Pro-govt Red Shirts to counter 'Bangkok shutdown'

[NCFC]

Problems in this paradise started the day Thailand was "colonised" by the thai chinese. Period.

Today's problems can be traced to the last century;

1. The Anglo- Siamese Treaty of 1909: This sowed the seeds of the southern conflict,. The British colonial occupiers of Malaysia carved out the northern part of Malaya and gave the Sultanate of Pattani to Thailand. Had, the region been left with the region to which it belonged, we would not have a southern insurgency today.

2. The French Colonial rule in Indochina left the region messed up and sowed the seeds for successful anti colonial movements led by communists. The fear of communists led the USA to back any country that was "anti communist". Thailand played off this fear to the hilt taking advantage of the US generosity/largesse which put large amounts of money into play, sowing the seeds of mega corruption.

3. The failure of the allies after WWII to purge Thailand of the nationalists who had supported and emulated the Nazis &/Japanese. These ultra nationalists remained, causing a blight on the country and sowing the seeds for a reliance upon dictatorships and the suppression of basic human rights.

4. The refusal of the west to reprimand Thailand for its human rights abuses and defacto support of human trafficking. (The change in attitudes only came about recently after Australia and Canada came close to sending warships into Thailand's territorial waters in an effort to stop the deluge of bogus Tamil refugees who were using Thailand as a jumping off point. The tough response led by Australia sent a strong message never given before.) Unfortunately, the continued support of the USA to Thailand in the hopes of countering Chinese influence in the region reinforces the Thai presumption of being untouchable.

5. The quiet support the Chinese have shown to whatever regime suits its interests, also reinforces the Thai presumption of being untouchable.

All five points blame outside influences. I think the Thais need to take a good hard look at the system they themselves have created rather than blame outsiders for their woes.

Edited January 10, 2014 by NCFC

[smileydude]

Just spotted a group of around 200 people on trucks and motorbikes on Lad Prao rd making a lot of noise waving placards with "Bangkok open 24/7".

They were wearing white shirts

They are known as the 3rd group trying to advocate no coup, no violence, pro-vote on Feb 2.

They are actually led by red shirts (Korkaew Pikultong) masquerading as civil people to deceive those who believe Suthep is too radical, to join them in order to lull us into voting, which of course will turn into a farce as the EC plans to store the ballot boxes at Police Stations nationwide.

They plan to lead a candle lit protest.

Of course the candles will come in handy when you want to burn things.

Hmmmm... Yet another Red Shirt Leader violating his bail conditions.

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1389345373.383969.jpg

Korkaew Pikultong

Ahh yes, I forgot he was violating his bail.

He'll probably plead either "insanity", "I forgot" or "an alien told me to do it".

I guess jail "violates" people they therefore feel it necessary to "violate" their terms

[millwall_fan]

I'll see your 7 sites and raise you one. I don't think the yellow shirts will take to kindly to this. Sure the reds have exactly the same right to protest as the yellows do but this could get nasty.

Well that is the red shirt way of doing things isn't it.

City halls burned down fire engines burned up attempt to burn Bangkok down.

Throwing things at other parties rallies and in general trying to disrupt them.sorry If I missed any thing. O yes here in Chiang Mai throwing bottles and blocking a parade of anti government protesters.

Oh yes and armed attempt to over throw government.

You have A fine set of people on your side.

Real civic leaders. Democracy at the end of a gun and all that.

A fine group to look up to.

Going to save Thailand from those anti corruption do gooders. alt=cheesy.gif pagespeed_url_hash=3951237149 width=32 height=20>

My side what is my side? The criminal Thaksin and his band of thugs or the dangerous raving Lunatic Suthep and his t

Not to hard to figure out when you have one side proven to be the way you state them to be and the other side just your unsubstantiated accusations. Now why would you make them?

Indeed raving lunatic. Raving about cleaning up corruption in Thailand.

Is that your idea of a lunatic?

If so Thailand needs more of them.

Once and for all, can you try to understand that Mr.Suthep and his patrons do NOT want to 'clean up corruption'. They want to be the beneficiaries of corruption as they were before. Now the Shin clan controls the corrupt money and that rankles with the ruling elite. If Adolf Suthep was so keen to clear up corruption, why did he not do so when he was in power just 2 and a half short years ago? Or are you suggesting that his government was corruption free?

[lostmebike]

@ Millwall

Agreed.

Regardless of who is in power and what promises they make to improve or clean up corruption, it aint gonna happen.

If there is to be a change in the ruling party, you watch; in 2 or 3 years time, the Thai's will soon get bored of them and return to the streets of BKK screaming and shouting again for another change citing corruption and greed as the 'cancer from within that needs to be eradicated from Thai society'. Just like a whirl pool, round and round and...

[rubl]

Not to hard to figure out when you have one side proven to be the way you state them to be and the other side just your unsubstantiated accusations. Now why would you make them?

Indeed raving lunatic. Raving about cleaning up corruption in Thailand.

Is that your idea of a lunatic?

If so Thailand needs more of them.

Once and for all, can you try to understand that Mr.Suthep and his patrons do NOT want to 'clean up corruption'. They want to be the beneficiaries of corruption as they were before. Now the Shin clan controls the corrupt money and that rankles with the ruling elite. If Adolf Suthep was so keen to clear up corruption, why did he not do so when he was in power just 2 and a half short years ago? Or are you suggesting that his government was corruption free?

I appreciate your opinion, but do not agree with it.

