message to Thai hosts: Don't make things uncomfortable for your guests

[klauskunkel]

Pay day by day, and if you don't like what you get, well then leave.

[namdocmai]

Those backpackers just want the most cheap holiday, and if that's in a temple then they will go there.

So they better save more money before the come and book a room in a dorm in Kao San road.

Let them plant/harvest rice on the fields, then you would hear them cry.

[ntg187]

I find this entire topic to be ridiculous. An attempt to alter the venue imo is a fools errand at best and plain ignorant at worst. If you as the tourist do not like the accommodations of the venue then seek out a new venue. Problem solved, problem staying solved, Rangers lead the way.

[wym]

People that pre-book - and pay all up-front for something advertised to them over mass media - and especially for some "roughing it" experience as opposed to those marketed as deluxe - deserve exactly this sort of mistreatment.

Arrive without any pre-made plans, scope things out in person, ask around with your fellow travelers and only then make a commitment.

Or else put in the (much greater amount of) time trying to get an accurate idea from the scammer-filled world of internet review sites and forums.

[Nautilus05]

So you're saying the monastaries don't have plush king sized beds with airconditioning and maid service? I'm shocked...

[Metapod]

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Well, maybe there are some wats at a four-star hotel. With a happy meal. Seriously, meditation is giving up creature comforts, while opening the mind. (Simplistic, I know.) And, you may want to ask these people what it is they expected.

I first turned on to Buddhism when I read the story of the Buddha's life, which included his journey to spiritual enlightenment. I'm also familiar with biographies of many spiritually enlightened beings, including Ramakrisna and Milarepa. Sure, there are challenges for those on a spiritual quest, but it's also a process. They're not required to sit still for 11 hours in lotus position on their first day. More often than not, real spiritual meditation takes place outside of temples/houses, and in natural surroundings. I'm referring to real spiritual insights, not simply physically sitting still for many hours, looking serious - which orthodox Buddhists are adept at. Meditation is, among other things, aimed at gaining spiritual enlightenment. It is not designed for punishment or discomfort (mental or physical).

Ramakrisna once said: "See those monkeys sitting on top of that temple wall? They're all still and quiet with serious countenances, arms folded in their laps. People smile wisely, and say they're meditating. They're not. They're sitting there waiting for bits of food, and at first sight, off they rush to be the first to grab it.

I've found Thais to be fantastic hosts on almost every occasion for me personally.

They have bend over backwards to accommodate me in ways they really didn't need to.

Thanks for stating the obvious. It's like someone saying they saw a crooked cop accepting a bribe - someone like Metapod would pipe up and say; 'How can that be?! I know many cops who aren't corrupt.'

You posted your opinion and experiences and I posted mine. I guess you just wanted a circle-jerk rather than a proper discussion on hospitality in the country.

I'm not the one making sweeping generalizations like a moron, that is you.

[ntg187]

The OP must be one of those 'the customer is always right' kind of people. The customer is not always right but they do have the right to take their business elsewhere, which is something the OP and company should be doing instead of whining. Imagine a world where you can eat, drink, sleep, shit, shower, shave, walk, meditate, and do anything your heart desires anywhere in this world that you can afford to - wouldn't that be something? Problem solved. Problem staying solved. Rangers lead the way!

[iancnx]

This is just another crackpot thread. The Thai's who are the target of the OP's preaching will never read this, therefore he is a troll. Worthless nonsense just trying to stir up a fight in my opinion.

Suggest the OP goes on a personal crusade and visits as many of the places under his scrutiny that he can. Explain to the hosts his feelings. What a complete waste of time.

[mrfaroukh]

Did they send you any invitation letter???

[WitawatWatawit]

Never heard those kinds of complaints before. I think boomer, because of his "tourist related venue", is in a place where these few disgruntled people have congregated to refresh their western materialistic souls after their harrowing native experience. Sorry, boomer, but your thread draws no sympathy for your guests. Next time you hear such stories, tell them to grow up. and you should stop being such a patsy for stories like these. They're not peculiar to Thailand.

[wym]

What a rare and precious thing to find on TV, a consensus!

Whoops I probably jinxed it. . .

