Dzogchen via intrisic Kundalini

[RandomSand]

Hi members;

I'd like to throw some questions regarding these subjects and wondered if there was any interest on these forums ?

The subjects I'd like to raise are Dzogchen, Nibbana, intrisic Kunalindi, activated Kunalindi, the Crown Chakra, and specifically; Nibbana through meditation and the presence of Kunalindi and the Crown chakra in attainment of Dzogchen and/or Nibbana.

Thanks.

[RandomSand]

I found this article very helpful in explaining how chakra energy is explained in Buddhism (on a very basic level) http://www.dharmalife.com/issue26/playing.html

I would like to ask members here:

Is Nibbana the same as the primordial state of mind aka Dzogchen mind ?

Edited February 1, 2014 by RandomSand

[rockyysdt]

It sounds very much like Nibbana but uses a different way of presenting things.

Very much like religions which espouse the same God but verbalise it differently with variations in the detail.

This was interesting:

This tradition (Dzogchen) emphasizes the indivisibility of appearance and emptiness—also known as the relative and absolute aspects of reality. In this context:

• Appearance (relative truth) refers to the concept that all appearances are dependently originated
• Emptiness (absolute or ultimate truth) refers to the concept that the ‘’nature” of all phenomena is emptiness—lacking inherent existence.

Buddhadasa Bhikkhu (the Buddhas Slave) said of Nibbana:

Nibbana is the Selfs last refuge.

Ultimately Nibbana must also be abandoned as it is just the last puff of smoke in the way.

This seems to fit in the Dzogchen description of "emptiness—lacking inherent existence".

The big question is:

If Nibbana is "emptiness—lacking inherent existence" is there awareness?

For without awareness nothingness is absolute.

Edited February 1, 2014 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

As the Buddha said...contemplating Nibbana can drive you mad. It is unknowable until you have got there. At the very least it wastes time which should be spent practicing.

Its like being on a journey to London, if one stops to sit and wonder about it or discuss it, then one is wasting time which could be spent travelling.

[RandomSand]

Buddhadasa Bhikkhu (the Buddhas Slave) said of Nibbana:

Nibbana is the Selfs last refuge.

Ultimately Nibbana must also be abandoned as it is just the last puff of smoke in the way.

This is saying Nibbana is a conception and therefore answers my question.

Thanks very much for the quote.

I guess that Nibbana is In vitro before the crown chakra has reached equilibria as to allow the re-unity of Brahman*.

*I refer to Brahman as the primordial state of mind aka Dzogchen mind

Edited February 2, 2014 by RandomSand

[RandomSand]

This was interesting:

This tradition (Dzogchen) emphasizes the indivisibility of appearance and emptiness—also known as the relative and absolute aspects of reality. In this context:

• Appearance (relative truth) refers to the concept that all appearances are dependently originated
• Emptiness (absolute or ultimate truth) refers to the concept that the ‘’nature” of all phenomena is emptiness—lacking inherent existence.

The big question is:

If Nibbana is "emptiness—lacking inherent existence" is there awareness?

For without awareness nothingness is absolute.

The first part of your snippet, about the Dzogchen tradition, relates to superstition. Specifically; superstition is the Tibetan term for beliefs or references that are of Mara.

Your question;

It's better to ask this question (as your earlier quote suggests Nibbana is a conception): "If Dzogchen is "emptiness—lacking inherent existence" is there awareness"?

This question is tricky. I think that only a non-superstitious outlook on samsara can answer it properly but the Buddha explains it very well, in a superstitious fashion, via the concept of desire.

[RandomSand]

Sorry I didn't answer the question. It really is very difficult to talk about these things.

[rockyysdt]

As the Buddha said...contemplating Nibbana can drive you mad. It is unknowable until you have got there. At the very least it wastes time which should be spent practicing.

Its like being on a journey to London, if one stops to sit and wonder about it or discuss it, then one is wasting time which could be spent travelling.

