Sabai Properties / Kitt & Murray

[percy2]

Lindsay,

Sorry to hear about your situation.

There is quite a bit a back biting going on in your thread.

I think you should have a genuine concern.

I would recomend speaking to a new lawyer.

www.tillekeandgibbins.com Are the most respected lawfirm I have heard of in Thailand.

I'm not a lawyer and have nothing to do with T and G or Samui.

[Beachedwhale]

Remember where there's smoke there's fire.

Porter… You seem to be attempting to make stories and connections etc for some reason but I am surprised you have not picked up on the connection of the

1. Thongson Bay land (currently under investigation according to the Thai article referred to above),

2. The Peak development and

3. the Bandidos incident on Samui …

there appears to be a common thread between them all, and right up your alley for questioning ….

1 Thongson Bay…

“The article also talks about other property also illegally upgraded in Thongson Bay currently owned by a Samui resident "with strong Samui contacts" (no inference that it is Mr Fay - just another similar situation)”

There is a unconfirmed rumour that this person in Thongson Bay was attempting to build a hotel and that they are the owner of a hospital on Samui (not sure which but my source thought it was in Nathon)... Innocent enough but also…

2. The Peak

“The Peak, a Bt20-billion luxury residential project on Koh Samui, is being adversely affected following public concern that part of the land might have been illegally transferred and encroaches on forest areas.

"Twenty buyers of a total of 70 who agreed to buy land allocated during the project's first phase are now asking the company for refunds of their deposits," said Boon Vanasin, a major shareholder of Rajthanee Realty Co Ltd, developer of the project.” ….

“Boon is also a director of Piyavate Hospital and owner of other hospitals in Bangkok, including Thonburi I and Thonburi II.”

And…

3. Regarding the 7 people arrested by DSI (including the Bandidos) …

Pratheep Muangkaew, a former prosecutor turned land developer, was charged by the DSI for bribing land officials into issuing land documents for his property.

Mr Pratheep was one of the seven suspects implicated in the illegal issuance of land documents on the resort island.

The DSI yesterday also brought Kim Lindergaard Neilsen, a 36-year-old Dane charged in the case, to the Criminal Court.”

I have had dealings with Mr Prathhep Muangkaew when he was also an Administrator of Bandon International Hospital... (not sure if he still is there or not).

Coincidence or not? (I seem to remember some police drama saying that 2 instances can be a coincidence but three cannot)? … and I suppose they all flew on Bangkok Airways which also happens to have a hospital on Samui) … oh my goodness a fourth link…

[Griz]

quote]This is contradictory to what both the member (Griz) and Mr Fay posted on this forum topic.

PORTER

Please get your facts right I (Griz) have posted nothing regarding Sabai Thani but only allowed Mr Fay, an acquaintance of mine, to use my login to reply to comments being posted regarding him and his company.

[John 1]

Griz,

Why doesn't Fay register and log in using his own account, then you won't get accused

[SamuiJens]

Very logical.

[Charma]

quote]This is contradictory to what both the member (Griz) and Mr Fay posted on this forum topic.

PORTER

Please get your facts right I (Griz) have posted nothing regarding Sabai Thani but only allowed Mr Fay, an acquaintance of mine, to use my login to reply to comments being posted regarding him and his company.

I am sure you have informed him of the comments being made on this thread. I am very surprised that he has not come back on to set the record straight.

[John 1]

I can'y wait for Porter to come back, he will be placed on probation, he has been a bad boy.

He definatily know some stuff about people on samui, maybe he has a lot of friends.

[Rooo]

I can'y wait for Porter to come back, he will be placed on probation, he has been a bad boy.

He definatily know some stuff about people on samui, maybe he has a lot of friends.

Friends?

[Nadia 2]

I'm correct that the CEO of Sabai Thani, a Mr Lawrence Fay, replied directly to a members post (Lindsey) using another members handle, that of (Griz) and stated that there was absolutely no problem with the Sabai Thani land titles and that the only delays were wrt roof design?

Agreed?

Unfortunately the National Pra Cha Chat Turikit newspaper is singing a different song.

They have reported according to information received from the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) that the actual land at LAEM MI GAN in fact belongs to the GROM TA NA RAK.

This, as I understand it, is another branch of the government along the same lines as the forestry department. Suffice to say a government body … and that the 12 Rai’s that Sabai Thani exists on are all carrying FALSIFIED land documents.

Now what the hel_l is going on fella’s?

