Hill-tribes's Life Conditions

[Ajarn]

Anyone is welcome to come to Thailand for a holiday and to meet the people of this land. But bloody leave your <deleted> at home. Dont come here and try to convert people. Dont even talk about it. No-one needs to hear the crap that will come out of your mouth. You will only be trying to satisfy your own needs. Go see a psychologist first.

Amy, I think it's good that you see that message, too. Some here have very strong feelings on this topic, and aren't shy about expressing it. It's doubtfull you'll get that kind of reaction from Thais, though....They are generally more polite.

[chanchao]

> Some here have very strong feelings on this topic, and aren't shy

> about expressing it. It's doubtfull you'll get that kind of reaction from

> Thais, though....They are generally more polite.

Yes.. strange really isn't it.. And NedKelly was even pretty restrained in his comments.

Imagine though the response in your home country if a bunch of Ayatollah's would go preach on people, trying to convert them to their religion.. Thais are a very tolerant bunch, indeed. Or a case of 'water off a ducks back'?

Cheers,

Chanchao

[Ajarn]

Imagine though the response in your home country if a bunch of Ayatollah's would go preach on people, trying to convert them to their religion..    Thais are a very tolerant bunch, indeed.   Or a case of 'water off a ducks back'?

Yes, I agree. As was pointed out earlier Thais (or Thai Buddhists) show much more tolerance of other religions than many other religions show towards Buddhism. One of the great strenghths of Buddhism, in my view.

I hope that Amy will practice the open mind that she preaches when she visits....I sense that there will be some among her group of 20 with less than open minds....

[chanchao]

I think I'm gong to partially disagree with myself. It's not just that Thais are more tolerant of other religions than some foreigners on this site, they even PREFER people to have strong religious feelings over people who claim they don't have a religion at all.

Everything's cool when you say you're Christian or Catholic or any other flavour of Christianity, or being Jewish, Buddhist, anything. But you may actually cause some distress by claiming you 'don't have a religion'. I think the explanation is that Thais view religion as a set of precepts, a moral code about what's good and bad, governing people's actions. Buddhists stick to 8 precepts, which are overall pretty basic such as don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, don't get hammered on yaa dong at 2am, and don't fondle the bar maid afterwards, and so on. When you're Christian or Jewish or Muslim you stick to 10 commandmends that command pretty much the exact same things. Very reassuring. However when you tell a Thai that you DON'T have a religion, then the potential assumption is that you are NOT bound by any moral precepts! Meaning you would see no problem in stealing, lying or killing! It's not quite as black and white of course, but rest assured that Thais will view an openly religious person (whatever the religion) more favorably than a rabid atheist.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[Ajarn]

Interesting points, chanchao. They make sense from a common sense way of looking at things. As you said, it's probably not so black and white, but I'll bet plenty of Thais feel that way, even if they can't communicate it as clearly...The feeling is still there that something ain't quite kosher

[Guest IT Manager]

I think it would be interesting to see Amy at Mango one night, when Zen is in full flight, for want of a better expression.

If you and yours can shut up about your beliefs outside of telling people you are christian fine. If that happens it would be a first.

At the beginning we were not talking about Thais, we were discussing Akha, who are one of the prime targets of little convert-a-heathen weekends, such as you are proposing. Akha have already been emasculated by the Government and the D*E*A. Just leave them the fukc alone. They don't need it.

[francois]

hi'

hi'

I just forgot to say something about Buddhism that seems to me

to be an important point.

(I hope I won't hurt anyone's feeling or/and faith ..)

Buddhism is not a religion.It's a philosophy, a way of thinking,

acting, a way of life. no belief in any creator or some kind

of paradise, just a main teaching and facts that can help a whole lot of people.

it has been practised as a religion with a main-stream belief,

in many different countries and many different ways and rituals.

Japanese Zen, Tibetan Mahayana, Thai Theravada ...

no religion, a main philosophy in common.

on the other hand we have religions, like Christians with so

many branches and cults that it begins difficult to know who

is who and what are they professing .. a bit far from the

original teaching.

as well for Muslims, so many different way to read the Coran

and to interprete it ...

and then some extremists in both sides, violent in the past

for Christianity (crusades), and nowadays, Islamists ...

what to think in all this ?

I do believe that far from restrictions, we should take a

look at all kind of spirituality, regardless of the origin,

some good things can add some nice way to think to an

Atheist, as well as christian, as well as muslim, but on this

side, I won't go far, I do not want to start a blablabla

about it ...

the fact is that Buddhism do not make any proselitism, just

because they don't have to, if you apporach Buddhism, it

would be on your own will, nobody would say to you to do it.

besides, in Thai families, Buddhism is revered like a

religion.

but we could start a new topic on this matter.

Amy you come with love in your heart and want to share it here,

I guess that you'll be welcome many places.

