Yingluck accused of dodging responsibility over Ramkhamhaeng shootings

[whybother]

Very, very sad news. The story I mentioned on a previous thread about the corpse found in the bus burned the day after this incident is unfortunately true.

แก้วมาลา Kaewmala ‏@Thai_Talk 13m

Charred skeleton in the burnt bus has been identified. 17-year-old Suradech. RIP :-( RT “@top10thai: pic.twitter.com/BUAlomDGEf via @kowit_js100

I'd like to see further confirmation of that, considering reports have said "skeleton" and "missing skull".

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed.

[gemini81]

...according to measures she has tried to take against others........she should be charged with murder......no...???

Don't forget the families need 7 million in compensation too.

[Prbkk]

The Bangkok Post is reporting that the body found on the burnt out bus could be that of a 17 year-old reported missing by his family. It reports that he went to the area with a friend on Sunday afternoon; the 2 were then attacked by people throwing pingpong bombs, so they sought shelter on the bus. The bus .was then set on fire, one person escaped but couldn't find his friend.

[Emptyset]

"Hitting her with a premeditated murder charge is the only fair thing to do. If she wouldn't have masterminded the whitewash-all-criminals bill, this would never have happened. Also, if she and her brother would not have looked for a confrontation with peaceful protesters this would never have happened." This argument, if it can be called that, is so absurd even Fox News wouldn't dare to assert it. How about charging the Chinese for inventing gunpowder, which led to guns? Fairly clear that the so called students instigated this one, especially with the 3 or 4 to 1 kill ratio, the burned buses, taxi. Students with guns? Considering Thailand is in top 5 of firearm homicides, the choice of shooting seems inevitable. How about laying the responsibility for violence on those who do violence? I think it was those who started this "anti democratic democratic movement" who were throwing petrol bombs, taking over buildings, etc, and I would not call that "peaceful". They were doing everything they could think of to spark a bloody conflict. They can't win at the ballot box, so try to get sympathy vote of "look what this mean government is doing to us" hoping for bloodshed.. The reds who wished to go to stadium: should they have taken heliocopters? Have them dropped by their drivers? No, they took the bus. And got attacked.

"Fairly clear that the so called students instigated this one, especially with the 3 or 4 to 1 kill ratio, the burned buses, taxi. Students with guns?"

Hahaha oh dear, that's got to be one of the best theories out there...

Why is it funny? I kept an open mind on who was responsible, but all the evidence points to the students beginning the violence. The only thing that isn't certain is who fired the first shot, but the fighting had already begun hours before then. Unless of course you're laughing at 'Students with guns?', because yes, it would hardly be a surprise that some of the RU students & technical students that came to help them from Suthep's group would be armed...

[rubl]

The Bangkok Post is reporting that the body found on the burnt out bus could be that of a 17 year-old reported missing by his family. It reports that he went to the area with a friend on Sunday afternoon; the 2 were then attacked by people throwing pingpong bombs, so they sought shelter on the bus. The bus .was then set on fire, one person escaped but couldn't find his friend.

'could' ?

I can only find the post from the 1st of Dec which had Pol Col Hassadin Noppawong na Ayutthaya of the HuaMak police station saying that an unidentified and badly burned body was found near the bus toilet. Also it would seem the bus was set on fire hours AFTER all red-shirts already had left it.

[Prbkk]

Sadly, I think you are probably correct. We know that the vocational/ technical students were on a 'security detail' for the protests and we know from previous experience that there is a propensity for, and willingness to use, violence .

