Pheu Thai smells a 'trap' in EC bid for new decree

[JesseFrank]

So if only 3 voters in the whole of Thailand would show up to vote, because the other 40 million something want PT out, and 2 of them vote for PT you still consider they have a majority.

Allow me to offer you a nice present . From me to you :

Stop trying to make your own rules for democracy. It seems like you have never experienced a real election before.

A lot of elections in the West have participation rates of the same size as the one in the recent Thai election - 47%. And these elections were totally uninterrupted by hooligans and no one boycotted them. They were not deemed invalid due to having a participation rate less than 50%. Stop pretending you know anything about democracy when it is so glaringly obvious you are ignorant.

First of all we are not in the west, where voting is often complementary, while in Thailand it is compulsory.

Second the question was about if PT had a majority in the latest election or a minority.

Third, the thing I'm not ignorant of is that Thaksin has been looting the state coffers for the past two and a half year ( actually much longer ), and that this is getting obvious to many people now, and they all want them out.

Your point about majority/minority is totally erroneous - hardly any government the world wide over has an absolute majority of all eligible voters. Democracy would cease being an effective form of government if your ignorant new rules were to be imposed on any country.

The current Thai government is legitimate and will be considered legitimate by anyone with a tiny bit of understanding of the electoral process. The pathetic attempts of the anti-democrats to disrupt the election failed miserably. The efforts of the EC and other yellow elements within the formal system to annul the election may succeed but it will not be on any justifiable grounds but the same legal loopholes they have used in the past to get their own way.

Your other point - Thaksin is corrupt. Now this is news that really surprises me. I have never heard that mentioned before and I am gobsmacked. I always thought Thai politics was the epitome of decency and clean hands - you have shaken my belief in humanity. I hop you are happy (btw. this last paragraph was sarcasm)

So your idea about democracy is, that if a government is elected legitimate, but during the next two and a half year it gets obvious that they are abusing their power and looting the state coffers, you just let them go one.

You think that would work in the west ?

[ourmanflint]

democracy like pushing through a bill at 3.a.m. without allowing a proper debate..i get your idea of democracy your version obviously...piss poor effort to on your behalf to ridicule a valid post....jog on dreamer

Again a post by someone who has no idea of what democracy is. there is nothing illegitimate about "pushing through" a bill at 3 am as long as it is done in parliament and it is voted in by a majority.

Which constitution has a rule that says no law may be passed after midnight as this is unfair?

Allowing a proper debate? Well, no one can stop people from having debates but it is the government that decides when the bill will have to be voted on. Again, there is nothing illegitimate about this. If a government was not able to proceed to voting on a bill then the opposition could use what is called a filibuster to delay the passing of such a bill indefinitely.

You don't sound too unreasonable, but unfortunately, you miss the point completely. It's not that the bill was passed at 3am, it was that the 3rd reading of the bill was scheduled to be at 9am the next day. The second reading was scheduled to have finished at midnight, not unreasonable. MPs expecting to be able to vote the next day awoke to find the government pushed the 3rd reading forward at midnight without, I'll say that again so you understand.. without informing MPs who were due to vote the next day. If you cannot understand why that is deemed undemocratic, then I suggest you like your apologist pro YL friends will never ever understand anything about how this government manipulates anything and everything to achieve its goal to fleece the nation not just for this year and next year, but for the next 50 - 100 years.

[bigbamboo]

It truly amazes me how supposedly intelligent and well educated Westerners cannot see the obvious as a result of their blind partisanship.

The topic of this thread is that PT suspects that the EC may be deliberately misleading the caretaker govt into taking some unconstitutional action in the hope of getting the 2 Feb elections annulled. It is no secret after all that the EC was not in favour of the 2 Feb elections (even the most diehard pro-reform supporter cannot deny this).

Instead of debating whether there is a need for this second decree, the usual suspects jump in before engaging their brains with the usual tirade of name-calling, corruption deals, DL Thaksin etc etc.

I was one of the first posters to question the need for a second Royal Decree two days ago

(http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/702840-government-will-be-asked-to-issue-a-royal-decree-to-declare-new-election/#entry7408626). Thai politicians may not be as intelligent as some of the politicians from your home countries but they are also not as stupid as you think (and definitely, judging from the intellectual level of many of the posts, a lot more intelligent than a lot of you).