Wise words.. You should know though that they could be said by a Thai Buddhist monk pretty much word for word. Religions the world over are more similar than some people think. We really have more in common than separates us.

so very right, I do agree more than 100%

francois

[francois]

At the beginning we were not talking about Thais, we were discussing Akha, who are one of the prime targets of little convert-a-heathen weekends, such as you are proposing. Akha have already been emasculated by the Government and the D*E*A. Just leave them the fukc alone. They don't need it.

some way right ...

this topic is all about the hard-life Akha people have because of "too may things to say about .. SH##"

the fact that Amy came in to give a testimony is not out of topic but should not lead us outside of our main concern wich is Akha people and all other Tribes that we might know.

I hope that most of us agree on this.

am I right?

am I wrong?

francois

[allnew]

I must say that I did not up and give a testomony. Someone asked the questioned of how I was brought into my belief and so I answered. If you see wrong in doing so, I'm quite sorry but not sorry for answering the question.

Another thing, I should leave them (insert needless crudeness) alone? How about this. My trip over to Thailand and talking with people is just the same as me traveling across the street and talking to my mormon neighbors, is it not? What you're saying is I should not "bother" people who in your mind do not need my help. I'm not even saying I'll help them. I don't feel as though my talking with people is so harmful. It that were true, I guess there would be enough reasons to not talk about government setups, ways to drive down the road, ways to dress, and ways to live life. We all have different opinions regardless of nationality, sex, or race. What you are pretty much saying is to ignore any topic that could potentially cause conflict or cause someone to think about things in a different manner.

And even then, thinking differently is not bad either. Isn't the only way to learn through listening, observing, and reflecting on the every day events? Just because I talk with people does not mean I automatically expect them to think the way I do or believe the things I believe. If I said that, then I might as well call myself God, which I'm not.

Yes, I do have an open mind and no I do not believe everyone I meet will be as willing to like me as I do them. I'm not saying that is wrong, instead just human nature. I actually expect to have rough times when my beliefs will be challenged. And in my own mind, that will make me stronger and more knowledgeable about the world that I did not know before my trip.

I must be completely naive or hopelessly guarded if I think that if you give others respect, they will respect you back. I do understand that will not always be the case, ok...so be it.

And this trip is not just for myself. I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. Yes, I do look forward to the lessons I will learn and the people I will me, good and bad. But just like I have an open mind, I am guessing that there will be people I meet who will also have open minds. Who just might think along the lines that I do when it comes to respect and reflecting on thoughts. Just maybe they will learn something from me. And it doesn't even have to be about my God or my beliefs. Yes, I do have the intention of sharing that part of my life, but I'm sure that there are other topics in which I will have the opportunity to partake in. What is so wrong with that?

And to the person who explained Buddism as not really a religion but a way of living, thank you. That is something tha I had not yet thought of. Which just goes to show you that I still am a far cry from knowing anything close to the amount of knowledge I need.

And about professing to not have a religion. Just because I say I don't like organized religion does not mean that I believe stealing, etc is ok. Because as you said, Christianity, etc follows the 10 commandments. Those commandments are found in the bible and as I stated before, I believe what the bible says and what God tells me. Organized religion, or any type of religion, (in my mind) is just taking a certain part of the bible or whatever book, ideas, etc and focusing on that section. Mormons teach more about the ressurections, Catholics teach the importance of Mary, and so on. My problem with organized religion is that they set a standard of rules to which not one person in the religion follow all the time. Therefore, if we believe in what God tells us and the words he has allowed to be written, then we all believe in the same thing. Does that make sense?

I don't know if I am coming off the same way that I want to in my mind. I do appreciate everything everyone is saying, even if they are things I don't want to listen to. Because it makes me think about things I did not previously. So thank you.

Amy

[Ajarn]

Amy, I'm really impressed with the maturity in your words. Your desire to remain openminded and balanced in your thinking is a lesson maybe some of us here should pay some attention to....

Thankfully, Thailand still has freedom of religion, and freedom of speech (well, mostly...). In my opinion, if an Akha wants to be a christian, fine. That's a personal choice. But I feel it should be from their own lead, rather than coming from outside pressure to become a christian, buddhist, muslim, or whatever. I'm not a believer in censoring education, but education must be delivered cleanly and accurately, without pressure, and without hidden agendas on the teacher's part...

My own personal Truth is 'Tham Dee, Dai Dee. Tham Chua, Dai Chua (Do good, get good. Do bad, get bad) I've seen the truth in that all my life, especially the do bad, get bad part.

Have a great trip. I hope you'll report back on your adventures....

[chanchao]

> And to the person who explained Buddism as not really a religion but a

> way of living, thank you. That is something tha I had not yet thought of.

I'm not completely comfortable with that statement though. Especially because this view is mostly embraced by hardcore Christians who like this idea because it suggest that there is a vacant territory there, waiting to be filled by a 'real' religion, and then specifically Christianity of course.

