Have UK ILR & BRP, need Schengen Visa fo EU travel?

[samsingsong]

My Thai wife's 4 yearSchengen visa has expired. I emailed the Dutch Embassy in Bangkok to enquire about a renewal.

I mentioned that my wife now has Indefinite Leave to Remain in the UK and has a UK Biometric Residence Permit.

The embassy has replied that she doesn't now need a Schengen Visa as she is free to travel in the EU with her UK Residence Permit together with her passport. Although this may be the case legally, is it really that easy?

Whenever we have flown within the EU they always check she has a Schengen Visa before allowing her to board the plane, Also, is it likely that all EU immigration officers are aware that she is entitled to entry without a visa?

We obviously don't want any time consuming hassle at either departure or arrival ports.

[Petergreet]

then get a renewal.

The only time one can travel freely around europe with a thai passport with no visa, is when you are a british citizen.

I recall when my wife got her citizenship we travelled to germany straight after that and before she could obtain a british passport. We took with us her naturalisation certificate, although It raised a few eyebrows it was accepted both by the airline and german and british immigration, though the germans did make us wait sometime as the case was given to a higher authority.

[howerde]

I now believe that if your wife is travelling with you then no visa is required, under freedom of movement(your wifes rights are derived from yours as an eu citizen), though you might have to carry your marriage certificate and translation, is ner name in her passport the same as yours? if travelling by herself then she needs a visa.

This is all well and easy if you are going from uk to holland, however if you are flying from Bangkok to Holland, then trying to explain freedom of movement to thai airline/immigration would be very hard, and i would get a visa, explain that to dutch embassy, i assume thai nationals are not visa exempt from holland.

Edited February 8, 2014 by howerde

[malct]

I know that i had a lot of hassle getting a travel visa for my wife to travel to lanzarote on a settlement visa, so what your saying, because my wife has her IIR, we can now book a last minute deal and head off to the airport with our marriage certificate and translation in hand and her thai passport showing her married name, and if questioned at immigration, i just need to explain the freedom of movement for a UK spouse.

If this is correct, then i see a cheap holiday coming up soon to spain ;-)

[howerde]

I know that i had a lot of hassle getting a travel visa for my wife to travel to lanzarote on a settlement visa, so what your saying, because my wife has her IIR, we can now book a last minute deal and head off to the airport with our marriage certificate and translation in hand and her thai passport showing her married name, and if questioned at immigration, i just need to explain the freedom of movement for a UK spouse.

If this is correct, then i see a cheap holiday coming up soon to spain ;-)

That is the theory of freedom of movement, but airlines don't understand immigration, if she has a thai passport then the airlines will be looking for a shengen visa full stop., trying to explain that to the airline, this is where the trouble starts, go to immigrationboards. com put www in front(i can not post a link), look under eea rules. there is a wealth ok knowledge about this, if not someone will show where it is written down.

[Jay Sata]

The airlines have a right to deny boarding or transportation. They are not in the business of sorting out visa problems.

In most cases it's not airline staff but handling agents who check you in on a flight. If your documentation is going to cause them problems they reject you at check in.

An airline that transports someone who is denied access to a country at immigration has to cover the cost of returning them to the point of departure.

It's not worth the hassle to take a wadge of papers to an airline check in and spout EU immigration rules and regulations.

[samsingsong]

Thanks for your replies so far…. Keep ‘em coming… I haven’t had the one I want yet!

Of course the answer would be to simply get another Schengen Visa…. IF it was just that easy.

My wife previously was issued 3 Schengen Visa’s by the French Embassy in Bangkok. The last visa was a 4 year visa and expired last year. But getting those visa’s was a real pain in the neck. Long hot bus rides to Bangkok. Sometimes had to book a hotel. Long waits in Embassy queues. Then the same again when returning to collect the passport. I think I’m getting too old for it!

It looks like it might now be even more difficult, with some embassies outsourcing the issue of these visa’s to VFS. Some now want firm evidence of travel arrangements, and we just want to be free to enter any EU country whenever we want to (can afford the trip!). I think a BRP should show that she has jumped through enough burning hoops to prove her status and should be accepted anywhere in the EU.

In the UK we live near an airport which has Ryan Air and over the last 8 years we have taken advantage of a dozen cheap deals to fly to France, Spain and Italy, and have toured extensively by car.

We’ve been married for 9 years and have a certified translation of the Thai Marriage Certificate, which has been legalised by the British Embassy in Bangkok. My wife’s passport bears my surname.

I suppose I was hoping that I would get a lot of replies from people saying “No problem mate. My missus just shows her passport and British Residents Permit. We’ve been everywhere”.