BTW 'Suthep in power 2-1/2 years ago?', 'his government'? Are you referring to the Democrat party led coalition government under PM Abhisit?

[MaxLee]

Pro-govt UDD to counter ‘Bangkok shutdown’

Yep,... and the project will be called:

Pro-govt UDD to counter ‘Bangkok shutdown with Bangkok-ONLY -Bangkok annihilation’

[seajae]

got to admit, if I had a dog that ugly I would shave its arse and teach it to walk backwards

[diehard60]

I wish everyone would get this name right " People’s Democratic Reform Committee (PDRC)" People's Dictatorship Reform Committee is the correct name.

[ericnoodeeka]

Suthep knows exactly what the UDD is paying its protesters because he is paying his protesters the same.

My Thai wife and her girlfriend are part of this protest and have not been paid 1 baht

so either you tell big fibbies or they and thousands of other are being ripped of by not being paid

I think the 1st one fits you

Just repeating what my lady friend has told me her friends were offered.

i repeated the same thing about 2 weeks ago, but you then get called a troll. or asked for evidence, as if i go around all day taping peoples comments.

it seems clear to me after living here for 6 years, some people on both sides get paid, and lots of them dont.

but he, im just a guest and as long as it doesnt affect me its ok, all will be the same same in a very short time,

whoever is in power.change??? ha, not in the next 200 years.

rant over, going to a wedding now to enjoy the evening. happy new year to all.

[potters]

Could you imagine if Mad Bitch Thida got jiggy with Mad Dog Suthep

what the offspring would be like.

Heres One

[rubl]

I wish everyone would get this name right " People’s Democratic Reform Committee (PDRC)" People's Dictatorship Reform Committee is the correct name.

Ah! You mean as in UDD = United Front for Dictatorship against Democracy?

[fab4]

'pulled it' ?

The government was telling all 'don't protest, lots of procedures to follow, go home' when the first details of the modified 'blanket amnesty bill' became known and protests started. Then two readings and two votes in hardly more than 24 hours. Followed by another 'please wait, go home, the senate ...'. Well if the senate hadn't heard voices of discontent they might have though 'no protest, so OK'. Now that bill is waiting for a 180-day period, it's not pulled'. Only six other amnesty bill proposals still waiting for reading in parliament were 'pulled'.

And of course the (trying to) pull wool over our eyes

Senate rejected it because govt told their Senators to reject it. But the anti-govt group of 40 appointed senators were trying to keep it alive for as long as possible in order to encourage the protesters. Of course, if I were them I would've done exactly the same. They could've pushed for its amendment back to the original proposal of just ordinary people if they'd wanted to make sure it was completely dead (per Alongkorn's suggestion - and he is someone I feel genuinely cares about the national interest). Anyway, you sure the bill can still be reaffirmed after 180 days even though the house has been dissolved? Even if it can, it's pretty irrelevant now. Do you think govt would try to reaffirm it after an election and have all this on their hands again? I mean, I know these guys are pretty dumb, but...

Anyway, the govt did backtrack which is a sign it isn't quite the autocratic govt that people accuse it of being. Remember, in the UK, a much bigger protest failed to stop the Iraq war (consent 'steamrollered' through parliament after only 10 hours of debate), and the government had lied about the basis for going to war too. Was Blair an autocrat? I mean there have been many protests in the UK, some relatively violent, and I can't remember the last thing the government - whether this one or the last one - changed their mind on.

This links in to the reform issue. Thais have an idealized vision of western democracy whilst doing down their own. Take this, I feel like I've just read something quite ridiculous: https://www.facebook.com/MichaelYonFanPage/posts/760033830691006?stream_ref=10

'Our current Constitution has bred a system of capitalist autocracy, which is an autocracy by a group of capitalists in the form of a political party, operating under a parliamentary system. This is the result of the following three provisions of the Constitution: (1) Members of Parliament must belong to a political party; (2) a political party can expel its members for disobeying party resolutions (resulting in such members losing their MP status); and (3) a Prime Minister must be a Member of Parliament. (Thailand is the only country on earth that has such rules.) This system of capitalist autocracy, in which those with money buy votes and obtain absolute power of the State in a parliamentary system, has led to gross corruption. It is a seizing of absolute power by a group of capitalists.'

I'd actually agree that MPs shouldn't have to belong to a party, but how many 'independent' MPs are there in countries which allow independent candidates anyway? In the UK I think there are like 6? And it's not that difficult in Thailand can register a party pretty easily and run as MP. The reason they put this rule in was to try to become more like other countries which have established political parties. It's not going to change much if you remove it. Points (2), and (3) seem to me to be obvious nonsense. In the UK, at least, of course a party can suspend or expel you if you refuse to follow the party whip.

It's just part of a continuing theme of Thai exceptionalism. The guy actually admits other democracies have been through this stage. Yet his solution seems to be to overthrow it, rather than going down the route countries that now have stable democratic systems did, which is to muddle on through. Protest, yes, vigorously or even violently. That's part of democracy and part of improving democracy. But continually tearing up constitutions and throwing out elected governments, no. Continued commitment to democratic process instead of relying on 'outside forces' is what achieved stable and relatively clean, responsive, democratic systems in the West.

Still leaves a lot to be desired, even in the West, but the continual struggle is how to improve it, not overthrow it.

The truth will set you free, dear Empty.

The PM had said it's up to the Senators. She also said not to interfere with it or pressure senators. Lots of senators also refused to be pressured into a quickly moved forward session of the senate on debating of and voting on the bill as frantically tried to push by the Senate House Speaker.