I know francois didn't mean it that way, but I do note that missionaries are VERY happy with this view. And I also note that Thais most likely would feel offended if you tried to tell them they don't have a real religion.

Anyway, this is not really the issue of course, the statement could still be true to a degree. I suppose it depends on your definition of religion. Some of those are merely that there MUST be some kind of deity, and there MUST be some sort of explanation about where the world came from and what the purpose is of it all. Personally I'm not at all sure this is required for something to be called a religion.

Also note that there is no shortage of deities in Thailand.. They may not even be part of Buddhism, but they're still part of the Thai 'religion'. All the things you see about spirits, ancestors (late famous monks and past Kings especially), spirit houses, sacred stuff & animals, cotton cloth tied around houses, naang kwak statues to bring in customers, the silly golden Chinese 'hello' cat, etc etc are not at all part of strict Buddhism, but they're very much part of life in Thailand.

Perhaps this is why other religions blend in so well. If thais can and do show respect to a bunch of Chinese saints, or a Brahma image, then they definitley can and do this also for an image of Jesus or Mary. Say if you wear a cross/Jesus figure around your neck, you can be 100% sure a Thai will treat it with the same respect as he would a Buddhist or spirit amulet.

Note that it's tempting for some to lump all of the animal & object worship together into some kind of claim that Thais are as much animist as they are Buddhist. But then again Catholics also do a lot of praying to saints & idols, so it's not necessarily that different. Also there's a tendency among Westerners to dismiss everything that's preceived as animism as 'irrelevant superstition' and 'hocus-pocus pseudo religion.' That would be a mistake in my mind. Perhaps even the word 'animism' is best avoided as it often just acts as a term to lump every particular belief together that's not one of the main world religions.

I think I'll leave it at that for now.. For sure lots more can be said about this topic..

Cheers,

Chanchao

[Ajarn]

Say if you wear a cross/Jesus figure around your neck, you can be 100% sure a Thai will treat it with the same respect as he would a Buddhist or spirit amulet.

Well, I feel that's a bit of a stretch....

[chanchao]

Separate note: Before anyone criticizes Amy for coming here and/or tell her what she can and cannot do or say while here, think if your own reasons for coming to Thailand are very self-less. Accept that people come to Thailand for different reasons, and between the various camps there is quite a lot of criticizing the others. Like a person may be very outspoken against missionaries coming to Thailand to convert people, but then they themselves may be mostly there for the nightlife and for going with girls of negotiable virtue.. Then the backpackers can be negative of package group tourers who are 'ruining Thailand' for the real travelers. The retirees being here mostly because their retirement money stretches 3 times as far, are in turn negative of the 'dirty' penny pinching backpackers.. NGO workers, teaching hilltribes to go live in sustainable eco mud-hives.. And then finally of course there are the general expats who are just critical of absolutely everyone and everything, including Thais themselves.

So, to stick with the biblical theme: he who is without sin, cast the first stone. :

Cheers,

Chanchao

[chanchao]

Say if you wear a cross/Jesus figure around your neck, you can be 100% sure a Thai will treat it with the same respect as he would a Buddhist or spirit amulet.

Well, I feel that's a bit of a stretch....

Try it then. Wear a jesus figure around your neck, and when you're near a Thai friend, take it off and throw it on the floor. Now watch his/her face.

Or take it off and give it to him/her to place somewhere. Willing to bet a purple note on it ending up somewhere high and not among 'lesser' stuff. Some Thais may feel the urge to wai it even after placing it somewhere, but will probably settle for just taking a step back while facing the thing, not turn their back on it.

Or take a Thai to a church. Any church, though Catholic ones are better because there's more stuff to look at. Observe. Now go to Wat Phra Sing or any other touristed temple and watch the behavior of a random Western tourist. Who won?

Seriously, note that many amulets that are commonly worn by Thais are NOT Buddhas. They could wear all kinds of sacred items that bring good fortune or protection. TIP: Go to Thippanet Market, near the old Thippanet Cinema on Thippanet Road. (Hmm.. I schmell a pattern here..) Anyway, there you will find a mind boggling aray of amulets and assorted voodoo stuff. Really, the place is worth a visit. Now if a Thai sees you wear something religious around your neck, the assumption will be that this is something sacred, and a Thai will absolutely treat it as such.

(I mean, seriously, if he/she can show respect for a plastic figurine in baggy silk trousers and oversized bracelets around her arm bringing good fortune, then it would be all in days work to take no chances with a Jesus amulet. Christianity brought the world such successful institutes and icons such as the NY Stock Exchange, Mercedes Benz, Boeing, Manchester United, Jonas Andersson... So better safe than sorry and showing J.C. some respect can't hurt cannit..? )

(Then again, perhaps you took my quote to mean that Thais feel exactly the same about Jesus as they do about Buddha.. that would definitely be a stretch yes..)

