QROPS/Thailand Financial Advisors

[MK12]

I have just had a terrible experience with PPI (Professional Portfolio International- Financial Advisors), who were recommended by a dear friend, who sadly is no more.

My QROPs has been totally mishandled by PPI - they has been exposed me to high risk & major losses due to bad investment strategy.

Any tips on what recourse

I might have against them? Is there any such law in Thailand that I can sue PPI?

In any case, don't touch them with a barge pole if you already not using them! Or if you are, proceed with extreme caution.

[wym]

I wouldn't touch any "advisers" having anything to do with Thailand.

Friends are just as likely to be conned, or they might just be "friends", scam central here.

No recourse anywhere on this situation as I understand it, only outright provable fraud, and here the odds are slim of being able to recover anything, the true scammers plan the end game well ahead of time, and often officials are complicit.

[Tmymaimee]

What type of investments did they invest in? The problem is that so often the investor wants the higher returns without appreciating the added risk involved. You could have claimed an investment in BA or GE in early 2008 was poorly handled yet a longer timeframe would have done very well.

PM if you wish…I have a fair amount of investment experience and could help you out no problem.

[Cosmo88]

I wouldn't touch any "advisers" having anything to do with Thailand.

I wouldn't touch any "advisers" period.

[mrtoad]

The problem with a lot of these advisors is that they are untrained, full if BS, commission hungry retards. I'm sick to death of calls from companies like DeVeere, Infinity, Excel etc, etc. The reputation of most of these sharks in Thailand is in the gutter.

[Soutpeel]

The problem with a lot of these advisors is that they are untrained, full if BS, commission hungry retards. I'm sick to death of calls from companies like DeVeere, Infinity, Excel etc, etc. The reputation of most of these sharks in Thailand is in the gutter.

And if the rumour is true one of TV's esteemed members is the branch/area manager of one of the so called financial advisor companies based in Thailand, so OP be careful of any further advice which may be sent on pm or posted on TV

[mrtoad]

The problem with a lot of these advisors is that they are untrained, full if BS, commission hungry retards. I'm sick to death of calls from companies like DeVeere, Infinity, Excel etc, etc. The reputation of most of these sharks in Thailand is in the gutter.

And if the rumour is true one of TV's esteemed members is the branch/area manager of one of the so called financial advisor companies based in Thailand, so OP be careful of any further advice which may be sent on pm or posted on TV

I'm surprised that said poster hasn't been in here yet offering advice.

[MK12]

Oh dear, so many bad experiences..these guys give financial advice a bad name.

Any tips on who you would use for a QROPS? Assuming someone has them,

[Soutpeel]

Oh dear, so many bad experiences..these guys give financial advice a bad name.

Any tips on who you would use for a QROPS? Assuming someone has them,

As stated before be careful of who you take advice from on TV as regards your financial advice

[wym]

As stated before any advice from ANYONE with ANY link to Thailand is automatically suspect - run the other way.

[HardenedSoul]

The problem with a lot of these advisors is that they are untrained, full if BS, commission hungry retards. I'm sick to death of calls from companies like DeVeere, Infinity, Excel etc, etc. The reputation of most of these sharks in Thailand is in the gutter.

Heard less than stellar reports about QROPS in Thailand too.

None of these pricks has any training and several don't even have work permits.

They're just after commissions and will typically expose your money to high risk assets.

[Thai at Heart]

What type of investments did they invest in? The problem is that so often the investor wants the higher returns without appreciating the added risk involved. You could have claimed an investment in BA or GE in early 2008 was poorly handled yet a longer timeframe would have done very well.

PM if you wishI have a fair amount of investment experience and could help you out no problem.

They invest in which ever one pays the highest commission. They are not regulated and there is no comeback against misselling here.

That is why they are operating here and not in the west.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Thai at Heart

[Gambles]

MK12,

I obviously don't know anything about this particular case (though that doesn't seem to have stopped everyone else here commenting) and it wouldn't be appropriate for me to comment on the specifics anyway but many of the general comments on here are just so far wide of the mark that I can't let them go much even though it would probably be easier to do so.