That's what happens if a bill passes a third reading, rub, it's passed to the Senate for deliberation. It's part of that checks and balances thing you and yours are always on about. The PM was quite right to say it was the responsibility of the Senators - do you have a problem with that? There's a 150 of them and there all big boys now and can make their own mind up, or has Thaksin bought all of the Senate and the Speaker too? Of course it was really rushed through

After more than 12 hours of debate, the Thai Senate late Monday rejected the controversial blanket amnesty bill that has triggered the latest anti-government street protests. http://www.voanews.com/content/thai-senate-votes-down-controversial-bill-/1788273.html

Such an easy retort and lazy way to debate, Thaksin runs this, Thaksin runs that.........pathetic.

[rubl]

The truth will set you free, dear Empty.

The PM had said it's up to the Senators. She also said not to interfere with it or pressure senators. Lots of senators also refused to be pressured into a quickly moved forward session of the senate on debating of and voting on the bill as frantically tried to push by the Senate House Speaker.

That's what happens if a bill passes a third reading, rub, it's passed to the Senate for deliberation. It's part of that checks and balances thing you and yours are always on about. The PM was quite right to say it was the responsibility of the Senators - do you have a problem with that? There's a 150 of them and there all big boys now and can make their own mind up, or has Thaksin bought all of the Senate and the Speaker too? Of course it was really rushed through

After more than 12 hours of debate, the Thai Senate late Monday rejected the controversial blanket amnesty bill that has triggered the latest anti-government street protests. http://www.voanews.com/content/thai-senate-votes-down-controversial-bill-/1788273.html

Such an easy retort and lazy way to debate, Thaksin runs this, Thaksin runs that.........pathetic.

As I mentioned the truth sets you free, oh Fab4.

"Yingluck called on anti-government groups yesterday to end protests after agreeing to their demand to scrap the controversial bill. The parliament scrapped six amnesty proposals yesterday, and the Senate is scheduled to vote on a seventh at 2 p.m. today. She has said the government won’t seek to revive the draft law if it is rejected by the Senate."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-07/baht-outlook-dims-as-amnesty-bill-sparks-unrest-southeast-asia.html

PLUS:

"Senate Speaker Nikom Wairatpanich abruptly called a Senate meeting this afternoon to speed up deliberation of the controversial bill which was passed by the House of Representatives last Friday."

"Nikom said he would wait until 2 pm for the Senate to make quorum."

3PM: "Despite the lack of quorum, the Senate speaker was still waiting for more senators to join the meeting."

later that same day "Nikom informed 69 senators in the assembly hall that the meeting would be postponed to Monday when the bill would be "withheld"."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/680295-40-senators-group-boycotting-todays-amnesty-bill-debate/page-2

And of course the very democratic "How the bill was pushed through"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/678861-how-the-thai-amnesty-bill-was-pushed-through/

PS I'm puzzled by your "Thaksin this, Thaksin that". I didn't mention our favorite criminal fugitive at all here.

[tezzainoz]

I wish everyone would get this name right " People’s Democratic Reform Committee (PDRC)" People's Dictatorship Reform Committee is the correct name.

Ah! You mean as in UDD = United Front for Dictatorship against Democracy?

100$% correct

[fab4]

The truth will set you free, dear Empty.

The PM had said it's up to the Senators. She also said not to interfere with it or pressure senators. Lots of senators also refused to be pressured into a quickly moved forward session of the senate on debating of and voting on the bill as frantically tried to push by the Senate House Speaker.

That's what happens if a bill passes a third reading, rub, it's passed to the Senate for deliberation. It's part of that checks and balances thing you and yours are always on about. The PM was quite right to say it was the responsibility of the Senators - do you have a problem with that? There's a 150 of them and there all big boys now and can make their own mind up, or has Thaksin bought all of the Senate and the Speaker too? Of course it was really rushed through

After more than 12 hours of debate, the Thai Senate late Monday rejected the controversial blanket amnesty bill that has triggered the latest anti-government street protests. http://www.voanews.com/content/thai-senate-votes-down-controversial-bill-/1788273.html

Such an easy retort and lazy way to debate, Thaksin runs this, Thaksin runs that.........pathetic.

As I mentioned the truth sets you free, oh Fab4.

"Yingluck called on anti-government groups yesterday to end protests after agreeing to their demand to scrap the controversial bill. The parliament scrapped six amnesty proposals yesterday, and the Senate is scheduled to vote on a seventh at 2 p.m. today. She has said the government won’t seek to revive the draft law if it is rejected by the Senate."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-07/baht-outlook-dims-as-amnesty-bill-sparks-unrest-southeast-asia.html

PLUS:

"Senate Speaker Nikom Wairatpanich abruptly called a Senate meeting this afternoon to speed up deliberation of the controversial bill which was passed by the House of Representatives last Friday."

"Nikom said he would wait until 2 pm for the Senate to make quorum."

3PM: "Despite the lack of quorum, the Senate speaker was still waiting for more senators to join the meeting."

later that same day "Nikom informed 69 senators in the assembly hall that the meeting would be postponed to Monday when the bill would be "withheld"."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/680295-40-senators-group-boycotting-todays-amnesty-bill-debate/page-2

And of course the very democratic "How the bill was pushed through"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/678861-how-the-thai-amnesty-bill-was-pushed-through/

PS I'm puzzled by your "Thaksin this, Thaksin that". I didn't mention our favorite criminal fugitive at all here.