What's the word for the opposite of a troll, someone who purposefully posts topics that he knows everyone's going to cluster around the same POV?

If all threads were like this it would be too boring 8-)

[bigbamboo]

&lt;deleted&gt; It's SUPPOSED to be uncomfortable, comfort is the enemy of enlightenment. .

Ahh yes, but is it enlightenment or is it a tick box experience so many travelers seek?

You know what they say...... no pain, no gain.

And considering some of the stories we hear about naughty monks those girls mentioned in the OP might consider themselves fortunate they were only expected to adopt the lotus position.

[onni4me]

There are meditation circles and other trendy things for those that don't actually or cannot actually deal with what life is truly like.

As for complaints about food at homestays, they should be traveling. I am certain that the family gave their best and if that isn't good enough then those people complaining should just go eat some fast food crap.

I personally am not impressed with bed bugs or mosquitoes or whatever pests there are. I have been exposed to this kind of thing once at Samed island resort and once in some 'national park' between Lampang and Chiang Mai. Samed I couldn't sleep due to bed bugs and at the hill resort I thought that I would be sucked bloodless by those huge mossies.

Both experiences really didn't make me feel that I like to spend any time in such places. When confronting the staff at the resort they just smirked and didn't seem to care less so I naturally left them with their bugs. The nature resort had a big sign that some poor German (?) engineer had died there due to malaria a century ago building the railway tunnel through the mountain/hills. I was not convinced that malaria was not present, though.

This topic is more about temple stays and home stays but as i am getting older and suffered a painstaking car crash a decade ago, I would not tempt my faith trying to sleep on hard floor or willingly make my broken back suffer more than necessary. Just a couple hours drive by car is enough to make me unable to jump out of the vehicle. I dare to think what an uncomfortable sleep on concrete floor would do to me. I reckon I wouldn't be interested or able to receive enlightenment that way.

I find it curious that every topic gets comments that say to take whatever comes and suffering makes us stronger. I very much doubt that a diarrhea, vomiting, aching back or malaria or dengue fewer would make anyone more open to any culture.

I have lots of experience showing that some Thais really don't care how a customer or guest feels like and some that have been very good hosts.

When it comes to Buddhism, I have no reason try to become Buddhist. When Dalai Lama was asked how an European Christian could become Buddhist, he answered that the best thing one could do is to stay as an European Christian since becoming a true Buddhist requires a person to be born as one.

My thoughts exactly.

[wym]

Great post

I personally am not impressed with bed bugs or mosquitoes or whatever pests there are. I have been exposed to this kind of thing once at Samed island resort and once in some 'national park' between Lampang and Chiang Mai. Samed I couldn't sleep due to bed bugs and at the hill resort I thought that I would be sucked bloodless by those huge mossies.

Both experiences really didn't make me feel that I like to spend any time in such places. When confronting the staff at the resort they just smirked and didn't seem to care less so I naturally left them with their bugs. The nature resort had a big sign that some poor German (?) engineer had died there due to malaria a century ago building the railway tunnel through the mountain/hills. I was not convinced that malaria was not present, though.

This topic is more about temple stays and home stays but as i am getting older and suffered a painstaking car crash a decade ago, I would not tempt my faith trying to sleep on hard floor or willingly make my broken back suffer more than necessary. Just a couple hours drive by car is enough to make me unable to jump out of the vehicle. I dare to think what an uncomfortable sleep on concrete floor would do to me. I reckon I wouldn't be interested or able to receive enlightenment that way.

And I'm sure you're smart enough to realize given your fragile health that you wouldn't book and prepay for a "roughing it" experience from the other side of the world.

The OP was talking about backpacker types those looking for "authentic native" and "adventure" style travel experiences rather than the usual comfort-oriented tourist accommodation.

Bottom line message is check it out before you check in, pay day by day, if you don't like it go elsewhere.

Rather than expecting deluxe conditions as standard in third-world conditions. What we consider acceptable is actually quite exceptional here, takes intelligence, hard work, well documented process controls and high levels of training to achieve.

I find it curious that every topic gets comments that say to take whatever comes and suffering makes us stronger. I very much doubt that a diarrhea, vomiting, aching back or malaria or dengue fewer would make anyone more open to any culture.