Although apparently it should be legal to travel by this means, and I would have hoped that all EU airlines and immigration would be aware of this, sadly I’ve had no positive replies from people who have successfully done it!

[malct]

I would also like to hear the same, but regarding the Schengen Visa, you need to have a holiday booked and to show insurance to the consulate which is a pain in the bum because it means you cant go on a last minute booking and there is a risk that the Schengen Visa been refused!!!

when we went to spain, the visa was only valid for the 2 weeks, But can anyone tell me if you can get a extended Schengen Visa and for how long?

On entering Lanzarote, my wifes passport was checked and stamped.

[samsingsong]

malct ".....when we went to spain, the visa was only valid for the 2 weeks, But can anyone tell me if you can get a extended Schengen Visa and for how long?"

.

I don't have any info to hand, but I've not heard of a 2 week visa? My understanding is that on entering the Schengen area you have up to 90 days stay.

My wife's first 2 Schengen visa's, granted by the French Embassy, were for 1 year. Than after my wife was granted a 5 year UK Visitors Visa, she was then granted a 4 year Schengen Visa.

[bobrussell]

The airlines have a right to deny boarding or transportation. They are not in the business of sorting out visa problems.

In most cases it's not airline staff but handling agents who check you in on a flight. If your documentation is going to cause them problems they reject you at check in.

An airline that transports someone who is denied access to a country at immigration has to cover the cost of returning them to the point of departure.

It's not worth the hassle to take a wadge of papers to an airline check in and spout EU immigration rules and regulations.

Plus a hefty fine in most cases!

If travelling with an EU spouse you should not be required to show accommodation or proof of insurance. On the application form many of the boxes do not apply to a non-EU spouse. They should be free (may charge a processing fee). This does not apply if travelling without your spouse. Those journeys require a full Schengen visa.

At least in theory!!

Edited February 10, 2014 by bobrussell

[malct]

Its the hassle getting the visa's, i think that i have to travel to Manchester now which is a 260 miles round trip. Dont know why they cant do postal visa's for Europe

[pasak]

Apologies for butting in on a very worthwhile discussion but would someone mind clarifying what the procedure and requirements are for the (Thai) spouse of a UK national, travelling with her spouse by car to the Schengen area for <90 days, mostly to France and Italy. The spouse would not yet have ILR and would be on a settlement visa.

I am assuming that we would need to go to the French Embassy to submit our application. What should we take with us? I am suggesting that we would need to present the following:

- Her Thai passport (not expiring or with UK visa not expiring within 3 months of end of proposed dates of trip)

- 2 identical colour passport sized photos

- A completed application form

- A signed translation of our Thai marriage certificate (copy or original?)

- Evidence of sufficient funds @ EUR60 per day (via presentation of a bank stamped and signed <30 days old statement. Can the statement be in the UK national's name or must there be some funds in the Thai spouse's name?)

- Adequate travel insurance (to include repatriation and cover exceeding EUR30,000)

- An itinerary

What about reservations and return ferry tickets? We would prefer not to make reservations or book the ferry but obviously could do so if required.

Have I included any unnecessary items or omitted anything?

Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Also, maybe someone would explain what is meant by the following:

"That their continuous residence status within the UK is formally confirmed by an impartial referee." (from the French Embassy's website).

[Donutz]

If you are married, and you are a UK citizen, her residence status doesn't matter much at all. If she has no visa, a 6 month visa, or some sort of ressidence permit, it doesn't matter. A family member of a EU citizen falls under the Freedom of Movement rights. In most cases a visa is still needed (exception: having an EU residence permit issued under EU rights -Surrender Singh route- and traveling together with EU spouse). The family of an EU citizen is entitled to a free visa issued with minimum hassle. You only need to show that you are indeed married (shows family link) by a marriage certificate, and that you plan on going to an other EU country then your own together (a written statement from the EU spouse, possibly airplane or ferry tickets), no need for hotel reservations, insurance (though I would make sure the both of you are properly insured anyway!) or financial means.

See:
The Schengen Sticky: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/724180-schengen-visa-faq/ check all posts, especially #20 might be of use.
A recent topic: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/731531-help-needed-please-for-spanish-tourist-visa-for-my-thai-wife-who-is-a-uk-resident-with-ilr/
EU webpage: http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/non-eu-family/index_en.htm


It sounds like samsingsong got kinda screwed by the French due to incometence or unwillingness to apply the rules correctly. His wife should have been granted a FREE visa with minimal documentation. This is covered by the Schengen visa rules (810/2009) which is in line with the EU Freedom Of Movement rights (2004/38). If you don't have a ferry reservation you don't need to submit one, a statement from you should be enough, but ofcourse a reservation would make your application stronger. You simply need to make it plausible that you two will be traveling together, for all we know you'd hop in a hot airballoon or swim across the Channel!