I'm puzzled by your links - they basically say the group of 40 Senators boycotted the debate. I'm sorry but I don't regard boycotting a debate a legitimate debating technique especially in a supposedly responsible position such as the Senate.

Can you tell me what happened to the Amnesty Bill? - it was rejected wasn't it and the PTP said it wouldn't be revived? Of course this wasn't good enough for Khun Mark.

Oh No, those dastardly PTP MP's will re submit the bill as soon as our backs are turned. How we going to stop it? I know, lets boycott the elections and put all our weight and money behind suthep and his unelected council. That'll show them!

Edited January 10, 2014 by fab4

[hellodolly]

@ All the various responses to my posts. I have read your various replies with interest, and I thank you all very kindly. My angle on all this, if it helps to respond to your points, is that I see 3 possible situations open at present.

Number 1 : Suthep's Assembly takes over, unelected, so-far fairly conceptual and vague with 'reform first' being the priority, and some sub-sections under the reform-first offering. Problems (imho) it is unelected, it may be just as corrupt and autocratic than the current mess, it will lead to a huge angry Hulk Smash response from people who went to the polls and voted-in the PTP Govt.

Number 2 : Do nothing. Let the elections come and PTP walk in again, by base and boosted by all the people who got sick of the recent protests. And leave the mechanisms of Parliament unchanged and unregulated. More of the same.

Number 3 : What I was trying to suggest, in my own severely handicapped way, is that elections go ahead but that the opposition parties insist on reform within parliament. And that other high ranking members of society who understand basic economics and know where all this *circus of endless revolts/upheavals is already and will lead Thailand*, and don't wish to see this situation continue, and demand further regulation and reform <importantly> within the democratic parliamentary system.

One specific point was raised re; debate and this being nulled by majority voting, in the forms I suggested is a more sophisticated diffusion of power/control, which fractionalises and means that while individual votes count, power domination is not possible. This is maths, and is not an issue anyway because under my proposal, there is a Goldstar system at the endpoint of the debate/voting, which is that the policy has to be for the "benefit of Thailand" : this being the top card that holds the table over anything.

Also, under what I suggested, the "Amnesty-bill" would have got blocked pre-debate. Criminals who have broken the law do not get amnesty, its a ludicrous idea. The very proposal of this is by its very nature pro-crime, and under a strict system would be blocked at step one, and not even debated.

Well I have to admit I like number 3

Number 3 : What I was trying to suggest, in my own severely handicapped way, is that elections go ahead but that the opposition parties insist on reform within parliament. And that other high ranking members of society who understand basic economics and know where all this *circus of endless revolts/upheavals is already and will lead Thailand*, and don't wish to see this situation continue, and demand further regulation and reform <importantly> within the democratic parliamentary system.

I find it more idealistic than practicable. First off you are dealing with politicians. There first thing on their list of priorities is to get reelected. The second thing is to get as much money as they can over and above their pay check.

To achieve these goals they will tell you any thing. If reform was going to get them reelected and make them rich they would do it. But don't hold your breath.

In my opinion no matter when the elections are held the PTP will win. Mind you they will come in with their tail between there legs knowing that there opposition will be watching them. The PTP has long assumed that because they had the backing of the uneducated and a lot of them also being thugs that no one else would watch them. Wrong.

They were being watched and tolerated but there insistence on white washing Thaksin was carried way to far and they rose up. They should have dropped it the moment it became apparent it was unpopular with the people. Once aroused the people let lose and we find are selves in the position we are today. All for the sake of one man.

Do you really think people like that are going to try to reform the government. Also the other parties are still going to want in for a piece of the pie. Most of them far less greedy than the PTP. Once elected the only reform will to be make it harder for the people to tell them they are tired of being screwed out of their money just so some greedy people can fill there closets after they have filled their bank accounts as much as they can with out arousing suspicion.

Forgot about the houses and pink cars

[hellodolly]

My side what is my side? The criminal Thaksin and his band of thugs or the dangerous raving Lunatic Suthep and his t

Well that is the red shirt way of doing things isn't it.

City halls burned down fire engines burned up attempt to burn Bangkok down.

Throwing things at other parties rallies and in general trying to disrupt them.sorry If I missed any thing. O yes here in Chiang Mai throwing bottles and blocking a parade of anti government protesters.

Oh yes and armed attempt to over throw government.

You have A fine set of people on your side.

Real civic leaders. Democracy at the end of a gun and all that.

A fine group to look up to.

Going to save Thailand from those anti corruption do gooders. alt=cheesy.gif pagespeed_url_hash=3951237149 width=32 height=20>

Not to hard to figure out when you have one side proven to be the way you state them to be and the other side just your unsubstantiated accusations. Now why would you make them?

Indeed raving lunatic. Raving about cleaning up corruption in Thailand.

Is that your idea of a lunatic?

If so Thailand needs more of them.

Once and for all, can you try to understand that Mr.Suthep and his patrons do NOT want to 'clean up corruption'. They want to be the beneficiaries of corruption as they were before. Now the Shin clan controls the corrupt money and that rankles with the ruling elite. If Adolf Suthep was so keen to clear up corruption, why did he not do so when he was in power just 2 and a half short years ago? Or are you suggesting that his government was corruption free?

They want to be the beneficiaries of corruption as they were before.

