Racism?

[ColPyat]

Yesterday, after encountering a particularly racist taxi driver i have tried to explain that attitude to the wife and some relatives. Only problem is that i did not know the translation for 'racsim'. The only words i know that come close are for nationalism. My mate looked it up in the dictionary, and the only translation that came close is one of the endlessly long words that i won't even bother remembering as most Thais never heard of those words, nor would they understand them.

Does anybody here know of a word meaning, or coming closed to the term 'racism' that i could use in colloquial Thai?

[meadish_sweetball]

I have asked this of my Thai teachers and friends, and none have come up with a satisfactory short answer that matches "racism" in English.

You could try an explanation instead of a single word, perhaps along the lines of:

duu thuuk khon thii cheua chaat mai meuan gun =

(look down on people who are not of the same race as oneself)

...but obviously that is not altogether good as well.

Perhaps it would be beneficial to differentiate betwen "nationalism", "xenophobia", "prejudice" and other words in the same league... I feel "racism" is often used too carelessly as a catch-all in English.

[Losangels]

How about "yeed piew"? Meaning putting down somebody from another race/color.

[ColPyat]

duu thuuk khon thii cheua chaat mai meuan gun =

(look down on people who are not of the same race as oneself)

...but obviously that is not altogether good as well.

That may be the closest i can think of. Thanks.

Right now i am looking exactly for some catch all phrase similar to the use of *racism* in English.

But i find it somewhat weird that there are no simple terms for racism. I guess i have to have a chat about that one day with a linguist/anthropologist. It does somewhat add to the confusion of the discrepancies of ethnic based and nationalistic based "Thainess", and resulting consequences.

[Guest endure]

duu thuuk khon thii cheua chaat mai meuan gun =

(look down on people who are not of the same race as oneself)

...but obviously that is not altogether good as well.

That may be the closest i can think of. Thanks.

Right now i am looking exactly for some catch all phrase similar to the use of *racism* in English.

But i find it somewhat weird that there are no simple terms for racism. .

Perhaps because 'racism' in the way that you mean it is a western concept? Perhaps because in Thailand, as a country that lives and breathes status, looking down on other groups is part of the psyche?

[yoot]

เหยียดผิว yìat-pĭw - to have racial discrimination.

For the case of OP, you can just tell your wife that 'คนขับคนนี้เขาเป็นพวกเหยียดผิว', it's understandable.

[ColPyat]

Perhaps because 'racism' in the way that you mean it is a western concept? Perhaps because in Thailand, as a country that lives and breathes status, looking down on other groups is part of the psyche?

I don't buy into this west-east division. This is an oversimplification of reality which is so often used and abused by lazy minds and powers who prefer to keep a certain status quo in their favour.

Thailand is no indigenous tribal culture without any contact to the outside world. On the opposite - Thailand is a vast genetical and cultural mix between different cultures since long before written history.

*Racism* is a human concept, very much alive in the west and the east. There may be slight differences according to particular cultures and outside factors such as economical conditions.

Classism may be presently far stronger in Thailand than in modern western countries, but it is not too long ago that we had as much a rigid class sythem as Thailand still has.

Racism may be similar to the prevelant classism here, but there are clear differences. If you are from a different ethic group to a racist it does not make one bit of difference what social class you belong to - he will reject you based solely on your ethic background.

In many western countries the beginning of a public debate on racism is not too far in the past either. Remember - in the US only in the '60s the civil rights movement finished the segragation of blacks, in Germany you have had the Holocaust which was based on eugenics, which was seen as a "science" in most western countries.

What i am more interested in is the question if there is no term or clear definition yet in Thai language for *racism* does that also somewhat prevent a long overdue and very necessary public debate on this issue?

[yoot]

What i am more interested in is the question if there is no term or clear definition yet in Thai language for *racism* does that also somewhat prevent a long overdue and very necessary public debate on this issue?