No one claims that, and liking the culture is besides the point.

My goal with those types of comments is to make people realize that such things do happen regularly in this part of the world, and to the extent they happen more to first-worlders than they do to the locals is - in some cases - due to a deficiency of OUR culture, in shielding our immune systems to the point that we don't have strong resistance anymore. Just like the argument about guns, germs often don't cause disease, weak immunity comes from over-concern about sterility.

Plus just the act of spending time and energy worrying about dangers that are statistically very unlikely is in itself very unhealthy, not just on our peace of mind but sometimes actually causing illness - germophobia and hypochondria are serious conditions and very prevalent.

When it comes to Buddhism, I have no reason try to become Buddhist. When Dalai Lama was asked how an European Christian could become Buddhist, he answered that the best thing one could do is to stay as an European Christian since becoming a true Buddhist requires a person to be born as one.

I wouldn't go that far, but I do agree that if you already have exposure or even practical training in spiritual traditions native to the culture you're raised in, there is much of value, even "ultimate truths" buried in every religion, so starting from scratch with a completely new one will make the path that much longer and harder.

People who dabble and jump from one path to the other won't make serious progress, they're just dilettantes, spiritual tourists in a larger sense than the backpackers complaining about discomfort.

[sdanielmcev]

You really have to wonder if people did any research before coming to Thailand.

[onni4me]

And I'm sure you're smart enough to realize given your fragile health that you wouldn't book and prepay for a "roughing it" experience from the other side of the world.

Why would anyone? except of course those who like to talk and brag about it later to their friends and anyone who wants to listen about "roughing it"? My health is not fragile, my back is.

The OP was talking about backpacker types those looking for "authentic native" and "adventure" style travel experiences rather than the usual comfort-oriented tourist accommodation.

I see that as a delusional way to find anything of value. Buddhism is a philosophy, not some sort of self-torture. Read a book and travel deeper, don't just cover an area without no depth or knowledge.

Rather than expecting deluxe conditions as standard in third-world conditions.

Deluxe is hardly a comfortable bed without bedbugs or pests or mosquitoes?

Plus just the act of spending time and energy worrying about dangers that are statistically very unlikely is in itself very unhealthy, not just on our peace of mind but sometimes actually causing illness - germophobia and hypochondria are serious conditions and very prevalent.

How about me getting sick of dengue fewer? That was quite many years ago and certainly nothing to do with germophobia and hypochondria. It maybe statistically very unlikely but when it hits you I can guarantee you don't want to become that statistics.

[wym]

And I'm sure you're smart enough to realize given your fragile health that you wouldn't book and prepay for a "roughing it" experience from the other side of the world.

Why would anyone? except of course those who like to talk and brag about it later to their friends and anyone who wants to listen about "roughing it"?

Exactly, and that is the root-cause mistake made by the people whose complaints the OP was addressing, falsely trying to state that all tourist facilities "should" strive come up to international standards even monasteries and home-stay!

Rather than expecting deluxe conditions as standard in third-world conditions.

Deluxe is hardly a comfortable bed without bedbugs or pests or mosquitoes?

Yes in some contexts that's way too much to expect, and I've probably lived in those sorts of conditions quite happily for more than say 20% of my time traveling around Thailand, not a problem for many.

At a formal hotel charging more than say B1000 per night then sure go ahead and complain if you like - but the other important point is, it's probably more conducive to your happy holiday if you're in a position to check it out in person before you commit, and if it turns out to be below your standards, to be then able to just up and leave.

Again, root-cause mistake: too many people book from afar or even pre-pay for multiple nights when it's totally unnecessary.

Edited February 21, 2014 by wym

[wym]

How about me getting sick of dengue fewer?

I believe I was careful to qualify my (I think still important) point with "often" and "most". There are of course exceptions, they don't refute the larger point.

And most of all I want to say - comfort is not the highest value in life, and focusing on that above other considerations can certainly prevent one from enjoying it to the fullest.

This is particularly true with travel off the beaten track in later-developing countries.

