Political storm to come: Thailand

[kuma]

Wow. The news piece affords little in the way of taking sides, which is an indicator to me of well-written journalism. It is tragic to see this unfolding.

It will not be long before the cheerleaders on both sides are posting with their pom-poms shaking.

I would ay it is taking Malaysia's side, they would benefit from Thailand coming down a notch IMO, in their battle to be the pre-eminent ASEAN power.

[pbeukelm]

Government=violence always and everywhere. Taxation=theft

It does not matter if you won some election. The principle of democracy is not different from gang rape.it says:if I have more supporters, I have a right on your income. Two wolves and a sheep deciding what they will have for lunch by majority vote.

All power comes from the barrel of a gun. A law is someone's opinion with a gun. Resist and you will be jailed.fight your arrest and you will be shot. It is a robbery in slow motion.

Everyone is fighting for the right to subjugate the other with state coercion. It always means debt, inflation and poverty in the end.

Liberty is the only route to wealth and peace. The right to go at your bussines uncoerced. Approve of the right of a politician to initiate violence against peaceful fellow man and things will get very nasty in the end.

[Spalpeen]

It does not matter if you won some election. The principle of democracy is not different from gang rape.

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First post from this guy. TVF lunatic fringe just acquired a new member.

[pbeukelm]

Some post has to be the first and calling someone a fringe lunatic is strictly speaking not a philosophically coherent argument. You could point at inconsistencies are factual errors to do that. Since you apparently do not get past lunatic, I sense projection is occurring.

[Spalpeen]

Some post has to be the first and calling someone a fringe lunatic is strictly speaking not a philosophically coherent argument. You could point at inconsistencies are factual errors to do that. Since you apparently do not get past lunatic, I sense projection is occurring.

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Factual error - the principle of democracy is not the same as gang rape. What's your home country then, so we can check where you learned about democracy?

[esprit]

In Thailand's long history, it has never been occupied by a foreign power. It is a rather remarkable achievement in this region of the globe, borne of keen diplomacy and an accommodating stance. Internally, though, there has often been great conflict. On the whole, this article reaches some fairly safe conclusions. Although it mentions the cultural divides that are present, it does not make the mistake of focusing on them exclusively, which many prefer to do. The situation is much more complex than that. The class divisions undoubtedly play a role, but so do so many other things. The South has been crumbling for years in its own conflict - often much ignored and papered over by the rest of the country. But at the heart of the problem has always been the presence of corruption. In fact, the embracement of it on a day to day basis. Corruption is so absorbed and accepted as a practice that it has - by itself - eroded and impeded any administration of a credible centrist role that seeks to bind all parts of the country in a manner that is not tainted by either bribery or coercion. For that to change will require a sea change. Even at the seemingly fast pace of today's events, the road ahead will always be much slower, more cautious, and full of steps forward and steps back. However, that process has undoubtedly begun. And that is a process that brings hope.

Never occupied by a foreign power. What about the Kymers and more recently Burmese ? Do you mean colonised rather than occupied ?

[simon43]

That all this has been allowed to spiral speaks volumes of a failure of governance.

This.

Had Yingluck showed strength by cracking down hard on these mobs by enforcing the law, clearing the streets and allowing the silent majority to go about their lawful business, we would not be in the current position.

The Buddhist 'middle path' and weakness to face up and to resolve problems, the 'mai ben rai' attitude and wish not to cause others to 'lose face' is at the root of many of Thailand's problems.

Yingluck's government is too weak to rule, and the opposition is too crazy. Who has the strength, the charisma, the confidence and the will to govern this country, to make and implement unpopular but necessary decisions?

Simon

[pbeukelm]

I did not say it was the same, it is the same in principle. The majority decides and the minority has to comply.

Government:if you refuse to pay unjust taxes, your property will be confiscated. If you attempt to defend your property, you will be arrested. If you resist arrest, you will be clubbed. If you defend yourself against clubbing, you will be shot dead. These procedures are known as the Rule of Law.

--Edward Abbey

[wprime]

BANGKOK: -- Violent upheaval in Thailand is set to grow, getting a lot worse before (and if) things get any better.

It is exactly this kind of press claim that will help deteriorate things further. imo is irresponsible to be so pessimistic of a national newspaper, it helps not one bit even if it is true. It should have simply said

BANGKOK: -- Violent upheaval in Thailand could be set to grow.

As opposed to the everything is ok, keep investing in Thailand attitude of the foreign papers?

[Spalpeen]

I did not say it was the same, it is the same in principle. The majority decides and the minority has to comply.

Government:if you refuse to pay unjust taxes, your property will be confiscated. If you attempt to defend your property, you will be arrested. If you resist arrest, you will be clubbed. If you defend yourself against clubbing, you will be shot dead. These procedures are known as the Rule of Law.