Don't you think พวกเหยียดผิว (people who have discrimination or intolerance of people of other races) can be the clear definition for 'racism' ? Thai people use this term when talking about 'racism'.

[Guest endure]

Perhaps because 'racism' in the way that you mean it is a western concept? Perhaps because in Thailand, as a country that lives and breathes status, looking down on other groups is part of the psyche?

I don't buy into this west-east division. This is an oversimplification of reality which is so often used and abused by lazy minds and powers who prefer to keep a certain status quo in their favour.

Thailand is no indigenous tribal culture without any contact to the outside world. On the opposite - Thailand is a vast genetical and cultural mix between different cultures since long before written history.

*Racism* is a human concept, very much alive in the west and the east. There may be slight differences according to particular cultures and outside factors such as economical conditions.

Classism may be presently far stronger in Thailand than in modern western countries, but it is not too long ago that we had as much a rigid class sythem as Thailand still has.

I don't think that any western countries have ever had a rigid class system like Sakdina have they?

Edited May 10, 2006 by endure

[AlexLah]

Ok I asked my friends if they like foreigner ore not.

And she tell as long as you dress nice and have good manners it not matter if you are farang ore Thai. To her there is no racism, Thai people like other people that behave well, no matter if you are farang ore Thai.

So please remember just dress normal and act normal (followThai ways).

I mean just follow the ways your pappa and mamma learn you.

Just be nice to everybody and you will meet other nice people.

Cheers,

Alex

[Rikker]

I experienced an interesting mix of classism and positive racism when I was in Thailand doing research for my undergraduate thesis.

For part of my research I was gathering information on the inner-workings of the Royal Institute, and I was requesting interviews with members of Institute's Dictionary Revision Committee. I interviewed the chair of the committee, and he introduced me to the director of the Institute's Academy of Fine Arts, who gave me a list of telephone numbers of other members of the committee.

Now, as a young twenty-something, I was a bit intimidated to blind call people on this list, as they are all venerated academics who have taught for decades at Chula or Thammasat, etc. Not because I'm really intimidated by them, but because as a non-native Thai speaker at my current level of Thai ability, I find I am expected to follow the social customs of the class-based society much more so than I was when I was just learning the language. Anyhow, everyone I called was happy to meet with me, except one member. She is a คุณหญิง, and when I called she declined my request right away, saying there were plenty of other people on the committee who I should talk to, such as the committee chair, etc. Feeling I must not have communicated clearly, I tried again to explain myself, that I was interested in many points of view and that I had already interviewed with the committee chair just that same day, but she politely curtailed my efforts and ended the call.

I continued my interviews, most of which I did at the Royal Institute, and eventually sat in on some of the meetings of the Dictionary Revision Committee. Much to my surprise, at the first committee meeting I attended, when everyone started to arrive, this stately older woman approached me, apologizing for the incident on the phone the other day, saying that she had thought I was Thai, and that if she knew I was an American I could have interviewed her.

So I'm not sure to what degree this was sincere or face-saving, but it was a thoroughly intriguing experience for me. That's the positive racism I was referring to--apparent preferential treatment because of my race, versus the curt rejection of my request when she first thought I was Thai over the telephone.

Anyhow, take it as it is. I realize this doesn't necessarily relate to the discussion of the term for 'racism,' but I couldn't resist the urge to ponder the topic and share.

[Rikker]

And on the other hand, I've had many conversations with taxi drivers who openly tell me about how they won't pick up black people because they smell bad, talk loud, and/or want to listen to strange music in the cab.

[ColPyat]

I don't think that any western countries have ever had a rigid class system like Sakdina have they?

No, we only had slavery (abolished in Britain in 1833, in the US in 1865). In the US only the civil rights movement in the 1960's finished segregation.

