemes and policies would have been in the bank ( theirs ) not withstanding the ones that have been exposed and are currently under investigation that would never have surfaced. ????????????

Had he been able to hold on to power, that is.

The reporters who did his bidding are unprofessional and unethical to say the least and have consequently earned the right to be shown the door. BIG TIME

Accountability for all Top to Bottom.

IMHO of course.

marshbags

Edited March 9, 2007 by marshbags

[blaze]

From todays Nation.

HAVE you forgotten, perhaps conveniently, who put Thailand into this mess in the first place.

marshbags

In a country that has seen the army seize power on an average of once every 5 or so years, let me guess.

Thaksin had total control and supervised and approved all policies and agenda,s for the last 5 years and had an opportunity to address what had gone before.

Instead he used it for self gain and the enrichment of the unethical PUYAI.

This was NOT what the newly formed TRT was supposed to be elected for.

Even i was sucked into thinking he was partly genuine and wanted to at least put the scales more in favour with the under priviledged ????

As Thai politics went i never expected him to be 100% Honest / Dishonest but imagined he would at least give them hope for the future.

Thai to help ( LOVE ) Thai i seem to remember was one of their slogans used as a platform to seduce the voters with while planning to empty the nations coffers.

He / they, fed them peanuts while systematically stealing the crown jewels.

No Premier has had as much power and influence over their government in recent times than him and what good came out of it all for the Thai people and it,s country.

By the way when i mention blaming this administration for the present situation i meant much more than the ITV scandal and it was all generated inherited from Thaksin and his coherts.

I just cannot see how the responsibility can be shifted to those now trying to sort the dodgy dealings the likes of ITV have found themselves in and all the other mess out.

There is more to come and that,s for sure.

Just imagine how many more self rewarding schemes and policies would have been in the bank ( theirs ) not withstanding the ones that have been exposed and are currently under investigation that would never have surfaced. ????????????

Had he been able to hold on to power, that is.

The reporters who did his bidding are unprofessional and unethical to say the least and have consequently earned the right to be shown the door. BIG TIME

Accountability for all Top to Bottom.

IMHO of course.

marshbags

The question that will linger after this mess- is what is the tipping point at which the army of any country can legitimately be justified in overthrowing an elected government.

At what point can a democracy be said to be hopeless. In Thailand, every democratic government (there haven't been many, granted) that has been overthrown was accused by the army and its minions of being corrupt. In almost every military dictatorship I am aware of, from the fascists in Europe to the Generals in South America, the dictators justified their seizing power by citing the need for 'national unity', the ineffectiveness of the elected government to 'solve national problems'--- And usually, citing its corruption.

At the time of the coup, the Democrats were enjoying a level of electoral support in Bkk they hadn't seen since Taksin entered the scene. The EC commisioners were busted. The ITV reporters had been reassigned to their jobs. The public was aware of the Shin scandal- in fact of most allegations attaching to Taksin. And not just the public in Bangkok.

Had the tipping point been reached?

Then we look at the modern history of the military in Thailand, see that it has never been committed whatsoever to anything close to true democracy- that for many in this country, many very powerful people, democracy was never really understood- the principles behind it being totally at odds with the notion of rank and class that permeate much of Thail thinking- a notion which serves some- and subjugates most.

In short- I don't buy the idea that the tipping point was reached. For an change of government- absolutely- but for a change to a dictatorship- no matter how noble their words- no.

[marshbags]

Only time will tell what significance the present situation will have on modern Thailand.

The fact that a line was drawn under the TRT,s real agenda,s can only be seen in a positive light regarding the pillaging of the nations assets, abuse and minipulation of the constitution ect. ect.

Under normal circumstances i would agree with your terminology on dictatorship, but i do not see the violent repression ect. one usually associates with them, especially a military one.

