Does anyone else working legally in phuket feel like they are getting increasingly shafted?

[illy]

Hi Guys...

the above heading is just a question to all those who are working legally with work permits, paying social and salary tax and trying to do the 'right thing'

are you noticing massive increases in your costs to stay legal?

for me I have noticed the following, in my 6 years of working here:

*work permit used to be 500bht now almost 4000 bht

*accounting audit [12 month return] used to be 12000 now 26000 bht using same thai accountant [not a big company like PVB] and not known and charging for cooking books or under the table methods for farangs just doing real figures on a small company [ Co,.Ltd] that only makes a small amount of money, but enough to meet the legal requirement income.

*some new law that says you can only have a work permit now on single entry non B visa NOT a multiple entry..... <deleted>???

*even my electric bill has gone from an average of 3400 bht to 5200 bht in the last few months when I have been using noticeably less power due to the cool weather and not using the air cond hardly at all.

I have a Thai gf/partner who is pretty savvy on all this stuff so I am not a 'lost farang' getting cheated and manipulated,and even she says Phuket [or perhaps Thailand in general] is getting ridiculous for all the new charges and fees etc.

thanks

illy

[jocko]

My power bill last month 2700b this month 3000b same as you a/c hardly used?

[eezergood]

agreed! water also..........

[SeanPhuket]

I try to look on the brightside and turn a complete blind eye to the clear negativity/things which would piss me off, like I try and create my own rose tints lol and it seems to work ie. I'm much more happy and calm for it.

Your right regarding the electric though. Defo gone up hasn't it?...

edit: terrible english

Edited January 27, 2014 by SeanPhuket

[Sharp]

Yep agree with all...

Sent from my GT-N7000B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[eezergood]

we could protest........

[falkan]

do like the nepalese tailors pay your 1000bath a month strait to the big boss in town 555..

[LivinginKata]

"work permit used to be 500bht now almost 4000 bht"

I paid 3,000 baht for the year, and i paid the same 3,000 baht 10 years ago. i see no increase.

"accounting audit [12 month return] used to be 12000 now 26000 bht using same thai accountant"

We paid about 12,000 10 years ago, this year 16,000 baht. 4,000 baht over 10 years, seems reasonable to me. maybe you need to change accountant.

"some new law that says you can only have a work permit now on single entry non B visa NOT a multiple entry....."

Why not apply for the one year extensions, like I do. Cost me 1,900 baht for the year.

"even my electric bill has gone from an average of 3400 bht to 5200 bht in the last few months when I have been using noticeably less power due to the cool weather and not using the air cond hardly at all."

Electric costs have increased for everyone. Can't say why your bill has increased so much, but unit rates have not increased by the 40% in your example. More like 10% max over the last year. it's called inflation factors.

I can't say that I being 'shafted', however I do feel that the authorities make do not make it any easier each year i apply for annual extension and annual WP application.

[stevehaigh]

you guys are using a lot of electric. i have some renters at the moment and the electric bill is 4200. usually 2800

i keep my electric bill down by running the pool pump for about 6 hours/week, i know this is controversial, but it works

Edited January 27, 2014 by stevehaigh

[Flying Clog]

Christ, my electric is around 15,000 THB per month..... They must have seen me coming.

[Somtamnication]

Overall, Phuket is very expensive. My Chiang Mai buddies are all laughing at me.

[surangw]

Christ, my electric is around 15,000 THB per month..... They must have seen me coming.

do you notice any extention cords or other cables running from your property to another?

the condo I used to have in bkk had a high bill some months, I found out the outlet in one room on a facing wall with the next unit had the wires in an outlet accessed to their room,

[iluvbeaches]

"work permit used to be 500bht now almost 4000 bht"

I paid 3,000 baht for the year, and i paid the same 3,000 baht 10 years ago. i see no increase.

"accounting audit [12 month return] used to be 12000 now 26000 bht using same thai accountant"

We paid about 12,000 10 years ago, this year 16,000 baht. 4,000 baht over 10 years, seems reasonable to me. maybe you need to change accountant.

"some new law that says you can only have a work permit now on single entry non B visa NOT a multiple entry....."

Why not apply for the one year extensions, like I do. Cost me 1,900 baht for the year.

"even my electric bill has gone from an average of 3400 bht to 5200 bht in the last few months when I have been using noticeably less power due to the cool weather and not using the air cond hardly at all."

Electric costs have increased for everyone. Can't say why your bill has increased so much, but unit rates have not increased by the 40% in your example. More like 10% max over the last year. it's called inflation factors.

I can't say that I being 'shafted', however I do feel that the authorities make do not make it any easier each year i apply for annual extension and annual WP application.

