Missing Malaysia Airlines jet carrying 239 triggers Southeast Asia search

[slipperylobster]

I just read one hopeful discovery, and then another. Dang, if this should happen again to be a false start.

[catterwell]

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: US underwater drone takes over search

With no pings in several days from what could be the black boxes of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370, the US Navy has launched the Bluefin-21 sub, which was designed in Quincy, Mass

How many Bluefins are they deploying?

Only one.

How many do they have?

[chuckd]

Mini-sub aborts first search for MH370

April 15, 2014 8:05 am

SYDNEY - A mini-sub hunting for Malaysian jet MH370 aborted its first search of the remote Indian Ocean seabed after just six hours because the water was deeper than its operating limits, officials said Tuesday.

The unmanned submarine loaded with sonar to map the ocean floor deployed Monday night from the Australian ship Ocean Shield which has spearheaded the hunt for the Boeing 777 that vanished on March 8.

"After completing around six hours of its mission, Bluefin-21 exceeded its operating depth limit of 4,500 metres and its built in safety feature returned it to the surface," JACC said, without detailing the exact depth of operations.

"The six hours of data gathered by the Autonomous Underwater Vehicle is currently being extracted and analysed," JACC said.

The AUV had been due to spend up to 16 hours collecting data.

AFP / source: Nation

Has anyone heard of any action being undertaken to bring in an AUV/ROV which is capable of going to a depth of more than 4500 meters. The 'plain' where the search is being undertaken apparently varies in depth from 4,000 meters to 5,300 meters, although I surmise that depth knowledge and mapping of this area is far from complete.

I find it rather disappointing that Bluefin was found to be inadequate so early in it's efforts. It was scanning guided by "distance above the ocean floor", when it automatically de-deployed because it was going below its depth capability ( 4,500 meters). I suppose they can continue with Bluefin and leave out the areas that are too deep - perhaps later map and scan those deep areas with HMS Echo's sonar.

It leaves one wondering "what now ?"

According to an interview I watched between CNN and a USN Captain, the Bluefin was calibrated to operate within a range of 4100 to 4300 meters.

When it hit more than that depth in the ocean floor they had to retrieve it and will recalibrate it to operate at a lower depth

[Tywais]

Mini-sub dives again after aborting first MH370 search

Perth (Australia) (AFP) - A mini-sub hunting for Malaysian jet MH370 was Tuesday set for a second sweep of the remote Indian Ocean seabed, after aborting its first search when it encountered water deeper than its operating limits.

The unmanned submarine loaded with sonar deployed Monday night from the Australian ship Ocean Shield which has spearheaded the hunt for the Boeing 777 that vanished on March 8.

"After completing around six hours of its mission, Bluefin-21 exceeded its operating depth limit of 4,500 metres (15,000 feet) and its built in safety feature returned it to the surface," Australia's Joint Agency Coordination Centre said.

"The six hours of data gathered by the Autonomous Underwater Vehicle is currently being extracted and analysed," JACC said.

The AUV had been due to spend 16 hours collecting data.

US Navy Captain Mark Matthews said the vehicle had exceeded programmed operational limits and automatically resurfaced.

"In this case the vehicle's programmed to fly 30 metres over the floor of the ocean to get a good mapping of what's beneath," he told CNN from Perth.

Charts had put the depth at 4,200-4,400 metres, he said.

"It went to 4,500 metres and once it hit that max depth, it said this is deeper than I'm programmed to be, so it aborted the mission."

- Search zone adjusted -

Matthews, a search and recovery expert, said the crew would now refine the task to cope with the depth encountered.

View gallery

Operators aboard ADF Ocean Shield move Bluefin-21 into position for deployment in the search for MH3 …

"It happened in the very far corner of the area it's searching. So they are just shifting the search box a little bit away from that deep water."

The US navy's AUV Bluefin-21 would embark on a second mission during the day, weather permitting, JACC said.

