Bombs targeting Christians on Christmas Day kill 49 in Baghdad

[khwaam sook]

Religion poisons everything

No. Crazy, violent loser lunatics poisin everything. Religiion or no religion, normal people don't act this way.

I don't want to turn this thread in to a debate about religion, but the sectarian violence exhibited in Iraq and around the world can not!! only attributed craziness, perhaps it was the craziness that led to religious beliefs, but it certainly was the religion that justified the bombing as a moral action in the mind of the believer.

The late Christopher Hitchens said it best when he set the following challenge:

"name me a moral action committed by a believer or an ethical statement uttered by one, that could not have been made by a non-believer?'

"but if you were asked to name an evil action preformed or a vile statement made by someone attributable only to their religion or faith, no one would hesitate, you already thought of a few"

god invented religion, bombs and guns so that the lunatic fringe could eradicate themselves. don't stand in the way of gods wisdom.

[folium]

Okay, Folium, here's a little list to work through - There may be local explanations for each of the following bloody borders, some may appear not to be Islam's fault, but if Countries were motorists wanting to put their neighbor Mr Islam onto their car insurance I think the premiums quoted would cause a swift change of mind.

Uighurs vs. Han Chinese in Chinas Xinjiang province

Moro Muslims vs. Christian Filipinos on Mindanao in the Philippines

Thai Buddhists vs Muslim separatists in Thailand's three most southerly provinces

Muslim Indonesia vs. Catholic East Timor

Muslims vs. Buddhists in Burma

Hindus vs. Muslims in India, Pakistan and Kashmir

Muslims vs. Jews in Israel-Palestine

Muslims vs. Coptic Christians in Egypt

Islamic militants go shopping in Kenya

Muslims vs. Christians and animists in South Sudan

Muslim Yoruba vs. Christian Ibo in Nigeria

Al Qaeda in the Islamic magreb in Mali

Muslim Bosniaks and Kosovars vs. Orthodox Christian Serbs in the Balkans

Turks vs. Armenians

Muslim Kurds and Arabs vs. Assyrian Christians in Iraq and

Chechnya vs Russia

P.S Anyone care to add to the list I'm sure I've missed some (Edit to add Kenya)

Which of these qualify as a "war caused solely by religion in the last 50 years"?

If you want to talk about "bloody borders" almost every one of the conflicts you mention revolves around messy borders drawn by remote colonial powers with little consideration given for these lines of colonial convenience.

PS any luck on the conquest of a non Muslim majority country by your favourite cultural enrichers in the last 100 years?

I see you refuse to play insurance underwriter, can't blame you for ducking that one. I would observe that Christians in Bethlehem are no longer the majority there and have been leaving in droves, indeed perhaps you can name me any middle eastern nation where the number of Christians has increased in the last 40 years, as oppose to a steep decline everywhere else in the region?

P.S There is one.

Bethlehem is an unappealing dump, can't blame anyone for wanting to leave.

Re increasing Christian populations I presume you are talking about The Oman, Qatar (10% Christian), Kuwait, UAE(12%), Bahrain, all of which have seen their Christian populations grow considerably in the last 40 years. In Lebanon the absolute number of Christians has also probably increased despite large numbers adding to the Lebanese diaspora. Bit hard to be definite given the lack of a census since 1926 for obvious reasons.

For Arab Israeli Christians, being the minority of a minority also makes their lives somewhat problematic.

Edited December 28, 2013 by folium

[sirineou]

Okay, Folium, here's a little list to work through - There may be local explanations for each of the following bloody borders, some may appear not to be Islam's fault, but if Countries were motorists wanting to put their neighbor Mr Islam onto their car insurance I think the premiums quoted would cause a swift change of mind.

Uighurs vs. Han Chinese in Chinas Xinjiang province

Moro Muslims vs. Christian Filipinos on Mindanao in the Philippines

Thai Buddhists vs Muslim separatists in Thailand's three most southerly provinces

Muslim Indonesia vs. Catholic East Timor

Muslims vs. Buddhists in Burma

Hindus vs. Muslims in India, Pakistan and Kashmir

Muslims vs. Jews in Israel-Palestine

Muslims vs. Coptic Christians in Egypt

Islamic militants go shopping in Kenya

Muslims vs. Christians and animists in South Sudan

Muslim Yoruba vs. Christian Ibo in Nigeria

Al Qaeda in the Islamic magreb in Mali

Muslim Bosniaks and Kosovars vs. Orthodox Christian Serbs in the Balkans

Turks vs. Armenians

Muslim Kurds and Arabs vs. Assyrian Christians in Iraq and

Chechnya vs Russia

P.S Anyone care to add to the list I'm sure I've missed some (Edit to add Kenya)

Which of these qualify as a "war caused solely by religion in the last 50 years"?

