Special Report: A nation at the crossroads

[citizen33]

1) Everyone who lives in Thailand knows that the corruption is worse than ever before

2) It tackle the Shinawatra systeme, vote buying and corruption and want to bring MORE democracy and of course general elections in approx. 1 year.

3) Which unelected elites??? Bangkok middle class and Southern Rubber farmer are the unelected elites???

4) Popular or not is not important, he is a criminal on the run.....also Hitler was the most popular politician, still he wasn't good for the country.

5) They should stay for 1 year with the sole purpose to prepare elections.....not much harm they can do. Beside the undemocratic Surayud government was the least corrupt and one of the best one in the last 15 or so years.

Again more nonsense, though certainly quite widely shared.Dealing with your points in turn.

1) Corruption is and was a problem in Thailand.However by some criteria Transparency International (the leading authority on the matter) believes it is less prevalent now than hitherto.There is no evidence to suggest it is worse than before

.

I am not trying to wade into your disagreement with someone else, but, as you are probably aware, Transparency International bases it's Corruption Index on perceptions of people in international organizations outside of Thailand.

In addition, even if you wanted to argue that it is the best unbiased international view we have, you should know that even Transparency International views that corruption in Thailand is worse in 2013 compared to 2012.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

As others have said before it is more instructive to look at time series data than just two successive years.

1999-2010 (a lower ranking is better):

1999: 68

2000: 60

2001: 61

2002: 64

2003: 70

2004: 64

2005: 59

2006: 63

2007: 84

2008: 80

2009: 84

2010: 78

Those who call for a coup as the way to end corruption might be interested in what happened last time.

See this article by Walker

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2011/07/09/thailands-corruption-record/

It has to be conceded though that the TI data have their problems. Here is an interesting article explaining some of the problems that arise with time series analysis. Because the TI instrument is a compilation of several different indexes of corruption, and because the measures use change over time, there is some doubt about the comparability of scores from different years.

siteresources.worldbank.org/INTWBIGOVANTCOR/Resources/TransparencyInternationalCorruptionIndex.pdf

The morale may be that the scores are a starting point for analysis but need to be treated with caution. Certainly it isn’t very bright to build an argument on figures from just two years without looking at longer term trends and also how the instrument is put together.

[citizen33]

AMAZING FARANG!

I'm amazed at the number of "educated farang" on TVF who can't even spell the man's name right. It's T H A K S I N, and not T A K S I N.

Taksin was the 1st King of Thonburi. "He was a leader in the liberation of Siam from Burmese occupation after the Second Fall of Ayutthaya in 1767, and the subsequent unification of Siam after it fell under various warlords. He established the city Thonburi as the new capital, as the city Ayutthaya had been almost completely destroyed by the invaders. His reign was characterized by numerous wars, fought to repel new Burmese invasions and to subjugate the northern Thai kingdom of Lanna, the Laotian principalities, and a threatening Cambodia. He was executed and succeeded by his long-time friend King Buddha Yodfa Chulaloke who then created the Chakri dynasty and the Rattanakosin Kingdom." (Wikipedia)

Come on, people show your education and intelligence, not your stupidity over and over.

I admit that I favour your spelling, but isn't this just the old story that there is no standard way to transcribe Thai proper names into English. No less a personage that Giles Ji Ungkaporn, who is fluent in both languages, insists on spelling 'Thaksin' without the 'h'.

[Ulic]

Suthep is on fire. Just because we want to suspend democracy does not mean we are against democracy. When

he interprets article 3 which says sovereignty belongs to the people, I guess he means just his people not the

majority that voted for the other parties. Oh well, he may have the next word but I really don't think he will have the

last word. Thats probably 6 - 8 months away.

[binjalin]

AMAZING FARANG!

I'm amazed at the number of "educated farang" on TVF who can't even spell the man's name right. It's T H A K S I N, and not T A K S I N.

Taksin was the 1st King of Thonburi. "He was a leader in the liberation of Siam from Burmese occupation after the Second Fall of Ayutthaya in 1767, and the subsequent unification of Siam after it fell under various warlords. He established the city Thonburi as the new capital, as the city Ayutthaya had been almost completely destroyed by the invaders. His reign was characterized by numerous wars, fought to repel new Burmese invasions and to subjugate the northern Thai kingdom of Lanna, the Laotian principalities, and a threatening Cambodia. He was executed and succeeded by his long-time friend King Buddha Yodfa Chulaloke who then created the Chakri dynasty and the Rattanakosin Kingdom." (Wikipedia)

Come on, people show your education and intelligence, not your stupidity over and over.