Cheers,

Chanchao

Edited March 27, 2004 by chanchao

[Ajarn]

(Then again, perhaps you took my quote to mean that Thais feel exactly the same about Jesus as they do about Buddha.. that would definitely be a stretch yes..)

I only went by your words, trying not to read between any lines. I hate it when people try to read too much between my lines. That's why I try to make my words clear

Go into any Thai commercial jewlry store, or look at what many Thai girls wear in their ears...Crosses, not Buddha amulets, will be found in these places. Thais simply don't treat these images the same, as you said they do. Someone will likely respect something you wear because you value it yourself, but crosses are just fashion items for most (Unless you are a Thai christian, of course), like the swaztikas kids also wear now. Many might have no clue as to a further meaning, or historical background.... Taking any jewelry off and throwing it to the ground will likely surprise anyone...

I find many Thais to be sensitive to things I value, as I try to do with things they value...To me, that's just simple respect in a basic form

Anyway, it wasn't a flame. I just sorta sensed you got caught up with the emotion you were obviously feeling when you wrote the message above that statement:)

[chanchao]

> Anyway, it wasn't a flame. I just sorta sensed you got caught up with the

> emotion you were obviously feeling when you wrote the message above that

> statement:)

Oh, no not at all! But my post had some degree of redicule and joking to it that I meant in a general sense but could also easily be taken as rediculing your post which was of course not the intention. And I was worried I misread the meaning of your comment and then went on some joking spree ridiculing it. That was not the intention of course, so I added this line to show how I read the meaning of your comments. Written communication is just not the same as face to face, especially when I attempt some humour with someone I don't know personally. Now it turns out that extra line was actually the one that made it seem like I was worked up or anything.. (Also note I edited that post like 10 times the past 10 minutes... Next time I'll try editing it in Notepad first and then upload it when I'm happy with it..

> look at what many Thai girls wear in their ears...Crosses, not Buddha amulets,

> will be found in these places. Thais simply don't treat these images the same,

Ah, yes, of course! In that case it is indeed a fashion statement. Pretty much like the way a Buddha can end up as a lamp post or even a garden gnome in someone's garden in the West. However when they see you or me wear an object of obvious religious significance, no matter what it is, they will show it proper respect.

Actually this is exactly what you already noted:

> I find many Thais to be sensitive to things I value, as I try

> to do with things they value...

Yup. Note that this is also pretty much what I tried to say a couple of posts back in the original quote:

>> Say if you wear a cross/Jesus figure around your neck, you can be

>> 100% sure a Thai will treat it with the same respect as he would a

>> Buddhist or spirit amulet.

Phew..

> but crosses are just fashion items, like the swaztikas kids also

> wear now. Many might have no clue as to a further meaning,

> or historical background....

Yes.. though now that you mention this, this deserves some further explanation. You probably already know this, but just in case people are reading this or falling off their chairs when they see a swastika, keep in mind that the swastika was a symbol for good fortune LONG before the nazi's abused it. Just because it was a major, MAJOR and very evil thing in Europe may not mean that the rest of the world has to abandon it. Anyway there's more sides to this issue, because a swastika WILL offend a tourist. But the lack of historical background may not be exclusively on the part of the Thai, but rather the tourist... (Or both of course).

(Actually the most common Thai greeting 'sawasdee' is derived from the same Sanskrit word 'svasti' that gave us 'swastika'. Sawasdee is a combination of 'Sawat', meaning fortune, merit (have to look it up again..) and 'dee' of course 'good'. So the Thai greeting just is a wish for well-being, good luck, etc.)

Check this out for example: http://swastika-bungalows.com Not in Thailand, but same thing kinda sorta.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[Edited several times again... )

Edited March 27, 2004 by chanchao

[Ajarn]

(Actually the most common Thai greeting 'sawasdee' is derived from the same Sanskrit word that gave us 'swastika'.

Yes, I knew it was from something old in India, and was positive, but I never really thought about its other connections...Thanks for pointing that out

And, I know how easy it is to be misunderstood, or misunderstand others when using text...The little smilies sometimes help, but it sure doesn't replace the human face or voice...I'm misunderstood often, it seems

Hope to see your face someday!

[Guest IT Manager]

Anyone is welcome to come to Thailand for a holiday and to meet the people of this land. But bloody leave your <deleted> at home. Dont come here and try to convert people. Dont even talk about it. No-one needs to hear the crap that will come out of your mouth. You will only be trying to satisfy your own needs. Go see a psychologist first.

Thanks Ned, good to see you keeping yourself under control for the young lady.

[Bluecat]

Anyone is welcome to come to Thailand for a holiday and to meet the people of this land. But bloody leave your <deleted> at home. Dont come here and try to convert people. Dont even talk about it. No-one needs to hear the crap that will come out of your mouth. You will only be trying to satisfy your own needs. Go see a psychologist first.

Thanks Ned, good to see you keeping yourself under control for the young lady.

We do not convert anybody in Thailand, we are converted,...

