Upgrading 1 Rai plot from Nor Sor 3 to Chanote ....

[SurinBeach]

Just wondered how much time/effort this is ie how many visits to Land Office and the land itself .....

And if I got a Thai Law firm to do how much should it cost me ?

BTW This land is in Phuket ....

Cheers

SB

[Showbags]

Trust no one.

Can only speak from our experience, not in Phuket.

Land visit I think from memory was 2, main one was when all the neighbours are asked to attend to make sure everyone happy with the boundary markings etc.

The time to deliver the chanote papers was quoted as 3 months, took 3 years but.

[cheeryble]

I know that even if lubrication is paid it can still take quite a while.

Not wanting to hijack the thread:

I also just happen to have a similar question….and it's regarding the older regular Nor Sor Sam.

There is the typical very simplistic map which is way inaccurate and very much smaller than the land which is marked not with concrete luk but poles which are clearly visible. These were placed by the nai na (introductory) chap….who is an old friend of Big Mamma so likely to be fair….has previously owned the land and now still takes crops from it and looks after it so I think we can trust his markers. He says first step is go to the pooyaybahn.

1. Are pooyaybahn's generally trustworthy not to grab a deal for themselves, or do i need a lawyer first?

2. It's on a river, and while the long strip of land is described as only 5 wah (10 metres?) wide, there is actually more like 25 metres or more between road and river.

Can I assume that the edge of the road is safe.....belongs to the tesabahn or something.....and same with the area near the bank of the river, which I presume comes under river authority so neither can be added to a title deed although the land will effectively add to with the main area?

3. In short……what to worry about?

4. Can one instigate the LO chanoot process at any time or have to "wait for them to come round" or "start lubricating"?

5. Assuming agreements with neighbouring owners, what else can be a problem?

thanks!

Edited January 21, 2014 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

To be more specific about one point:

How near an existing road will a newly issued chanoot fill to?

I guess the same question applies to the river, though less likely to have an answer to that one.....still may as well ask!

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[Showbags]

Depends on the road...is it a public goverment road now ?

'Are pooyaybahn's generally trustworthy' ..... ....they are as straight as a mountain road.

[cheeryble]

Hi Showbags

Yes it's a regular public road.

No utility poles yet.....one wonders if there's a provision in law allowing a border along a road for future poles and pylons.

Same goes for a river......sometimes they have to have publicly funded embankments built up the sides......and the water authority would want no legal issues so guess there's a guideline for the LO about leaving a gap (yes I know we can go ask but it would be depressing :-)) ....oh....PLUS I recall a friend who has river land says he's gained ten metres over the years. Presumably it can not only gain but decrease if you're on an outside bend......so in addition to a river embankment strip for the river authority the LO would have to add a potential decrease to that.

Maybe that's all why the title deed only has this land at officially 5wah (10m) wide.....makes sense.

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[Showbags]

If its a government road, there is an offset distance from the edge of the road, not sure that is though, but you cannot own right to the edge.

Same goes for rivers and waterways, there is a certain meterage from the low water level which is crown land....we had river front land, but cannot remember now the actual distance.

[keeniau96]

I live in Phuket and had the same situation. One rai on hillside overlooking Loch Palms Golf, bought as Nor Sor 3 and decided to upgrade to chanote. Simple title held by my wife, of course. She spent almost a year and many visits to the land office. No lawyer needed, and definitely just keep your fareng $$face totally out of it. Just persistence and always polite "Thai style", but your wife will know that. There was some golden grease suggested but turned out to be false trail by somebody in the land office making easy money and no work done. As written above, there is an official survey by land office (forgot how much but cheap). Then a visit by land office staff to talk with neighbors and have all the adjoining landowners sign off on the corner positions. All very friendly, Thai style, just provide some cool water & sodas. Persistence and politeness even when you are ready to explode. Your wife will say Jai yen and she is right. Get her a nice treat for hard job well done after all is over.

[cheeryble]

If its a government road, there is an offset distance from the edge of the road, not sure that is though, but you cannot own right to the edge.

Same goes for rivers and waterways, there is a certain meterage from the low water level which is crown land....we had river front land, but cannot remember now the actual distance.

As suspected Showbags.

(Perhaps you cannot own meterage a certain distance from HIGH water as this would be wider river?)

Did you feel your land title was X% smaller than the reality?

If so I'd love to know X as in this case it's a lot.

Of course the road side you need to stick to the title deed with say a wall, but the river side it's always going to be you own effectively down to the water.

Thx for the experience Keeniau, seems to fit with what I know about which may help OP

Edited January 22, 2014 by cheeryble

[Showbags]

If its a government road, there is an offset distance from the edge of the road, not sure that is though, but you cannot own right to the edge.

Same goes for rivers and waterways, there is a certain meterage from the low water level which is crown land....we had river front land, but cannot remember now the actual distance.