"Hitting her with a premeditated murder charge is the only fair thing to do. If she wouldn't have masterminded the whitewash-all-criminals bill, this would never have happened. Also, if she and her brother would not have looked for a confrontation with peaceful protesters this would never have happened." This argument, if it can be called that, is so absurd even Fox News wouldn't dare to assert it. How about charging the Chinese for inventing gunpowder, which led to guns? Fairly clear that the so called students instigated this one, especially with the 3 or 4 to 1 kill ratio, the burned buses, taxi. Students with guns? Considering Thailand is in top 5 of firearm homicides, the choice of shooting seems inevitable. How about laying the responsibility for violence on those who do violence? I think it was those who started this "anti democratic democratic movement" who were throwing petrol bombs, taking over buildings, etc, and I would not call that "peaceful". They were doing everything they could think of to spark a bloody conflict. They can't win at the ballot box, so try to get sympathy vote of "look what this mean government is doing to us" hoping for bloodshed.. The reds who wished to go to stadium: should they have taken heliocopters? Have them dropped by their drivers? No, they took the bus. And got attacked.

"Fairly clear that the so called students instigated this one, especially with the 3 or 4 to 1 kill ratio, the burned buses, taxi. Students with guns?"

Hahaha oh dear, that's got to be one of the best theories out there...

Why is it funny? I kept an open mind on who was responsible, but all the evidence points to the students beginning the violence. The only thing that isn't certain is who fired the first shot, but the fighting had already begun hours before then. Unless of course you're laughing at 'Students with guns?', because yes, it would hardly be a surprise that some of the RU students & technical students that came to help them from Suthep's group would be armed...

[rubl]

Sadly, I think you are probably correct. We know that the vocational/ technical students were on a 'security detail' for the protests and we know from previous experience that there is a propensity for, and willingness to use, violence .

Vocational College Students are indeed known to have regular clashes with rival school students. Less common to see students from universities involved.

As for 'security detail', did we know that, or did some think that?

[Emptyset]

Very, very sad news. The story I mentioned on a previous thread about the corpse found in the bus burned the day after this incident is unfortunately true.

แก้วมาลา Kaewmala ‏@Thai_Talk 13m

Charred skeleton in the burnt bus has been identified. 17-year-old Suradech. RIP :-( RT “@top10thai: pic.twitter.com/BUAlomDGEf via @kowit_js100

I'd like to see further confirmation of that, considering reports have said "skeleton" and "missing skull".

So would I. I've heard the same story as Prbkk that the boy was in the wrong place at the wrong time and hid in the bus. I guess it's best to avoid speculation on what exacftly might've happened until we've seen a more detailed report. I also can't find the BKK Post story Prbkk mentions.

[GrantSmith]

 

Why is it funny? I kept an open mind on who was responsible, but all the evidence points to the students beginning the violence. The only thing that isn't certain is who fired the first shot, but the fighting had already begun hours before then. Unless of course you're laughing at 'Students with guns?', because yes, it would hardly be a surprise that some of the RU students & technical students that came to help them from Suthep's group would be armed...

 

It's "funny" that Emdog's conclusion is drawn from and based on a lopsided body count, which is strange given that the first casualty that was recorded was a student. Now that in itself is not an explanation that the "red shirts" weren't fired upon first - I'm sure Herr Nostitz can give us an "accurate" and "reliable" account of who opened fire on whom and who did so first.

But given that the RU student died first, coupled with the images that emerged of a man wielding a firearm that belonged to a red shirt aligned faction before any other image of RU students wielding firearms, gives a bit more weight to the argument of who fired the first shot.

Add to that there hasn't been any images - if there has, I haven't seen them and given Emdog's theory, they haven't either - of students using firearms published by anyone aligned with the red shirts also gives weight to the argument.

[Emptyset]

Sadly, I think you are probably correct. We know that the vocational/ technical students were on a 'security detail' for the protests and we know from previous experience that there is a propensity for, and willingness to use, violence .

Vocational College Students are indeed known to have regular clashes with rival school students. Less common to see students from universities involved.

As for 'security detail', did we know that, or did some think that?

The RU Rector himself claimed that the students who fought the red shirts were a mixture of RU Students and technical students from Suthep's group. I don't think all the university students were from RU either. The one that died was apparently studying at SBAC College. Some of those who arrived later on the red shirt side were also technical students according to the Bangkok Post report.