Well you are new here so you don't know any thing. These people have never been in control before. They are a new movement. Suthep was the number two man under the Democrats. If you had been here in Thailand you would know that the Democrats were put in to the PM office by a coalition of different parties. They did not have the power to clean up corruption. But they did have enough to stop the growth of it. From the time the army turned it over to the Thaksin led parties the corruption sky rocketed up. When the democrats got in the corruption leveled off. When Yingluck got in it sky rocked again. Just in the last year she managed to take corruption from 65% to 67%. Source

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

That pretty well takes care of your nonsense about them being in power before and Suthep being in a position to do much about it.

Look at reality he was a part of a minority party that with the backing of other parties managed to stop the rise of corruption until Thaksin got back in the driver seat. I just give you facts and a reputable source not bar room talk.

[hellodolly]

@ Millwall

Agreed.

Regardless of who is in power and what promises they make to improve or clean up corruption, it aint gonna happen.

If there is to be a change in the ruling party, you watch; in 2 or 3 years time, the Thai's will soon get bored of them and return to the streets of BKK screaming and shouting again for another change citing corruption and greed as the 'cancer from within that needs to be eradicated from Thai society'. Just like a whirl pool, round and round and...

Sadly I have to agree there will be a continuing power struggle no matter who gets in.

On the positive side this time there is a side that really wants reform in a positive way. It will not happen over night but that is no reason to oppose it.

It will take many years as there is a lot to be dug out and not every one working on the project will be honest. But there is now a light at the end of the tunnel. Unlike education which will take 2 to 3 generations to reform this will only take 1 generation.

I say that even thinking that the present gang of corrupt leaders will win the next election but they will cut back on their activities because they now know that they are being watched. Also they will not have as much power.

[waza]

That's what happens if a bill passes a third reading, rub, it's passed to the Senate for deliberation. It's part of that checks and balances thing you and yours are always on about. The PM was quite right to say it was the responsibility of the Senators - do you have a problem with that? There's a 150 of them and there all big boys now and can make their own mind up, or has Thaksin bought all of the Senate and the Speaker too? Of course it was really rushed through

After more than 12 hours of debate, the Thai Senate late Monday rejected the controversial blanket amnesty bill that has triggered the latest anti-government street protests. http://www.voanews.com/content/thai-senate-votes-down-controversial-bill-/1788273.html

Such an easy retort and lazy way to debate, Thaksin runs this, Thaksin runs that.........pathetic.

As I mentioned the truth sets you free, oh Fab4.

"Yingluck called on anti-government groups yesterday to end protests after agreeing to their demand to scrap the controversial bill. The parliament scrapped six amnesty proposals yesterday, and the Senate is scheduled to vote on a seventh at 2 p.m. today. She has said the government won’t seek to revive the draft law if it is rejected by the Senate."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-07/baht-outlook-dims-as-amnesty-bill-sparks-unrest-southeast-asia.html

PLUS:

"Senate Speaker Nikom Wairatpanich abruptly called a Senate meeting this afternoon to speed up deliberation of the controversial bill which was passed by the House of Representatives last Friday."

"Nikom said he would wait until 2 pm for the Senate to make quorum."

3PM: "Despite the lack of quorum, the Senate speaker was still waiting for more senators to join the meeting."

later that same day "Nikom informed 69 senators in the assembly hall that the meeting would be postponed to Monday when the bill would be "withheld"."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/680295-40-senators-group-boycotting-todays-amnesty-bill-debate/page-2

And of course the very democratic "How the bill was pushed through"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/678861-how-the-thai-amnesty-bill-was-pushed-through/

PS I'm puzzled by your "Thaksin this, Thaksin that". I didn't mention our favorite criminal fugitive at all here.

I'm puzzled by your links - they basically say the group of 40 Senators boycotted the debate. I'm sorry but I don't regard boycotting a debate a legitimate debating technique especially in a supposedly responsible position such as the Senate.

Can you tell me what happened to the Amnesty Bill? - it was rejected wasn't it and the PTP said it wouldn't be revived? Of course this wasn't good enough for Khun Mark.

Oh No, those dastardly PTP MP's will re submit the bill as soon as our backs are turned. How we going to stop it? I know, lets boycott the elections and put all our weight and money behind suthep and his unelected council. That'll show them!

More of fab4's fabrications and he even has gone so far as putting words in Abihists mouth!

How ever you try to divert the topic it is clear that the only reason the reds are gathering is to counter the anti-government protestors, to confront, to agitate and to cause disruption. They intend to be provocative to the point of inciting violence as it has been clearly demonstrated already.

[ultimate weapon]

Problems in this paradise started the day Thailand was "colonised" by the thai chinese. Period.

The same can be said about white colonization of various countries but somehow you are willing to overlook that. You should visit stormfront over there they blame all of YT's problems on a minority group called the Jews certainly you would fit right in there.

[ultimate weapon]

Problems in this paradise started the day Thailand was "colonised" by the thai chinese. Period.

Today's problems can be traced to the last century;

1. The Anglo- Siamese Treaty of 1909: This sowed the seeds of the southern conflict,. The British colonial occupiers of Malaysia carved out the northern part of Malaya and gave the Sultanate of Pattani to Thailand. Had, the region been left with the region to which it belonged, we would not have a southern insurgency today.

2. The French Colonial rule in Indochina left the region messedl up and sowed the seeds for successful anti colonial movements led by communists. The fear of communists led the USA to back any country that was "anti communist". Thailand played off this fear to the hilt taking advantage of the US generosity/largesse which put large amounts of money into play, sowing the seeds of mega corruption.