16,000 is the norm for accounting up from 14,000 for me. Govt fees haven't changed for me or mine.

[Flying Clog]

Thanks Surangw,

I'll have a look around for cables, but I doubt it. I'm in a secure estate (laguna). I think the problem is likely constant a/c usage, large house, and pool. Cue the violins....

[EBlair48]

That no WP on a multi entry visa. when did that change? Is this for a new WP or a renewal ?

Good grief, another collossal hassle to getting my WP renewed this week. I give up.

I think that is the worst aspect, they have our address, ( or do they ? ) why do they not notify us of these changes, in a timely, civilized manner, like 60 days before hand? That just shows how difficult and Mickey-mouse it is here.

If you have Thai spouse or partner to take care of the business end, I'm sure it is far easier, and I'm quite sure it is designed to make you dependent on a Thai. It's not a place for independent minded, small business owners

I've found the one- year extension to be far from simple, impossible in fact and actually encourages foreigners to pay less to workers- or cheat on books. You need four workers for each WP

However, I need two skilled workers and I pay them over twice the minimum wage, I cannot afford to pay two more at the minimum wage.

I did do this last year, and I lost money for it. When I went it to get the extension, I was told the business had not made enough profit to be eligible.

The officer hinted broadly that I should offer him the sum I would pay going on a visa run, quote; " How much do you pay to go to Penang?"

Being uncomfortable in this situation, afraid to be arrested for offering a bribe, I simply left.

So yes, I find it very difficult re immigration. I also have not been able to find a fair trustworthy accountant.

One I was using was charging me 2400 a month for social security- When I went down there to register for the medical program, I was told as owner of the Co., I cannot apply.

So what is my money going to?, I asked. What money? The accountant had not paid- how do I complain? Was given an email that does not respond.

I have been paying the taxes and such myself last few months, which I gather is illegal. My WP expires this week , and I cannot get it renewed, or even the paper work to do so because of the closures.

I am just about ready to simply leave without closing up the company which is between 50,000 and 100,000 baht to do legally.

Now retirement is not an option as I will be blacklisted at some point on on the company unless I spend approx $ USD 1500-2000 to close it Why on earth does it cost so much? It cannot be but a few days work , maybe just hours.. Of course the rip off accountant told me this so not sure if it is good info.

So yes, I find it incredibly daunting and I regret opening a business, regret moving here and regret ever trusting anyone to have my interests looked out for.

IMO Thailand really shoots itself in the foot over short term rip off gains. The culture as a whole seems to not be able to think of long term gains in making it easy to do business, at least to small investors as opposed to making it as difficult as possible.

Edited January 28, 2014 by EBlair48

[steelepulse]

Let's face it, Phuket is expensive. I got over it a number of years ago and enjoy trips to other countries where I can marvel about certain things being cheaper than Phuket, nice cars, good quality food etc.

[illy]

interesting comments here folks, thanks for that. glad to see [or sorry to say] we are all in the same boat re electric costs. I think my accountant is ripping me off a bit...started so well too!!

[LivinginKata]

@ EBlair48

Lot to digest in your post above. A few comments ...

for sure the one year extension based on income with WP is far from simple. A ton of paperwork, all last years company account and taxes paid, you must prove you paid tax on 65 Kbaht/month. Our company has never really made a profit but i have never been questioned about that by Immigration.

Good accounts are hard to come by. I got rid of our accountant after the first year, too expensive, too slow, and he cost us a fine for his negligence. Do it all ourselves (except for the annual audit). No idea why you think paying the taxes by yourself is illegal, I go down each month and pay the taxes and social security money.

As for social security, you are eligible for social security yourself, indeed you must have it given you have a WP and wage.

Yes, it does involve quite some administrative work to close down a registered company. At least that what accounting companies claim. As I have never tackled that (yet) then I cannot comment on the real cost to do-it-yourself.

[illy]

"work permit used to be 500bht now almost 4000 bht"

I paid 3,000 baht for the year, and i paid the same 3,000 baht 10 years ago. i see no increase.

"accounting audit [12 month return] used to be 12000 now 26000 bht using same thai accountant"

We paid about 12,000 10 years ago, this year 16,000 baht. 4,000 baht over 10 years, seems reasonable to me. maybe you need to change accountant.

"some new law that says you can only have a work permit now on single entry non B visa NOT a multiple entry....."

Why not apply for the one year extensions, like I do. Cost me 1,900 baht for the year.

"even my electric bill has gone from an average of 3400 bht to 5200 bht in the last few months when I have been using noticeably less power due to the cool weather and not using the air cond hardly at all."

Electric costs have increased for everyone. Can't say why your bill has increased so much, but unit rates have not increased by the 40% in your example. More like 10% max over the last year. it's called inflation factors.