It's utter nonsense to say that there's no recourse. All financial services activities in Thailand are regulated by the SEC. The SEC has a very clear set of laws and regulations that cover intermediaries and which stand up well to most other standards - these are indexed here: http://www.sec.or.th/EN/MarketProfessionals/Intermediaries/Pages/laws-regulations.aspx

The underlying principles behind this framework are outlined here: http://www.sec.or.th/EN/MarketProfessionals/Intermediaries/Pages/RegulatoryPrinciplesObjectives.aspx

The monitoring procedures are also clearly laid out: http://www.sec.or.th/EN/MarketProfessionals/Intermediaries/Pages/prudential_risk.aspx

The different aspects of enforcement are also clearly indexed: http://www.sec.or.th/EN/Enforcement/Pages/enforcement_search.aspx

There are very clear processes for dispute resolution including the option of an arbitration process.

Personally I'd be pretty certain that Wym's comment about officials is actionable so he or she might be well advised to remove that before it causes himself/herself or the site a problem but I'm not a lawyer (even though I head up a group that includes a law practice) and if the claim about TV and the branch/area manager is in any way wide of the mark that might be dangerous too. I'm not being garrulous, just saying that comments made behind a pseudonym can still land you in trouble if you're not as careful as you should be.

The qualifications required to be certified as an analyst in Thailand include an internationally recognized benchmark (CFA) so it's equally wrong to say that advisors, at least licensed ones, are "untrained...retards". Thailand implemented a commission ban long before the UK or Australia did so comments about that are wide of the mark too and the cold-calling rules are very clear - licensed companies have to maintain "do not call" lists. I can't imagine licensed individuals not having work permits but you can check whether individuals are licensed on the SEC website too http://market.sec.or.th/public/orap/IC01.aspx?lang=en

You have to make up your own mind where to go for advice (I'm certainly not pitching) but the SEC maintains a list of licensed advisory companies: http://capital.sec.or.th/webapp/en/infocenter/intermed/comprofile/resultl_new.php?lic_no=3

So MK12, your situations sounds extremely distressing but apart from the fact that there are strict laws here, that commission-based investment advice can't be promoted in Thailand, that licensed advisors are highly qualified and almost certainly do have work permits, that licensed firms have to maintain "don't call" lists and the fact that the SEC is extremely open and transparent then much of the advice on here is sound - oh and I wouldn't say that all licensed advisors are "retards" either. Standards vary in all industries and even within all advisory practices but I think that your experience sounds very unfortunate indeed. As a first step, I'd always suggested talking to the advisor and to the senior people there to try to see if there's a way to resolve things amicably but if that fails, I don't think many of the comments on here so far can have been much help or comfort to you.

Good luck with this, I hope you can find a preferably amicable resolution,

Paul

[true blue]

nice words by gambles,but 20 years in financial services,which i seen the good, the bad, an the ugly,imho,no matter how many certificates you have and training as well under your belt,the one overall factor in selling is commision,

[wym]

Which is exactly why the only proper way to hire a financial adviser is by the hour, for advice only.

And then use a very low-commission broker to execute your strategy, making sure to ignore any advice they may want to offer.

[MK12]

Has anyone here any names of low cost brokers for qrops funds ?

Or any experience of managing their own QROPS with paying by the hour for financial advice? Any tips here appreciated.

[Gambles]

Licensed investment advisors in Thailand cannot receive commission, they can only work on a fee basis - so it's not just "nice words" it is the status quo - any licensed investment advisor in Thailand has to work on a fee basis.

So just look at the list although I suspect that only a very few handle QROPS so you may not have the whole list to choose from.

[AyG]

Has anyone here any names of low cost brokers for qrops funds ?

Or any experience of managing their own QROPS with paying by the hour for financial advice? Any tips here appreciated.