I do not know “IF” this is true or if any action has been brought against the developer to date, but, “IF” it is true then I wouldn’t rule out action being taken in the form of reclaiming the land.

Out of concern for the Member (Lindsay) I feel that I owe it to her to suggest the following course of action:

Fly directly to Bangkok and instead of engaging a local law firm recommended by foreigners, who, if this story proves to be true, are incompetent at best and talk directly to the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) which is the Thai equivalent of the American FBI.

It appears that they are currently investigating this project.

Bring all your documentation, ie: contracts, receipts, money transfers and lay out the buying process on the table and where you are with it to actually determine if your purchase is under threat.

I sincerely hope for your sake, that the newspaper was wrong and that (Griz), Mr Fay of Sabai Thani and Martello Realty as the Agents are correct in their assertions.

But Better to be safe than sorry wouldn’t you agree!

Does it actually matter if the title is illegal or not? Even if the title turns out to be legally issued, the whole ownership construction of these apartments is illegal. Lindsay will not get her promised 'ownership'. If it is not an illegal circumvention of the Land Code or the Foreign Business Act it is an illegal circumvention of the Condominium Act.

Linsay should have never been advised to touch this doubtful ownership construction.

Problem in Samui is that 'lawyers' who set up these illegal constructions often work for the seller and the purchaser. How can you expect a lawyer who sets up such an illegal construction for the seller to warn a potential buyer? Maybe Lindsay should go after the lawyer, I'm sure she has a case.

[Lindsay]

Many thanks to everyone for their advice and concern, and for drawing our attention to this article, which we would never have known about without this forum. We have a new lawyer on the case who is looking into the newspaper allegations.

I am very concerned about your contribution, Nadia 2. Do you know something else we don't? What is illegal about the ownership construction? According to our purchase agreement, the apartments are being sold as condominiums, or if the condominium licence is not granted (apparently this cannot be granted until after construction work has finished), as a 30 year leasehold with extension options. We thought this was 100 % legal and above board. Are we wrong?

Lindsay

[Beachedwhale]

Many thanks to everyone for their advice and concern, and for drawing our attention to this article, which we would never have known about without this forum. We have a new lawyer on the case who is looking into the newspaper allegations.

I am very concerned about your contribution, Nadia 2. Do you know something else we don't? What is illegal about the ownership construction? According to our purchase agreement, the apartments are being sold as condominiums, or if the condominium licence is not granted (apparently this cannot be granted until after construction work has finished), as a 30 year leasehold with extension options. We thought this was 100 % legal and above board. Are we wrong?

Lindsay

Some information on Condos is available here ... http://www.thaivisa.com/buy_condo_thailand.0.html

Obviously the process is cmplex and takes time and even if all went well, I would expect that you would not get your title for some time after the building is complete. It does happen thopugh and there are many "alien" people in Thailad happily living in their own condo and I am can think of worse places to sit and look at the view while waiting to get the paperwork finished. For your part, you need to ensure you have proper evidence of bringing the money into Thailand - your bank and lawyer should be able to sort that out. It helps you meet the requirements of the act and also helps when you want to send out the proceeds of sale (assuming you might sell it some time in the future).

And you are right about a lease being legal and above board for 30 years but there is some debate on whether it is legally allowed to have an extension clause within the lease document itself (as that then makes the lease longer than 30 years), or whether it has to be a side agreement ... and then if the 30 years are up you try and enforce the side agreement which legally is not supposed to be in place ... I personally have not heard of any problems with leases that are constructed properly (some people have had problems because they did not have extenstions written in for shorter terms such as 5 plus 5 year leases etc, but that is their fault for not reading the document properly).

I am not sure if Nadia 2 is actually talking about the legality of the construction itself (height, roof line etc)... which I believed has alread been adressed on this thread, or the legality of the ownership structure of a condo ... which I assume is really work in progres as the construction is not complete and the sales of the units are still ongoing. Please just remember that even a totally legal situation will take time and seem more complex than it should be, it just seems to e the way here - for both aliens and non-aliens.

[Nadia 2]

Many thanks to everyone for their advice and concern, and for drawing our attention to this article, which we would never have known about without this forum. We have a new lawyer on the case who is looking into the newspaper allegations.

I am very concerned about your contribution, Nadia 2. Do you know something else we don't? What is illegal about the ownership construction? According to our purchase agreement, the apartments are being sold as condominiums, or if the condominium licence is not granted (apparently this cannot be granted until after construction work has finished), as a 30 year leasehold with extension options. We thought this was 100 % legal and above board. Are we wrong?