[The Quill]

Another thing, I should leave them (insert needless crudeness) alone? How about this. My trip over to Thailand and talking with people is just the same as me traveling across the street and talking to my mormon neighbors, is it not? What you're saying is I should not "bother" people who in your mind do not need my help. I'm not even saying I'll help them. I don't feel as though my talking with people is so harmful.

Well you seem to have got up IT's nose quite a bit. I am going to be a bit weird since it's Saturday.

When IT said leave "The Hilltribes" (needless crudity) alone, thats who he was referring to. Not Thais. I personally would be amazed to see a conversion of a Thai, without some form of monetary inducement.

I will try to get this thread back onto "how the Akha live". Leave the Akha (and the rest of the hill tribes people), alone. Don't speak to them, don't address them, don't give the flower kids money. (Buy them a meal is OK, but just shut up after you do it).

You are filled with the love and grace of your god. Good. They have their own faith, developed over millenia, then completely fried by the catholics and the presbyterians, (since we are in Chiang Mai), and they don't-need-you.

At the moment, Akha kids have no papers to identify them. Write to your congressman or whatever, and ask him to address the issue of Human Rights with the Thai Government. Akha kids normally don't get an education, see above for something to help. Akha kids have no access to medical care. See above again. Akha adults cannot legally work. See above.

This is applicable to others as well, just that it's a bone of contention for me.

Don't come here blathering about god, without a copy of the letters you have written to your political representatives, who make this country a wonderful partner in defending Iraqi rights, while allowing the same folks get away with killing the INDIGENOUS minorities.

I would be more than happy to see you in the Mango, as has been suggested, and tell you why you should be in USA, not Thailand, and debate you on the relative merits of xtianity over Buddhism and the need or otherwise, that Akha and other hill tribes have for another missionary, getting their rocks off trying to solve the worlds problems, in Thailand in 2 weeks.

Go home, raise money and then send it to someone who sets up educational programs for Akha and other Hilltribes, without the effluent of religious instruction as an attachment. Then, and only then, will I give you my vote. Personal bravery aside, thank you for your testimony, enjoy your stay here, but, like I said, leave the normal xtian target group alone.

[Ajarn]

At the moment, Akha kids have no papers to identify them.  Akha kids normally don't get an education. Akha kids have no access to medical care.

Not to discount the problems, but this statement above is not true for all Akha, as suggested...

'Some', 'many', maybe even 'most'.....But not 'All', by any means...

Education in Thailand is not just limited to Thais or others with citizenship papers, but official recognition of their studies in govt. schools, ie, prathom/mathayon certificates, is limited to only those with citizenship papers. Actually the Thai government has made many improvements to allow kids, especially hilltribe kids, better access (mostly) to education...But there still are many many who lack transportation to school, or must leave school early in order to work....

Basic medical care is available to everyone, as I understand things, but access is a problem still for many. I'll admit I'm less 'up' on the medical issue than the education issue....

There are many Akha with Thai citizenship papers, and their children will also have papers, assuming their births were registered properly.

But, there are certainly large numbers of Akha without papers, many of them were born here, too. The citizenship issues in Mae Ai, are just one example of many people born in Thailand either not receiving their deserved citizenship, or having their citizenship unfairly revoked by local officials. Keeping these issues alive and in the public view, offer the best chance of help, in my view......Even the some of the more extreme statements made, like on Mathew's car, help to keep the issues in the forefront, reminding and educating people that these issues are still around....

[Guest IT Manager]

True Ajarn. Very accurate. 54,000 don't.

[chanchao]

Agree with Ajarn too. While many hillribe people don't have citizenship, the problem is often more lack of (viable access to) education, not having a 'culture' to value education, general lack of opportunity, and not quite having the able & willingness to stand up for themselves, along with local bureaucracy and corruption in places. These are causes more than that it really is impossible for them to get the Thai nationality under Thai law.

It's not all the Thai governments fault either.. I am involved in a project to get Mathayom level education going for hilltribe kids, and the results are by and large rather dissappointing. A lot of this is due to not having the culture there to really force kids to get an education. Even promising, smart kids suddenly thought it a better idea to get married and have kids when they're 14 years old.. Now this might happen in the West as well, but for any self-respecting parent in the west there'd be ###### to pay if their kids wanted to quit school and run off with a boy or girlfriend.. For many hilltribes however, 14 is a perfectly fine age to marry apparently.. Having kids and getting an education don't mix all that well.

By the way.. everyone is coming down hard on missionaries for committing cultural genocide, the Thai government schools also do this to some degree.. they use Thai teachers and teach kids Thai language, religion, about the monarchy, sing the national anthem, and so on. To a degree this is of course needed to function in Thai society, however I don't get a feeling there is a lot of teaching of local Akha (or other hilltribe) history, culture and language going on..