Agency chief Angus Houston announced Monday the end of more than three weeks of listening for signals from the plane's black boxes and the launch of submarine operations.

The vehicle would survey the silty ocean floor for 16 hours at a time to gather a maximum amount of data, he said.

"Bluefin-21 is planned to redeploy later today when weather conditions permit," JACC added Tuesday.

Read more - news.yahoo

[Tywais]

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: US underwater drone takes over search

With no pings in several days from what could be the black boxes of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370, the US Navy has launched the Bluefin-21 sub, which was designed in Quincy, Mass

How many Bluefins are they deploying?

Only one.

How many do they have?

Can't find any information of how many total the US navy has but they can't operate more than one at a time due to the active side scan sonar and interference between two systems.

[tigermonkey]

I just read one hopeful discovery, and then another. Dang, if this should happen again to be a false start.

Would you mind sharing your news with the rest of us

[khaosai]

wprime,

You're talking in riddles, and the fact that you said that for a fire outside the aircraft you climb to an altitude as high as is safe, and your incorrect use of aviation terminology, shows you have NO knowledge of aviation. A fire cannot be sustained outside the aircraft at altitude. An aircraft levels out at an altitude, not 'steadies'.

The aircraft would only climb on a fixed thrust if the auto throttle was disengaged (you're confusing autopilot and auto throttle), and would only stop climbing if the altitude was set in the FMC way above what it could realistically achieve at the weight, at which time it would descend and climb in an oscillatory pattern. That would also depend on the climb mode selected. Pilots don't like disengaging the autothrottle, and many airlines mandate that it not be disengaged, except for training/demonstration purposes, and that's more likely to be done in a simulator. Disengaging the SPD mode is far safer, and still gives minimum speed protection. The B777 that crashed at SFO had the ATP disengaged. If had only had SPD mode disengaged, it wouldn't have crashed.

I recently retired with 20,000+ hours aviation experience, most of it on high performance jets, and I choose not to engage further with somebody who has no idea, but please don't post such rubbish because you do no more than make a fool of yourself.

I don't disagree with anything you said, but for laymen may we clarify a bit? Yes engines lose some power at altitude due to lack of oxygen, but they more than make up for it due to lack of wind resistance on the airframe in the thinner air. Cruising altitude is where they get their best fuel economy.

Yes, of course planes level off after climb or descent, but they begin a round off well before they get there for, if no other reason, to keep the passengers from feeling the change.

Planes burn a lot of fuel during climb out, but more than make it up by cruising in the thin air. Then they get the bonus of the descent when they glide back down with little to no power, but still maintaining speed due to the descent.

Take a lightly loaded Lear jet. It can climb out at 4,000 feet per minute and reach 40,000 feet in 10 minutes. There's a lot of fuel. But if it cruises for an hour, traveling about 600 miles, it will make it up. Then the bonus is that it must begin a descent from about 200 miles out, which is almost free as the descent keeps the speed up without much power.

If the plane starts down at 200 miles out traveling 10 miles per minute and descends at 2,000 feet per minute, it will take it 20 minutes to descend. That's 200 miles of nearly free flight.

The one thing I'm not sure about is that in a Lear, we blasted all the way to the beginning of the round over at nearly full throttle. I don't know what a 777 does.

Cheers

Quite right, engines do lose power due to rare air, but pick up TAS (true air speed), but that's not at the usual cruising altitude, typically, mid 30,000's, to 43,000. The best TAS for fuel burn for most engine/airframe combinations is around 28-30,000'. Thereafter, fuel burn increases, and TAS decreases, but the benefits are generally a smoother ride, and greater groundspeed due to higher upper level winds if flying east. Flying west is generally at lower altitudes.

High fuel burn on climb is just part of the game, it's unavoidable if you want to get to altitude as you must.