In Europe under feudalism we had an extremely rigid class sythem with unfree servs at the bottom and the aristocracy at the top, which was decided by birth. This process of change only started with the french revolution and in some countries lasted until the end of WW1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom

Serfdom refers to the legal and economic status of some peasants under feudalism, specifically in the manorial (also known as seigneurialism) economic system. A serf is a laborer who is bound to the land. Serfs formed the lowest social class of the feudal society. Serfs differed from slaves in that serfs were allowed property for themselves and could not be sold apart from the land which they worked. Serfdom is the forced labour of serfs, on the fields of the privileged land owners, in return for protection and the right to work on their leased fields. Serfdom involved work not only on fields, but various agricultural-related works, like forestry, transportation (both land and river-based), work in craft and even in manufactures. Serfdom evolved from agricultural slavery of Roman Empire and spread through Europe around the 10th century. It was dominant during the Europe's Middle Ages. In England serfdom lasted up to the 1600's, in France until 1789. In most other European countries serfdom lasted until the early 19th century.

[ColPyat]

Don't you think พวกเหยียดผิว (people who have discrimination or intolerance of people of other races) can be the clear definition for 'racism' ? Thai people use this term when talking about 'racism'.

Sorry, i can't read Thai, i only speak it. Would you mind giving me the romanised letters please? The wife sleeps already.

[Rikker]

๋๋ีPaste it into www.thai2english.com. You can choose the romanization scheme of your choice.

[Kathe]

What i am more interested in is the question if there is no term or clear definition yet in Thai language for *racism* does that also somewhat prevent a long overdue and very necessary public debate on this issue?

Don't you think พวกเหยียดผิว (people who have discrimination or intolerance of people of other races) can be the clear definition for 'racism' ? Thai people use this term when talking about 'racism'.

Khun Yoot pointed us the correct word in thai *เหยียดผิว* racialism or we call *ชาตินิยม* nationalism.

คนขับแท็กซี่เหยียดผิวไม่อยากรับผู้โดยสารผิวดํา

[Kathe]

I experienced an interesting mix of classism and positive racism when I was in Thailand doing research for my undergraduate thesis.

For part of my research I was gathering information on the inner-workings of the Royal Institute, and I was requesting interviews with members of Institute's Dictionary Revision Committee. I interviewed the chair of the committee, and he introduced me to the director of the Institute's Academy of Fine Arts, who gave me a list of telephone numbers of other members of the committee.

Now, as a young twenty-something, I was a bit intimidated to blind call people on this list, as they are all venerated academics who have taught for decades at Chula or Thammasat, etc. Not because I'm really intimidated by them, but because as a non-native Thai speaker at my current level of Thai ability, I find I am expected to follow the social customs of the class-based society much more so than I was when I was just learning the language. Anyhow, everyone I called was happy to meet with me, except one member. She is a คุณหญิง, and when I called she declined my request right away, saying there were plenty of other people on the committee who I should talk to, such as the committee chair, etc. Feeling I must not have communicated clearly, I tried again to explain myself, that I was interested in many points of view and that I had already interviewed with the committee chair just that same day, but she politely curtailed my efforts and ended the call.

I continued my interviews, most of which I did at the Royal Institute, and eventually sat in on some of the meetings of the Dictionary Revision Committee. Much to my surprise, at the first committee meeting I attended, when everyone started to arrive, this stately older woman approached me, apologizing for the incident on the phone the other day, saying that she had thought I was Thai, and that if she knew I was an American I could have interviewed her.

So I'm not sure to what degree this was sincere or face-saving, but it was a thoroughly intriguing experience for me. That's the positive racism I was referring to--apparent preferential treatment because of my race, versus the curt rejection of my request when she first thought I was Thai over the telephone.

Anyhow, take it as it is. I realize this doesn't necessarily relate to the discussion of the term for 'racism,' but I couldn't resist the urge to ponder the topic and share.

This could be * ถือตัว * * คนละชั้น* * คนละระดับ* แบ่งชนชั้นวรรณะ* classism, positive racism. Didnt we learn from the old England ? We did learn many things in the old days from western.

[Johpa]

I don't think that any western countries have ever had a rigid class system like Sakdina have they?