Hi Fred.

In contemplating Nibanna my interest is in learning from others who have gone before, perhaps some with experience rooted in Awakening.

What I find rewarding with such forum interaction is that for me it facilitates research of Dhamma and assists in flushing out gems of knowledge and experience from others.

For me, rather than attachment, learning what has been written about Nibanna is an interesting topic.

For example:

It has been said that Hindu & Buddhist Nibanna are almost identical with the following exception.

The Hindu version ends with the successful reunification with Atman.

Then one is joyful in Atman or Self, and contented with reunification of the real self replacing the false self which was previously held to.

Buddhadasa Bikkhu said that Buddhists who hold on to Nibanna as the genuine self are just like Hindus.

Taking refuge in Atman/Brahman/God/Nibanna is of the lesser people.

He said that initially aiming for Nibanna or the higher/genuine self gives one a refuge , but that when attained this must also be abandoned.

Once they know with intelligence Atman/Brahman/God/Nibanna, then they can escape from this chain/fence letting go completely from any Self.

As long as there is a notion of self, higher self, or other (Nibanna) there is no Awakening and freedom from suffering.

In terms of practice, surely that is worth knowing, particularly for those at the higher end of practice/experience.

Edited February 2, 2014 by rockyysdt

[trd]

"As long as there is a notion of self, higher self, or other (Nibanna) there is no Awakening and freedom from suffering."

Quite correct. How can there be any kind of notion of anything as there is no one to perceive such a notion which is of the mind. Awakening is beyond nibanna, bondage and mind. That would be true of both Hindus and Buddhists. There cannot be one truth for Hindus and another for Buddhists.

Edited February 2, 2014 by trd

[trd]

You can spend another thousand lifetimes debating mere concepts and get nowhere. Who knows what the Buddha said? He didn't go around talking like this. He meditated first and discovered the truth which transcends all concepts. He then decided not to teach because it seemed too difficult, but was finally persuaded. People wrote down what he supposedly said. Then various schools of buddhism interpreted that in different ways throughout the ages. This is how you want to spend the valuable time you have?

So follow Buddha's example and transcend all concepts and just abide in that which you already are.

[rockyysdt]

1. "As long as there is a notion of self, higher self, or other (Nibanna) there is no Awakening and freedom from suffering."

2. Quite correct. How can there be any kind of notion of anything as there is no one to perceive such a notion which is of the mind. Awakening is beyond nibanna, bondage and mind. That would be true of both Hindus and Buddhists. There cannot be one truth for Hindus and another for Buddhists.

There are many Buddhists who are attached to the belief in a higher self.

They say anything else is nihlist.

They rationalize non self to to overcome ego (small self), which is followed by Nibbana (revealing of higher self).

In fact the majority of Buddhists believe there is something enduring which is attached to the many re births and which becomes Awakened/Enlightened.

There can be differing truths for Hindus & Buddhists.

The explanation is that there is only one truth and the others are beliefs.

Perhaps, almost no one standing on this planet knows.

[rockyysdt]

He then decided not to teach because it seemed too difficult, but was finally persuaded.

Perhaps.

Or perhaps he thought they would not like to hear what the truth actually was.

Was the truth Eternity in Nibanna (Atman/Brahman/God) as many ascribe, or

Was it the very best a human could live in this life free of religion/superstition and free from aversion, greed & delusion.

Why would anyone dedicate their lives to diligent practice to arrive at "non self" when with favorable lives they could end up in the house of Brahman?

After all, even if it is the truth, the truth remains belief until it is experienced or proven.

Quote: There is nothing on the other side of the curtain.

Edited February 3, 2014 by rockyysdt

[trd]

Cut the root of a tree

And the leaves will wither;

Cut the root of your mind

And Samsara falls.

The light of any lamp

Dispels in a moment

The darkness of long kalpas;

The strong light of the mind

In but a flash will burn

The veil of ignorance.