Descent is almost free as you say, and if you spend 30 minutes climbing, and 20 minutes descending, it does reduce the . If you were burning 20-25 tonnes an hour on climb, that would be 12-12.5 tonnes on climb, and then on descent, it would only be about 2 tonnes per hour, so about 700 Kg (.7 tonne) burnt, a total for 50 minutes of about 13 tonnes (15.6/hr), still more than cruise of 10 tonnes per hour by 50+%, but much better than cruising lower. The fuel burn at low altitude in a jet makes the company accountant's eyes water.

Tallking Lears, I recall reading about Bill Lear's personal aircraft many years ago, and it could climb at 12,000 fpm!! Many years ago I flew a 737/500 with 24,000 lb thrust engines, and one of the airports we operated out of required a 270 degree turn from 500'. We could set heading over the top of the field coming out of the turn at 12000, fully load of pax, but not max weight, a climb rate of 8000 fpm!!

Back to the search. The hard work is just beginning and even with a search area of 40,000 sq kms, (200 X 200 kms) it could take a long time, if in fact they have reliably narrowed it down to that zone. It would seem that the oil slick may be a good lead though if it's proven to be from MH370, and is still leaking. If it's just drifiting, it could be worthless.

The headline on the aircraft being flown like a fighter seemed a bit sensationalist, and typical of the press. Flying low isn't flying like a fighter because they typically operate at altitude, and it still wouldn't avoid radar if manoeuvering in tight turns etc.

Hi,

All good stuff.

Best TAS on the B777 is at approx 30000ft. Fuel burn on climb will be in the region of 5 to 6 tons depending on model and weight and takes from 15 mins to 30 mins, again depending on weight and model.

Fuel used on descent is such a variable, but generally in the region of 700kg to 1000kg.

[tigermonkey]

Only one.

How many Bluefins are they deploying?

How many do they have?

Can't find any information of how many total the US navy has but they can't operate more than one at a time due to the active side scan sonar and interference between two systems.

There is an interesting Q & A section concerning Bluefin and the TPL25. US Navy does not own either but leases them through Phoenix International. I have found no information about whether there is more than one Bluefin, either in the US Navy or elsewhere.

Info is here : .http://www.navsea.navy.mil/SitePages/TPL25_bluefin21_faq.aspx

Certainly the operation of additional side-scan sonar close by would cause considerable interference. No idea how far away you would need to be not to cause interference, or whether you might be able to operate two close to each other using different frequencies ( although I doubt it).

Edited April 15, 2014 by tigermonkey

[boomerangutang]

This search reminds me of the troubles of dealing with Russia's Kursk submarine, which sunk several years ago near the Arctic Circle. It took European equipment to get the job done. In this case, it's doubtful the Malaysians or the Chinese have what's needed. Revert to farang technology.

[Carmine6]

This search reminds me of the troubles of dealing with Russia's Kursk submarine, which sunk several years ago near the Arctic Circle. It took European equipment to get the job done. In this case, it's doubtful the Malaysians or the Chinese have what's needed. Revert to farang technology.

Based on the graphic someone linked to that showed the depths involved, the depth here was deeper than the submersible Alvin could go. Now Alvin is old and manned, but that still probably means there's not many submersibles in the world that could go down there. Even fewer than can actually cover lots of area in a given time.

One crazy thing I remember about the Kursk incident is the water was shallow enough that if the Kursk was standing on end, it would have stuck out of the water.

[catterwell]

Only one.

How many Bluefins are they deploying?

How many do they have?

Can't find any information of how many total the US navy has but they can't operate more than one at a time due to the active side scan sonar and interference between two systems.

There is an interesting Q & A section concerning Bluefin and the TPL25. US Navy does not own either but leases them through Phoenix International. I have found no information about whether there is more than one Bluefin, either in the US Navy or elsewhere.

Info is here : .http://www.navsea.navy.mil/SitePages/TPL25_bluefin21_faq.aspx

Certainly the operation of additional side-scan sonar close by would cause considerable interference. No idea how far away you would need to be not to cause interference, or whether you might be able to operate two close to each other using different frequencies ( although I doubt it).

