Social Crusade

[ASIC]

Just had a long, and may I add - frightning, debate with some Thai friends about the social crusade. They all think it's absolutely necessary that kids stay home after 10pm, that the bars close at midnight, etc. etc. and that Toxin is a great hero.

The reason, they argued, was that western influence on Thailand is too great. Thai moral values are under thread. Thai culture is disappearing. When they were kids children respected their elders, there were no gang rapes, no drugs, no sex, no rock and roll. They had no chicken flu here, either.

Anyway, what I heard today is a exactly what the morons in power in Singapore keeps repeating. The West is to blame for all ills in Asia. Western values are not suitable here. Asian democracy is different from western democracy.

Basically they are saying, let's not take responsibility for the mess we got ourselves into. Let's blame someone else. We are not responsible for what goes on in our own country. We are not responsible for bringing up our own children to be good law-abiding citizens.

I'm sure a better school system could have helped teach children right from wrong. I also believe parents should take responsibility for their own children's upbringing. Every day I see some idiot letting his kids do things and excuse it with "he's just a kid". Other peoples kids are annoying, but my kid is perfect and I give him everything he wants, and I let him do everything he wants.

Finally, why aren't the men in brown doing their job? If these hooligans and gang-rapers were afraid of getting caught, if their case in court were processed swift and fair, would there be so much trouble? However, the Thais in my deck of the woods don't seem agree....

It sadens me to hear that in Thailand the West is famous for prostitution, corruption, drugs and dictatorial leadership and that Thailand is completely innocent and merely a victim of western influences. Thank God for Toxin. Finally someone here to set it straight.

ASIC

[stumonster]

and of course he has no say in itv

where every soapy has a gun, mercedes and designer tweeds

education is the answer...but only if you teach them to think for themselves

but that might just defeat the purpose...

[Bob Chittie]

I hate to say it, but I kind of get the impression that Thaksin could be saying the exact opposite, something like,

' We need better education and more jobs and at the same time we need parents to be responsible for their kids and the police to uphold the rule of law and we will not sacrifice the financial welfare of a couple million people and the personal freedoms of millions more in order to pursue a foolish moral crusade where the government decides what is good, right and proper for grown adults. I have studied long and hard the results of similar early closing times in Singapore and the resulting decline in tourism and the ultimate decision to extend closing times to 4am in certain areas. We will learn from our neighbours and we will not pursue a course of action that blatantly contradicts lessons learned by others in this region. Finally, every Thai must come to understand the notion of personal responsibility. The government is not here to control and monitor your life. It is not your mother, father or teacher and will not behave as such.'

And the same Thais who are nodding their heads in agreement with Thaksin's moral crusade would continue nodding their heads. My experience is that as long at the messenger is wealthy, influential, educated (helps if you got a degree in the US or UK, even if its in Kentucky and Texas) and appears to know what he is talking about, the vast majority of Thais will give him their support. The majority of Thais do not seem to be taught to look at an argument objectively and question its merits. This is apparent right down to primary school where the students never raise their hands and ask a question. The teacher speaks and you listen and that's that. It is truly a shame.

[mrmnp]

There is no question that the lock-step to the right in Thailand under Thaksin is the precursor to much trouble in the future. Saddam, Hitler, if fact all dictators, started this way. Creating an external threat where one doesn't exist or emphasizing one that does exist (war on terrorism) allows for a firmer grip on the populace with a justification that it is necessary for security and defense. Thaksin has no better blueprint for his move to the right than George Bush and his neocons.

Thaksin learned alot from George Bush's home state where, incidentally, they legally execute more people than anyplace on earth.

Muzzling the press is just another step in the move to the right. We all know the truism about what happens when we fail to learn from the past!!

[NedKelly]

meanwhile the rich kids all go o/s for their education.

the rich get richer the poor get the picture !! (midnight oil)

[Dove]

With materialism, parents work two jobs to make ends meet. So they don't see their families. they work late they work through wekends. Civil servants work through many policies that take much of their time at the cost of family life. The worker is threatened, he is afraid to lose his job. Thailand is a developing society, and much has to do with keeping up with the Jones. How then do parents have time for their children. Children on the otherhand are under plenty of peer pressure and many lose their inocence doing so and go on to sex and drugs.

What is needed is national education for all to teach that family values is more important than owning a car or DVD player or that owning that nice dress etc. There is need for a policy for familyies to spend time together.