Sakdina is often translated as Feudalism. Feudalism was a pretty rigid and stratified class system. And I believe the UK still maintains a House of Lords.

[Guest endure]

I don't think that any western countries have ever had a rigid class system like Sakdina have they?

Sakdina is often translated as Feudalism. Feudalism was a pretty rigid and stratified class system. And I believe the UK still maintains a House of Lords.

The UK has never had a system whereby every member of its population had a very specific place in society in the same way as Sakdina. The modern House of Lords is nothing like the old feudal version. Only 92 of its 730ish members are there by inheritance and it does a good job of holding the Governemtn to account. I'd prefer if we had two elected houses as you do in the US but the Lords has some pretty bright folks whose wisdom we would probably miss out on if they were all elected.

[ColPyat]

What i am more interested in is the question if there is no term or clear definition yet in Thai language for *racism* does that also somewhat prevent a long overdue and very necessary public debate on this issue?

Don't you think พวกเหยียดผิว (people who have discrimination or intolerance of people of other races) can be the clear definition for 'racism' ? Thai people use this term when talking about 'racism'.

Khun Yoot pointed us the correct word in thai *เหยียดผิว* racialism or we call *ชาตินิยม* nationalism.

คนขับแท็กซี่เหยียดผิวไม่อยากรับผู้โดยสารผิวดํา

Yes, it appears to be the right expression, the wife has confirmed it as well. Thanks a lot. "Chartniyom" - nationalism is a term i am nowadays using regularly, unfortunately. I just hope that i won't need to use "yiat piuw" that often as well.

[ColPyat]

I don't think that any western countries have ever had a rigid class system like Sakdina have they?

Sakdina is often translated as Feudalism. Feudalism was a pretty rigid and stratified class system. And I believe the UK still maintains a House of Lords.

The UK has never had a system whereby every member of its population had a very specific place in society in the same way as Sakdina. The modern House of Lords is nothing like the old feudal version. Only 92 of its 730ish members are there by inheritance and it does a good job of holding the Governemtn to account. I'd prefer if we had two elected houses as you do in the US but the Lords has some pretty bright folks whose wisdom we would probably miss out on if they were all elected.

As you can see in the wikipedia link i supplied - the UK had institutionalised serfdom until the 1600s, and privileges of the aristocracy far longer, such as an automatical commision as officers in the armed forces as an aristocratic birthright.

Most other European countries had these institutions far longer, have kept certain aristocratic privileges until the end of WW1.

Yes, also we in the west had equally rigid class/cast systhems in the past.

[Rikker]

Sometimes Thailand's classism does get tiresome for those of us in the present, though.

[TVmonitor]

I don't think that any western countries have ever had a rigid class system like Sakdina have they?

Sakdina is often translated as Feudalism. Feudalism was a pretty rigid and stratified class system. And I believe the UK still maintains a House of Lords.

The UK has never had a system whereby every member of its population had a very specific place in society in the same way as Sakdina. The modern House of Lords is nothing like the old feudal version. Only 92 of its 730ish members are there by inheritance and it does a good job of holding the Governemtn to account. I'd prefer if we had two elected houses as you do in the US but the Lords has some pretty bright folks whose wisdom we would probably miss out on if they were all elected.

As you can see in the wikipedia link i supplied - the UK had institutionalised serfdom until the 1600s, and privileges of the aristocracy far longer, such as an automatical commision as officers in the armed forces as an aristocratic birthright.

Most other European countries had these institutions far longer, have kept certain aristocratic privileges until the end of WW1.

Yes, also we in the west had equally rigid class/cast systhems in the past.

most countries did and the traces are very small....not so in Thailand; it is difficult for westerners to grasp that slavery was abolished in Thailand in the 20th century.

modern chattels and apparent life-style hide the existence of a very different societal structure from the west.