Thanks, there's also a bit more information at http://www.bluefinrobotics.com/products/bluefin-21/

[F4UCorsair]

khaosai said,

"Best TAS on the B777 is at approx 30000ft. Fuel burn on climb will be in the region of 5 to 6 tons depending on model and weight and takes from 15 mins to 30 mins, again depending on weight and model.

Fuel used on descent is such a variable, but generally in the region of 700kg to 1000kg. "

Sorry khaosai, I should have clarified. I was talking 747, not 777 figures. I didn't fly the 777.

[webfact]

Mini-sub on second mission after first MH370 search aborted

PERTH, Australia - A mini-sub searching for missing Flight MH370 was again sweeping the Indian Ocean seabed Wednesday after aborting its first mission, officials said.

The unmanned submarine equipped with sonar gear was deployed Tuesday night after data analysis of the first failed foray drew a blank, Australia’s Joint Agency Coordination Centre said.

After more than three weeks of hunting for black box signals, the autonomous sub had been deployed for the first time on Monday night from the Australian ship Ocean Shield, which has spearheaded the hunt for the Boeing 777 that vanished on March 8 with 239 people aboard.

"The autonomous underwater vehicle was again deployed last night (Tuesday) from ADV (Australian Defence Vessel) Ocean Shield," JACC said.

"The data from Bluefin-21’s first mission has been downloaded and analysed. No objects of interest were found," JACC said.

AFP


-- The Nation 2014-04-16

[zoroastra999]

Remarkably reminiscent of Flight 107 on 'The Twilight Zone':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm9CxxZBR2U

[boomerangutang]

Asians are adept at copying so many things which emerge from Farangland. They've got an Eiffel Tower in China, for Bob's sake. How about their version of the Bermuda Triangle for that SE region of the Indian Ocean where the investigation is centered? What to call it? Malaysia Triangle?

[tigermonkey]

Asians are adept at copying so many things which emerge from Farangland. They've got an Eiffel Tower in China, for Bob's sake. How about their version of the Bermuda Triangle for that SE region of the Indian Ocean where the investigation is centered? What to call it? Malaysia Triangle?

Humans love to copy things, and it's not exclusive to Asians. There are also Eiffel Towers in USA ( 3 of them -one each in Texas, Las Vegas and Tennessee), Russia, Greece, Mexico, Romania. By the way there are 2 in China.in Shenzen and Hangzhou. None of them are full size however.

The Asian version of the Bermuda Triangle already exists -- the Devil's Sea south of Japan.

Sorry to go off topic - delete if necessary.

Edited April 16, 2014 by tigermonkey

[P45Mustang]

PRC has a submersible certified to 7000 metres apparently.

Note the word certified.

Better leave it to the experts.

[tigermonkey]

PRC has a submersible certified to 7000 metres apparently.

Note the word certified.

Better leave it to the experts.

Please NO !! We have flocks of new 'experts' being dug up by the media every day.

Seriously, it's better to stick with an AUV ( autonomous underwater vehicle) rather than a submersible, which is typically manned, or an ROV ( remotely operated underwater vehicle) with all of its cables. AUV are very flexible, not as weather dependent, and can stay down much longer. Bluefin is fine for now until there is a definite need to go deeper than 4500 meters. If the need arises to go deeper, AFAIK there are 3 options of AUVs which go to 6000 meters.

The time for an ROV will arrive when wreckage is found, and there is a need for finding and retrieving components such as the black boxes

Edited April 16, 2014 by tigermonkey

[davidstipek]

Mini-sub aborts first search for MH370

April 15, 2014 8:05 am

SYDNEY - A mini-sub hunting for Malaysian jet MH370 aborted its first search of the remote Indian Ocean seabed after just six hours because the water was deeper than its operating limits, officials said Tuesday.