Let the flaming begin, trolls

I don't think flaming and trolls are allowed on TV?

I do think that 47 per cent of the electorate voting and with 10 per cent of the polling stations compromised by protestors that figure can be extrapolated to 52 per cent is not a good turn out. If the Dems had stood, which they should have done on a no vote platform, PT's vote would have still been significantly down on last time. Of course Suthep's actions have hopelessly clouded the issue and this plays into the hands of Thaksin whose people can spin away the figures until no one knows what day it is.

And as usual in Thai politics the biggest losers are the Thai people.

Edited February 9, 2014 by bigbamboo

[moonao]

Stop trying to make your own rules for democracy. It seems like you have never experienced a real election before.

A lot of elections in the West have participation rates of the same size as the one in the recent Thai election - 47%. And these elections were totally uninterrupted by hooligans and no one boycotted them. They were not deemed invalid due to having a participation rate less than 50%. Stop pretending you know anything about democracy when it is so glaringly obvious you are ignorant.

First of all we are not in the west, where voting is often complementary, while in Thailand it is compulsory.

Second the question was about if PT had a majority in the latest election or a minority.

Third, the thing I'm not ignorant of is that Thaksin has been looting the state coffers for the past two and a half year ( actually much longer ), and that this is getting obvious to many people now, and they all want them out.

Your point about majority/minority is totally erroneous - hardly any government the world wide over has an absolute majority of all eligible voters. Democracy would cease being an effective form of government if your ignorant new rules were to be imposed on any country.

The current Thai government is legitimate and will be considered legitimate by anyone with a tiny bit of understanding of the electoral process. The pathetic attempts of the anti-democrats to disrupt the election failed miserably. The efforts of the EC and other yellow elements within the formal system to annul the election may succeed but it will not be on any justifiable grounds but the same legal loopholes they have used in the past to get their own way.

Your other point - Thaksin is corrupt. Now this is news that really surprises me. I have never heard that mentioned before and I am gobsmacked. I always thought Thai politics was the epitome of decency and clean hands - you have shaken my belief in humanity. I hop you are happy (btw. this last paragraph was sarcasm)

So your idea about democracy is, that if a government is elected legitimate, but during the next two and a half year it gets obvious that they are abusing their power and looting the state coffers, you just let them go one.

You think that would work in the west ?

it is called elections, they get voted out, and that's exactly what happened to Abhisit and Suthep in 2011.

stop pretending you know anything about democracy, it's obvious to all you don't have a clue.

[Gweiloman]

It truly amazes me how supposedly intelligent and well educated Westerners cannot see the obvious as a result of their blind partisanship.

The topic of this thread is that PT suspects that the EC may be deliberately misleading the caretaker govt into taking some unconstitutional action in the hope of getting the 2 Feb elections annulled. It is no secret after all that the EC was not in favour of the 2 Feb elections (even the most diehard pro-reform supporter cannot deny this).

Instead of debating whether there is a need for this second decree, the usual suspects jump in before engaging their brains with the usual tirade of name-calling, corruption deals, DL Thaksin etc etc.

I was one of the first posters to question the need for a second Royal Decree two days ago

(http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/702840-government-will-be-asked-to-issue-a-royal-decree-to-declare-new-election/#entry7408626). Thai politicians may not be as intelligent as some of the politicians from your home countries but they are also not as stupid as you think (and definitely, judging from the intellectual level of many of the posts, a lot more intelligent than a lot of you).

Let the flaming begin, trolls

I don't think flaming and trolls are allowed on TV?

I do think that 47 per cent of the electorate voting and with 10 per cent of the polling stations compromised by protestors that figure can be extrapolated to 52 per cent is not a good turn out. If the Dems had stood, which they should have done on a no vote platform, PT's vote would have still been significantly down on last time. Of course Suthep's actions have hopelessly clouded the issue and this plays into the hands of Thaksin whose people can spin away the figures until no one knows what day it is.

And as usual in Thai politics the biggest losers are the Thai people.

I don't think flaming and trolls are allowed on TV?

How I wish that were so. The likes of you and I then won't have to waste half our time reading nonsense posts.