I admit that I favour your spelling, but isn't this just the old story that there is no standard way to transcribe Thai proper names into English. No less a personage that Giles Ji Ungkaporn, who is fluent in both languages, insists on spelling 'Thaksin' without the 'h'.

you mean Giles Ji Ungpakorn?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giles_Ji_Ungpakorn

sorry could not resist - from Pedant's Corner

Edited January 5, 2014 by binjalin

[beautifulthailand99]

AMAZING FARANG!

I'm amazed at the number of "educated farang" on TVF who can't even spell the man's name right. It's T H A K S I N, and not T A K S I N.

Taksin was the 1st King of Thonburi. "He was a leader in the liberation of Siam from Burmese occupation after the Second Fall of Ayutthaya in 1767, and the subsequent unification of Siam after it fell under various warlords. He established the city Thonburi as the new capital, as the city Ayutthaya had been almost completely destroyed by the invaders. His reign was characterized by numerous wars, fought to repel new Burmese invasions and to subjugate the northern Thai kingdom of Lanna, the Laotian principalities, and a threatening Cambodia. He was executed and succeeded by his long-time friend King Buddha Yodfa Chulaloke who then created the Chakri dynasty and the Rattanakosin Kingdom." (Wikipedia)

Come on, people show your education and intelligence, not your stupidity over and over.

I admit that I favour your spelling, but isn't this just the old story that there is no standard way to transcribe Thai proper names into English. No less a personage that Giles Ji Ungkaporn, who is fluent in both languages, insists on spelling 'Thaksin' without the 'h'.

[citizen33]

AMAZING FARANG!

I'm amazed at the number of "educated farang" on TVF who can't even spell the man's name right. It's T H A K S I N, and not T A K S I N.

Taksin was the 1st King of Thonburi. "He was a leader in the liberation of Siam from Burmese occupation after the Second Fall of Ayutthaya in 1767, and the subsequent unification of Siam after it fell under various warlords. He established the city Thonburi as the new capital, as the city Ayutthaya had been almost completely destroyed by the invaders. His reign was characterized by numerous wars, fought to repel new Burmese invasions and to subjugate the northern Thai kingdom of Lanna, the Laotian principalities, and a threatening Cambodia. He was executed and succeeded by his long-time friend King Buddha Yodfa Chulaloke who then created the Chakri dynasty and the Rattanakosin Kingdom." (Wikipedia)

Come on, people show your education and intelligence, not your stupidity over and over.

I admit that I favour your spelling, but isn't this just the old story that there is no standard way to transcribe Thai proper names into English. No less a personage that Giles Ji Ungkaporn, who is fluent in both languages, insists on spelling 'Thaksin' without the 'h'.

I thought I was the one arguing for the less prescriptive approach!

P.S. Yes, I was afflicted by a momentary bout of dyslexia - it is Giles Ungpakorn who uses the 'Taksin' spelling.

Edited January 5, 2014 by citizen33

[beautifulthailand99]

At least Suthep is easy to get right - but I think we would all have a problem with his surname - easier to abbreviate it to Hitler !

[Centrum]

AMAZING FARANG!

I'm amazed at the number of "educated farang" on TVF who can't even spell the man's name right. It's T H A K S I N, and not T A K S I N.

Taksin was the 1st King of Thonburi. "He was a leader in the liberation of Siam from Burmese occupation after the Second Fall of Ayutthaya in 1767, and the subsequent unification of Siam after it fell under various warlords. He established the city Thonburi as the new capital, as the city Ayutthaya had been almost completely destroyed by the invaders. His reign was characterized by numerous wars, fought to repel new Burmese invasions and to subjugate the northern Thai kingdom of Lanna, the Laotian principalities, and a threatening Cambodia. He was executed and succeeded by his long-time friend King Buddha Yodfa Chulaloke who then created the Chakri dynasty and the Rattanakosin Kingdom." (Wikipedia)

Come on, people show your education and intelligence, not your stupidity over and over.

And if they don't you'll hit the streets with a million English teachers, right?

People are dying and all you care about is spelling, blah, blah, blah.

[theslime]

Interesting how the Government just commandeered every TV channel just now for a live about 5 minute pro-administration propaganda piece. They said how well they were handling the situation and reiterated how unlawful the shutdown Bangkok plan is, and how bad the Suthep methods are. They said be careful everyone, but stopped short of saying if they would try to stop the shutdown. I suspect they will use this method to garner public opinion every day nearer the shutdown.