Then, while most hilltribe people in Thailand are born in Thailand, to capitalize the word 'INDEGENOUS' kind of makes it sound like they've been here before the Thais and were subsequently pushed into a fringe position, in the same sense as native Americans and Australian Aboriginese were there before Western 'invaders'. That's not the case. (Not that it should matter of course, IMHO hilltribes who's families always lived in Thailand are entitled to a regular white Thai ID card.)

Cheers,

Chanchao

Edited March 28, 2004 by chanchao

[Ajarn]

A lot of the Hill Tribes problems stem from the Thai extreme xenophobia. Their total unwillingness to offer enfranchisement to any they consider different

Yes, a very important point...I also sometimes hear Khon Thai commenting that the government should be taking care of poor Thais before helping hilltribes; My housekeeper, from Chiang Dao, also feels the government gives more aid to the hilltribes than to the local Thais in Chiang Dao....

[chanchao]

A lot of the Hill Tribes problems stem from the Thai extreme xenophobia. Their total unwillingness to offer enfranchisement to any they consider different

Erm.. so why can hilltribe people just go to the amphur and apply for Thai nationality then? When they have that they can work legally anywhere, own land, run a business, etc.

There are definitely issues that need improvement, but 'extreme xenofobia' is a bit much? Prejudiced sure.. but there's nothing wrong with the Thai laws/constitution in this respect. Also note that Westerners don't exactly have a very perfect record in dealing with indigenous people of the countries they invaded/colonized or completely took over.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[chanchao]

I also sometimes hear Khon Thai commenting that the government should be taking care of poor Thais before helping hilltribes; My housekeeper, from Chiang Dao, also feels the government gives more aid to the hilltribes than to the local Thais in Chiang Dao....

Which I think is a valid sentiment. On the project that I'm involved in, we sponsored scholarships for hilltribe kids. These kids were going to the exact same school as the Thai (Muang) kids from a neaby village. (No Xenofobia there..) This Thai village has some families that are at least as poor as the hilltribe villagers.

Now am I going to use the money specifically for Lahu kids just because they're Lahu, but not the Thai kids who can't afford Mathayom level schooling just the same.. I can easily see why this would upset some people. In the end we also sponsored some Thai kids who were bright enough to continue studying, but who's parents couldn't afford it. I think it's better that way.

Anyway, I think this shows that where Thai people feel jealous of preferential treatment of hilltribes by the government, at the very least it shows that the government IS doing things for the advancement of hilltribe people. In the particular village where I go a lot, in a matter of 10 years the place completely changed. They got electricity, telephone, and just last years a proper concrete road. Makes a huge difference. You can't just say that hilltribes are always intentionally marginalized by the government.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[allnew]

I was out-of-town for the last couple of days and recently returned which is why I haven't responded yet, sorry.

After catching up on the posts, I must first say that there is a lot to Thailand that I did not know. WHICH would be the reason why I appreciate traveling. To give us WESTERNERS some type of information about the world beyond our country. Sad as it is to say, the media and government don't exactly feed us information about such things. So, (this isn't something you want to hear, I'm sure) the majority of the time that an opportunity comes along that you hear stories and might help...wait a minute...I see religion coming into the picture...that source if from religious people. Or people with some type of belief in a higher power.

Am I not making any sense at all? I'm sorry if I sound offended or come off too rash, but (and I'll add, this is mostly in reply to The Quill post) I was COMPLETELY offended by your post. <I just finished writing this post and realize that is VERY wordy and maybe, I'm afraid will upset people. I just cannot sit back and be offended in such a way. I'm sorry to those whom I do not know I am offending.>

Here's what I'm going to *try* to say, in a nicer way than my mind is saying.

>I will try to get this thread back onto "how the Akha live". Leave the Akha (and

>the rest of the hill tribes people), alone. Don't speak to them, don't address

>them, don't give the flower kids money. (Buy them a meal is OK, but just shut

>up after you do it).

So you're saying, because I'm "Christian" I'm allowed to give my money (which is not the problem in my mind) to buy food for someone who needs it and then walk away? If I were someone who proclaimed to not believe in any God, you would see no harm in my staying around and chatting a bit? You're saying, that if <I> were the same that I was now, without my Christian beliefs, that it would be ok for my to chat, even though I would be the SAME person. Excuse me if I don't see the logic in that.

>You are filled with the love and grace of your god. Good. They have their own

>faith, developed over millenia, then completely fried by the catholics and the

>presbyterians, (since we are in Chiang Mai), and they don't-need-you.

This just furthers my previous statement. I mean, it would be better, I suppose if I only learned or listened about the horrible stories and then preceded to walk away because, well...I'm a Christian and I surely cannot help them. Nope, not at all. That darn belief thing is getting in the way again.

>At the moment, Akha kids have no papers to identify them. Write to your

>congressman or whatever, and ask him to address the issue of Human Rights

>with the Thai Government. Akha kids normally don't get an education, see above

>for something to help. Akha kids have no access to medical care. See above

>again. Akha adults cannot legally work. See above.