On your point about the voter turnout. If the Dems had not boycotted the elections and the PDRC had not disrupted candidate registration and actively prevented people from voting, there is no reason to think that the voter turnout would not have been like before. Sadly, we will never know.

[Mark Thaiford]

MPs expecting to be able to vote the next day awoke to find the government pushed the 3rd reading forward at midnight without, I'll say that again so you understand.. without informing MPs who were due to vote the next day.

Accepting what you say as true, I would not even say that is sufficient reason to say a government has become illegitimate. It certainly would be tricky to bring forward a reading to early morning when all the members of the "Democratic" party might be having a lie in, but it is not illegal. As the "Democrats" think the worst of PTP they should be aware of such tricks and prepare for them. I doubt the government had been able to spring a surprise vote not allowing the "Democrats" sufficient time to gather to take part in the voting.

If the government had made a vote at a time when the Democrats were not present in chambers and had deliberately blocked the doors to prevent Democrats from entering for example then that is clearly un-Democratic. However, just having a vote at 3 am which some sleepy-head Democrats could not get up for is devious for sure but not something that makes a government illegitimate.

If the Democrats were up to their jobs they should have been able to call in their MPs asap and have taken part in the voting. If afterwards the Democrats found the procedure the PTP pursued as reprehensible they should push for new rules that would disallow such tricks. They should have addressed this issue through parliamentary means. Instead they spat out their dummy and tried to overthrow the government by encouraging anarchy and lawbreaking. If anyone should be legally banned from Thai politics it should be the Democrats supporting the illegal activities of Suthep.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Mark Thaiford

[SOTIRIOS]

....poor victims.....everyone is bad except for the government......

[phantomfiddler]

Those who do not trust are not to be trusted, sad but true Read in a popular book once where it was stated that an attractive woman can get away with anything, since there are so many out there who are swayed by a pretty face. I know loads of people who voted for the puppet for this reason only, a person of no political experience, who has never engaged in one political debate, and who seems incapable of directly answering any question without sidestepping the entire issue. You gotta love ,em

[fab4]

Try googling Thai parliamentary system for a starters

No need to change the subject, is less than 50% of 47% of eligible voters a majority or a minority ?

Well we don't know yet, as the results are not known or final - the election hasn't finished yet. That's what the OP is about in case you'd forgotten in your desperate attempts to score "points".

Edited February 9, 2014 by fab4

[JesseFrank]

Try googling Thai parliamentary system for a starters

No need to change the subject, is less than 50% of 47% of eligible voters a majority or a minority ?

Well we don't know yet, as the results are not known or final - the election hasn't finished yet. That's what the OP is about in case you'd forgotten in your desperate attempts to score "points".

In case you forgot it, even if all the 28 constituencies that weren't able to vote, would vote now 100% PT, they still couldn't get a majority .

Sorry, no points for you.

[fab4]

Those who do not trust are not to be trusted, sad but true Read in a popular book once where it was stated that an attractive woman can get away with anything, since there are so many out there who are swayed by a pretty face. I know loads of people who voted for the puppet for this reason only, a person of no political experience, who has never engaged in one political debate, and who seems incapable of directly answering any question without sidestepping the entire issue. You gotta love ,em

Just out of interest could you tell me when abhisit ever engaged in a political debate - not including all those mass debates he had at Oxford?

[fab4]

Try googling Thai parliamentary system for a starters

No need to change the subject, is less than 50% of 47% of eligible voters a majority or a minority ?

Well we don't know yet, as the results are not known or final - the election hasn't finished yet. That's what the OP is about in case you'd forgotten in your desperate attempts to score "points".

In case you forgot it, even if all the 28 constituencies that weren't able to vote, would vote now 100% PT, they still couldn't get a majority .

Sorry, no points for you.

They could always form a coalition...............................

[JesseFrank]

In case you forgot it, even if all the 28 constituencies that weren't able to vote, would vote now 100% PT, they still couldn't get a majority .

Sorry, no points for you.

They could always form a coalition...............................

Is coalition the new word for Majority ?

Maybe the could form a coalition with the " No vote " party

[rogerdee123]

This headline should read .... "Pheu Thai smells" .... Phew!