**Just tuned into live news, evidently Suthep is walking around all the districts of Bangkok, trying to garner support for the 13th. The government is then broadcasting its own counterpoint piece evidently.

that's what you would expect when there is an attempted coup - a national broadcast - nothing sinister and the protesters should think themselves lucky they live here and not Cambodia where the protest was squashed (as it should be)

Duh, squash the labor strikers or squash the peasants that are having Their land taken, You must be very anti protest of any sort, just put up and shut up, fairly poor way to live or spineless.

[beautifulthailand99]

[Old Man River]

1) Everyone who lives in Thailand knows that the corruption is worse than ever before

2) It tackle the Shinawatra systeme, vote buying and corruption and want to bring MORE democracy and of course general elections in approx. 1 year.

3) Which unelected elites??? Bangkok middle class and Southern Rubber farmer are the unelected elites???

4) Popular or not is not important, he is a criminal on the run.....also Hitler was the most popular politician, still he wasn't good for the country.

5) They should stay for 1 year with the sole purpose to prepare elections.....not much harm they can do. Beside the undemocratic Surayud government was the least corrupt and one of the best one in the last 15 or so years.

Again more nonsense, though certainly quite widely shared.Dealing with your points in turn.

1) Corruption is and was a problem in Thailand.However by some criteria Transparency International (the leading authority on the matter) believes it is less prevalent now than hitherto.There is no evidence to suggest it is worse than before

.

I am not trying to wade into your disagreement with someone else, but, as you are probably aware, Transparency International bases it's Corruption Index on perceptions of people in international organizations outside of Thailand.

In addition, even if you wanted to argue that it is the best unbiased international view we have, you should know that even Transparency International views that corruption in Thailand is worse in 2013 compared to 2012.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

As others have said before it is more instructive to look at time series data than just two successive years.

1999-2010 (a lower ranking is better):

1999: 68

2000: 60

2001: 61

2002: 64

2003: 70

2004: 64

2005: 59

2006: 63

2007: 84

2008: 80

2009: 84

2010: 78

Those who call for a coup as the way to end corruption might be interested in what happened last time.

See this article by Walker

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2011/07/09/thailands-corruption-record/

It has to be conceded though that the TI data have their problems. Here is an interesting article explaining some of the problems that arise with time series analysis. Because the TI instrument is a compilation of several different indexes of corruption, and because the measures use change over time, there is some doubt about the comparability of scores from different years.

siteresources.worldbank.org/INTWBIGOVANTCOR/Resources/TransparencyInternationalCorruptionIndex.pdf

The morale may be that the scores are a starting point for analysis but need to be treated with caution. Certainly it isn’t very bright to build an argument on figures from just two years without looking at longer term trends and also how the instrument is put together.

The reason I gave just two years is because 2013 and 2012 are the most current and I was lazy. Note, in the index I was looking at, the higher the better. Probably the same trends.

There is no question, given the often lack of transparencies, using indices for corruption is a shot in the dark at best (pun intended).

Since you like New Mandala, look at AW's recent analysis on Thaksinomics.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Baerboxer]

This article is very thoughtful. Amazing that a corrupt politician like Suthep could be still leading any reform movement in Thailand.

Why is this so amazing when the country has been governed by a convicted fugitive criminal fraudster from exile for the last 2.5 years?

Amazing Thailand - certainly is!

[citizen33]

The reason I gave just two years is because 2013 and 2012 are the most current and I was lazy. Note, in the index I was looking at, the higher the better. Probably the same trends.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

The main point surely is that just taking the last two years gives a completely misleading picture about when the biggest surges in corruption occurred - but you wouldn't be the only one to ensure that the evidence doesn't get in the way of a good story.

[Old Man River]

The reason I gave just two years is because 2013 and 2012 are the most current and I was lazy. Note, in the index I was looking at, the higher the better. Probably the same trends.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

The main point surely is that just taking the last two years gives a completely misleading picture about when the biggest surges in corruption occurred - but you wouldn't be the only one to ensure that the evidence doesn't get in the way of a good story.

I was responding to someone else and we were discussing the current government, not the Thaksin era. Hence, the "evidence" was not being hidden by either of us. There is not 10 years of data on the current government.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[ikke]

A nation does not make a better democracy by abandoning democracy.

Some tell that idiot Suthep this. But of course you know he would not understand it because he is an X democrat.

Someone did obviously as Suthep never wanted to abandoning democracy. Actually he want to end vote buying.

555, hahaha, you really don't get his point, as the only thing he wants is abandoning democracy , do you really think he does not buy votes in the south... wake up and go against him, or sleep and stay with the Hitler jugend, as you sounds like them ........