3. The failure of the allies after WWII to purge Thailand of the nationalists who had supported and emulated the Nazis &/Japanese. These ultra nationalists remained, causing a blight on the country and sowing the seeds for a reliance upon dictatorships and the suppression of basic human rights.

4. The refusal of the west to reprimand Thailand for its human rights abuses and defacto support of human trafficking. (The change in attitudes only came about recently after Australia and Canada came close to sending warships into Thailand's territorial waters in an effort to ustop the deluge of bogus Tamil refugees who were using Thailand as a jumping off point. The tough response led by Australia sent a strong message never given before.) Unfortunately, the continued support of the USA to Thailand in the hopes of countering Chinese influence in the region reinforces the Thai presumption of being untouchable.

5. The quiet support the Chinese have shown to whatever regime suits its interests, also reinforces the Thai presumption of being untouchable.

L

All of these problems looks to have been caused by westerners and not thai Chinese of course we can see ppl suddenly dismiss them. Suppose it was china that divided up the south instead of the uk the ppl here would be on a race filled rant on Chinese.

[mikemac]

Problems in this paradise started the day Thailand was "colonised" by the thai chinese. Period.

Today's problems can be traced to the last century;

1. The Anglo- Siamese Treaty of 1909: This sowed the seeds of the southern conflict,. The British colonial occupiers of Malaysia carved out the northern part of Malaya and gave the Sultanate of Pattani to Thailand. Had, the region been left with the region to which it belonged, we would not have a southern insurgency today.

2. The French Colonial rule in Indochina left the region messed up and sowed the seeds for successful anti colonial movements led by communists. The fear of communists led the USA to back any country that was "anti communist". Thailand played off this fear to the hilt taking advantage of the US generosity/largesse which put large amounts of money into play, sowing the seeds of mega corruption.

3. The failure of the allies after WWII to purge Thailand of the nationalists who had supported and emulated the Nazis &/Japanese. These ultra nationalists remained, causing a blight on the country and sowing the seeds for a reliance upon dictatorships and the suppression of basic human rights.

4. The refusal of the west to reprimand Thailand for its human rights abuses and defacto support of human trafficking. (The change in attitudes only came about recently after Australia and Canada came close to sending warships into Thailand's territorial waters in an effort to stop the deluge of bogus Tamil refugees who were using Thailand as a jumping off point. The tough response led by Australia sent a strong message never given before.) Unfortunately, the continued support of the USA to Thailand in the hopes of countering Chinese influence in the region reinforces the Thai presumption of being untouchable.

5. The quiet support the Chinese have shown to whatever regime suits its interests, also reinforces the Thai presumption of being untouchable.

All five points blame outside influences. I think the Thais need to take a good hard look at the system they themselves have created rather than blame outsiders for their woes.

I would have simplified the rather long winded ramble by saying - "Today's problems can be traced to the Shinawatras"............although the Shins would be quite happy to heap the blame on the British, the French, the USA, the Chinese and the Muslims.

[slipperylobster]

There was a huge rally last night, to continue this weekend, near the Udon Thani Municipal Hall and Prajak Park. Standing room only, and no parking. The Red shirts will be heading to Bangkok on buses very soon. We usually go for a walk/jog around that area on a daily basis, but cannot get close. This place is only a 10 minute walk from my house, and the speakers were blasting away. They sounded pretty serious. Also have another group that is involved (not yellow nor red). Both these groups do not what that Bangkok Shutdown to happen.

Based on the attack of a bus a few weeks ago, I hope they do not escalate the violence and keep it peaceful.

Thats pretty naive of me... Everyone is zeroing in on the Big Event.

[slipperylobster]

Perhaps time for all sides to stand down, relinquish power, and install a temporary council, with limited power, to keep things running. Are there any other options?

[mikemac]

There was a huge rally last night, to continue this weekend, near the Udon Thani Municipal Hall and Prajak Park. Standing room only, and no parking. The Red shirts will be heading to Bangkok on buses very soon. We usually go for a walk/jog around that area on a daily basis, but cannot get close. This place is only a 10 minute walk from my house, and the speakers were blasting away. They sounded pretty serious. Also have another group that is involved (not yellow nor red). Both these groups do not what that Bangkok Shutdown to happen.

Based on the attack of a bus a few weeks ago, I hope they do not escalate the violence and keep it peaceful.

Thats pretty naive of me... Everyone is zeroing in on the Big Event.

Sorry slippery, but if the redshirts are involved there will be violence. The orders come from the top. It is their modus operandi.

[Yunla]

Well I have to admit I like number 3

I find it more idealistic than practicable. First off you are dealing with politicians. There first thing on their list of priorities is to get reelected. The second thing is to get as much money as they can over and above their pay check.

To achieve these goals they will tell you any thing. If reform was going to get them reelected and make them rich they would do it. But don't hold your breath.

In my opinion no matter when the elections are held the PTP will win. Mind you they will come in with their tail between there legs knowing that there opposition will be watching them. The PTP has long assumed that because they had the backing of the uneducated and a lot of them also being thugs that no one else would watch them. Wrong.

They were being watched and tolerated but there insistence on white washing Thaksin was carried way to far and they rose up. They should have dropped it the moment it became apparent it was unpopular with the people. Once aroused the people let lose and we find are selves in the position we are today. All for the sake of one man.

Do you really think people like that are going to try to reform the government. Also the other parties are still going to want in for a piece of the pie. Most of them far less greedy than the PTP. Once elected the only reform will to be make it harder for the people to tell them they are tired of being screwed out of their money just so some greedy people can fill there closets after they have filled their bank accounts as much as they can with out arousing suspicion.