The unmanned submarine loaded with sonar to map the ocean floor deployed Monday night from the Australian ship Ocean Shield which has spearheaded the hunt for the Boeing 777 that vanished on March 8.

"After completing around six hours of its mission, Bluefin-21 exceeded its operating depth limit of 4,500 metres and its built in safety feature returned it to the surface," JACC said, without detailing the exact depth of operations.

"The six hours of data gathered by the Autonomous Underwater Vehicle is currently being extracted and analysed," JACC said.

The AUV had been due to spend up to 16 hours collecting data.

AFP / source: Nation

Has anyone heard of any action being undertaken to bring in an AUV/ROV which is capable of going to a depth of more than 4500 meters. The 'plain' where the search is being undertaken apparently varies in depth from 4,000 meters to 5,300 meters, although I surmise that depth knowledge and mapping of this area is far from complete.

I find it rather disappointing that Bluefin was found to be inadequate so early in it's efforts. It was scanning guided by "distance above the ocean floor", when it automatically de-deployed because it was going below its depth capability ( 4,500 meters). I suppose they can continue with Bluefin and leave out the areas that are too deep - perhaps later map and scan those deep areas with HMS Echo's sonar.

It leaves one wondering "what now ?"

According to an interview I watched between CNN and a USN Captain, the Bluefin was calibrated to operate within a range of 4100 to 4300 meters.

When it hit more than that depth in the ocean floor they had to retrieve it and will recalibrate it to operate at a lower depth

I don't seem to get the Logic behind this...

We knew before Bluefin was deployed that it was going to be operating at close to Max Depth... Correct?

Why did they not have already on stand-by the 2nd Sub if Depths turned out as they have...Too Deep!!

Or is this another Delay Tactic... For whatever reason readers, Viewers, Family Members can visualize...?

I think if there was an Olympic Medal or Diamond laden Gold Star for "Most Delays being Implimented without having to complete any Serious Inquiries...." This Ordeal has Won the Highest Possible Award ever conceived!!!

This delay if they haven't yet Ordered Mini Sub (For depth 7000 Meters) will truely insure that to what possible extent Batteries have been insured they are dead.... What Party is requesting this Information? So to argue no need to deploy 2nd Sub? To insure what ever is here (this is just Theory...)is not found... Insuring one one prove this is NOT MH370's final resting place?

Again this is Ideas being Mulled not only by me but others in several other Nations as "Thoughts". God Help us if this is reveiled to have any portion end up being true.

Then again, if by accident something is found it will be sealed from exposure for say...100 years? We in America have had our share of these sealed incidents!!!

I for one would like to see tue closure for the Families affected here, only Decent Result Possible....

[3NUMBAS]

wheres the UK sub with its state of the art underwater sonar ?

keeping a low profile and could do the job quickly

and no doubt a US sub or 2 is floating around as well

[P45Mustang]

PRC has a submersible certified to 7000 metres apparently.

Note the word certified.

Better leave it to the experts.

Please NO !! We have flocks of new 'experts' being dug up by the media every day.

Seriously, it's better to stick with an AUV ( autonomous underwater vehicle) rather than a submersible, which is typically manned, or an ROV ( remotely operated underwater vehicle) with all of its cables. AUV are very flexible, not as weather dependent, and can stay down much longer. Bluefin is fine for now until there is a definite need to go deeper than 4500 meters. If the need arises to go deeper, AFAIK there are 3 options of AUVs which go to 6000 meters.

The time for an ROV will arrive when wreckage is found, and there is a need for finding and retrieving components such as the black boxes

Totally agree with you tigermonkey.

Counterfeit wide bodied jets are risky.

Never mind the quality, feel the width.

[tigermonkey]

JACC Media Release
16 April 2014—pm

The Autonomous Underwater Vehicle, Bluefin-21, was forced to resurface this morning to rectify a technical issue. While on deck, its data was downloaded.