--Edward Abbey

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I'm guessing that you're from somewhere that ends in "....stan". Am I right?

[pbeukelm]

You are wrong, like with so many things. And oblivious to it, like with so many other things. My birth location is irrelevant for the argument. It is as silly as saying:your physics theory is wrong since you are from Japan.

It reveals something about you: namely your ideas are indoctrinated through the propaganda of the place you were born. That is the main reason why people think other people's idea are caused by their place of birth.

[Spalpeen]

You are wrong, like with so many things. And oblivious to it, like with so many other things. My birth location is irrelevant for the argument. It is as silly as saying:your physics theory is wrong since you are from Japan.

It reveals something about you: namely your ideas are indoctrinated through the propaganda of the place you were born. That is the main reason why people think other people's idea are caused by their place of birth.

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From a 'stan, just as I thought. It may well be that in your home country interactions with representatives of the state often involve gang rape, but that's because it's not a democracy. Here in Thailand - which is a democracy - the government, just like any other democratically elected govt., is entitled to collect taxes. Wouldn't be much of a government if it didn't.

[Spalpeen]

Government=violence always and everywhere....... I have a right on your income......All power comes from the barrel of a gun. .........A law is someone's opinion with a gun.

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A few more choice quotes from our new friends first post on TVF.

[pbeukelm]

I am from he EUSSR we have elections every 4 years at least. On top of that provincial and town elections. Tax rate is about 80%. If you want to put an extension on your own house, you need to ask a govt crook permission, which she gives for 600 euro. Average gross monthly wage in my specific EU tax farm is 3000 euro/month. I'm above that as I have a master of science degree in electrotechnical engineering.

Sorry but you are too far from reality to have serious discussion with. Enjoy being ruled by your rulers.

[Lucie]

While the article alluded to a failure of governance, it did not consider the one problem that afflicts the entire country and society - and that is a failure of leadership overall. At every level, be it civil society, the bureaucracy, provincial and tambon administration, security agencies, even sporting groups - where are there any real leaders, those staunch, stoic, principled, decent folk who stand up for what is correct and proper, who lead by example? Thai society is divided, as the article correctly states, but it is not just social divisions as it claims, and as many people claim. It is a failure to produce good, decent men and women, people of honour and integrity and fortitude, to lead society. The failure of leadership.

Very true but the leaders Thailand needs so badly have to rise up out of the quagmire of corruption and poor education - perhaps too much to expect, unfortunately.

Indeed. There are such people, of course - Sulak Srivalak comes to mind. Prateep Ungsongtham. Supachai Panitchpakdi. Just not enough of them.

There are many - I watch Thai PBS and they regularly interview some great, intelligent people. But they don't WANT to run the country. They're smart enough to know what they're up against.

[Ulic]

This article may be considered fare and balanced but is pure vanilla and says nothing. There should be a

clear picture of Thaksin the criminal and not just reference to populist schemes, and Suthep should also

be called to account for his thieving transgressions. How either party gets any support from anyone is

beyond me.

[mojorison]

While the article alluded to a failure of governance, it did not consider the one problem that afflicts the entire country and society - and that is a failure of leadership overall. At every level, be it civil society, the bureaucracy, provincial and tambon administration, security agencies, even sporting groups - where are there any real leaders, those staunch, stoic, principled, decent folk who stand up for what is correct and proper, who lead by example? Thai society is divided, as the article correctly states, but it is not just social divisions as it claims, and as many people claim. It is a failure to produce good, decent men and women, people of honour and integrity and fortitude, to lead society. The failure of leadership.

Where are they? They are at home in their beds, contemplating what a bullet to the brain may feel like. But I agree with your post and like it. This is the reality, if you choose to fight the force of evil in Thailand, you generally end up un-living.

[MJP]

While the article alluded to a failure of governance, it did not consider the one problem that afflicts the entire country and society - and that is a failure of leadership overall. At every level, be it civil society, the bureaucracy, provincial and tambon administration, security agencies, even sporting groups - where are there any real leaders, those staunch, stoic, principled, decent folk who stand up for what is correct and proper, who lead by example? Thai society is divided, as the article correctly states, but it is not just social divisions as it claims, and as many people claim. It is a failure to produce good, decent men and women, people of honour and integrity and fortitude, to lead society. The failure of leadership.

Where are they? They are at home in their beds, contemplating what a bullet to the brain may feel like. But I agree with your post and like it. This is the reality, if you choose to fight the force of evil in Thailand, you generally end up un-living.

Yup. I know plenty of good, decent men and women, people of honour and integrity and fortitude. But the tragedy is the scum rises to the top more than most other places.