Forgot about the houses and pink cars

I have Liked and totally agree 100% with your post, hellodolly.

I don't see any real progressive parliamentary democracies anywhere in the world 2014, and I put the same candle to all of them. When I post anywhere re; sociological issues I am posting as social scientist. In the late 1980s there was the creation of a small social-science Bulletin Board, called "Signal WT", which began on BBC microcomputers in the 1980s, and is still running today as a closed group Bulletin Board on the internet. That is my normal home, from where I moonlight to other forums, although much less so now in my failing health. The group has an Elder who is considered one of the pioneers of progressive sociology in the 20thC, although he is now very elderly and unable to write, I consider him to be the greatest mind I have ever encountered. And his position is that ; historically, in any nation on Earth, you are really faced by either progressive social thinking or by self-imposed artifical barriers to this. Those barriers are usually a self-defeating insistence on leaving things unchanged, re; Parliament, as a democratic tool it can <literally> be called a "debate system" only, and from there it is only logical to progressively augment and customise this debate system to the surrounding social climate. Thailand's social climate requires that Parliament needs a strictly regulated security-augment placed on the debate system, and customised to "result: National benefit" as singular output. As a member of this particular sociology group, for 30~ years I have my own views on the need for lower/upper houses etc. and soforth, these are historical, but from a debate-system perspective irrelevant to output if the actual debate system process has the correct security and output modes. The only thing stopping people from embracing modern empowering systems are people themselves. A smooth-running system benefits everybody - rich and poor.

Flip-side, it wont happen, nowhere on Earth for many centuries, but I feel very sorry when people are fighting in the streets, I have great fondness for Thailand and Thai people, it is always very upsetting to read about people dying and being injured here over what are fundamentally minor technical tweaks within State. I would hope that red and yellow factions withdraw now, before it gets any worse, but in my powerlessness to stop them, I find myself raising one shaking little hand and saying "you could always try this instead."

[peterbkk9]

Problems in this paradise started the day Thailand was "colonised" by the thai chinese. Period.

You are short on history. The Chinese have been here for hundreds of years, participating and contributing to the Thai economy.

Nah... Thailand has been colonized by American TV/movies and by Steve Jobs (R.I.P.)

"The Chinese have been here for hundreds of years" => colonized nevertheless

"... participating and contributing to the Thai economy." => contributed also to the arrogance of the Thai people and this "me first" and "my sh*t don't stink" attitude

[NCFC]

Well I have to admit I like number 3

I find it more idealistic than practicable. First off you are dealing with politicians. There first thing on their list of priorities is to get reelected. The second thing is to get as much money as they can over and above their pay check.

To achieve these goals they will tell you any thing. If reform was going to get them reelected and make them rich they would do it. But don't hold your breath.

In my opinion no matter when the elections are held the PTP will win. Mind you they will come in with their tail between there legs knowing that there opposition will be watching them. The PTP has long assumed that because they had the backing of the uneducated and a lot of them also being thugs that no one else would watch them. Wrong.

They were being watched and tolerated but there insistence on white washing Thaksin was carried way to far and they rose up. They should have dropped it the moment it became apparent it was unpopular with the people. Once aroused the people let lose and we find are selves in the position we are today. All for the sake of one man.

Do you really think people like that are going to try to reform the government. Also the other parties are still going to want in for a piece of the pie. Most of them far less greedy than the PTP. Once elected the only reform will to be make it harder for the people to tell them they are tired of being screwed out of their money just so some greedy people can fill there closets after they have filled their bank accounts as much as they can with out arousing suspicion.

Forgot about the houses and pink cars

I have Liked and totally agree 100% with your post, hellodolly.

I don't see any real progressive parliamentary democracies anywhere in the world 2014, and I put the same candle to all of them. When I post anywhere re; sociological issues I am posting as social scientist. In the late 1980s there was the creation of a small social-science Bulletin Board, called "Signal WT", which began on BBC microcomputers in the 1980s, and is still running today as a closed group Bulletin Board on the internet. That is my normal home, from where I moonlight to other forums, although much less so now in my failing health. The group has an Elder who is considered one of the pioneers of progressive sociology in the 20thC, although he is now very elderly and unable to write, I consider him to be the greatest mind I have ever encountered. And his position is that ; historically, in any nation on Earth, you are really faced by either progressive social thinking or by self-imposed artifical barriers to this. Those barriers are usually a self-defeating insistence on leaving things unchanged, re; Parliament, as a democratic tool it can be called a "debate system" only, and from there it is only logical to progressively augment and customise this debate system to the surrounding social climate. Thailand's social climate requires that Parliament needs a strictly regulated security-augment placed on the debate system, and customised to "result: National benefit" as singular output. As a member of this particular sociology group, for 30~ years I have my own views on the need for lower/upper houses etc. and soforth, these are historical, but from a debate-system perspective irrelevant to output if the actual debate system process has the correct security and output modes. The only thing stopping people from embracing modern empowering systems are people themselves. A smooth-running system benefits everybody - rich and poor.

Flip-side, it wont happen, nowhere on Earth for many centuries, but I feel very sorry when people are fighting in the streets, I have great fondness for Thailand and Thai people, it is always very upsetting to read about people dying and being injured here over what are fundamentally minor technical tweaks within State. I would hope that red and yellow factions withdraw now, before it gets any worse, but in my powerlessness to stop them, I find myself raising one shaking little hand and saying "you could always try this instead."