Perhaps the civil service should make an example of being more efficient and cutting their working hours so that parents can spend time with their kids and kids do not have to grow up in their parent's office, if they do at least have a children centre. If the civil service can start the model the commercial world should follow.

[sabaijai]

My experience is that as long at the messenger is wealthy, influential, educated (helps if you got a degree in the US or UK, even if its in Kentucky and Texas) and appears to know what he is talking about, the vast majority of Thais will give him their support. The majority of Thais do not seem to be taught to look at an argument objectively and question its merits

that's the crux of it ...

no one in leadership seems capable of objective argument either, despite their overseas degrees. thaksin/purachai/thai rak thai haven't put forth any evidence whatsoever to suggest that early bar closings have any possibility of curbing drinking/drugs/sex, etc, nor any evidence that cracking down hard on dope users and small-time peddlers will have any effect other than driving the price of dope up and thus making dealing a more attractive occupation than ever ... plenty of expert reports on these topics are available from around the world but they don't seem interested ...

but if thailand were a rational place would we be here?

[bmanly]

As far as I am concerned it is called blind "Nationalism". It is a kind of conditioning in believing you are the best and only the Thai knows best for Thai regardless of the facts. All countries have this blind Nationalism same as we had in Australia and probably still have.

We had a right wing politician come to prominance in 1996 who was quoted in parliament saying "we are in danger of being swamped by Asians" and "look at who is commiting all these crimes, Asian gangs" and "we never had home invasions until all these Asians came here". It was mostly all wrong and this particular party would not even consider the true facts from the Australian Bureau of Statistics. But all those crys of foreigners ruining the place got that politician a job all beit an ineffective one. In the end though that politician was thrown out never to return. At least in Australia we question every single statement and disect every bit of bullsh*t these idiots come out with.

So until Thais start to question everything rather than sitting on their proverbial hides saying mai pen rai then nothing will change. First step is admitting you have a problem, the next step is fixing it. Blaming those dark western influences is just more of that Nationalist conditioning. By the way, lets see how your friends would react if we starting taking away those western influences. How would they live without their mobile phones, cars, Tesco Lotus stores, sattelite TV etc etc, there would be a civil uprising.

[britmaveric]

Hmmm Western Influences are the cause of all that ails Thailand? Now if that isn't a backward thinking excuse.

Problem that ails Thailand is low standard of wages which makes it difficult to earn an honest living. Until this issue is resolved I doubt any of the Thai Govt percieved problems will be solved!

[meadish_sweetball]

Problem that ails Thailand is low standard of wages which makes it difficult to earn an honest living. Until this issue is resolved I doubt any of the Thai Govt percieved problems will be solved!

I was going to cheer you for that, but then I thought again.

I think the main problem is that because of the nature of the world market, they can't raise their wages all that much - they would not be able to compete for companies to establish themselves here - and like any other country, they need foreign investment in order to prosper. Advanced companies here in Thailand have spinn off effects which will create more knowledge and competence in the country - which is absolutely necessary unless the country is to remain as rice producers for the rest of the world.

Now, depite the fact that labour unions may have a dampening effect on the economy, I have never seen a place where they would be as useful as here, where people in low-paid jobs can bum around, and those who want to maintain a position in middle management or be able to climb the hierarchy have to work extremely hard, and overtime is a concept not even heard of - no matter how much you sacrifice for the company.

I see the lack of a questioning attitude towards authority, and the unwillingness to get into conflict with others as major problem areas, workwise. It creates lots of gossip, bad atmosphere and intrigues in the work place.

So I agree that number 1 is to somehow enable parents to spend time with their kids, or for parents to demand this right (which is always the best). Unless kids receive a solid upbringing from their parents, there is not much school can do.

A teacher is responsible for 20 - 40 kids - how is he/she supposed to find the time to target kids with problems, and teach the rest something worthwhile at the same time?

[tutsiwarrior]

we could look at the question of responsibility with regard to presently perceived social problems. My experience in SE Asia is that no one takes responsibility for anything as that would mean that one would have to deal with the resultant criticism when one fukcs up. One would therefore be in a position to lose face when the sh*t came down.

Always got to be in a position to point the finger at someone or something else.

[Dove]

Unfortunately, the current goverment emphasizes too much on wealth, they are are harping on it for this is how they gain popularity. Money talks, but the price of social woes is very great.