I can't say that I being 'shafted', however I do feel that the authorities make do not make it any easier each year i apply for annual extension and annual WP application.

I think my accountant has been adding charges to process my work permit, when initially it was all included in 'the service'....I checked my work permit and the fee was 3000bht last year ...now the accountant wants 5000bht to renew so they are charging service fees for sure, even though she insists its the work permit costs

as for multiple entry non B visa, I have been renewing my visa every year in Australia when I return there...this is my 6th time doing it and never had an issue with multiple entry causing an issue with work permit renewals until now..it seems they just make up these changes as they go and never tell anyone.

I am now getting quotes from other accountants...seems to about 15000 bht on average so my accountant is just taking the piss I think

[illy]

@ EBlair48

Lot to digest in your post above. A few comments ...

for sure the one year extension based on income with WP is far from simple. A ton of paperwork, all last years company account and taxes paid, you must prove you paid tax on 65 Kbaht/month. Our company has never really made a profit but i have never been questioned about that by Immigration.

Good accounts are hard to come by. I got rid of our accountant after the first year, too expensive, too slow, and he cost us a fine for his negligence. Do it all ourselves (except for the annual audit). No idea why you think paying the taxes by yourself is illegal, I go down each month and pay the taxes and social security money.

As for social security, you are eligible for social security yourself, indeed you must have it given you have a WP and wage.

Yes, it does involve quite some administrative work to close down a registered company. At least that what accounting companies claim. As I have never tackled that (yet) then I cannot comment on the real cost to do-it-yourself.

yes I also pay the salary tax and social myself...tried to do it online once not so long ago but would only work if your computer was still on windows XP for some reason

[ivowatson]

work permit is 3100 thb if you do it yourself, if you use an agent, there's a fee but to me 1900 for gasoline is a bit steep.

My accountant charges for annual audit about 15,000 and closing a company about 30,000.

If you're a director in a company, you aren't eligible for social security so don't have to pay monthly fees.

I don't know how they do it but 'electric city' are f#%^king cheaters. It's just impossible to have to pay one month 20% more when using 25% less.

[LivinginKata]

yes I also pay the salary tax and social myself...tried to do it online once not so long ago but would only work if your computer was still on windows XP for some reason

I've never tried paying online, mind you the counter staff always recommend I pay over the internet as it saves them them the trouble

i do use the Immigration's online registration system. Will strictly only work with MS Explorer version 7 & 8. Try anything else and it just sits and stares at you

[LivinginKata]

work permit is 3100 thb if you do it yourself, if you use an agent, there's a fee but to me 1900 for gasoline is a bit steep.

My accountant charges for annual audit about 15,000 and closing a company about 30,000.

If you're a director in a company, you aren't eligible for social security so don't have to pay monthly fees.

I don't know how they do it but 'electric city' are f#%^king cheaters. It's just impossible to have to pay one month 20% more when using 25% less.

Quite right, the application fee is 100 baht and the years fee is 3,000 baht, so 3,100 baht each year.

Again quite right, if you are a company director you can opt out of the social security scheme, but you can also opt in, as asked by EBlair48

[Pomthai]

There is definately something odd going on in Phuket regards electricity. Mine was up to 7,300 from an average of about 5,000. I think its to do with the FT charge whatever that is on the bill. This month it was about 900 something and then its added to the bill and then VAT is added to the lot.

I dont recall the units used and dont have the bills to hand, but Id have though our usage would have been lower this last month, not higher. The Christmas tree does not use alot of power.....

[Valentine]

WP office is now open apparently but I understand the office where you need to get updated company papers is still closed although my accountant told me this morning as long as they are not older than 6 months it should be fine for WP renewal.

[EBlair48]

Can anyone tel llme more about this not getting a WP on a multi- entry visa?

Work permit or renewal?

Living in Kata,

It isn't the forest of paperwork that precludes me from getting an extension this year , it's that I cannot afford four workers when I pay two 700 baht a day.

They have it set up to be low wage, slave drivers. I need my workers to be concientious and so a good job. I want to pay them more. The rules are against me being able to do this if I MUST have 4 workers .

Why not use a set amount , 4 x 9000 monrh you need to pay 36,000 a month

to workers, and just one is OK

Why? Because everyone cheats the same immigration officer told me. He practically told me to cheat, ( them he can get his tea payment)

It's a crooked as it gets.

And last year , when I did pay 4 workers, 2 at 700/day and then a couple of more working part time, the officer at immigration decided to hold me to a higher and apparently arbitrary standard of needing to have an income that covered expenses.

I do not have a Thai spouse, so am thinking I'm seen as fair game.