It might be a good idea to youtube on Hitler 1935, you will see a perfect copy of what happens today in bkk.....

[binjalin]

This article is very thoughtful. Amazing that a corrupt politician like Suthep could be still leading any reform movement in Thailand.

Why is this so amazing when the country has been governed by a convicted fugitive criminal fraudster from exile for the last 2.5 years?

Amazing Thailand - certainly is!

so naive - it's pitiful

[jackrich]

Those who have lived in Phuket long enough may remember a little of Suthep Thaugsubans questionable record. In 1995, as Agriculture Minister, he was responsible for the SorPorKor 4-01 land reform scheme, in which the deeds to plots of empty land were supposed to be distributed to poor farmers around the country.

In Phuket, an investigation revealed that 11 of the islands richest families were among the recipients of this property.

A corrupt politician claiming to be the champion of anti-corruption.

[JRSoul]

Those who have lived in Phuket long enough may remember a little of Suthep Thaugsubans questionable record. In 1995, as Agriculture Minister, he was responsible for the SorPorKor 4-01 land reform scheme, in which the deeds to plots of empty land were supposed to be distributed to poor farmers around the country.

In Phuket, an investigation revealed that 11 of the islands richest families were among the recipients of this property.

A corrupt politician claiming to be the champion of anti-corruption.

But he was elected; isn't corruption allowable when you are elected?

[jackrich]

Those who have lived in Phuket long enough may remember a little of Suthep Thaugsubans questionable record. In 1995, as Agriculture Minister, he was responsible for the SorPorKor 4-01 land reform scheme, in which the deeds to plots of empty land were supposed to be distributed to poor farmers around the country.

In Phuket, an investigation revealed that 11 of the islands richest families were among the recipients of this property.

A corrupt politician claiming to be the champion of anti-corruption.

But he was elected; isn't corruption allowable when you are elected?

If that's the case, what is he complaining about? Seems like he is protesting against people like himself.

If he's so anti-corruption, why doesn't he just start with taking his own ass to jail?

[khunsiam]

A nation does not make a better democracy by abandoning democracy.

Some tell that idiot Suthep this. But of course you know he would not understand it because he is an X democrat.

f democracy here means a one party taksin state where his government can legalise all his crimes by amnesty and openly say they wont accept decision of courts then ill welcome anything that gets rid of him.

Remember Hitler Mugabwie Saddam and rest were all elected so if someone had stopped them in time a lot of lives would have been saved and a lot of misery avoided

You would just let Taksin continue and then in a few years wring your hands in despair at seeing Thailand become a one party police Taksin state

Thats funny because Suthep is acting far far more right wing than Thaksin ever has... great choice these two...... not

There is no evidence for this misconception of yours. Strange conclusion to draw????

Oh Babe, foreigners don't get it yet! Suthep 's put on the forefront by the PAD who are the real masterminds behind all this.

[GazR]

what is truly "Amazing" is some Thais (and some TVF posters) really think democracy is not 'worth it' and should not be given to those 'poor farmers'

let's reiterate - the only way for us to know how many Thais support Dear Leader Suthep is to have an... wait for it.... drum roll... ELECTION

but he doesn't want that - i mean why rely on democracy when you can just take over?

I am one of those TVF posters. While I support elections, I think there should be voter restrictions in countries where the population is as uneducated as in Thailand.

The reason we do not let children decide on most issues, is because they do not yet know what is best for them - and others. This is also the case for many adults.

Everyone should of course have the opportunity to vote, but perhaps people should meet some criteria other than being over 18 in order to vote. Perhaps a national test on some general knowledge would be the answer. Everyone can then study a bit in order to pass the test, and then vote.

As it is, any idiot could win a Thai election simply by promising to borrow a ton of money and distribute the money evenly to all Thais, therefore traditional democracy is not a good solution for Thailand.

Further, I am no fan of Suthep, and don't want him as either MP or PM. However I do support his attempt at getting rid of the Shinawatras. The PTP can stay, they can even stay in power for all I care, just without the Shinawatras.

For an example of how a 'super full adult franchise' (my term) democratic electoral system might work in practice, I refer you to 'The Curious Republic of Gwandor' by Mark Twain. It is one which I would support.

[GazR]

300 people let white balloons go today in BKK to protest FOR an election

According to Khun Suthep's Accounting Dept. it was 300,000 people

300, what a massive turnout, I am thoroughly impressed. They weren´t the former PTP MPs by any chance?

Wasn't the ex elected Democrats there were not enough of them !

How anyone could understand the above gibberish enough to 'Like' it is beyond my comprehension.