[rickirs]

PTP's suspicions are well founded. EC has repeatedly misdirected the administration by its supposed authority only to repudiate any authority for its "suggestions" and "recommendations." Throughout the election process it has allowed obstruction to the electorial process and repeatedly issued conflicting directions. Name a single DECISION by the EC that in any way promoted a quick and dependable electorial process. Even now it claims additional voting dates for those blocked polls cannot now be held because of the PM selections end of March. But guaranteed if the EC is asked by the government to issue such a decision, the EC will tell the administration it should go to the Constitutional Court for a ruling because its not in its authority to do so. The EC has played that song over and over. So again, the PTPO has good cause for their suspicions. The PTP might be better to insist the remaining electorial process go forward, citing compliance with the Constitution.

[kimamey]

the EC are as rotten as you can get. EC should be working on behalf of the people, not Suthep.

When all the dust settles, open a public investigation into the behavior of the EC and bring these sneaky rats to account.

Maybe the EC and the courts need to be reformed to make them less biased. This is what is being asked for by the protesters. They may not all be thinking of the same reforms but that's what needs to be decided.

If the courts are always unfairly penalising the pro Thaksin parties what have they done or planned to do to correct that lack of balance? They've won all the elections for the last 20 years apparently so it's down to them.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[kimamey]

Those who do not trust are not to be trusted, sad but true Read in a popular book once where it was stated that an attractive woman can get away with anything, since there are so many out there who are swayed by a pretty face. I know loads of people who voted for the puppet for this reason only, a person of no political experience, who has never engaged in one political debate, and who seems incapable of directly answering any question without sidestepping the entire issue. You gotta love ,em

Just out of interest could you tell me when abhisit ever engaged in a political debate - not including all those mass debates he had at Oxford?

Didn't he debate whilst he was PM? I think he engaged in debate whilst in opposition and he wanted a debate with Yingluck before the election but she refused.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Mr Yim]

Its mind-boggling to see the level of ignorance about democracy spouted on this thread by Suthep supporters.

Of course, they are fooling no one, except maybe themselves.

They don't care for democracy in the slightest, or justice or truth for that matter. They are exclusively and bone-headedly focused to the exclusion of all else in the pursuit of Thaksin. And because of this, they can't be trusted.

I suspect, their wives tell them what to think.

[JesseFrank]

Its mind-boggling to see the level of ignorance about democracy spouted on this thread by Suthep supporters.

Of course, they are fooling no one, except maybe themselves.

They don't care for democracy in the slightest, or justice or truth for that matter. They are exclusively and bone-headedly focused to the exclusion of all else in the pursuit of Thaksin. And because of this, they can't be trusted.

I suspect, their wives tell them what to think.

Probably because their wives are Thai and have a bit more knowledge of the real political situation in Thailand, than a few red farangs

[Mr Yim]

the EC are as rotten as you can get. EC should be working on behalf of the people, not Suthep.

When all the dust settles, open a public investigation into the behavior of the EC and bring these sneaky rats to account.

Maybe the EC and the courts need to be reformed to make them less biased. This is what is being asked for by the protesters. They may not all be thinking of the same reforms but that's what needs to be decided.

If the courts are always unfairly penalising the pro Thaksin parties what have they done or planned to do to correct that lack of balance? They've won all the elections for the last 20 years apparently so it's down to them.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I fear that if the EC and Judiciary oust the government, the back lash from the red shirts is likely to lead to rapid reforms, whereby all of those sponsors of Suthep and those responsible for the removal of the government will be taking hastily arranged holidays in distant shores.

[Mr Yim]

Its mind-boggling to see the level of ignorance about democracy spouted on this thread by Suthep supporters.

Of course, they are fooling no one, except maybe themselves.

They don't care for democracy in the slightest, or justice or truth for that matter. They are exclusively and bone-headedly focused to the exclusion of all else in the pursuit of Thaksin. And because of this, they can't be trusted.

I suspect, their wives tell them what to think.

Probably because their wives are Thai and have a bit more knowledge of the real political situation in Thailand, than a few red farangs

Of course. I forgot that everyone who supports the government is stupid and everyone who supports Suthep is intelligent. I must be stupid because for the life of me I cannot understand how so called "intelligent" people cannot grasp the basic principle of democracy. The fact that the people vote for the Shiniwatras says everything about the opposition. Better run that one past your wife.