The accountant told me it is against the law to not have an accountant, a certified accountant in fact. Yes it behooves her to say this - but I have the letter I got when I registered the co, and it says this too

Sure you can pay your own taxes to the office , but , by law, you need an accountant to figure them - though is this OK for just the audit? Not sure

The head of social security office came to my business after I had asked about enrollingmedical and he informed me I am not elilgible for the Social medical system as I own the company, or at least 19,998 shares of it ( Amity )

I never recieved any reply to my complaint of the accountant taking the money out. It was about 30,000 baht.

Will I get killed if I press the issuei? Beat up, or at very least, my property vandalized? Many seem to think so.

@ EBlair48

Lot to digest in your post above. A few comments ...

for sure the one year extension based on income with WP is far from simple. A ton of paperwork, all last years company account and taxes paid, you must prove you paid tax on 65 Kbaht/month. Our company has never really made a profit but i have never been questioned about that by Immigration.

Good accounts are hard to come by. I got rid of our accountant after the first year, too expensive, too slow, and he cost us a fine for his negligence. Do it all ourselves (except for the annual audit). No idea why you think paying the taxes by yourself is illegal, I go down each month and pay the taxes and social security money.

As for social security, you are eligible for social security yourself, indeed you must have it given you have a WP and wage.

Yes, it does involve quite some administrative work to close down a registered company. At least that what accounting companies claim. As I have never tackled that (yet) then I cannot comment on the real cost to do-it-yourself.

Edited January 28, 2014 by EBlair48

[LivinginKata]

WP office is now open apparently but I understand the office where you need to get updated company papers is still closed although my accountant told me this morning as long as they are not older than 6 months it should be fine for WP renewal.

Good, I'll call into the Labour office first thing tomorrow morning. See if my renewal application is still accepted.

[LivinginKata]

Living in Kata,

It isn't the forest of paperwork that precludes me from getting an extension this year , it's that I cannot afford four workers when I pay two 700 baht a day.

They have it set up to be low wage, slave drivers. I need my workers to be concientious and so a good job. I want to pay them more. The rules are against me being able to do this if I MUST have 4 workers .

Why not use a set amount , 4 x 9000 monrh you need to pay 36,000 a month

to workers, and just one is OK

Why? Because everyone cheats the same immigration officer told me. He practically told me to cheat, ( them he can get his tea payment)

It's a crooked as it gets.

And last year , when I did pay 4 workers, 2 at 700/day and then a couple of more working part time, the officer at immigration decided to hold me to a higher and apparently arbitrary standard of needing to have an income that covered expenses.

I do not have a Thai spouse, so am thinking I'm seen as fair game.

The accountant told me it is against the law to not have an accountant, a certified accountant in fact. Yes it behooves her to say this - but I have the letter I got when I registered the co, and it says this too

Sure you can pay your own taxes to the office , but , by law, you need an accountant to figure them - though is this OK for just the audit? Not sure

The head of social security office came to my business after I had asked about enrollingmedical and he informed me I am not elilgible for the Social medical system as I own the company, or at least 19,998 shares of it ( Amity )

I never recieved any reply to my complaint of the accountant taking the money out. It was about 30,000 baht.

Will I get killed if I press the issuei? Beat up, or at very least, my property vandalized? Many seem to think so.

1) Just the rule - must have 4 workers on the payroll and pay Social Security. So employ 2 skilled guys and 2 cleaners on minimum pay. This rule is much relaxed if you have a Thai wife, as I do.

2) For sure you must have an annual audited account by a certified accountant. In our case we make a rough account each month, handover all our paperwork to our accountant at the end of January each year, she prepares it for the audit. We pay her 4,000 baht, and the certified account in Bangkok 12,000 baht.

3) As far as I know you should be able to qualify for Thai social security so long as you submit the paperwork each month and pay the monthly fee (4% of your salary + 4% company contribution)

4) I cannot comment of your relationship with your account. Far as I am concerned best to avoid accountants and lawers and law enforcement in Thailand whenever possible.

[EBlair48]

Appreciate your responses but...Paying two guys 700 baht a day leaves no money for two more. I need the two guys so..

Either I cheat, or I don't. Usually in my life I have found when I try to cheat I get caught and made an example of .

Not sure why the head of the Social Security office would tell me wrong, but they will not enroll me. " Owners do not get medical coverage".

[stevenl]

Appreciate your responses but...Paying two guys 700 baht a day leaves no money for two more. I need the two guys so..

Either I cheat, or I don't. Usually in my life I have found when I try to cheat I get caught and made an example of .

Not sure why the head of the Social Security office would tell me wrong, but they will not enroll me. " Owners do not get medical coverage".

Simply employ 2 more on paper, and pay for all 4 the minimum required social security. All in all you'll be paying about the same as you're paying now, and you abide by the rules.