Lindsay

I hope I'm wrong but from what I know;

These apartment blocks will not be registered as a Condominium juristic person, as therefore it requires special certification and approval which they have not. Then again, if it would be a real condominium the foreign ownership when added together in that condominium block may not exceed 49% of the total unit space as registered within such Condominium. Would you be part of this 49% or will you be just part of the 49% preference shares in the holding company!

The holding company will hold the property for the 'unit purchasers'. You will probably end up with a shareholding structure (illegal), maybe in conjunction with 30 year leases. You will get a share certificate instead of a unit title deed. As explained earlier this has nothing to do with the Thai government allowing foreigners to own a condominium.

You will not get an independent lease over your unit (as there will not be a separate unit title deed in this construction), you will only get a lease registered over the land together with the other foreign purchasers, but that’s all. However, with the current crack down on these unlicensed developers and nominee holding structures by the Ministry of Commerce and the Land Department I doubt you will ever get anything. Besides the illegally issued title deeds in Samui, some say this could be 50% in certain areas.

[Rooo]

I wonder if the original OP sorted that problem out.

The buildings still look unfinished & they now have that land that was supposed to be a mall in conjuction with Martello for sale.

Edited December 22, 2006 by Rooo

[taxexile]

The buildings still look unfinished

do you mean the condo blocks , or the houses , or both?

we were shown around one of the houses when we were there , it was nearly finished and mr. fay told us it was going to be his home.

are any of the houses occupied?

[Little Black Duck]

My husband and I are in the process of buying an apartment at Sabai Thani (new development on the headland between Big Buddha and Fisherman's Village). We thought we had done everything properly and engaged our own lawyers, Kitt & Murray, to double-check the land title and our purchase agreement with the developers Sabai Properties. Progress on site has ground to a halt since last year and the developers have now admitted that there is no way they will meet the agreed completion date of June 2006, but are unwilling to give any idea as to when the apartment might be ready. OK, I thought, time to get back to the lawyers to discuss the penalty clauses in the purchase agreement for failure to meet the completion deadline. But to my horror I have discovered that Kitt & Murray no longer exist! The people we thought were representing our interests in Thailand have just disappeared, without even the professional courtesy of letting us know that they have discontinued operation.

Does anyone have any inside track on either Sabai Properties or Kitt & Murray? I would love to hear from other Sabai Thani purchasers who may be in the same situation. And has anyone driven past the site recently who could perhaps tell me if there is any work at all in progress? It is so frustrating to be here in Europe with no communication whatsoever from the developers, and no lawyer to turn to either.

Many thanks in advance.

At the time that Kitt & Murray decided to cease operations in Samui. we contacted all of the clients that we had information on and, to our knowledge, had instructed us to keep them informed of what we were doing and to make alternate arrangements for all our clients. If you were not contacted, we had no information about your matter to hand and if this is the case I apologise and will endeavour to resolve this matter as soon as possible.

When we decided to leave Thailand, we attempted to have someone take over the business as a going concern. This discussion proved fruitless and we abandoned the idea after a lot of effort. This however does not solve your problem. We will contact Jerrold Kippen, who was our Samui office manager and who is now managing the Samui office for McEvily & Collins to see what happened here and if he can take over your matter on behalf of his new firm.

I have also sent you a PM, but please free to contact me directly on colin(at)kittmurray.com

Smells a bit of the old Rats leaving the sinking Ship Syndrome....

[Rooo]

The buildings still look unfinished

do you mean the condo blocks , or the houses , or both?

we were shown around one of the houses when we were there , it was nearly finished and mr. fay told us it was going to be his home.

are any of the houses occupied?

Tax the condos look unfinished.

[Lindsay]

Hi, we have just got back from visiting the site. Several of the houses are finished and occupied, and I must say that they are beautiful with gorgeous views - we actually stayed in one of them. The apartments, sadly, are nowhere near finished - the latest completion date is now October 2007 ...

Yes, we are bitterly disappointed, but nevertheless hopeful that they will eventually be worth the very long wait.

Lindsay

[womble]

Hi, we have just got back from visiting the site. Several of the houses are finished and occupied, and I must say that they are beautiful with gorgeous views - we actually stayed in one of them. The apartments, sadly, are nowhere near finished - the latest completion date is now October 2007 ...

Yes, we are bitterly disappointed, but nevertheless hopeful that they will eventually be worth the very long wait.

Lindsay

Very Very long wait.