The chaos politically and otherwise that started it all has certainly stopped and their seems to be much more freedom if you compare the censoring of the various news media which was totally controlled by Thaksin and now Thais in my neck of the woods are more content with their lot ( North East Moo Ban )

It was incidently 100% TRT, even during the period prior to the airport scandal it was still well supported.

Now, the silent embarrassment has been replaced by vigorous condemnation.

This includes the role of the executives and senior management of ITV who they see as responsible along with those who negotiated the change in formating and the syphoning off of funds.

marshbags

Edited March 9, 2007 by marshbags

[ColPyat]

Thaksin had total control and supervised and approved all policies and agenda,s for the last 5 years and had an opportunity to address what had gone before.

No, Thaksin never had total control. This is an assumption that runs through all your posts, influences all your opinions. Because of this fallacy you misjudge the situation in Thailand, now, and then under Thaksin.

Thaksin was able to balance many widely differing vested interests. That's it, no more. His rule was not monolithic but a temporary alliance of all the different power networks at play in Thailand for a mutual benefit.

And this alliance was breaking up. His powerful opponents did not come from outside of the Thai power game, the public ones not even from outside his own party. Both Sondhi Limthongkul and Chamlong Srimuang, the most powerful leaders of the PAD, were TRT. Sanoh Tienthong, also honored visitor of the PAD rallies, was TRT. And so was Purachai.

Relationships with Gen. Chavalit got strained as well.

All the people i have mentioned were at Thaksin's side during the grossest abuses of power of Thaksin, have supported him, and the other collaborators outside his party far more powerful than Thaksin himself. People who do not need to involve themselves in party politics.

Your theory is convenient, but is neither realistic, nor does does it conform to any serious study on Thaksin, his party, the coup, and the political history of Thailand.

[blaze]

Only time will tell what significance the present situation will have on modern Thailand.

The fact that a line was drawn under the TRT,s real agenda,s can only be seen in a positive light regarding the pillaging of the nations assets, abuse and minipulation of the constitution ect. ect.

Under normal circumstances i would agree with your terminology on dictatorship, but i do not see the violent repression ect. one usually associates with them, especially a military one.

The chaos politically and otherwise that started it all has certainly stopped and their seems to be much more freedom if you compare the censoring of the various news media which was totally controlled by Thaksin and now Thais in my neck of the woods are more content with their lot ( North East Moo Ban )

It was incidently 100% TRT, even during the period prior to the airport scandal it was still well supported.

Now, the silent embarrassment has been replaced by vigorous condemnation.

This includes the role of the executives and senior management of ITV who they see as responsible along with those who negotiated the change in formating and the syphoning off of funds.

marshbags

Pillaging the nation's assets? then why is the regime finding it so difficult to stick him with any crimes? Remember Gen Sonthi's exasperation after the coup- he had bought the PAD rumors (as many had) and was pissed off that there was not the cut and dried evidence of corruption that he had expected.

However I do agree that he abused and possibly manipulated the constitution- though he did it, apparantly, within the rule of law.

I used to condemn Taksin (still do) for his divying up his assets among kin - but then, didn't Paul Martin, ex-pm of Canada do precisely the same thing prior to his being elected. Probably, (unfortunately) quite common in a lot of countries.

You mention his 'agenda'- I don't believe the supposed agenda of a leader of a country can provide the tipping point. Some would argue that his agenda was not to aggrandize himself financially, so much as to aggrandize himself as the successor to Lee Kwan Yew- the man who history would remember as having brought Thaiand into the modern age. (an insanely presumptuous goal, but none the less- not deserving of a military coup).

Regarding violence: there has been no violence in part because there has been no real opposition. And in part, because I think that this bunch is relatively benign. The problem with dictatorships though, is that it only takes one benevolent dictator (such as Annand) to create a mindset that welcomes other dictators- who might not be - in fact rarely are, as benevolent as Anand- or Sarayuth. I firmly believe that had Anand not been such a 'good' leader, follwoing the massacre of 92, this bunch would never have been greeted with flowers. But look at the bunch who preceeded Anand- the memory of whom was 'wiped clean' by the benevolence of the Anand regime. In history- Thai as well as international, such a regime is the exception.