[JesseFrank]

Its mind-boggling to see the level of ignorance about democracy spouted on this thread by Suthep supporters.

Of course, they are fooling no one, except maybe themselves.

They don't care for democracy in the slightest, or justice or truth for that matter. They are exclusively and bone-headedly focused to the exclusion of all else in the pursuit of Thaksin. And because of this, they can't be trusted.

I suspect, their wives tell them what to think.

Probably because their wives are Thai and have a bit more knowledge of the real political situation in Thailand, than a few red farangs

Of course. I forgot that everyone who supports the government is stupid and everyone who supports Suthep is intelligent. I must be stupid because for the life of me I cannot understand how so called "intelligent" people cannot grasp the basic principle of democracy. The fact that the people vote for the Shiniwatras says everything about the opposition. Better run that one past your wife.

Ferdinand Marcos was also carried on hands in the Philippines.

[Mark Thaiford]

Probably because their wives are Thai and have a bit more knowledge of the real political situation in Thailand, than a few red farangs

Some Thais seem to have a love affair with inequality. They seem to think this is the essence of Thai culture. However, if you dig a bit deeper you will see that defending inequality is not based on real values but pure self-interest.

The wives of Farang who are fanatically devoted to Suthep are most likely an upwardly mobile Middle-class Bangkokian. The farang she marries will also sympathise with her love of inequality as he himself is probably someone who has forgotten his roots and thinks his relative wealth is all down to his own "genius". Both the wife and the farang convince each other that inequality is deserved and those less privileged than themselves deserve to live in poverty and whats more they are also unworthy of having the right to vote.

The farang is the one who should be really ashamed of himself. His wealth is not down to his "genius". It is down to the luck of the draw. He is immensely lucky for having been born in a western country where democracy has bestowed a degree of equality and opportunities in life that your average Issan peasant could only dream of until a few decades ago.

But Thailand is changing. Issan people and other non-privileged groups in Thailand are realising that they do not have to accept subservience to the elite as a permanent condition of life. They are realising they can be ambitious and their children can have better opportunities than they did. The Shinawatras did not create these opportunities - they just saw the social changes taking place and decided to take advantage of them to win elections.

The real funny thing is that if/when the elite manage to get rid of the Shinawatras someone else will take their place. The elite will not be able to turn back the clock and recreate their feudal "paradise" unless they institute an absolute dictatorship which would be very out of step with Thai society as it is today.

You Suthep lovers should wake up and just accept the changes. It may mean you have to pay a few extra baht for your Starbucks coffee but put things in perspective - all that the people want is a fair chance at life, something that you have been born with and taken for granted. Stop denying Thai people democracy and a better lifestyle for themselves and their children - your interference in Thai politics is disgraceful.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Mark Thaiford

[Thormaturge]

"They have gone against every opinion the EC ever had even when the EC were trying to be reasonable."

Thanks for that "even when the EC were trying to be reasonable."

The EC is not reasonable, hasn't ever tried to be reasonable with this government, nor is it trying to be reasonable. The EC wouldn't know how to try to be reasonable even if the future of democracy depended on them and it, which, fortunately, it does not.

The EC is a part of the institutional obstructionism and institutional resistance to, of all things, elections, democracy, having an election and conducting a safe election by democratic processes.

It's clear the resistance has basically moved out of the streets and into the institutions established in the 2007 constitution written by the military coup makers. The RS will not accept any kind of institutional coups.

Good on the government for directly and openly calling out the EC on this one.

Yet another one.

And your point seems to be: Any agency (Constitutional Court, Election Commission, anti-gov't protesters, etc.) who are against pheu thai are wrong and should not be listened to. Only if these groups agree with pheu thai, are they considered rational and important ideas. Such a double standard they live by!

" Any agency...who are against pheu thai..."

You and the other guy I quoted seem to have the same foot in mouth problem as is also clearly shown in your full post above.

The independent government agencies reconstituted in the 2007 "reform" constitution written by the coup makers and their shady agents are not independent.

The neutral administrative agencies of the government reconstituted in the 2007 "reform" constitution of the coup makers and their puppet operatives are not neutral.