[Spalpeen]

Yup. I know plenty of good, decent men and women, people of honour and integrity and fortitude. But the tragedy is the scum rises to the top more than most other places.

.

The best and worst thing about democracy is that the people of a country get the government they deserve. So Sweden gets a government that's liberal and thrifty. Greece gets a government that borrows and spends until the country goes bust. Australians get a high tax, control freak government. For better or worse, Thailand has had the governments it deserves. They reflect the character of the people. If the Thais want a competent, corruption free, government then they have to change from the bottom up. There's no easy, lazy, quick fix by ousting an elected government and replacing it with dictatorship.

It's elections or anarchy.

[Credo]

Spalpeen, I've got to agree with you. I've been living in Thailand for roughly 20 years and was in a neighboring country and a frequent visitor before that. Thailand has always been an immensely corrupt country. There are very few, if any, institutions in the country that don't have a long history of corruption.

Getting rid of Thaksin will do nothing for this problem. The corruption exists because it has always been allowed to exist and there are people waiting in line for their turn at the trough of plenty.

From taxes, to education, to police, it's all about corruption.

Yesterday in Tesco, I watched a lady hand the person weighing her fruit 20 baht. The employee put the 20 baht in her picket, picked up a handful of fruit and put it in the bag after it had been weighed.

The other group are simply protesting for their own turn.

[MJP]

Yup. I know plenty of good, decent men and women, people of honour and integrity and fortitude. But the tragedy is the scum rises to the top more than most other places.

.

The best and worst thing about democracy is that the people of a country get the government they deserve. So Sweden gets a government that's liberal and thrifty. Greece gets a government that borrows and spends until the country goes bust. Australians get a high tax, control freak government. For better or worse, Thailand has had the governments it deserves. They reflect the character of the people. If the Thais want a competent, corruption free, government then they have to change from the bottom up. There's no easy, lazy, quick fix by ousting an elected government and replacing it with dictatorship.

It's elections or anarchy.

I know what you mean, but . . .

The two party system is a fraud in a lot of countries and the populous doesn't know how to escape it.

Judge Napolitano on the subject just before Fox News fired him . . .

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/02/the-5-minute-speech-which-got-judge-napolitano-fired-from-fox-news.html

My Swedish neighbour would very strongly disagree by the way. Sweden's so burdened with leftist handouts all over the place and losing so much industry, from what I understand it should be high up on the at risk list for default. It did go bust in the early 90's I think.

[cdnvic]

Posts containing news stories that bring the Monarchy into politics were removed.

[pbeukelm]

Sweden is a socialist hell hole. Corruption comes in 2 forms. Either the procedure is written down or it is not. If you sell alcohol without a government permit in Sweden they will shut you down by force. In Thailand you probably give some money to the police and they leave you alone. In both cases you pay your rulers money for a voluntary action between conscenting adults.

In one situation the procedure is written down, in the other it is not. There is no fundamental difference. The amount you pay is probably less in Thailand. Don't act surprised if those that want to use coercion to get their will imposed on others and want to harvest their productivity price corrupt. The government is maffia in uniform. You pay them protection money or suffer the consequences. Their fire protection or any other protection, is just extortion. Gvt just wears uniforms. It's a racket you are trained to ignore on their schools.

[Spalpeen]

Sweden is a socialist hell hole. Corruption comes in 2 forms. Either the procedure is written down or it is not. If you sell alcohol without a government permit in Sweden they will shut you down by force. In Thailand you probably give some money to the police and they leave you alone. In both cases you pay your rulers money for a voluntary action between conscenting adults.

In one situation the procedure is written down, in the other it is not. There is no fundamental difference. The amount you pay is probably less in Thailand. Don't act surprised if those that want to use coercion to get their will imposed on others and want to harvest their productivity price corrupt. The government is maffia in uniform. You pay them protection money or suffer the consequences. Their fire protection or any other protection, is just extortion. Gvt just wears uniforms. It's a racket you are trained to ignore on their schools.

.

This forum is about Thailand, not Sweden. We only mention other countries for comparison, not rant on about them.

I see Transparency International listed Sweden as the third least corrupt country on Earth in 2013. Thailand ranked 102. Since the current whinge-athon tends to go on about corrupion, I'd say the Thais could learn a few lessons from countries like Sweden.

[MJP]

Sweden is a socialist hell hole. Corruption comes in 2 forms. Either the procedure is written down or it is not. If you sell alcohol without a government permit in Sweden they will shut you down by force. In Thailand you probably give some money to the police and they leave you alone. In both cases you pay your rulers money for a voluntary action between conscenting adults.