[wym]

I see that as a delusional way to find anything of value. Buddhism is a philosophy, not some sort of self-torture. Read a book and travel deeper, don't just cover an area without no depth or knowledge.

I hope you aren't referring to the need to experience, physically learn and practice in order to make progress in meditation. Intellectual understanding is a very small part of any valid praxis.

Man learns through experience, and the spiritual path is full of different kinds of experiences. He will encounter many difficulties and obstacles, and they are the very experiences he needs.

-- Sai Baba

Wisdom is always tastein both Latin and Hebrew, the word for wisdom comes from the word for tasteso it's something to taste, not something to theorize about. "Taste and see that God is good," the psalm says; and that's wisdom: tasting life. No one can do it for us. The mystical tradition is very much a Sophia tradition. It is about tasting and trusting experience, before institution or dogma.

-- Matthew Fox

[bina]

umm. no. my name means 'wisdom' in hebrew. and its actually aramaic. and has nothing to do with taste. the word for taste in hebew is litom and the l and the m are the root letters for many other words, none of which have anything to do with wisdom.

bina

[wym]

maybe Fox was talking about this word:

http://books.google.com/books?id=uUpAAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=hebrew+wisdom+taste&source=bl&ots=NfM6HliLNW&sig=AgXuuPyYmXrqUeL6VijP4NNzoQI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uq8HU_WXIcj_0gGWwYDICg&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=hebrew%20wisdom%20taste&f=false

I believe the Latin word Fox refers to is sapere, meaning both to taste and to be wise

The main point was not the etymology of ancient languages, but the fact that reading about meditation is like reading sex manuals or cookbooks, you have to do it to really become proficient.

[BudRight]

There are wats that cater to foreigners and know the limits of the new comers and try to accommodate them and slowly build them up to the more intensive sessions. The 'visitors' should research this and find more suitable wats. Chiang Mai has some well renowned wats that do this.

The above response is the only reasonable response, thus far, to my OP.

I'll try to address some of the 'bending-over-backwards-trying-to-justify-Thai-rudeness' responses.

>>> spiritual attainment doesn't require being achingly uncomfortable. I would describe some personal experiences, but responders would founder around trying to poke holes in them - or perhaps call me boastful (no one is supposed to mention their personal spiritual insights, are they?).

>>> I don't know which forum Thai hosts read, so I thought to post my thoughts on the one forum I use. Perhaps some people reading this - have Thai acquaintances who offer a venue for tourists. If so, you might mention to those people: 'Please don't make visitors' suffer unnecessarily'

>>> I do have a tourist-related venue in Thailand, and I've provided accommodation for hundreds of travelers over the years (no, it's not a g.h. or a hotel). I never compel anyone to do anything they don't want to do. I never cause harm or annoyance to any visitors. I strive to make each visitor's visit as pleasant as reasonably possible, even if we're working or meditating together.

The 3 examples I mentioned in my OP are just the tip of the iceberg of the markedly uncomfortable venues served up to (mostly young) farang visitors to Thailand. I didn't mention rip-offs or bodily harm - as that's fodder for other topics. I'm referring to scenarios which enforce uncomfortable conditions on others.

"The above response is the only reasonable response, thus far, to my OP.

I'll try to address some of the 'bending-over-backwards-trying-to-justify-Thai-rudeness' responses."

In other words you were hoping that aiming this message at a forum noted for Thai bashing would garner you a bunch of support for your whining because you just want to rant and hear Hallelujah! Amen! following your pointless moaning.

Presumably the only truly "reasonable response" would be to agree with you,

Another worthless post from the king of the anti-racist racists.

[harrry]

I hear there is one tourist facility near Chiangrai that people are constantly getting disturbed by loud speakers at all hours of the day and night. Theey also have a tendancy to have a shovel shoved into their hand and then sent to build a path round a mountain. Must be a terrible experience for the unsuspecting tourists.

[donbattles]

The back packing hippies love to help do work at the Wat as they get to share in the left over food. They can also sleep free there.

[onni4me]

The main point was not the etymology of ancient languages, but the fact that reading about meditation is like reading sex manuals or cookbooks, you have to do it to really become proficient.