The systems of checks and balances reconstituted in the 2007 "reform" constitution by the coup makers are designed to check democracy, to obstruct elections and voting, and as you point out are 100% unbalanced against the legitimately elected democratic government, the voters, the people.

Suthep is fast fading and now the anonymous elites behind heavy doors and marble walls are, in empty suits, scrambling into duplicitous and cynical action.

the legitimately elected democratic government

Thought they were a caretaker government myself.

I won't even mention that their 15.74 million populist policy acquired voters have dwindled to post populist policy failure 8 million votes and probably dropping at a rate of a million a week.... oops I mentioned it.

Strange how a certain set of TVF members who were screaming for elections, are now no longer interested in seeing this election completed.

In post number 9 you stated the change Suthep is pressing for would benefit 90% of the population. Where does this figure come from; it is my understanding that the figure is closer to 5%

Here you claim the PT vote to be dwindling at the rate of one million per week. WOW!! Where does this come from?

In reality the PT vote was low because the main opposition party did not stand and many PT voters didn't see the point of turning out. Put Democrat candidates up again and see the level of hatred bring out the remaining PT voters.

[moonao]

Probably because their wives are Thai and have a bit more knowledge of the real political situation in Thailand, than a few red farangs

Some Thais seem to have a love affair with inequality. They seem to think this is the essence of Thai culture. However, if you dig a bit deeper you will see that defending inequality is not based on real values but pure self-interest.

The wives of Farang who are fanatically devoted to Suthep are most likely an upwardly mobile Middle-class Bangkokian. The farang she marries will also sympathise with her love of inequality as he himself is probably someone who has forgotten his roots and thinks his relative wealth is all down to his own "genius". Both the wife and the farang convince each other that inequality is deserved and those less privileged than themselves deserve to live in poverty and whats more they are also unworthy of having the right to vote.

The farang is the one who should be really ashamed of himself. His wealth is not down to his "genius". It is down to the luck of the draw. He is immensely lucky for having been born in a western country where democracy has bestowed a degree of equality and opportunities in life that your average Issan peasant could only dream of until a few decades ago.

But Thailand is changing. Issan people and other non-privileged groups in Thailand are realising that they do not have to accept subservience to the elite as a permanent condition of life. They are realising they can be ambitious and their children can have better opportunities than they did. The Shinawatras did not create these opportunities - they just saw the social changes taking place and decided to take advantage of them to win elections.

The real funny thing is that if/when the elite manage to get rid of the Shinawatras someone else will take their place. The elite will not be able to turn back the clock and recreate their feudal "paradise" unless they institute an absolute dictatorship which would be very out of step with Thai society as it is today.

You Suthep lovers should wake up and just accept the changes. It may mean you have to pay a few extra baht for your Starbucks coffee but put things in perspective - all that the people want is a fair chance at life, something that you have been born with and taken for granted. Stop denying Thai people democracy and a better lifestyle for themselves and their children - your interference in Thai politics is disgraceful.

Spot on.

[Maggusoil]

Time for a big clean up......

And you know, that is the one thing that's not going to happen. Not now, not tomorrow, not in the next few years.

Perhaps it's not bad, this clean-up not happening. Your idea of clean might not be my idea of clean.

It's a process. It's all part of growing up. You can't force change. Change needs to come from within. Only when enough people really want change can a certain change momentum arise.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

You can't see the writing on this wall?

You're not looking hard enough. . .

[robenroute]

You can't see the writing on this wall?

You're not looking hard enough. . .

Perhaps. Perhaps not. People (and more so societies) have a natural aversion against change. On the other hand, once a certain momentum has been created, it's hard to stop...

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[Maggusoil]

You can't see the writing on this wall?

You're not looking hard enough. . .

Perhaps. Perhaps not. People (and more so societies) have a natural aversion against change. On the other hand, once a certain momentum has been created, it's hard to stop...

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

Yes and there is some good momentum in this and its on the streets. Maybe I'm too much of an optimist, but I think Thailand is due for a regime change and for people to take a good hard look at where this democracy is letting them down, and its not just Thailand.

Obviously perhaps Thailand is a more extreme example in a modern so-callled democracy, but rooting the rorting bastards out of government has to happen in a lot of other countries, even the more advanced Class 1 types.