[rubl]

Sadly, I think you are probably correct. We know that the vocational/ technical students were on a 'security detail' for the protests and we know from previous experience that there is a propensity for, and willingness to use, violence .

Vocational College Students are indeed known to have regular clashes with rival school students. Less common to see students from universities involved.

As for 'security detail', did we know that, or did some think that?

The RU Rector himself claimed that the students who fought the red shirts were a mixture of RU Students and technical students from Suthep's group. I don't think all the university students were from RU either. The one that died was apparently studying at SBAC College. Some of those who arrived later on the red shirt side were also technical students according to the Bangkok Post report.

That doesn't explain the 'security detail' dear Prbkk was talking about.

[Emptyset]

Why is it funny? I kept an open mind on who was responsible, but all the evidence points to the students beginning the violence. The only thing that isn't certain is who fired the first shot, but the fighting had already begun hours before then. Unless of course you're laughing at 'Students with guns?', because yes, it would hardly be a surprise that some of the RU students & technical students that came to help them from Suthep's group would be armed...

It's "funny" that Emdog's conclusion is drawn from and based on a lopsided body count, which is strange given that the first casualty that was recorded was a student. Now that in itself is not an explanation that the "red shirts" weren't fired upon first - I'm sure Herr Nostitz can give us an "accurate" and "reliable" account of who opened fire on whom and who did so first.

But given that the RU student died first, coupled with the images that emerged of a man wielding a firearm that belonged to a red shirt aligned faction before any other image of RU students wielding firearms, gives a bit more weight to the argument of who fired the first shot.

Add to that there hasn't been any images - if there has, I haven't seen them and given Emdog's theory, they haven't either - of students using firearms published by anyone aligned with the red shirts also gives weight to the argument.

Yes, the RU student died first (though he was actually from SBAC college) and the picture, assuming it is from when it's claimed to be from (because some of them aren't), does show someone who seems to be a red shirt guard aiming a gun. Maybe he was the one who fired first. There's another video where the red shirts are pouring in from the soi to fight the students and they hear gun shots and seem to retreat, confused. Seemingly unsure of who was firing. But witnesses in the BKK Post report say they saw the two sides exchanging gunfire.

After the initial confrontation turned much more violent, it would've been difficult to take photographs in the area. I actually think the red shirt guard might've fired first though because apparently the group of teenagers at that point was much larger than their group in front of the stadium and they were getting closer. But who knows...

This report is supposed to help clarify things, but it sounds like absolute chaos and the guy was hiding in a shop for much of it:

"I continued walking down Soi 24 behind Ramkhamhaeng, towards Ratchamangkhala Stadium. I encountered many groups of Red Shirts who were walking in the same direction, but also some groups who were walking out from the stadium. I heard many groups of Red Shirts say that they were trying to enter Ratchamangkhala Stadium, but they could not go in because a group of teenagers — they did not know who they were — had blockaded the entrance.

I stopped at the entrance to Intersection 10 of Ramkhamhaeng Soi 24. A Red Shirt woman ran by, screaming that a group of teenagers had forced her to take off her clothes. A few minutes later, a large number of Red Shirts began yelling at a group of teenagers who had formed a blockade nearby. By then, the chaos began to include the lobbing of objects back and forth between the Red Shirts and the group of teenagers.

For a few minutes, things were launched back and forth. Then, the group of teenagers began to come close to the Red Shirts, who then ran in retreat. The ordinary people walking back and forth in the area began to look for refuge from the bottles and sticks coming down. I heard a shot fired into the sky, but I could not clearly identify which group it came from.

The situation was tense and I then sought refuge inside an [internet] game shop. Outside, the entrance to Intersection 10 was blanketed by the group of teenagers.

Many passersby fled inside the game shop and they quickly closed the door. It began to grow quiet, with the intermittent sound of yells of condemnation. The last sentence that I heard before the full war behind Ramkhamhaeng began around 8 pm was

“Just wait, mung [derogatory form of ‘you’] … in 5 minutes, we will meet”'

http://prachatai.com/english/node/3778

[Emptyset]

Sunai ‏@sunaibkk 2h

Opposition groups demand police arrest killer of Ramkhamhaeng student within 7 days. Not a word about 3 Reds killed during the same clash!