[mark lamai]

ummm since I know nothing except from being an interested observer for some time.

my rules would be:

1. do not trust or believe anyone.

2. get a good lawyer in Bangkok with no connections to Samui at all.

3. have this following statement checked thoroughly.

"With regard to the land, Sabai Thani plots are all held by separate landholding companies with supporting contract land papers and ‘Tabien Baans’ which are transferred on completion and handover of the property.

coz the facts have not changed.

you cannot own land.

and the limited company scheme is looking even more perilous than before.

as we have seen last year enforcement of law and regulations is liable to change at any time.

the government could, if they wanted to, dispossess all foreign "owners" very easily with no compensation.

if that's not enough to put a sensible person off then you must like living on the edge of losing it all.

[shedaboss]

Hi, we have just got back from visiting the site. Several of the houses are finished and occupied, and I must say that they are beautiful with gorgeous views - we actually stayed in one of them. The apartments, sadly, are nowhere near finished - the latest completion date is now October 2007 ...

Yes, we are bitterly disappointed, but nevertheless hopeful that they will eventually be worth the very long wait.

Lindsay

[Jet Gorgon]

ummm since I know nothing except from being an interested observer for some time.

my rules would be:

1. do not trust or believe anyone.

2. get a good lawyer in Bangkok with no connections to Samui at all.

3. have this following statement checked thoroughly.

"With regard to the land, Sabai Thani plots are all held by separate landholding companies with supporting contract land papers and ‘Tabien Baans’ which are transferred on completion and handover of the property.

coz the facts have not changed.

you cannot own land.

and the limited company scheme is looking even more perilous than before.

as we have seen last year enforcement of law and regulations is liable to change at any time.

the government could, if they wanted to, dispossess all foreign "owners" very easily with no compensation.

if that's not enough to put a sensible person off then you must like living on the edge of losing it all.

I think all potential property buyers should be deprogrammed of their paradise home advertising brainwashes by you, Mark. Would save a lot of heartache, stress and anger.

I know three people who have been scammed by developers here. Even when the place is "finished" and they move in, the snag lists are enormous. One person is trying to rent her villa in a big development, and is being refused for various reasons. Really makes me appreciate my rental home and how the owner fixes any problem within a few days, all dependent on parts. And I do not need security systems, either.

[taxexile]

seems that mr. fay was arrested for encroaching.

Briton nabbed for encroaching on public land

BANGKOK, March 18 (TNA) - A British businessman was arrested on Tuesday for allegedly encroaching on public land on the southern resort island of Samui, according to a senior officer at the Department of Special Investigation (DSI).

DSI spokesman Pol. Col. Narat Sawetanant said at a press conference on Tuesday that Laurence Daniel James Fay, 32, was to face charges. Mr. Fay is accused of hiring a Thai nominee to run a real estate company.

As founder of Sabai Thani Property Co Ltd, Mr. Fay purchased several plots of public land on Samui Island before constructing a condominium and housing community, according to the spokesman.

Col. Narat added Mr. Fay owned 49 per cent of the company shares, but that he had hired a number of Thai nationals to possess the other remaining 51 per cent of the shares, making him the de facto owner of the company.

DSI will ask the Land Department to revoke the company's ownership, which might affect a large number of Sabai Thani clients, said the DSI spokesman.

If found guilty, the suspect might face a maximum of three years imprisonment.

Edited March 19, 2008 by taxexile

[jocwaoh]

seems that mr. fay was arrested for encroaching.

Briton nabbed for encroaching on public land

BANGKOK, March 18 (TNA) - A British businessman was arrested on Tuesday for allegedly encroaching on public land on the southern resort island of Samui, according to a senior officer at the Department of Special Investigation (DSI).

DSI spokesman Pol. Col. Narat Sawetanant said at a press conference on Tuesday that Laurence Daniel James Fay, 32, was to face charges. Mr. Fay is accused of hiring a Thai nominee to run a real estate company.

As founder of Sabai Thani Property Co Ltd, Mr. Fay purchased several plots of public land on Samui Island before constructing a condominium and housing community, according to the spokesman.

Col. Narat added Mr. Fay owned 49 per cent of the company shares, but that he had hired a number of Thai nationals to possess the other remaining 51 per cent of the shares, making him the de facto owner of the company.

DSI will ask the Land Department to revoke the company's ownership, which might affect a large number of Sabai Thani clients, said the DSI spokesman.

If found guilty, the suspect might face a maximum of three years imprisonment.