Whoever clings to mind sees not

The truth of what’s

Beyond the mind.

Whoever strives to practice Dharma

Finds not the truth of

Beyond-practice.

To know what is Beyond both mind and practice,

One should cut cleanly through the root of mind

And stare naked.

One should thus break away

From all distinctions and remain at ease.

-From Tilopa's 'The Song of Mahamudra' (translated by Garma C.C. Chang).

[fabianfred]

The Buddha was hesitant about teaching because he thought...this Nibbana is so profound, who will understand it....at the same time it has been described by others as so simple...who would believe it (like having a mountain right in front of your nose and then finally seeing it... Oh1 so that's it!).

Not quite the big Eureka moment that many are expecting....

I think the whole annata non-self thing is very profound and hard to grasp (that is why only the Buddhas Dhamma teaches it. Even knowing about it and trying to understand is difficult....which is why without a Buddha's teachings we are incapable of coming up with the concept ourselves.

Perhaps as we approach the stage of Anagami we are getting glimpses which allow us to understand more fully..

[trd]

If you understand it by coming up with a concept of it - then it isn't it!

[fabianfred]

If you understand it by coming up with a concept of it - then it isn't it!

You are just picking on words...

Normally the idea that there should be an escape from the round of rebirths is incomprehensible to people, especially since many refuse to believe in rebirth and even afterlife. Therefore without a Buddha showing us the way we could never reach Nibbana..

[RandomSand]

If you understand it by coming up with a concept of it - then it isn't it!

Yes it is... it is already and cannot not be... all concepts become of it

Seriously; The Buddhist meditation methods of deconstruction are a gift of knowledge to anyone who seeks. The important thing to remember is this: trying to build a conceptual framework of belief is the exact opposite of what one needs to do.

Did you ever see a cat with something stuck to it's back leg ? It loses its cool and frantically tries to shake it off... well our minds are like that most of the time. What are we trying to shake off? Death, isn't it ?

Listen to this: Death is not real. Who you are is eternal. Your fear (of "death") is irrational and unproven. Truly... this conception (of "death") is pure superstition! Mediate on death... no! not your cat dying. Mediate on the death of own thoughts.

Do you seriously think that by remaining still and not thinking too much you will die ? Logically; this isn't very rational at all when you consider the facts.

You can't realise the truth of this logically. All attempts to realise without practice are like the cat shaking the back leg frantically.

Edited February 4, 2014 by RandomSand

[trd]

If you understand it by coming up with a concept of it - then it isn't it!

You are just picking on words...

Normally the idea that there should be an escape from the round of rebirths is incomprehensible to people, especially since many refuse to believe in rebirth and even afterlife. Therefore without a Buddha showing us the way we could never reach Nibbana..

To awaken to the emptiness is indescribable. However words are all I have when trying to communicate with you......

[trd]

The Buddha to guide you is the satguru within.

[trd]

If you understand it by coming up with a concept of it - then it isn't it!

Yes it is... it is already and cannot not be... all concepts become of it

Seriously; The Buddhist meditation methods of deconstruction are a gift of knowledge to anyone who seeks. The important thing to remember is this: trying to build a conceptual framework of belief is the exact opposite of what one needs to do.

Did you ever see a cat with something stuck to it's back leg ? It loses its cool and frantically tries to shake it off... well our minds are like that most of the time. What are we trying to shake off? Death, isn't it ?

Listen to this: Death is not real. Who you are is eternal. Your fear (of "death") is irrational and unproven. Truly... this conception (of "death") is pure superstition! Mediate on death... no! not your cat dying. Mediate on the death of own thoughts.

Do you seriously think that by remaining still and not thinking too much you will die ? Logically; this isn't very rational at all when you consider the facts.

You can't realise the truth of this logically. All attempts to realise without practice are like the cat shaking the back leg frantically.

Yes agreed. So practice it and become it and you won't have to conceptualize as you just have.