[Prbkk]

The vocational student security detail story was covered in The Nation ( but only a relatively short piece, saying that 200 students were involved and, for some reason, said they were wearing black shirts.

The story about the 17 year old is on the Bangkok post homepage ( not the app and not in the print edition...I think it's a breaking story).

Yes, it's confusing and will take time for it to be sorted. The 17 year old was not an RU student, but from a different technical college ( Bangkapi?)

[Prbkk]

The other story about vocational students, being covered by BP, is that 7 have been arrested on arson charges. I posted that in the bangkok chaos thread

Sadly, I think you are probably correct. We know that the vocational/ technical students were on a 'security detail' for the protests and we know from previous experience that there is a propensity for, and willingness to use, violence .

Vocational College Students are indeed known to have regular clashes with rival school students. Less common to see students from universities involved.

As for 'security detail', did we know that, or did some think that?

[GeorgeO]

Nick Nostitz was apparently present at the scene during the early hours, I don't think there were any other journalists there. Certainly most of the foreign journalists that witnessed students attacking red shirts in the late afternoon/early evening had gone home by the time the red shirts hit back. So hopefully he'll do a write-up at some point and we'll learn more.

Once a journalist - or should that be a photographer? - becomes part of a particular news story, as Nick has done recently, it makes it virtually impossible to go on reporting on that issue, to go on doing their job, without being seen to have "a conflict of interest", as it were.

After all, if you were roughed up by a certain group, only human for that incident to affect the way you report on them, no matter how much you may try for it to not.

Best thing from a professional ethical perspective, would be to take a break from this story. Report on something else. There must be plenty of other interesting issues in Thailand worthy of coverage. No?

Spot on...!

Given his obvious bias towards the Thakisinistra, he should have expected a rough ride in his attempts to infiltrate the crowd and try to provide damning evidence against the anti-government protesters.

If he was working for any organisation with integrity, he would now be "off the case"...!!

[Emptyset]

The vocational student security detail story was covered in The Nation ( but only a relatively short piece, saying that 200 students were involved and, for some reason, said they were wearing black shirts.

The story about the 17 year old is on the Bangkok post homepage ( not the app and not in the print edition...I think it's a breaking story).

Yes, it's confusing and will take time for it to be sorted. The 17 year old was not an RU student, but from a different technical college ( Bangkapi?)

Yes, found it now. Same as I heard before. His friend said he wasn't involved in the confrontation between the students and the red shirts but was attacked while driving to the stadium on Sunday afternoon. The two friends hid on the bus, but they heard someone shout 'fire!', the one that survived ran out but lost his friend. Tragic. RIP. The article is called 'Police confirm five Ramkhaemhaeng deaths' if anyone else is looking for it.

[Emptyset]

Nick Nostitz was apparently present at the scene during the early hours, I don't think there were any other journalists there. Certainly most of the foreign journalists that witnessed students attacking red shirts in the late afternoon/early evening had gone home by the time the red shirts hit back. So hopefully he'll do a write-up at some point and we'll learn more.

Once a journalist - or should that be a photographer? - becomes part of a particular news story, as Nick has done recently, it makes it virtually impossible to go on reporting on that issue, to go on doing their job, without being seen to have "a conflict of interest", as it were.

After all, if you were roughed up by a certain group, only human for that incident to affect the way you report on them, no matter how much you may try for it to not.

Best thing from a professional ethical perspective, would be to take a break from this story. Report on something else. There must be plenty of other interesting issues in Thailand worthy of coverage. No?

Spot on...!

Given his obvious bias towards the Thakisinistra, he should have expected a rough ride in his attempts to infiltrate the crowd and try to provide damning evidence against the anti-government protesters.

If he was working for any organisation with integrity, he would now be "off the case"...!!