Here is the point where I am fully offended. This whole blanketing of nationalities and religions and TITLES. You tell me that because I'm Christian, I cannot help. Fine, whatever. But instead I should write to my congressman...I'm sorry, have you ever lived in the USA? I mean, I'm sure there are people on this board who do come from here or visitied, etc. And don't get me wrong, I am very well taken care of because I live here...but seriously? You actually said for me to do that? You're telling me that I should write a letter so that someone else can take care of the situation. If the congressman actually gets to SEE my letter...most likely not. They are too concerned with money situations and possible re-elections for the coming year.

And mind you, what happens if my congressman is also religious? Then, I suppose we should just stop it at that because we surely do not want any religious influence AT ALL. Just because I'm American does NOT automatically mean I believe in all of my governments doings. Corruption is EVERYWHERE. The government is FULL of corruption. Especially America. So then, by my writing a letter to a corrupted system, that is better than traveling the distance myself and possibly helping with hands-on things? Does anyone else understand why I am offended?

>This is applicable to others as well, just that it's a bone of contention for me.

I'm quite sorry.

>Don't come here blathering about god, without a copy of the letters you have

>written to your political representatives, who make this country a wonderful

>partner in defending Iraqi rights, while allowing the same folks get away with

>killing the INDIGENOUS minorities.

So, you're saying, as long as I've attempted to write my *possibly* religious congressman and *possibly* corrupted government, I'm allowed to speak with the natives? Thank you of so much for approval. And for the Iraq situations...gotta say I don't want any part of that. I didn't in the beginning and didn't now. I don't even want to think about what my country has possibly done to other countries around the world...again corruption.

>I would be more than happy to see you in the Mango, as has been suggested,

>and tell you why you should be in USA, not Thailand, and debate you on the

>relative merits of xtianity over Buddhism and the need or otherwise, that Akha

>and other hill tribes have for another missionary, getting their rocks off trying to

>solve the worlds problems, in Thailand in 2 weeks.

Please do tell me why I should be in the USA. Because...I'll enjoy my religious freedom here?...No, that can't be it. Because...I can live my life without worrying about being taken care of?...Nope, can't be that either. Because Americans don't understand the situations occuring outside the borders and only wish to promote their own ideas when they actually do venture out into the world?

Are you serious? Just because I'm American does not mean that I don't have a heart, don't have a mind, and don't have the ABILITY to help others. Just because I'm a "Christian" does not mean that I'm better off in America. Why do you phrase the sentence in a manner that suggests Americans are better off at home and leave everyone alone because they are only out for their own good. Again, I'm sorry but truly offensive.

And the debate between Christianity and Buddism? I wouldn't even WANT to listen. Do you know why? Because you are going to give me EXAMPLES of people who do and do not follow the specific guide lines of each religion. All religions, christianity, buddism, mormonism, etc. if followed to the T, are worth believing whole-heartedly. What happens is the bad examples. The people who do not follow the rules the entire time. Which is why I don't like stating I have a religion. But my saying that does not mean I am perfect. No one is perfect. Not even Buddist. There are people to whom we can all respect more than others, but that is case by case, religion or no religion.

>Go home, raise money and then send it to someone who sets up educational

>programs for Akha and other Hilltribes, without the effluent of religious

>instruction as an attachment. Then, and only then, will I give you my vote.

>Personal bravery aside, thank you for your testimony, enjoy your stay here, but,

>like I said, leave the normal xtian target group alone.

Like I stated before, what you're saying is, you're allowed to give money...but only as long as you keep yourself at home and let someone else take care of the dirty work. We all know, "Americans," "Christian," whatever don't like, need, care to be dirty. They've got more important business meetings to attend to.

What I'm trying to say is you CANNOT judge a person by their beliefs. Because doing so, means you judge a majority of the world. They might not be the SAME beliefs, but there is something. This is my first trip, and it will be done as a missionary trip. I'm oh so sorry if that ruffles your feathers. But maybe this is just the beginning for me. Maybe I need this experience to understand what I'm supposed to do with the rest of my life. Maybe I need this to fully visualize the words each one of you have told me about. Maybe THEN, I can come back and personally make sure the money that I raise as us Americans do and see to it that it is not taken into the wrong hands.

I guess I'm up your nose now. I'm sure this was a harsh post. I'm sorry to those of you who I offended, but the water was boiling before I was able to contain it from boiling over.

And I have to add this. To the person who wrote that post, I realize that they were your opinions and I realize you feel strongly about what you said. But you must also realize how your words will be taken. Just like I understand if I offend people by my post today. If I took your words in the wrong manner and you meant something else, please...do tell. And I'm serious about that. no sarcasm at all.

Amy

[allnew]

Now that I've typed that out...

I wish there was something that I could add to the conversation ya'll are having. I wish I could completely understand the situations Akha kids are in. When I first stated that I was online to find information, this is what I was talking about. And the only way to do that is through the people who know it first hand. NBC, ABC, MSNBC, whatever usually devotes their air-time to more American generated problems (such as teenage pregnancy, drug problems, Holleywood highlights).