[oldsparrow]

Try William Skinner's book on Chinese in Thailand. He was a Prof. at Cornell. Some information on Thai political/social background and foreigner. Once Chineses were foreigners too LOL

[loong]

Some suggestions

การเหยียดเชื้อชาติ

gaan yìat chéua châat

Racism

การเหยียดสีผิว

gaan yìat sĕe-pĭw

Racialism

ผู้เหยียดผิว

pôo yìat-pĭw

Racist

[robinhill]

Ok I asked my friends if they like foreigner ore not.

And she tell as long as you dress nice and have good manners it not matter if you are farang ore Thai. To her there is no racism, Thai people like other people that behave well, no matter if you are farang ore Thai.

So please remember just dress normal and act normal (followThai ways).

I mean just follow the ways your pappa and mamma learn you.

Just be nice to everybody and you will meet other nice people.

Cheers,

Alex

I agree that "behaviour breeds behaviour", but you can dress as smart as you like and be as polite as you like, but in Thailand if you have white skin (are not Thai) you will still be charged 5x, 10x or even 20x the price of a Thai person to enter a National Park area, whether you are a tourist or whether you live here and are trying to take your (Thai) family for a day out. It may be possible to pay Thai rates if you have a work permit, but if you are not working here and only living here you are discriminated against. Nevertheless, whether tourist or not, to charge a different rate to different people is racial discrimination as far as I am concerned, and I find such policies extremely offensive and backward-looking.

I have lived in Thailand for several years, have spent a considerable amount of money here, have contributed to charities, etc, but still I am not treated the same as Thai people and can never have the same human rights which they have (buying land, working, etc). To me, all these "Nationalistic" policies which claim to "protect" Thai people actually discriminate against foreigners and therefore, in my eyes, are racist in this respect. Such policies place barriers in the way of integration and perpetuate a culture of racism which permeates throughout Thai society, such that many Thais consider that, because it's their country they should have more rights than foreigners, which perhaps explains why many Thais consider it not so inappropriate to push in front of foreigners who are queuing, and why this is often accepted by the Thai person behind the counter too.

I originate from England (we have a reputation for being the world's best queuers by the way). If someone were to try and charge someone of a different race a different price in England, whether for goods in a shop or fee for a National Park, then they could be taken to court and sued for racial discrimination. As far as I know this would be the case for many European countries as well as the USA.

When I was in England the price to enter a National Park was the same for everyone, tourist or resident, black or white. It was, however, possible to buy a yearly membership to the National Trust, which allowed you free entry to all National Parks. So, if you were a resident and used the parks regularly, then you could save money by becoming a member and paying an annual fee. This membership was open to anyone, not just those with a British passport, even tourists who might be visiting National Parks every day of their holiday and be able to save money by paying the annual subscription rate.

I would like to see Thailand implement a similar system for its National Parks. I would also like to see Thailand follow the example set by many western countries in banishing all forms of racism wherever it remains. However, because it is very difficult to obtain Thai citizenship, there are precious few Thai citizens in Thailand who would object to the law as it stands at present, because it does not discriminate against them. However, there are thousands and thousands of us "foreigners" who live here, but can not get Thai citizenship so easily, and therefore can not object as citizens to the government, and as non-citizens with no voting rights our views carry no weight whatsoever.

Thailand is very keen for us to come here and invest lots of money from abroad which boosts the economy and creates more jobs and wealth for the country, but for all we do for the economy and for the needy by donations to charitable causes we are never treated as equals.

Essentially, the Thai government, perhaps acting out of fear, paranoia and greed, maintains an inward looking nationalistic policy which perpetuates racism. In my opinion this is a shameful way to behave, and is not in line with international policy.

Thai people fail to recognize the racial discrimination within Thai law, and even if they are aware of it they fail to act to denounce it since in their view it offers them protection and privilege.

It works both ways in Thailand too though. I used to stay in Koh Samui and was appalled at the attitude from The Boat House hotel in Choeng Mon who denied Thai people entry to the resort to visit friends who were staying there whilst allowing foreigners to do so.