If you want to talk about "bloody borders" almost every one of the conflicts you mention revolves around messy borders drawn by remote colonial powers with little consideration given for these lines of colonial convenience.

PS any luck on the conquest of a non Muslim majority country by your favourite cultural enrichers in the last 100 years?

A glass of water contaminated with poison does not stop from being a glass of water. It means that now it has taken a quality that makes it dangerous to drink. Initially It will soothe your thirst but eventually it will kill you. or at least make you very sick.

are there qualities to water that can kill you also? sure there are ,,you can drown in it you can choke from it etc.

But put a little poison in it and ........

Religion poisons everything,

it does not change the nature of a thing, it just makes it much more insidious and dangerous

Of-course wars don't happen purely for religious reasons, no sane person would suggest that it does,

I am sure evil would, and does exist in secular society. but it sure gives it that extra oomph, that goes far beyond political ambitions.

To show you how religion poisons everything,let's not talk about sex,health, politics etc,

lets take the most benign of human activities, Charity

In its purest secular form it occurs for altruistic reasons,

inject religion in it and now it involves proselytizing, and celestial rewards.

To that degree religion poisons even the most benign of human activities, Charity.

[Rumpole]

Bethlehem is an unappealing dump, can't blame anyone for wanting to leave.

Re increasing Christian populations I presume you are talking about The Oman, Qatar (10% Christian), Kuwait, UAE(12%), Bahrain, all of which have seen their Christian populations grow considerably in the last 40 years.

While I agree that the present governments and many of the nationals of the Gulf States you mention are comparatively tolerant of other faiths, the reported increase in the number of Christians is entirely due to the influx of temporary migrant workers, mainly from the Philippines and the Sub-Continent, none of whom will ever be granted citizenship or any form of permanent settlement (only a select few Muslim immigrants - mostly other Arabs - are allowed to become nationals).

In 17 years of living and working in the region, I never once met a single Gulf Arab who professed to being a Christian, and only ever heard vague expat rumours of the occasional secretive conversion. Societal disapproval and ostracism, let alone Islamic apostasy laws which would almost certainly be applied in Qatar, Kuwait and UAE, mean that it would be a brave local indeed who would publicly admit to having renounced Islam. Despite the relative tolerance in allowing adherents of other faiths to quietly practice their religious beliefs, any proselytizing by non-Muslims or attempts to convert a Muslim would result in swift retribution from the authorities, including immediate expulsion from the country or even possible imprisonment.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Rumpole

[GeorgeKi]

The Christmas massacre of Iraqui Christians is part of a systematic assault on Middle Eastern (& African) Christians that is currently taking place in Iraq, Syria & Egypt. The US did not invade Syria or Egypt yet Muslims are massacring & persecuting Christians there as in Iraq. This is about Islam not the US, George Bush etc.. Bizarre this simple verifiable fact (try Goggle) cannot be mentioned.

[sirineou]

A glass of water contaminated with poison does not stop from being a glass of water. It means that now it has taken a quality that makes it dangerous to drink. Initially It will soothe your thirst but eventually it will kill you. or at least make you very sick.

are there qualities to water that can kill you also? sure there are ,,you can drown in it you can choke from it etc.

But put a little poison in it and ........

Religion poisons everything,

it does not change the nature of a thing, it just makes it much more insidious and dangerous

Of-course wars don't happen purely for religious reasons, no sane person would suggest that it does,

I am sure evil would, and does exist in secular society. but it sure gives it that extra oomph, that goes far beyond political ambitions.

To show you how religion poisons everything,let's not talk about sex,health, politics etc,

lets take the most benign of human activities, Charity

In its purest secular form it occurs for altruistic reasons,

inject religion in it and now it involves proselytizing, and celestial rewards.

To that degree religion poisons even the most benign of human activities, Charity.

So all charitable acts performed by religious people involves "proselytizing and celestial rewards"...what a truly sad view of humanity. I almost feel sorry for you....