Yunla, I have always enjoyed your posts on TV so I want to ask you whether your group ever considered non-progressive social thinking as what I see in Thailand today is not just force against progressive change but an attempt to turn the clock back to at least pre-1932 times.

[Donnie Brasco]

The level of chaos presently seen in Bangkok could have been avoided if the PTP had paid attention to the signal associated with the king and queen moving to Hua Hin at the end of July when the debate regarding amnesty grew more heated. Now the nation is paying for this oversight.

This is true as far as it goes but there is a far more cogent element in play here: the Big Fat 2.2 Trillion Baht Infrastructure Loan AND WHO gets to eat it and WHEN.

If all parties to this monumental graft, patronage and corruption HOG-OUT had been issued their invitations and place cards to the feast, the PTP (yellows) would have had a much weaker platform.

The Thaksinistas chose to act like this was to be a business deal. They'd get the loan and the PTP and the lessor political factions would be left to feed off the crumbs, scraps and partially gnawed bones of the remains.

Thailand is a nation-state, a political entity. It is NOT a commercial enterprise.

A Nation State is more effectively governed by compromise and mutually beneficial compromises that (above all else) keep "peace in the valley".

The astronomical venality and artless finesse of Peua Thai's greedier gobble-hoggs when they took charge of this omnibus amnesty/loan fiasco is what blew this deal.

Even in a winner-take-all situation you always have to leave some cake for the other guy.

Failure to leave him a nice cut UNITES his forces and his resolve.

They failed to finesse.

As is this failure was not enough, Peua Thai threw in the premature amnesty mess. Had IT passed, it would have resulted in a de facto creation of a political class immune to criminal indictment. This was just too much for everyone. Even some Reds !

Politics is about the art of negotiated settlement.

Had they accepted that deal, Peua Thai would have been left PTP nothing but crumbs and begging.

Now we have THIS.

Ad the very real possibility that a World Bank, already wary of the legitimate status of Thailand lermight delay this loan in anticipation of greater stability.

Bankers are rarely in a rush.

And here's why ?

No stability = diminished investment = smaller tax base = fewer wage/tax slaves to pay the interest on the loan

Edited January 11, 2014 by Donnie Brasco

[rubl]

That's what happens if a bill passes a third reading, rub, it's passed to the Senate for deliberation. It's part of that checks and balances thing you and yours are always on about. The PM was quite right to say it was the responsibility of the Senators - do you have a problem with that? There's a 150 of them and there all big boys now and can make their own mind up, or has Thaksin bought all of the Senate and the Speaker too? Of course it was really rushed through

After more than 12 hours of debate, the Thai Senate late Monday rejected the controversial blanket amnesty bill that has triggered the latest anti-government street protests. http://www.voanews.com/content/thai-senate-votes-down-controversial-bill-/1788273.html

Such an easy retort and lazy way to debate, Thaksin runs this, Thaksin runs that.........pathetic.

As I mentioned the truth sets you free, oh Fab4.

"Yingluck called on anti-government groups yesterday to end protests after agreeing to their demand to scrap the controversial bill. The parliament scrapped six amnesty proposals yesterday, and the Senate is scheduled to vote on a seventh at 2 p.m. today. She has said the government won’t seek to revive the draft law if it is rejected by the Senate."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-07/baht-outlook-dims-as-amnesty-bill-sparks-unrest-southeast-asia.html

PLUS:

"Senate Speaker Nikom Wairatpanich abruptly called a Senate meeting this afternoon to speed up deliberation of the controversial bill which was passed by the House of Representatives last Friday."

"Nikom said he would wait until 2 pm for the Senate to make quorum."

3PM: "Despite the lack of quorum, the Senate speaker was still waiting for more senators to join the meeting."

later that same day "Nikom informed 69 senators in the assembly hall that the meeting would be postponed to Monday when the bill would be "withheld"."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/680295-40-senators-group-boycotting-todays-amnesty-bill-debate/page-2

And of course the very democratic "How the bill was pushed through"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/678861-how-the-thai-amnesty-bill-was-pushed-through/

PS I'm puzzled by your "Thaksin this, Thaksin that". I didn't mention our favorite criminal fugitive at all here.

I'm puzzled by your links - they basically say the group of 40 Senators boycotted the debate. I'm sorry but I don't regard boycotting a debate a legitimate debating technique especially in a supposedly responsible position such as the Senate.

Can you tell me what happened to the Amnesty Bill? - it was rejected wasn't it and the PTP said it wouldn't be revived? Of course this wasn't good enough for Khun Mark.

Oh No, those dastardly PTP MP's will re submit the bill as soon as our backs are turned. How we going to stop it? I know, lets boycott the elections and put all our weight and money behind suthep and his unelected council. That'll show them!

With only 60something senators present out of 150 it was just a wee bit more than just '40 boycot'. Also it would seem that senators objected to moving forward a debate which had been fixed for three days after that Friday. The Senate house Speaker didn't give any good explanation for the move forward, neither for desperately trying to influence/press senators to please come now.

As for believing the Pheu Thai led government, well. PM Yingluck suggested that no protests were necessary because a lot of more procedure to follow. Then followed the two debates/votes and more obfuscation. Then a "well, it's up to the senate" with knowing full well that without protests the senate would be inclined to say OK. Following six bills still up for debate in parliament are withdrawn with a suggestion "we already withdrew THE bill".

So, tell me, why should anyone believe this Pheu Thai government when they say "we will not"?