Darn Lindsey...now you have a WHOLE new set of worries...potentially a LOT WORSE worries! These "developers" are truly the worst sort!!! Hope he rots in there!

[SamuiRes]

seems that mr. fay was arrested for encroaching.

Briton nabbed for encroaching on public land

BANGKOK, March 18 (TNA) - A British businessman was arrested on Tuesday for allegedly encroaching on public land on the southern resort island of Samui, according to a senior officer at the Department of Special Investigation (DSI).

DSI spokesman Pol. Col. Narat Sawetanant said at a press conference on Tuesday that Laurence Daniel James Fay, 32, was to face charges. Mr. Fay is accused of hiring a Thai nominee to run a real estate company.

As founder of Sabai Thani Property Co Ltd, Mr. Fay purchased several plots of public land on Samui Island before constructing a condominium and housing community, according to the spokesman.

Col. Narat added Mr. Fay owned 49 per cent of the company shares, but that he had hired a number of Thai nationals to possess the other remaining 51 per cent of the shares, making him the de facto owner of the company.

DSI will ask the Land Department to revoke the company's ownership, which might affect a large number of Sabai Thani clients, said the DSI spokesman.

If found guilty, the suspect might face a maximum of three years imprisonment.

Darn Lindsey...now you have a WHOLE new set of worries...potentially a LOT WORSE worries! These "developers" are truly the worst sort!!! Hope he rots in there!

Before we all get too excited about this, remember that the DSI do not exactly have a good record at getting their facts correct and that the last case they prosecuted here had Crispin in jail for 18 months only to be found not guilty. The Press is also extremely bad at getting their facts correct as well, in particular the Bangkok Post whose standard of reporting makes News of the World look positively saintly. In the Bangkok Post this morning they could not even get his name right. Let's see what the correct version is and then comment.

[jocwaoh]

seems that mr. fay was arrested for encroaching.

Briton nabbed for encroaching on public land

BANGKOK, March 18 (TNA) - A British businessman was arrested on Tuesday for allegedly encroaching on public land on the southern resort island of Samui, according to a senior officer at the Department of Special Investigation (DSI).

DSI spokesman Pol. Col. Narat Sawetanant said at a press conference on Tuesday that Laurence Daniel James Fay, 32, was to face charges. Mr. Fay is accused of hiring a Thai nominee to run a real estate company.

As founder of Sabai Thani Property Co Ltd, Mr. Fay purchased several plots of public land on Samui Island before constructing a condominium and housing community, according to the spokesman.

Col. Narat added Mr. Fay owned 49 per cent of the company shares, but that he had hired a number of Thai nationals to possess the other remaining 51 per cent of the shares, making him the de facto owner of the company.

DSI will ask the Land Department to revoke the company's ownership, which might affect a large number of Sabai Thani clients, said the DSI spokesman.

If found guilty, the suspect might face a maximum of three years imprisonment.

Darn Lindsey...now you have a WHOLE new set of worries...potentially a LOT WORSE worries! These "developers" are truly the worst sort!!! Hope he rots in there!

Before we all get too excited about this, remember that the DSI do not exactly have a good record at getting their facts correct and that the last case they prosecuted here had Crispin in jail for 18 months only to be found not guilty. The Press is also extremely bad at getting their facts correct as well, in particular the Bangkok Post whose standard of reporting makes News of the World look positively saintly. In the Bangkok Post this morning they could not even get his name right. Let's see what the correct version is and then comment.

Spoken like a true Coco supporter!!! ... And BTW Crispin was not "found" anything...the charges were just dropped and he was released that does NOT equal a "finding" of any kind). This was in the Nation too where they did get his name spelled correctly. Gee, talk about getting one's facts wrong!

But fine, lets see where this goes, my bet is on the WHOLE project land is affected. Shame all these people will very well lose all their investments. These "developers" are truly the worst sort!!!

[taxexile]

he has probably been arrested on a technicality of some sort , and i doubt if any purchasers will lose their properties , that would send a shockwave through the business that is bringing so much money into the island , they are not likely to kill the goose so long as those golden eggs continue to be laid.

expect this one to run and run , he may be found guilty and jailed, deported or fined , and i would guess that any affected owners will probably have to renew their leases with whoever is found to actually own the land.

[Rooo]

Hasn't the whole development changed hands a while ago?Bailed out financially?

[Gatorade]

seems that mr. fay was arrested for encroaching.