If all would fail: under freedom of movement you should be allowed to access all EU countries if your wife can show she is your family (marriage certificate, passports). The French would then have to issue a visa on arrival (border entry visa). Don't count on carriers to know the rules though... from the EU to the UK it would be simpeler, a mainland EU citizen could show the marriage certiicate to the UK officers stationed in Calais, trouble from Ferry staff would be extremely unlikely since in that case, the other way around... I don't know. Has been a while since I took the ferry, never took notice of any border control as I was still single back then.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Donutz

[RAZZELL]

If you are married, and you are a UK citizen, her residence status doesn't matter much at all. If she has no visa, a 6 month visa, or some sort of ressidence permit, it doesn't matter. A family member of a EU citizen falls under the Freedom of Movement rights. In most cases a visa is still needed (exception: having an EU residence permit issued under EU rights -Surrender Singh route- and traveling together with EU spouse). The family of an EU citizen is entitled to a free visa issued with minimum hassle. You only need to show that you are indeed married (shows family link) by a marriage certificate, and that you plan on going to an other EU country then your own together (a written statement from the EU spouse, possibly airplane or ferry tickets), no need for hotel reservations, insurance (though I would make sure the both of you are properly insured anyway!) or financial means.

See:

The Schengen Sticky: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/724180-schengen-visa-faq/ check all posts, especially #20 might be of use.

A recent topic: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/731531-help-needed-please-for-spanish-tourist-visa-for-my-thai-wife-who-is-a-uk-resident-with-ilr/

EU webpage: http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/non-eu-family/index_en.htm

It sounds like samsingsong got kinda screwed by the French due to incometence or unwillingness to apply the rules correctly. His wife should have been granted a FREE visa with minimal documentation. This is covered by the Schengen visa rules (810/2009) which is in line with the EU Freedom Of Movement rights (2004/38). If you don't have a ferry reservation you don't need to submit one, a statement from you should be enough, but ofcourse a reservation would make your application stronger. You simply need to make it plausible that you two will be traveling together, for all we know you'd hop in a hot airballoon or swim across the Channel!

If all would fail: under freedom of movement you should be allowed to access all EU countries if your wife can show she is your family (marriage certificate, passports). The French would then have to issue a visa on arrival (border entry visa). Don't count on carriers to know the rules though... from the EU to the UK it would be simpeler, a mainland EU citizen could show the marriage certiicate to the UK officers stationed in Calais, trouble from Ferry staff would be extremely unlikely since in that case, the other way around... I don't know. Has been a while since I took the ferry, never took notice of any border control as I was still single back then.

All true and fine in theory.

However, I think your "real word experience" of trying to get on a busy Easyjet, Ryanair flight or infact any other carrier will be somewhat different - even if you do quote the rules.

To the OP - I'd just suck it up and get the Schengen

RAZZ

[Donutz]

That is what I wrote: get the free Schengen visa with minimal documentation. The embassy should issue the EU/EEA family member visa swifly.

If all fails and you run out of time, you could try to get a visa at the border. Would be difficult to get onboard an airplane though, ferry, I don't know. Failing all that, swim across the Channel with your papers in a sealed bag.

[7by7]

Going back to the OP.

My understanding is:-

Any non EEA national who has permanent residence in any EEA state as the qualifying family member, e.g. spouse, of an EEA national has, if I understand it correctly, the same freedom of movement rights within the EEA as an EEA national; even if they are travelling alone.

However, I know of people who have had problems entering a Schengen state, and even being refused entry, with just their ILR stamp.

These problems come because the UK immigration rules do not have a category of permanent residence. Instead, the UK issues applicants using the UK immigration rules indefinite leave to remain.

Indefinite, not permanent.

Plus, in order to benefit from the freedom of movement regulations, the non EEA national's PR permit/card/stamp must say that they obtained PR because they are the qualifying family member of an EEA national and contain the name of that EEA national.

In the past, UK ILR stamps did not say this, they didn't even give the reason for ILR being granted. Whether or not the new biometric residence permits do, I don't know as I haven't seen one.

As Schengen visas for the qualifying family member of an EEA national are free, simple and quick to obtain; my advice is to get one.

Then, once qualified, apply for naturalisation as British and then a British passport.

Not only will this make travel within the EEA simple, but also there are many more countries which allow visa free entry as a visitor to British passport holders than do for Thai passport holders.