Yeah right. You know you wouldn't condone it if a Nation journalist, with their obvious anti-Thaksin bias, was attacked by reds and forced "off the case". But let's not go back into this again. Point is, is there another photojournalist covering this sort of clash in the early hours of the morning with chaos and violence going on all around? Nope. And that's the main reason I value Nick's work. He goes to places others don't (including Thai journalists).

[whybother]

The vocational student security detail story was covered in The Nation ( but only a relatively short piece, saying that 200 students were involved and, for some reason, said they were wearing black shirts.

The story about the 17 year old is on the Bangkok post homepage ( not the app and not in the print edition...I think it's a breaking story).

Yes, it's confusing and will take time for it to be sorted. The 17 year old was not an RU student, but from a different technical college ( Bangkapi?)

Yes, found it now. Same as I heard before. His friend said he wasn't involved in the confrontation between the students and the red shirts but was attacked while driving to the stadium on Sunday afternoon. The two friends hid on the bus, but they heard someone shout 'fire!', the one that survived ran out but lost his friend. Tragic. RIP. The article is called 'Police confirm five Ramkhaemhaeng deaths' if anyone else is looking for it.

It still sounds a bit weird. "claiming the charred bones found on the bus" From everything I've seen and read, bodies just don't burn to bones. It started with "a skeleton missing arms and a skull" to "charred bones". It simply doesn't sound right.

[LomSak27]

After reading this one almost gets the idea that Abhisit and the Dems are taking responsibility for the 2010 shootings. how many was that ? oh right over a hundred

But no,

[Emptyset]

The vocational student security detail story was covered in The Nation ( but only a relatively short piece, saying that 200 students were involved and, for some reason, said they were wearing black shirts.

The story about the 17 year old is on the Bangkok post homepage ( not the app and not in the print edition...I think it's a breaking story).

Yes, it's confusing and will take time for it to be sorted. The 17 year old was not an RU student, but from a different technical college ( Bangkapi?)

Yes, found it now. Same as I heard before. His friend said he wasn't involved in the confrontation between the students and the red shirts but was attacked while driving to the stadium on Sunday afternoon. The two friends hid on the bus, but they heard someone shout 'fire!', the one that survived ran out but lost his friend. Tragic. RIP. The article is called 'Police confirm five Ramkhaemhaeng deaths' if anyone else is looking for it.

It still sounds a bit weird. "claiming the charred bones found on the bus" From everything I've seen and read, bodies just don't burn to bones. It started with "a skeleton missing arms and a skull" to "charred bones". It simply doesn't sound right.

It's very strange. I can't make head nor tail of either how he ended up that way, and how he came to be involved. We also have to bear in mind that his friend's story might not be that reliable, although there's no reason to disbelieve it either.

Here are pictures of the remains, it's a gruesome scene as you can imagine, so bear that in mind before you click.

[whybother]

Here are pictures of the remains, it's a gruesome scene as you can imagine, so bear that in mind before you click.

Sure it's the right pic?

[GrantSmith]

Yeah right. You know you wouldn't condone it if a Nation journalist, with their obvious anti-Thaksin bias, was attacked by reds and forced "off the case". But let's not go back into this again. Point is, is there another photojournalist covering this sort of clash in the early hours of the morning with chaos and violence going on all around? Nope. And that's the main reason I value Nick's work. He goes to places others don't (including Thai journalists).

Oh please, if Herr Nostitz had maintained any shred of journalistic integrity and not made rather indifferent claims in his articles, he wouldn't find himself so subject to ridicule!

He sold his soul, made his bed and all that..

Well, maybe he didn't and he truly believes what he writes is a true and honest account of what he experienced, but objective? Not in the slightest.

But along with Mr Head, his journalistic prowess will continue to be taken with a grain of salt in asserting their credibility, boy who cried wolf and all that...

Edited December 4, 2013 by GrantSmith

[Emptyset]

Here are pictures of the remains, it's a gruesome scene as you can imagine, so bear that in mind before you click.

Sure it's the right pic?