It's like the guy playing the lottery- he wins once- and in the back of his mind he's thinking- my god=it's all so easy, just spin the wheel and collect the cash. But the odds are against him.

The chaos you refer to was caused by a group of former Taksin cronies demanding that he reneg on his mandate to serve the country and quit! Which is NOT what he was elected to do.

And silent embarassment? I don't recall too much silence at all in the last year of Taksin government. I recall a LOT of condemntation. (Often brainless- such as- he didn't pay capital gains, mouthed by people (I kinow this) who weren't aware there is not capital gains tax in Thailand. Remember the Finland conspiracy? The 'rumor' that he was planning to negotiate a way a chunk of Thailand to Cambodia?

Yes it was a juvenile, democracy. And it might have taken one or two more elections to get rid of Taksin. Mexico though put up with the much more blatant excesses of the PRI for seventy five years- and why? Because they had learned the hard way that even a rotten democracy is better than a dictatorship.

If this coup returns some semblence of democracy to the people- I worry that the first time the next elected government hickups- the army will be right there to 'save the country'. And history should teach us- the odds are against continued benevolence- especially in a country where the army makes no secret of it's loyalty to the status quo- and where the days of the happy impoverished peasant merrily mohliming in the paddys are numbered.

Edited March 9, 2007 by blaze

[Plus]

Oh, the revision of history....

There hasn't been a coup in Thailand every five years. The previous one has been fifteen years ago, a whole new generation of people has grown up since, and a whole new generation of politicians.

Opposition to Thaksin was a whole lot more that a group of former Thaksin cronies.

And I haven't seen anyone publicly saying that accusations of corruption against Thaksin were unjustified or made up. Legally he is presumed innocent until proven guilty, if that's what you mean, but that's not enough for the people. They want justice seen to be served. Like with Yobamroong killings - they walked free, the man is gone. Has justice been served? Did people believed the court for one second?

In Thaksin's case it's very difficult to prove everything as nearly everyone in the government was involved in one way or another and they are not going to testify against themselves. Look at land sale case - the finance ministry, headed by Pridiyatorn, has been covering up for Thaksin from the very beginning and continue to do so. AEC has asked for the law to be amended so that government departments are legally obliged to file complaints in cases that AEC investigates. It's not an easy situation - if they do so, they will be admitting guilt, and some of their own heads will roll. It's not an easy task. A couple of months ago we kind of agreed here that they should try and get Thaksin for just one solid case, like the US Revenue Department did with Al Capone.

He also did lots of things legally - like getting the House to vote on foreign ownership in telecoms just a day before Shin sale, or reducing AIS concession payments by 80 billion baht that eventually drove the stock up by 260 billion (as explained by Korn of the Democrats). Thai laws are not designed to deal with "policy corruption" - where through total control of all law making process Thaksin was able to engage in corruption legally.

I also have never heard that Thaksin was not in control of TRT and the government. Ok, I heard that from Colpyat earlier, but no one else. It's an extremely odd view.

People who disagreed with Thaksin were all politically dead. Purachai chose self-exile and Snoh left with just a dozen men, for example.

[blaze]

Oh, the revision of history....

There hasn't been a coup in Thailand every five years. The previous one has been fifteen years ago,"

There have been 17 coups in Thailand since 1932- in 75 years, that averages out to- well, you do the math- but if you are going to quote me, please take the time to read what I said- because I said: an AVERAGE of once every five years.

"a whole new generation of people has grown up since, and a whole new generation of politicians."

"What? The entire government is composed of people who were middle aged at the time of the last coup. You don't get new generations of political leaders in this country every fifteen years.

"Opposition to Thaksin was a whole lot more that a group of former Thaksin cronies."