QROPS costs come in four parts:

(1) The commission paid to an IFA for setting up a QROPS. (You have to go through an IFA - you can't go direct to a QROPS provider.) Charges on a time basis will typically be in the region of GBP 1,000 to 2,000 depending upon how complicated your pension situation is.

(2) The QROPS administrator. I pay a fixed fee of GBP 995/year to my administrator.

(3) The wrap platform. You can usually pick your own wrap manager. Common names here are Cofunds, Transact, Skania. There are different ways of charging. Some don't charge you, but keep the kickback commission from the fund manager. Others charge a fixed percentage and rebate part of the commission. Both methods come out with about the same charges. Note that if you invest in individual equities or ETFs there's no commission to be kicked back, so you'll pay a fixed fee. Cofunds, I believe, doesn't allow equities/ETFs.

(4) Fund manager initial and annual management charges. If you don't work with your IFA on a time basis the IFA will receive ongoing commission from these charges; otherwise you'd normally expect these to be reduced/rebated.

The first three of these costs are pretty much fixed. It's with the fund manager's charges that you can save money:

(1) Go for a platform that charges 0% initial commission on fund purchases, rather than the "usual" 5+%. (Nobody should be paying that much anyway.)

(2) Go for a platform that has negotiated reduced annual management charges with a range of fund managers.

(3) Invest in low cost ETFs for markets where a fund manager is unlikely to add value (e.g. US large caps, bonds).

Learn enough to manage your investments yourself and not be dependent upon a financial advisor for asset allocation. If you're not experienced you can start with a very simple asset allocation model, and then become more sophisticated as you gain experience and confidence.

Finally, make sure you have on-line access to your investments and can trade directly to avoid additional charges from the QROPS administrator. (Transact allows this, Cofunds doesn't.) My QROPS administrator wants GBP 100 per trade if the transaction is routed through them.

[MK12]

Thanks for all the great tips, including the last one. A question, By QROP's administrator do you mean Trustee?

It was not that I had unrealistic expectations, i just

was an unsuspecting victim of what was a risky investment, the more I read of it.

Seems the problems were flagged as early as 2009, a couple

of years prior to my QROPS being set up by PPI.

And the disaster on my QROP's portfolio was LM PF, anyone else here suffer the same fate?

[AyG]

Technically the QROPS administrator isn't the same as the Trustee. The Trustee(s) will often be a board member or two from the administrative company.

By LM PF do you mean the Australian LM Managed Performance Fund? If so, you have my commiserations. Perhaps get 5% back if you're lucky? It really shows that you should do your own investment selection and make sure you really understand what you're buying. I'd even go so far as to completely shun the exotic and the obscure. I worked in the financial industry for many years and have been stung three times:

(1) I invested in a hedge fund and paid an expert to perform due diligence checks for me. The research wasn't worth the paper it was written on. The hedge fund was an out-and-out fraud. I don't expect to see any of that money back. Hedge funds are intentionally obscure. It's "give me the money and I'll perform magic tricks with my special black box". No more hedge funds for me.

(2) I invested in a mutual fund that invested in private equity. Suddenly there were fund redemptions that the fund couldn't meet. It eventually turned out that the investments were grossly overvalued. At the moment it's not clear whether this was fraud or incompetence. I hope to get back about 30-40% of my money. The fund was described as "low risk", so I didn't do as much research as I should have. That said, lots of professional financial advisers were taken in by the marketing, too.

(3) When I was younger (and perhaps more foolish) I invested in a closed-ended company investing in Eastern European shopping malls and the like. Seemed like a good idea at the time, what with the growing middle class in that part of the world. The company closed and left me nursing a large loss. This was really a case of my being too greedy for high returns and taking on too much risk.

These days I stick to much more mainstream investments: equity funds (both open and closed ended), straightforward ETFs and index linked bonds. It won't make me fabulously wealthy, but I'm less likely to end up destitute in the long run.

[MK12]

Thank you for the great tips, all what I normally believe in. I guess there are times in ones life when one rushes things through without heeding ones own best judgment& there is a con man waiting in the wings!

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