Pretty sure. It's from this picture thread on Pantip: http://pantip.com/topic/31321614 - again, there's some brutal pictures posted there. Are you sure bones can't burn to nothing? Surely they can if it's hot enough, or how does cremation work?

[whybother]

 

Here are pictures of the remains, it's a gruesome scene as you can imagine, so bear that in mind before you click.

 

 

 

Sure it's the right pic?

 

 

Pretty sure. It's from this picture thread on Pantip: http://pantip.com/topic/31321614 - again, there's some brutal pictures posted there. Are you sure bones can't burn to nothing? Surely they can if it's hot enough, or how does cremation work?

A cremation will burn the body and usually not the bones - they are dealt with later, but it has to be an incredibly hot fire to do that. I have seen pictures of bodies in house fires, car fires, plane fires, bush fires, and I've never seen the body burnt to the bones.

I could understand it being a reporting or translation issue if it was just one report, but many reports from different sources have mentioned bones. To me, it just doesn't sound right.

Sent from my phone ...

[whybother]

 

Here are pictures of the remains, it's a gruesome scene as you can imagine, so bear that in mind before you click.

 

 

 

Sure it's the right pic?

 

 

Pretty sure. It's from this picture thread on Pantip: http://pantip.com/topic/31321614 - again, there's some brutal pictures posted there. Are you sure bones can't burn to nothing? Surely they can if it's hot enough, or how does cremation work?

A cremation will burn the body and usually not the bones - they are dealt with later, but it has to be an incredibly hot fire to do that. I have seen pictures of bodies in house fires, car fires, plane fires, bush fires, and I've never seen the body burnt to the bones.

I could understand it being a reporting or translation issue if it was just one report, but many reports from different sources have mentioned bones. To me, it just doesn't sound right.

Sent from my phone ...

The first link just showed a single picture of them getting ready to burn a red shirt.

In the link to full article, if the black thing that the cop is pointing to is supposed to be a body, then I'm convinced its not human.

Sent from my phone ...

[Prbkk]

Thanks for posting the link. Gruesome but compelling viewing. I can't imagine the terror experienced by those young women when confronted by that feral scum

[wonder6281]

A cremation will burn the body and usually not the bones - they are dealt with later, but it has to be an incredibly hot fire to do that. I have seen pictures of bodies in house fires, car fires, plane fires, bush fires, and I've never seen the body burnt to the bones.

I could understand it being a reporting or translation issue if it was just one report, but many reports from different sources have mentioned bones. To me, it just doesn't sound right.

Sent from my phone ...

I concur in that burnt bodies do not burn bones to nothing in fires such as these. It is just another false story emanating from the blame the other side.

Who actually tells the truth in this country?

[Emptyset]

Pretty sure. It's from this picture thread on Pantip: http://pantip.com/topic/31321614 - again, there's some brutal pictures posted there. Are you sure bones can't burn to nothing? Surely they can if it's hot enough, or how does cremation work?

A cremation will burn the body and usually not the bones - they are dealt with later, but it has to be an incredibly hot fire to do that. I have seen pictures of bodies in house fires, car fires, plane fires, bush fires, and I've never seen the body burnt to the bones.

I could understand it being a reporting or translation issue if it was just one report, but many reports from different sources have mentioned bones. To me, it just doesn't sound right.

Sent from my phone ...

The first link just showed a single picture of them getting ready to burn a red shirt.

In the link to full article, if the black thing that the cop is pointing to is supposed to be a body, then I'm convinced its not human.

Sent from my phone ...

Sorry, you're right. I somehow managed to copy the wrong picture. Can't edit it now, but obviously this is the one I meant to post. I don't know. On the one hand, you've got the fact his friend says they were attacked and were hiding in the bus, the fact that he's missing, plus the fact that his things were found in the area. But it still seems very strange. Also the initial reports mentioned the bones as found 'hanging in the bus', didn't they? Whereas these remains are clearly outside the bus.

But if the other possibility is that it was an animal skeleton... that just doesn't seem very plausible either.