I hope I didn't offend anyone enough that they would be opposed to me still hanging around here.

So don't mind me, but I'm probably going to be lurking over these topics.

Amy

[chanchao]

> I hope I didn't offend anyone enough that they would be opposed

> to me still hanging around here.

Not at all. I'm not overly religious myself, but I do see your point, and greatly value basic freedom of expression for everyone. Also, in a way, having you here makes this forum a richer place, even (or: especially) when many people disagree with you. At least we're beating the Pattaya forum in terms of number of posts and we mostly have you to thank for it. (Cynical joke)

I think you took TheQuill's post a bit too literally. When he said "after you buy the hill-kid some food then shut up" what is assumed/meant is: "After you buy the hill-kid some food then don't go brain-washing the kid about God & Son." I'm sure even TheQuill wouldn't have a problem with you making small talk.

Personally I also wouldn't have a problem with you asking people about religion. And if a person is receptive to the topic, by all means go tell them what makes you tick in this sense. Some Thais ask me about religion (mostly Thais who are Christian tho.. but if they can do it then so can you.

As for the flower selling kids.. there are people out there with distinctly more evil and abusive intentions with them than Amy would, so prioritizing some would be good, too.

This brings me to my main point (yes there is one.. ) I don't understand why people get so upset about the basic concept of missionaries trying to convert people. Yes there are distinctly bad & evil ways of achieving that (carrot & stick and all), however it kind of suggests that Thais or hilltribe people are not capable of resisting these efforts.

I think it's kind of patronizing towards local people to think that locals are mere meek sheep who are easily led to the slaughter by any missionary who comes along. (Forgive the analogy..

Look at what missionaries achieved among the Thai population the last 200 years. Zilch! And they were never prosecuted in any way, they were allowed in, allowed to do whatever they want, and only a minuscule part of the population actually converted to Christianity. ("Huh, should have been an easy job if Buddhism isn't really a religion you'd think?) Thais are perfectly capable of making their own decisions about religion.

So by all means go talk to them, you may learn something from each other.

By the way, Amy, do you think you will be meeting mostly Thai people or hilltribe people? I get the feeling the program is kind of related to kids who managed to get themselves into trouble such as with drugs, pregnancy at a young age, etc. Is that so? Also is your church paying for your trip? What do you feel would they want in return for it in terms of goals? Call me a cynic but in this world few things happen completely without purpose and just for the love of God..

Cheers,

Chanchao

[Ajarn]

I think it's kind of patronizing towards local people to think that locals are mere meek sheep who are easily led to the slaughter by any missionary who comes along. (Forgive the analogy..

A good point, and one I agree with myself...I mentioned earlier that I've rarely met stupid hilltribe people, but many many types of desperation...

Desperation is what Christianity feeds on, and in some cases, especially involving hilltribes, it can become almost like selling your soul to the devil...

All parents, everywhere, dream for better lives for their children than they had...They dream about good health and happiness for their children. They dream about their kids one day supporting their parents, and try to plan for that day. Formal Education is seen by many as a way to a better life....

So, along come some missionaries to build a school, maybe even a health center....Great!

But, then they often stick around.... And this is where the damage starts to occur, in my experience.

A few days ago, I was talking with my friend Jim Goodman, who has spent the last 20 years studying and writing about the Akha, mostly. I've known Jim most of that time, and I absolutely trust his knowledge and experience with the Akha. I always use him to check out ideas or impressions I've gotten from my visits to various hilltribes..

Anyway, we were dicussing Mathew and the Missionaries (Jim wrote an article about Mathew recently for Irawaddy Magazine)...In the course of our conversation, Jim related a story of a visit he had with an Akha family not too long ago...

He was sitting around chatting with the family, when their daughter said she was christian....Jim asked why she didn't follow the Akhazan (Akha Way), and she replied, "Because Jesus loves me, I know. He told me so" (recognize the song?). The father's face turned sad. "But your father is the (forgot the name, but he's respected in his village as an upholder of the Akkha Way)", Jim said to her...." But he follows the devil!", she responded.... The father turned his face away, and sobbed...

I think this what Mathew also means when he says, "Missionaries Steal Akha Children"

Some of these people ARE using children as pawns in their schemes to convert the Akha. They create more instability within the family and village structure in the process. This insidious conversion ends up contributing only to more and more pain for many....

The adults are quite smart, but the meek sheep are usually the children. It's these sheep many missionaries are courting now, and I believe they do have it in their mind that converting the child is the easiest first step in converting the family.

This isn't giving from the heart, this is giving from the businessman. They expect a return on their investment...

Again, I want to add that not all christians operate like this, but many do. Even one is too many, in my view.

Applaud the people who give, but watch out for the ones who stick around after the giving is done....