[trd]

Do you think there is something very special about realization? There is not. It is quite ordinary. It is just becoming who you already are. It is perfect peace of mind, freedom from fear, dissolution of ego and a spontaneous unfolding of life within silence. It amuses me that so many make this such a difficult task. But I do understand how difficult it is to drop the mind. That is the key. Once you realise this then the pathless path is clear. Buddhist analytical thinking just confuses this simple message.

There is no teacher. There is no student. There is no teaching.

[rockyysdt]

Do you think there is something very special about realization? There is not. It is quite ordinary. It is just becoming who you already are. It is perfect peace of mind, freedom from fear, dissolution of ego and a spontaneous unfolding of life within silence. It amuses me that so many make this such a difficult task. But I do understand how difficult it is to drop the mind. That is the key. Once you realise this then the pathless path is clear. Buddhist analytical thinking just confuses this simple message.

There is no teacher. There is no student. There is no teaching.

Precisely TRD.

Where it becomes complicated is due to attachment to the religious side of Buddhism.

• Rebirth to many lives.
• Higher self in common with the many lives.
• Eternal Self attaining Stream Entry (upper circle ticket assuring Enlightenment within just a few Re Births).
• Higher self surviving into Nibanna.
• Several relms ranging from hell to deva.
• Living on after death.

These are the things which conflict with Anatta & Anicca and make things complicated, Ego related, and that of belief.

There is a crossroad.

Dharma supports both depending on your interpretation.

1. As you describe. or

2. A Buddhist heaven reunited with ones higher self.

Edited February 4, 2014 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Do you think there is something very special about realization? There is not. It is quite ordinary. It is just becoming who you already are. It is perfect peace of mind, freedom from fear, dissolution of ego and a spontaneous unfolding of life within silence. It amuses me that so many make this such a difficult task. But I do understand how difficult it is to drop the mind. That is the key. Once you realise this then the pathless path is clear. Buddhist analytical thinking just confuses this simple message.

There is no teacher. There is no student. There is no teaching.

Does it warrant dedicating ones entire life towards practice in order to achieve, at the exclusion of daily life/relationships/commerce?

Bikkhus/Bikkhunis are one example.

Edited February 4, 2014 by rockyysdt

[trd]

No. When you awaken to this reality, there is no further practice required. Life in the relative world and the body continues of its own accord, unfolding from the emptiness within and without leaving an impression on the mind. This is non attachment. If you press your foot on the sand it will leave an impression, but not so on water.

This "state" for the want of a better word in no way prevents you from enjoying movies, listening to music, doing business, being with friends etc. When you drive a car are you consciously thinking about every single movement of your foot on the gas pedal and do you scrutinize from moment to moment every motion of your hands and fingers on the steeering wheel? No. It is automatic. This is how life becomes.

[Commander Tamson]

No. When you awaken to this reality, there is no further practice required. Life in the relative world and the body continues of its own accord, unfolding from the emptiness within and without leaving an impression on the mind. This is non attachment. If you press your foot on the sand it will leave an impression, but not so on water.

This "state" for the want of a better word in no way prevents you from enjoying movies, listening to music, doing business, being with friends etc. When you drive a car are you consciously thinking about every single movement of your foot on the gas pedal and do you scrutinize from moment to moment every motion of your hands and fingers on the steeering wheel? No. It is automatic. This is how life becomes.

You talk very knowledgeable about this subject TRD. I've spent months if not years trying to understand these concepts, from trolling the internet to reading books and books on the supposed teachings of the Buddha,meditation techniques and guides and also trying to get into deep conversations and discussion with many master monks here. I am as far away from an true understanding as I ever was. I genuinely would be interested in your directions on where the make the start on this path and how to initially progress. If this seems a massive task for you, please feel free to PMme with even a recorded reading list. Thanks in anticipation

Yours aye

[trd]

Where are you based commander?