Bluefin-21 was then redeployed and it is currently continuing its underwater search.

Initial analysis of the data downloaded this morning indicates no significant detections.

[P45Mustang]

JACC Media Release

16 April 2014—pm

The Autonomous Underwater Vehicle, Bluefin-21, was forced to resurface this morning to rectify a technical issue. While on deck, its data was downloaded.

Bluefin-21 was then redeployed and it is currently continuing its underwater search.

Initial analysis of the data downloaded this morning indicates no significant detections.

So what's new?

We already knew this. It's been posted previously.

[tigermonkey]

JACC Media Release

16 April 2014—pm

The Autonomous Underwater Vehicle, Bluefin-21, was forced to resurface this morning to rectify a technical issue. While on deck, its data was downloaded.

Bluefin-21 was then redeployed and it is currently continuing its underwater search.

Initial analysis of the data downloaded this morning indicates no significant detections.

So what's new?

We already knew this. It's been posted previously.

Sorry P45M I did not see another posting. I'l look again for the previous post. Do you know the reason for this second time that it has automatically come back up - first time was depth problem, but this time they only said "technical issue" ?

Edited April 16, 2014 by tigermonkey

[Chicog]

The search for Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 deep in the Indian Ocean was again cut short on Wednesday when technical problems forced an underwater drone to surface without finding anything, officials said.

While a massive air and sea search for the missing flight is continuing almost 2,000 km (1,200 miles) off the coast of Perth, hopes have been pinned on the Bluefin-21 autonomous underwater vehicle finding the first concrete sign of the plane in more than six weeks of hunting.

Malaysian authorities have still not ruled out mechanical problems as causing the Boeing 777's disappearance, but say evidence suggests it was deliberately diverted from its scheduled route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.

An unspecified technical problem meant the Bluefin resurfaced early on Wednesday and analysis of the sonar data downloaded showed no significant detections, the Australian agency leading the search said.

It has subsequently been relaunched to continue its search.

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1397651485.html?

[boomerangutang]

wheres the UK sub with its state of the art underwater sonar ?

keeping a low profile and could do the job quickly

and no doubt a US sub or 2 is floating around as well

It's an important search, but not so important that it would necessitate the best of the best. Malaysia is supposed to paying for all the searching, but you know they won't. I'd be surprise if they pay 5%.

There was a well written op-ed in the other Bkk paper today. I don't have the text in front of me, but it mentioned how, in the eagerness to show they're doing some significant things, Chinese officialdom has made some mistakes, or over-statements, if you will. Putting aside the supposed sightings of wreckage in the sea south of Vietnam in the early stages of the search. More significant, were the recent reports, by Chinese searchers, of pings - in a region south of the prime search area. A specialized NZ craft cruised down there to qualify the Chinese reports. After two days, it was found the Chinese-detected pings probably weren't valid. Apparently, they were using a shallow hand-held detector dropped overboard on the end of a wire. The gist of that episode is, the NZ craft was busy for two days in the wrong area, when it could have been much more useful in the primary region - ...during those two days before silence.

[P45Mustang]

So. Malaysian flight to the PRC. And whose left to clear up the mess?

Shame it was a Boeing not a piece of crap.

[WorriedNoodle]

So. Malaysian flight to the PRC. And whose left to clear up the mess?

Shame it was a Boeing not a piece of crap.

Boeing or another piece of crap, a skilled but rogue pilot can just as easily switch off the tracking after saying goodbye to Malaysian airspace, fly to a remote part of the deep blue sea to dump it where he knows it will be hard to find leaving as small a trail as possible.

[P45Mustang]

Yes. This is perfectly true.

But somebody has to prove it.

And it won't be Malaysia or the PRC.

Can the West submit an invoice?

[retell]

Yes. This is perfectly true.

But somebody has to prove it.

And it won't be Malaysia or the PRC.

Can the West submit an invoice?

Submit 555 always what they gonna do with it is another thing