Now in stating all of the above I am not saying that Thais are racist people. I have several Thai friends and I would not say that any of them are racist. In fact, I have found them to be some of the most kind and friendly people I have ever met. It is the government policy which is racist in my opinion and in maintaining such racist policies it helps to perpetuate racism within Thai culture.

We could get into an argument over semantics and claim that Thai policy is not racist but Nationalistic, but I am stating my opinion here and no doubt other people's opinion will differ.

Essentially I am in favour of equal rights for all, no matter what background, race, social status, etc, and I believe that it is the responsibility of us all (Thai citizens included) to stand up and speak out against policies which do not support equal rights.

[RickBradford]

... in Thailand if you have white skin (are not Thai) you will still be charged 5x, 10x or even 20x the price of a Thai person to enter a National Park area ...

You're not being overcharged; Thai nationals are subsidized by their government to travel to National Parks and so on.

Your contradictory statement about "white skin = not Thai" confuses the issue. If you make the mistake of touring Ayuttaya's piles of rubble, you will find that the price for a Thai is 10Bt, farang 50Bt, and Japanese (travelling in groups) end up paying more than double that, though they can get the farang price if they travel solo (information courtesy of a Japanese backpacker I met there.)

The train fare from Hua Lumpong to Ayuttaya is 15Bt for farang and free for Thais. Overcharging of infinity percent :D

The main problem (acknowledged by Thais) is that the entry money collected should be used for the upkeep and improvement of the Park in question. You only need to travel to Koh Samet to realise that the higher the Park entrance fee (most of the island is National Park), the filthier it will be.

[robinhill]

... in Thailand if you have white skin (are not Thai) you will still be charged 5x, 10x or even 20x the price of a Thai person to enter a National Park area ...

You're not being overcharged; Thai nationals are subsidized by their government to travel to National Parks and so on.

Your contradictory statement about "white skin = not Thai" confuses the issue.

Hi there,

So, the price that the Thais pay represents a subsidy does it? OK... perhaps that may be a valid point and we should not feel too bad about paying the "full" non-subsidized price, but nevertheless I still think that to be fair to all and in order not to offend those non-Thais who live here, or indeed those who visit the country as tourists, the same price should be levied to all. After all, if Thai Nationals are being subsidized, then we are not only asked to pay the full price, but are also indirectly paying such subsidy via the taxes which are levied on the goods which we purchase here in Thailand, or indeed via the tax on any income earned. So subsidizing the Thai National price is in this respect a double-whammy for foreigners.

"White skin (not Thai)" was not meant to confuse the issue but to illustrate it more clearly. I accept that in some instances this term IS contradictory in that there are some Thais (those who avoid the sun) who have pale skin. I heard of an instance once where they wanted to charge a Thai national the farang price.... why? Because he had pale skin and they did not believe that he was a Thai national. This can also happen to people whose parents are of mixed race because their appearance is not that of a normal Thai, and if they have lived abroad for much of their life they might not speak Thai so well either. So,... the point which I was attempting to make was that the price levied is supposed to be according to Nationality, but is in practice sometimes made according to one's racial appearance, until proved otherwise.

I hope that the above provides clarification of why I used this (sometimes contradictory) term.

[oldsparrow]

So,... the point which I was attempting to make was that the price levied is supposed to be according to Nationality, but is in practice sometimes made according to one's racial appearance, until proved otherwise.

****

For national park or zoo that charge foreigner more they issue different receipt. My friends were born in the US both parents are 100% Thai. They are American, having western look and were charge foreigner rate too.

And of course, for service that don't issue receipt like beach vender, richer look more, than the white look, leads to higer price

[oldsparrow]

robinhill

***

To begin with the tourist treatment:

http://www.vfs-uk-th.com/visafees.aspx

I think this UK visa fee rate surpasses the actual paperwork cost. AND the worst point is that if the application fail we can't reimburse, UK pocket the fee anyway. Different countries have different way to make profit.