As suspected Showbags.

(Perhaps you cannot own meterage a certain distance from HIGH water as this would be wider river?)

Did you feel your land title was X% smaller than the reality?

If so I'd love to know X as in this case it's a lot.

Of course the road side you need to stick to the title deed with say a wall, but the river side it's always going to be you own effectively down to the water.

Thx for the experience Keeniau, seems to fit with what I know about which may help OP

No, did not feel bigger because it is what it is on the title...just because you have almost exclusive use of the extra bit of land, does not really make it look bigger all of a sudden.

By the way, remember that the general public has right to use and wander about on that crown land, so we had people walking up and down the river etc fishing and collecting shellfish etc.

Also remember...depending on size of the waterway....this is a tropical country with dry and wet seasons which means annual floods to varying degrees...so the extra land can be under water for some time, not something you can build something nice on as it has potential to be washed away...we did, and it did....so essentially you just enjoy the 95% of the time private quiet access.

It is always based on low water level as high level can vary so much with floods....something like 2 or 3 metres from memory.

[cheeryble]

No, did not feel bigger because it is what it is on the title...just because you have almost exclusive use of the extra bit of land, does not really make it look bigger all of a sudden.

By the way, remember that the general public has right to use and wander about on that crown land, so we had people walking up and down the river etc fishing and collecting shellfish etc.

Also remember...depending on size of the waterway....this is a tropical country with dry and wet seasons which means annual floods to varying degrees...so the extra land can be under water for some time, not something you can build something nice on as it has potential to be washed away...we did, and it did....so essentially you just enjoy the 95% of the time private quiet access.

It is always based on low water level as high level can vary so much with floods....something like 2 or 3 metres from memory.

Thanx for the thoughts Showbags

Interesting the riverside being public as it is usually well closed off to access on the places I see.

(Have to say I LIKE to see public ways in general)

In the case of this particular land it is not really walkable anyway.

….and yes now understand about low water

Edited January 22, 2014 by cheeryble

[SurinBeach]

Thanks Keeniau !

I live in Phuket and had the same situation. One rai on hillside overlooking Loch Palms Golf, bought as Nor Sor 3 and decided to upgrade to chanote. Simple title held by my wife, of course. She spent almost a year and many visits to the land office. No lawyer needed, and definitely just keep your fareng $$face totally out of it. Just persistence and always polite "Thai style", but your wife will know that. There was some golden grease suggested but turned out to be false trail by somebody in the land office making easy money and no work done. As written above, there is an official survey by land office (forgot how much but cheap). Then a visit by land office staff to talk with neighbors and have all the adjoining landowners sign off on the corner positions. All very friendly, Thai style, just provide some cool water & sodas. Persistence and politeness even when you are ready to explode. Your wife will say Jai yen and she is right. Get her a nice treat for hard job well done after all is over.

[EBlair48]

Can someone please explain to me the difference? Is a Nor Sor just as safe a title, just the boundaries are more official?

[cheeryble]

Can someone please explain to me the difference? Is a Nor Sor just as safe a title, just the boundaries are more official?

Yes more or less.....

Standard NS3 is a proper title but Crappy little map......so crappy it usually needs agreement.....and usually tells what's N S E and W.....or was.

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[SurinBeach]

Isn't there a BIG difference in squatters rights and also how accurately it was/is measured ......

Can someone please explain to me the difference? Is a Nor Sor just as safe a title, just the boundaries are more official?

Yes more or less.....

Standard NS3 is a proper title but Crappy little map......so crappy it usually needs agreement.....and usually tells what's N S E and W.....or was.




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[cheeryble]

Ready to be educated about squatter's rights......

(And yes the survey is very sketchy indeed)

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Edited February 1, 2014 by cheeryble

[SurinBeach]

OK ....

NOR SOR SAM GOR (NS-3K) - CONFIRMED CERTIFICATE OF USE

The Nor Sor Sam Gor, NS-3K or Confirmed Certificate of Use, is almost as good as a Chanote deed. A black garuda appears on a Confirmed Certificate of Use. A Confirmed Certificate of Use shows that the Land Department has confirmed and certified the owner’s right to the land. Land parcels represented by these certificates have been unofficially surveyed, but not been officially surveyed, by the Land Department. The unofficial survey has been correlated with master surveys and sattelite photographs. Owners may petition the Land Department to officially survey the land and upgrade the title to a Chanote deed.

Confirmed Certificates of Use are kept at the District Land Department. The Certificate includes the total area of the parcel, the location information, survey information, and a sketch of the property. The certificates are numbered and dated. Full ownership and rental records are attached.

Landowners who own land titled with a Confirmed Certificate of Use only have one year to remove squatters before the squatters gain ownership through hostile possession.