Again with the feeling sorry for me, It must be a christian thing. I must be gtowing on you because now you "almost" feel sorry for me,

where did I say that all charitable acts of religion involves proselytizing and celestial rewards,

I said it involves, no where did I say It involves every time. Stop reading between the lines, there is plenty for you to read on the lines.

But you have to admit that with in religion there are heavenly rewards for good acts and eternal damnation threats for bad, I am sure the 9/11 terrorists, and the people who set the bombs, were thinking that what they were doing was good and moral and were heading to heaven to collect their many virgins, one was not good enough for them,they need many, perhaps a result of their religiously represented sexuality, an other way religion poisons everything.

Some kind of heaven for the virgins hey. Think about that.

By the way, present some viable arguments to support your position instead of filling sorry for my self.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed.

[Steely Dan]

Here is an interesting Washington post article addressing just why religion seems to be so problematic in the Middle East.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/michael-gerson-can-muslim-lands-learn-to-tolerate-christianity/2013/12/26/912d9162-6e6d-11e3-aecc-85cb037b7236_story.html

p.s The article also mentions the recent statements of concern for Middle eastern Christians by the Pope, Prince Charles and the Archbishop of Canterbury perhaps 2014 will see the West waking up from it's PC induced slumber.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Steely Dan

[F430murci]

While done in the name of religion or honor, this stuff has nothing to do with religion or honor. More or less insecure little men that deep down inside know how pathetic they truly are. Even more pathetic is their need to blame their ridiculous acts on either religion or the people to whom the acts are directed. Real men would at least have the balls to call it what it is rather than spread the blame to everything but themselves.

-----

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Images:Violence_Against_Women

[sirineou]

While done in the name of religion or honor, this stuff has nothing to do with religion or honor. More or less insecure little men that deep down inside know how pathetic they truly are. Even more pathetic is their need to blame their ridiculous acts on either religion or the people to whom the acts are directed. Real men would at least have the balls to call it what it is rather than spread the blame to everything but themselves.

-----

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Images:Violence_Against_Women

Let me see if I understand you correctly, you are saying that a suicide bomber , who makes a video telling every one that his motivations are religious and the he is seeking martyrdom , as his last act in life before he blows him self up and and tenth of others with him, He or she, is really lying and he is doing it for other reasons,

You are saying that they blow them selves up because of some deep seeded insecurity,And that it does not take balls to blow your self up, for something you believe, regardless how misguided,

Not the kind of ball that it takes for real man to anonymously post post this type of dribble on an internet forum

Is that what you are saying?

[F430murci]

While done in the name of religion or honor, this stuff has nothing to do with religion or honor. More or less insecure little men that deep down inside know how pathetic they truly are. Even more pathetic is their need to blame their ridiculous acts on either religion or the people to whom the acts are directed. Real men would at least have the balls to call it what it is rather than spread the blame to everything but themselves.

-----

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Images:Violence_Against_Women

Let me see if I understand you correctly, you are saying that a suicide bomber , who makes a video telling every one that his motivations are religious and the he is seeking martyrdom , as his last act in life before he blows him self up and and tenth of others with him, He or she, is really lying and he is doing it for other reasons,

You are saying that they blow them selves up because of some deep seeded insecurity,And that it does not take balls to blow your self up, for something you believe, regardless how misguided,

Not the kind of ball that it takes for real man to anonymously post post this type of dribble on an internet forum

Is that what you are saying?

Yep, they do it out of anger, hate, resentment, jealousy or a whole host of human motivations that are not necessarily religious motivations.

These people are insane, they hate our freedom, resent our way of life. You chose not to get it because you have a resentment about religion and want it to about so you can blame religion.

-----

Q: In some places in the Middle East, [the Sept. 11 terrorist attack] has not been greeted as something to be ashamed of.

A: Not surprising. Look, the fundamental question is, why did this happen? The American people, I think, now understand what we've written about in our report. There are large numbers of people in this world who don't like us, who would like to hurt us, who don't like our culture, don't like our freedom, don't like our kind of government, don't like our foreign policy, don't like us at all -- and given the chance to hurt us, they will. Those are the plain, unvarnished, unhappy facts.

. . .

Q: But [the leadership] aren't the suicide bombers. The people who are piloting the airlines, the people who are blowing themselves up -- they believe that we are the enemy. Are they just insane? Are you saying we just have a bunch of insane people out there?

A: Oh, I think they are essentially borderline insane; absolutely. To do what they did? Of course they are.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/terrorism/saudi/whyus.html

Edited December 29, 2013 by F430murci