[trd]

Just seen your location from your profile. I'll PM you.

[rockyysdt]

No. When you awaken to this reality, there is no further practice required. Life in the relative world and the body continues of its own accord, unfolding from the emptiness within and without leaving an impression on the mind. This is non attachment. If you press your foot on the sand it will leave an impression, but not so on water.

Thanks TRD.

The dedication to practice I'm referring to is that required to achieve a state of awakening from which no further practice is required.

Becoming fully awakened is the challenge requiring considerable effort/practice/dedication.

Most may practice all their lives and fall short of this pinnacle.

Is the effort (Bikkhu/Bikkhuni or many hours of Sitting/Retreat life coupled with Mindfulness & Precept adherence) worth quote: "It is quite ordinary. It is just becoming who you already are"?

Edited February 4, 2014 by rockyysdt

[trd]

I am talking of the same practice as you are which leads to an awakening which requires no further practice.

Why is it ordinary? Because it cannot be anything other than what you are. Are you expecting fireworks? Is the practice worth the effort to just be what you are. If you want to end suffering, it is.

I think you have this mythological image of the Buddha as some towering figure lost in the mists of time and what has come down to you are long complex texts which have been revised, interpreted and then re-interpreted. A kind of Da Vinci code that is difficult and near impossible to crack. The more difficult and esoteric it seems, the more valuable it becomes. In your lifetime you have probably passed several buddhas in the street without noticing.

[rockyysdt]

1. I am talking of the same practice as you are which leads to an awakening which requires no further practice.

2. Why is it ordinary? Because it cannot be anything other than what you are. Are you expecting fireworks? Is the practice worth the effort to just be what you are. If you want to end suffering, it is.

3. I think you have this mythological image of the Buddha as some towering figure lost in the mists of time and what has come down to you are long complex texts which have been revised, interpreted and then re-interpreted. A kind of Da Vinci code that is difficult and near impossible to crack. The more difficult and esoteric it seems, the more valuable it becomes. In your lifetime you have probably passed several buddhas in the street without noticing.

1. What constitutes full Awakening which results in no further practice required? Must one abandon their self completely?

A colleague who is dissatisfied with life, is marrying only to please the other, and constantly finds ways to occupy his mind thinks that to abandon ones self or ego is to enter a mindless state.

He'd rather spend his time doing things which please him.

2. In terms of being worth it, we are asked to abandon/sacrifice many things (attachments) and devote much time with no guarantee.

3. I agree that the work of many throughout history is often embellished/misinterpreted or hijacked into something not reflecting the original teaching.

Allowing Buddhagosa in the 5th to interpret the Buddhas works (Modern Theravada) is like selecting the Pope to update the works of Islam or Judaism.

Buddhagosa already believed in such things as Brahman, and believed his work associated with the Pali Canon would guarantee him a place in the house of Brahman where he could live until the coming of the next Buddha who would them assist him to become enlightened.

Buddhagosas filtered eyes spawned such interpretations as:

• Wat: a Monastery (place of reverence and worship) rather then a building where Bikkhus/Bikkhunis live.
• Bikkhu/Bikkhuni: a Monk (religious flavor) rather than one who is dedicated to the practice of Dharma.
• Mara: Evil personified, rather than being symbolic of dependent origination/arising and attachment to greed, aversion & delusion.
• Re Birth: A cycle of actually being reborn into many lives due to the forces of unspent Kharma/Vipaka, rather than moment to moment arising, so fast, it gives the illusion of Self.

My image of the Buddha is open.

Until self experience reveals truth, my image is shaped by the dozens of posters here and from other sources.

Dozens who subscribe to Buddhagosa's interpretation of the Buddha and Dharma as well as those of more moderate leanings.

Dozens who subscribe to a higher self emerging once Enlightenment takes place, as well as those who suggest an Awakening free from Greed, Aversion and Delusion in this life.

Edited February 5, 2014 by rockyysdt