We can do our part, and tell a Thai friend about it because we care and make sure that they understand and believe. if each friend in turn tells two other friends who would tell two others we would end up with a lot of people who could have their values changed and we all could live in a better society.

We need someone in this forum who can design the perfect message that we can pass on.

[pnustedt]

I know a bit about the strong support the current regime seems to command amongst many rural Thai communities, albeit this support is being questioned after recent events.

However, as with many political situations, the question which will inevitably be raised is, what is the alternative? Is there one with any credibility?

[hkthai]

There are lots of Thais that do question Thaksin’s authoritarianism. But the bottom line here is as long as the economy keeps on humming and the perception that Thaksin is the man behind it, he will get reelected. One of the underlying basis for his popularity lies in the fact that he presided over a period when the economy was booming compared with the dark days of 1997-2000 when jobs were difficult to come by. In this regard, I don’t think Thailand is any different from the west.

[fatter than harry]

bmanly is right

As far as I am concerned it is called blind "Nationalism". It is a kind of conditioning in believing you are the best and only the Thai knows best for Thai regardless of the facts. All countries have this blind Nationalism same as we had in Australia and probably still have.

and so is HKthai

One of the underlying basis for his popularity lies in the fact that he presided over a period when the economy was booming compared with the dark days of 1997-2000 when jobs were difficult to come by. In this regard, I don’t think Thailand is any different from the west.

I would imagine all our contries are the same, it's natural to blame outside influences for ones problems, for example I blamed Messers Heineken and Carlsberg for being late to work yesterday when it was in fact my own fault (in fact it was the fault of Miss Mekhong) - you see I'm doing it again.

[gisele]

I would imagine all our contries are the same, it's natural to blame outside influences for ones problems,

Quite right. It's human nature. After all, who wants to be responsible for their own decisions!

[adjan jb]

After all, who wants to be responsible for their own decisions!

Not even God...

[piet pompies]

Have been doing Thai at quite high level, for some years. Initially teachers were very pro Thaksin. All teachers were well educated, Thai, fluent in at leats two languages BUT all have families in rural areas. In the last few months there seems to be a significant shift away from full support for TRT. Too dictatorial. Interesting to watch. Does the Government ever look at this site??

[Yohan]

It sadens me to hear that in Thailand the West is famous for prostitution, corruption, drugs and dictatorial leadership.

Why to be sad about hearing the truth?

There is prostitution, corruption, drugs, dictatorial leadership and so on in the West. American people are often bashing Thailand and other Asian nations about it, but in the USA nothing is better. We should not point the finger always at the others.

We should not be single-sided and critizise Thailand, because it is an Asian and Buddhist country.

Nothing is better in the West, the difference is only, that it can be seen easily in Thailand, while it is existing, but in hiding in the USA and other Western countries.

Johann

[hkthai]

bmanly is right

As far as I am concerned it is called blind "Nationalism". It is a kind of conditioning in believing you are the best and only the Thai knows best for Thai regardless of the facts. All countries have this blind Nationalism same as we had in Australia and probably still have.

and so is HKthai

One of the underlying basis for his popularity lies in the fact that he presided over a period when the economy was booming compared with the dark days of 1997-2000 when jobs were difficult to come by. In this regard, I don’t think Thailand is any different from the west.

I would imagine all our contries are the same, it's natural to blame outside influences for ones problems, for example I blamed Messers Heineken and Carlsberg for being late to work yesterday when it was in fact my own fault (in fact it was the fault of Miss Mekhong) - you see I'm doing it again.

Harry Fatter,

You should be able to separate a statement of opinion rather than a statement of support. Or perhaps you were drinking Mekhong while you were reading this.

As far as Thailand, yes I am very patriotic and VERY proud to be a Thai. However, I am not blinded by all the social ills or for that matter to blame the west for the problems we see in thailand today.

I would also disagree with a generalization that Thais support Thaksin blindly. There are many in Bangkok that are raising concerns about him. However, at what point does he crosses that line that will separate selfish interest to a point of national concern. In this regard I would argue that it is no different from the West. Having a job will put food on the table and a roof over your head. If the perception is the man in charge can help with the job bit and keep it properous versus the man on the other side that may end up getting you termination pay, the votes will go the to man that helps with the bills. Maslow's hierarchy at it's very basic.