In one situation the procedure is written down, in the other it is not. There is no fundamental difference. The amount you pay is probably less in Thailand. Don't act surprised if those that want to use coercion to get their will imposed on others and want to harvest their productivity price corrupt. The government is maffia in uniform. You pay them protection money or suffer the consequences. Their fire protection or any other protection, is just extortion. Gvt just wears uniforms. It's a racket you are trained to ignore on their schools.

.

This forum is about Thailand, not Sweden. We only mention other countries for comparison, not rant on about them.

I see Transparency International listed Sweden as the third least corrupt country on Earth in 2013. Thailand ranked 102. Since the current whinge-athon tends to go on about corrupion, I'd say the Thais could learn a few lessons from countries like Sweden.

Thailand is burdened with many problems and you are quite correct, the brown envelope, the 'Manila Man' as they're referred to where I come from is really at the heart of this.

EDIT: Manila refers to a brand of envelopes not the Philipines. Although that country is pretty bent by all accounts too.

Edited January 20, 2014 by MJP

[pbeukelm]

These lists say nothing. Like a Nobel price says nothing. Kissinger Obama,the EU. These lists differentiate between written down corruption and unwritten corruption.

[Globeman]

Still there is the chance of unifying the country. When the ptp loses it's voters due to the failed rice scheme there is room for another party to move in.

Whatever party that will be, it's leadership will have to treat all Thais equally and take them seriously. And not fall back into old elitarian behaviour as the people have experienced so often before.

Effectively fighting corruption will be the prime task for that new government.

The rural voters are not going to desert the PTP. They may be angry with them, and will join (or threaten to join) anti-government demonstrations and then go home as soon as they get their cash. They will not suddenly switch their votes to the Democrats, whom they detest (and the feeling is somewhat mutual, one suspects), nor will they vote for some smaller upstart party that can't do anything for them. They will stick with the only party that has ever given them anything (at least in direct cash form), for better or worse. What other option do they have?

[EricBerg]

Still there is the chance of unifying the country. When the ptp loses it's voters due to the failed rice scheme there is room for another party to move in.

Whatever party that will be, it's leadership will have to treat all Thais equally and take them seriously. And not fall back into old elitarian behaviour as the people have experienced so often before.

Effectively fighting corruption will be the prime task for that new government.

The rural voters are not going to desert the PTP. They may be angry with them, and will join (or threaten to join) anti-government demonstrations and then go home as soon as they get their cash. They will not suddenly switch their votes to the Democrats, whom they detest (and the feeling is somewhat mutual, one suspects), nor will they vote for some smaller upstart party that can't do anything for them. They will stick with the only party that has ever given them anything (at least in direct cash form), for better or worse. What other option do they have?

Yes, you may very well be right. Yet it will be the work for others to convince the people not to vote for the shinaclan. They must do that by proving to them it is best not to. I fear many of the farmers will be left with no land, no machines, no money to buy new seeds. So in the end they will be worse off than before the shina's started handing out heaps of taxmoney.

Reaching democracy in a better way than so far will take energy and time and commitment. The time of paternising is far gone. And something must change else the countries economy is doomed. Just imagine a 2.2 trillion loan. An incredible national debt. And that for a highspeed train to China? And on the side keep the rice scheme running for another few years? Thailand simply can not afford that.

[mojorison]

Spalpeen, I've got to agree with you. I've been living in Thailand for roughly 20 years and was in a neighboring country and a frequent visitor before that. Thailand has always been an immensely corrupt country. There are very few, if any, institutions in the country that don't have a long history of corruption.

Getting rid of Thaksin will do nothing for this problem. The corruption exists because it has always been allowed to exist and there are people waiting in line for their turn at the trough of plenty.

From taxes, to education, to police, it's all about corruption.

Yesterday in Tesco, I watched a lady hand the person weighing her fruit 20 baht. The employee put the 20 baht in her picket, picked up a handful of fruit and put it in the bag after it had been weighed.

The other group are simply protesting for their own turn.

Not only is it corrupt, it is also savagely dangerous. The prominence of guns is frightening, legal and illegal. As a long stay farang, I choose to live here because like it, I have no ambitions to change it, nor do I feel any responsibility to do so. But when I'm asked about it I will tell people Australia is a million times better than Thailand for one or 2 very specific reasons. Law and order is first, corruption and road safety/prostitution/drugs and a bevy of other reasons come in second, but it is the total void of law and order that allows corruption to flourish.Crime pays in Thailand, and the ability to cease living is a terrifyingly easy task to achieve... I've seen at least a dozen of my contemporaries bite the dust here... most before their due date. Slap the cops into order and everything else will flow down.

[rayfork]

More, more political upheaval!!! Great for the pound/baht exchange rate!!