CHANOTE (NS-4) - TITLE DEED

The Chanote deed, or NS-4, shows full ownership rights to a piece of land. Chanote deeds are the most dependable title in the Thai titling system. A red garuda, or khrut, appears on a Chanote deed.

The Chanote deed lists the position of the land, total area, the title number, and the survey information. A sketch of the property on the title shows the land parcel’s relation to neighboring parcels. The original copies of Chanote deeds are kept at the Provincial Land Department.

All land parcels represented by Chanote deeds have been fully surveyed by the Land Department. Concrete or metal survey markers are used to mark the corners of the real property. The Land Department correlates the survey of the parcel to the national survey grid and satellite photographs.

Under Thai law, squatters who live on another person’s land without permission can eventually claim ownership of the parcel if the land’s rightful owner of does not evict them. A Chanote title deed gives land owners 10 years evictsquatters from their land before they lose their ownership.

[SurinBeach]

ie ONE year vs TEN years ....

I know this cos I go concerned when neighbouring land dwellers started planting a few pappaya etc on one of my ten little plots which were connected .....

I thought ahhhhh thats nice, good for them cos I wasnt' using the land ....

Then someone mentioned the squatter/land use issue .....

Ready to be educated about squatter's rights......
(And yes the survey is very sketchy indeed)

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[Showbags]

Yes, squatters rights here are quite unbelievable really.

We give a signed lease to the people that care for our land and farm it.

There is also something in the squatters rights that if the land owner visits his land regularly and can prove it, then no squatter can claim in no matter how long.

I know of a couple of blocks in the region that look like they have been taken over...influential people, or maybe not, spend some money on putting a little shack on this land and a caretaker they pay and put in a half hearted attempt to farm it every year, crops have failed each year on these blocks, but they do not care....one with paw paw the other with cassava

Edited February 1, 2014 by Showbags

[EBlair48]

Thanks very much for that explanation. Would you happen to have a link for it?

[sNIPPET]

OK ....

NOR SOR SAM GOR (NS-3K) - CONFIRMED CERTIFICATE OF USE.....

[SurinBeach]

Not sure TV allows me a link does it..... but a simple Google of the text finds.....it first item ...

Thanks very much for that explanation. Would you happen to have a link for it?

[sNIPPET]

OK ....

NOR SOR SAM GOR (NS-3K) - CONFIRMED CERTIFICATE OF USE.....

[SDM0712]

Can someone please explain to me the difference? Is a Nor Sor just as safe a title, just the boundaries are more official?

The difference between a NS3G and Chanote is purely that the NS3G is plotted using Mapping co ordinates and a Chanote is based upon GPS co ordinates. In terms of what you can do with the land there is no difference. People do upgrade NS3Gs to full Chanotes, it can be done. Personally I see no point in upgrading a NS3G to Chanote, unless you are concerned about or are expecting a boundary dispute.

I am also in Phuket, as an agent, and I never go near the Land Department !! Better to send Thai staff !!

SDM

[Showbags]

Can someone please explain to me the difference? Is a Nor Sor just as safe a title, just the boundaries are more official?

The difference between a NS3G and Chanote is purely that the NS3G is plotted using Mapping co ordinates and a Chanote is based upon GPS co ordinates. In terms of what you can do with the land there is no difference. People do upgrade NS3Gs to full Chanotes, it can be done. Personally I see no point in upgrading a NS3G to Chanote, unless you are concerned about or are expecting a boundary dispute.

I am also in Phuket, as an agent, and I never go near the Land Department !! Better to send Thai staff !!

SDM

Upgrade because it defines the boundary more precisely...good if you wish to build an expensive fence.

We upgraded ns3 to chanote couple years ago and we lost a little bit of land with the gps boundary verification....no biggy though.

Also chanote is a more saleable item...everyones first question is does it have chanote.

But, I am happy to purchase ns titles again, no problem with them usually. But you do have to put up a sign stating you are selling or whatever with ns titles to make everyone aware that might have an interest in it or any dispute...whereas you do not with chanote.

[SurinBeach]

I am also in Phuket, as an agent, and I never go near the Land Department !! Better to send Thai staff !!

Last time I went 4-5 years ago I stayed in the car park....

nervously !

Can someone please explain to me the difference? Is a Nor Sor just as safe a title, just the boundaries are more official?

The difference between a NS3G and Chanote is purely that the NS3G is plotted using Mapping co ordinates and a Chanote is based upon GPS co ordinates. In terms of what you can do with the land there is no difference. People do upgrade NS3Gs to full Chanotes, it can be done. Personally I see no point in upgrading a NS3G to Chanote, unless you are concerned about or are expecting a boundary dispute.

I am also in Phuket, as an agent, and I never go near the Land Department !! Better to send Thai staff !!

SDM

[SDM0712]

Actually I'm off there today, into the shadow of darkness!