Briton nabbed for encroaching on public land

BANGKOK, March 18 (TNA) - A British businessman was arrested on Tuesday for allegedly encroaching on public land on the southern resort island of Samui, according to a senior officer at the Department of Special Investigation (DSI).

DSI spokesman Pol. Col. Narat Sawetanant said at a press conference on Tuesday that Laurence Daniel James Fay, 32, was to face charges. Mr. Fay is accused of hiring a Thai nominee to run a real estate company.

As founder of Sabai Thani Property Co Ltd, Mr. Fay purchased several plots of public land on Samui Island before constructing a condominium and housing community, according to the spokesman.

Col. Narat added Mr. Fay owned 49 per cent of the company shares, but that he had hired a number of Thai nationals to possess the other remaining 51 per cent of the shares, making him the de facto owner of the company.

DSI will ask the Land Department to revoke the company's ownership, which might affect a large number of Sabai Thani clients, said the DSI spokesman.

If found guilty, the suspect might face a maximum of three years imprisonment.

Darn Lindsey...now you have a WHOLE new set of worries...potentially a LOT WORSE worries! These "developers" are truly the worst sort!!! Hope he rots in there!

Before we all get too excited about this, remember that the DSI do not exactly have a good record at getting their facts correct and that the last case they prosecuted here had Crispin in jail for 18 months only to be found not guilty. The Press is also extremely bad at getting their facts correct as well, in particular the Bangkok Post whose standard of reporting makes News of the World look positively saintly. In the Bangkok Post this morning they could not even get his name right. Let's see what the correct version is and then comment.

Spoken like a true Coco supporter!!! ... And BTW Crispin was not "found" anything...the charges were just dropped and he was released that does NOT equal a "finding" of any kind). This was in the Nation too where they did get his name spelled correctly. Gee, talk about getting one's facts wrong!

But fine, lets see where this goes, my bet is on the WHOLE project land is affected. Shame all these people will very well lose all their investments. These "developers" are truly the worst sort!!!

Congrats, you managed to thread Coco into this one. Any particular reason?

[pattayadave]

anyone know if lindsay got it sorted out then

[SamuiRes]

Spoken like a true Coco supporter!!! ... And BTW Crispin was not "found" anything...the charges were just dropped and he was released that does NOT equal a "finding" of any kind). This was in the Nation too where they did get his name spelled correctly. Gee, talk about getting one's facts wrong!

But fine, lets see where this goes, my bet is on the WHOLE project land is affected. Shame all these people will very well lose all their investments. These "developers" are truly the worst sort!!!

Who mentioned Coco? Where did that come from?

As for getting facts wrong - this is the quote from the Bangkok Post

British 'land developer' arrested on Samui

THANIDA TANSUBHAPOL

Another member of the Bandidos motorcycle gang, suspected of involvement in the drug trade and money laundering, has been arrested in Koh Samui by the Department of Special Investigation.

Pol Col Pravuth Wongsinil, chief of the consumer and environment protection unit, said Lauren Daniel James Fray, 32, is a British national and owner of Sabai Thani Property Co.

''Mr Fray entered Thailand as a tourist and used loopholes in Thai laws to buy and sell public land and real estate with the assistance of Thai lawyers,'' he said.

A source said Mr Fray held 49% of the company and used the names of employees to hold another 51% stake. He did not put his own money into the company.

Mr Fray bought property in Laem Mai Kaen. The DSI found the property belonged to the Treasury Department.

Mr Fray divided the land into nine plots. Thais who conspired with him pretended to buy them.

Mr Fray sold the sections for 22 million baht each to Sabai Thani in order to allow foreigners to occupy the land and houses as juristic persons.

''This caused the state to lose more than 70 million baht in taxes,'' DSI spokesman Pol Col Narat Sawettanant said. Mr Fray is charged with illegal buying and selling of land.

In July 2006, the DSI arrested Kim Lingegaard Neilsen, a member of the Bandidos, on Koh Samui. ]

Seems to me that they got the name wrong. Fact or not?

My point about the Bangkok Post in particular is that they will report anything without checking the facts and quite frequently get them wrong. Their standard of reporting is abismal. The Nation is far better but not always guilt free.

My point being that the Bangkok Post cannot be relied upon to give a factually correct report of what happened and that before we all condemn Lawrence - or anyone else for that matter - would it not be better to learn of the true facts? Certainly I was brought up in a society that believed in being innocent until proven guilty. Clearly there are people on this forum who are more than happy to condemn on rumour and suspicion alone.