Never said it wasn't- I said, the chaos was caused by former cronies- specifically Sondhi L and Chamlong. Till the PAD rallies, there was opposition - but nothing close to chaos.

"And I haven't seen anyone publicly saying that accusations of corruption against Thaksin were unjustified or made up. Legally he is presumed innocent until proven guilty, if that's what you mean, but that's not enough for the people. They want justice seen to be served. Like with Yobamroong killings - they walked free, the man is gone. Has justice been served? Did people believed the court for one second?"

The fact that nobody publicly questions the accusations of corruption hardly constitutes the fact of corruption. Is every government against whom allegations of corruption made, in the future, going to be prone to being militarily overthrown?

"In Thaksin's case it's very difficult to prove everything as nearly everyone in the government was involved in one way or another and they are not going to testify against themselves. Look at land sale case - the finance ministry, headed by Pridiyatorn, has been covering up for Thaksin from the very beginning and continue to do so. AEC has asked for the law to be amended so that government departments are legally obliged to file complaints in cases that AEC investigates. It's not an easy situation - if they do so, they will be admitting guilt, and some of their own heads will roll. It's not an easy task. A couple of months ago we kind of agreed here that they should try and get Thaksin for just one solid case, like the US Revenue Department did with Al Capone."

But without a paper trail- an even warm gun, let alone smoking- is there cause for the army to overthrow the government in any country- remember Whitewater? Even (most of) Clinton's most ardent opponents would not have creamed their jeans at the prospect of the army seizing the White House.

"He also did lots of things legally - like getting the House to vote on foreign ownership in telecoms just a day before Shin sale, or reducing AIS concession payments by 80 billion baht that eventually drove the stock up by 260 billion (as explained by Korn of the Democrats). Thai laws are not designed to deal with "policy corruption" - where through total control of all law making process Thaksin was able to engage in corruption legally."

Again, is 'engaging in corruption legally' the tipping point? If so, look at Haliburton's relationship with the American Government. And I'm sure almost every democracy in the world has or has had similar issues.

"I also have never heard that Thaksin was not in control of TRT and the government. Ok, I heard that from Colpyat earlier, but no one else. It's an extremely odd view."

Then you have never heard the old political adage: "I am their leader. And therefore I must follow"

"People who disagreed with Thaksin were all politically dead. Purachai chose self-exile and Snoh left with just a dozen men, for example."

Not sure what you mean here. Many who disagreed with Taksin are more alive than they have been in a long time.

Edited March 9, 2007 by blaze

[ColPyat]

Oh, the revision of history....

There hasn't been a coup in Thailand every five years. The previous one has been fifteen years ago, a whole new generation of people has grown up since, and a whole new generation of politicians.

Opposition to Thaksin was a whole lot more that a group of former Thaksin cronies.

Yes, but they did not pull the crowds, neither did they draw the numbers. Without Sondhi and Chamlong the PAD would have had about the same size as the present demonstrations. Only when Sondhi started his TV show turned demonstration the protest against Thaksin became noticable, and only after Chamlong joined it became a real danger for Thaksin. Evidence of that is that only a week or so after Chamlong joined Thaksin dissolved parliament.

Chamlong, by the way, was involved in several coups and coup attempts, Surayudh was personally involved in atrocities during Black May, etc. Basically, i don't see any "new generation" of people, but the same old faces playing the same old games.

And I haven't seen anyone publicly saying that accusations of corruption against Thaksin were unjustified or made up. Legally he is presumed innocent until proven guilty, if that's what you mean, but that's not enough for the people. They want justice seen to be served. Like with Yobamroong killings - they walked free, the man is gone. Has justice been served? Did people believed the court for one second?