I was not referring to meditation - not to sex or cookbooks. The word I used was Buddhism and it is philosophy by it's nature. How to live a good life. Same as i consider The Bible. It has it's merits but reading it like you will become the Jesus himself will only make one crazy.

Buddha himself wanted no worship or statues made of him. He said that anyone should not do what he did but instead find their own way to enlightenment. And this was exact my point, no need to make ridiculous practices in the middle of the nocturnal hours. No need to make ones life uncomfortable. The sleep deprivation and other things like doing things in groups are making people more susceptible to all kind of nonsense. Adolf Hitler used this mass psychosis in his speeches. Lots of people in the late evening can accept more easily what a person says rather than talking to them privately.

I have my own methods of meditation, I dream and I solve my own problems accordingly. I don't believe in BS from any religious people. As seen in LOS, they tend to fill their pockets first and worry about Lord Buddha later. One very popular monk in television has set a price for a handshake...namely 5 million Baht. Drives a merc and lives in luxury and you say that one should maybe give up some comforts when seeking the true light... As long as there are such people, I will not believe anything they say.

What comes to this topic, I believe that a good way for hosts is to prepare to accommodate their visitors in a way that they are customed to. Just being polite and giving them a nice start while adjusting to new environment. I believe that backpackers are young and naive lot mostly and while they seem to 'like' to sleep on concrete floors, I definately won't.

[seajae]

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Well, maybe there are some wats at a four-star hotel. With a happy meal. Seriously, meditation is giving up creature comforts, while opening the mind. (Simplistic, I know.) And, you may want to ask these people what it is they expected.

I first turned on to Buddhism when I read the story of the Buddha's life, which included his journey to spiritual enlightenment. I'm also familiar with biographies of many spiritually enlightened beings, including Ramakrisna and Milarepa. Sure, there are challenges for those on a spiritual quest, but it's also a process. They're not required to sit still for 11 hours in lotus position on their first day. More often than not, real spiritual meditation takes place outside of temples/houses, and in natural surroundings. I'm referring to real spiritual insights, not simply physically sitting still for many hours, looking serious - which orthodox Buddhists are adept at. Meditation is, among other things, aimed at gaining spiritual enlightenment. It is not designed for punishment or discomfort (mental or physical).

Ramakrisna once said: "See those monkeys sitting on top of that temple wall? They're all still and quiet with serious countenances, arms folded in their laps. People smile wisely, and say they're meditating. They're not. They're sitting there waiting for bits of food, and at first sight, off they rush to be the first to grab it.

I've found Thais to be fantastic hosts on almost every occasion for me personally.

They have bend over backwards to accommodate me in ways they really didn't need to.

Thanks for stating the obvious. It's like someone saying they saw a crooked cop accepting a bribe - someone like Metapod would pipe up and say; 'How can that be?! I know many cops who aren't corrupt.'

is that the story with monkey and piggy

[Robininbkk]

Funny to see people responding seiously, without humor. I think the OP was supossed to be light-hearted and just making fun of the teenage/young backpackers whom has first time experiences at temples or so called homestays in rural homes.

[wym]

No, he was serious believe it or not, or trolling

[anotheruser]

Maybe you should alert Farang coming to Thailand not do indulge in such things if they are seeking comfort?

[boomerangutang]

Interesting bunch of responses. Actually, there's a correlation between military 'boot camp' and Thai-style Buddhist retreats. The idea being; badger the novice 'seeker' with sleep-deprivation and privations, while hammering away at whatever preconceived notions of character that person had when entering the premises. When the novice is sufficiently sleep-deprived and uncomfortable, then re-mold that person in the image of soldier or monk - whatever the drill sergeant or head monk deems appropriate.

Note; in the case of the two young farang women who had no prior exposure to long-term meditation strictures: They had heard the venue was pleasant. They traveled a long distance to get there, and had high expectations of an enjoyable stay. they paid money and the first full day there, were required to sit still in lotus position for 11 hours with no breaks. Granted, I don't know who the hosts are. Even if I could approach them to suggest they lighten up their stoic approach, it would accomplish nothing. Anything I say would offend them, and probably provoke anger. It might even compel them to change the regimen they dole out: to 16 hour sitting meditations ("that will show those softie farang!")