In Thaksin's case it's very difficult to prove everything as nearly everyone in the government was involved in one way or another and they are not going to testify against themselves. Look at land sale case - the finance ministry, headed by Pridiyatorn, has been covering up for Thaksin from the very beginning and continue to do so. AEC has asked for the law to be amended so that government departments are legally obliged to file complaints in cases that AEC investigates. It's not an easy situation - if they do so, they will be admitting guilt, and some of their own heads will roll. It's not an easy task. A couple of months ago we kind of agreed here that they should try and get Thaksin for just one solid case, like the US Revenue Department did with Al Capone.

Sorry, but remember you and a few others stating this. I don't recall an agreement. Well, i guess it must have been an agreement in Thai style democracy then - a vocal minority clique decides what is agreed upon for the rest of us.

He also did lots of things legally - like getting the House to vote on foreign ownership in telecoms just a day before Shin sale, or reducing AIS concession payments by 80 billion baht that eventually drove the stock up by 260 billion (as explained by Korn of the Democrats). Thai laws are not designed to deal with "policy corruption" - where through total control of all law making process Thaksin was able to engage in corruption legally.

I also have never heard that Thaksin was not in control of TRT and the government. Ok, I heard that from Colpyat earlier, but no one else. It's an extremely odd view.

Maybe that sounds odd to you because you reject every paper that is written by noted academics, every book that has been published about Thaksin, by people such as Giles Ungkaporn, Chris Baker, Pasuk Phongpaichit, Duncan McCargo, Thongchai Winichakul, and many more.

And because you ignore other books explaining history because they are banned, or simply recommended by me, such as 'Rituals of National Loyalty' - the maybe best book on Thai politics ever written.

People who disagreed with Thaksin were all politically dead. Purachai chose self-exile and Snoh left with just a dozen men, for example.

Purachai is very much alive, he even was one of the candidates for the speaker position in the NLA. Sanoh acted in the backgrond. People just receided for a while and waited for their day, knowing that nothing stays the same in Thai politics, and that nothing here is monolithic.

And people like Prem never were even closed to dead, and have orchestrated a military coup when Thaksin dared to interfere with their extra-constitutional power base.

Face it - this had nothing to do with democracy, or Thaksin's corruption or his disregard for human rights - it was nothing but an old style power struggle between different vested interests of the elite.

[marshbags]

Thaksin had total control and supervised and approved all policies and agenda,s for the last 5 years and had an opportunity to address what had gone before.

No, Thaksin never had total control. This is an assumption that runs through all your posts, influences all your opinions. Because of this fallacy you misjudge the situation in Thailand, now, and then under Thaksin.

Thaksin was able to balance many widely differing vested interests. That's it, no more. His rule was not monolithic but a temporary alliance of all the different power networks at play in Thailand for a mutual benefit.

And this alliance was breaking up. His powerful opponents did not come from outside of the Thai power game, the public ones not even from outside his own party. Both Sondhi Limthongkul and Chamlong Srimuang, the most powerful leaders of the PAD, were TRT. Sanoh Tienthong, also honored visitor of the PAD rallies, was TRT. And so was Purachai.

Relationships with Gen. Chavalit got strained as well.

All the people i have mentioned were at Thaksin's side during the grossest abuses of power of Thaksin, have supported him, and the other collaborators outside his party far more powerful than Thaksin himself. People who do not need to involve themselves in party politics.

Your theory is convenient, but is neither realistic, nor does does it conform to any serious study on Thaksin, his party, the coup, and the political history of Thailand.

As we are now going way off topic ....................

You are entitled to your version of Thaksins non total influence ect.

Obviously i do not agree with of your views on his non total influence .. You are joking of course

That is not going to alter until i see evidence to convince me otherwise.

The ITV staff are predictable in their hypocrisy and their double standards as today they are complaining about the interference of the present temp. administration.

They really are phoney when you relate to their roles of the last 5 years ???

Now after just one day they decide to complain about present interference, it is obvious where their loyalties are, when will they ever learn, when will they ever learn.

This after being rescued and kept in their jobs of employment, they make me sick.

marshbags

Edited March 10, 2007 by marshbags