Decentralised Thai administration discussed at PDRC forum

[webfact]

Decentralised administration discussed at PDRC forum
Pravit Rojanaphruk
The Nation

Suthep Thaugsuban, leader of the anti-government People

BANGKOK: -- Elected governors with a larger budget for provincial administration was one of the key points brought up at People's Democratic Reform Committee (PDRC) national reform forum yesterday.

Key speaker Prof Charas Suwanmala, a former dean of the Faculty of Political Science at Chulalongkorn University, said that 10 or 15 provinces were ready to shift to the elected governor system and that it could be implemented as soon as a new, non-elected government is put in place.

In his speech, Charas listed the aspects of the new system, which would include a provincial "people's council" that would scrutinise the work of the elected governor and would have the authority to impeach the governor should problems arise. He said the central government would continue to handle foreign policy, national security, military and fiscal policy.

"With decentralisation, the concentration of power and the fight for it would cease. Having a centralised state and a representative democracy are failures. If the central government does not transfer power to local governments, both will go bankrupt in the future," he said.

Charas added that provinces that felt ready to adopt the system of an elected governor should endorse the system through a referendum first.

Pongpayom Wasa-puti, a former Interior Ministry permanent secretary who chaired the forum yesterday, said this was a perfect opportunity to decentralise power in Thailand.

"This is a golden opportunity, the best chance and it won't come again," he said, referring to the possibility of a non-elected government being put in place to run the country for 12 to 18 months as demanded by the PDRC, which hopes to oust the Yingluck Shinawatra administration soon.

Pongpayom added that decentralisation would allow provinces to enjoy greater opportunities, efficiency and a larger budget.

One speaker pointed out that people in provinces such as Pathum Thani and Chon Buri paid higher taxes than the amount allocated to them under the national budget, while a participant said that pushing for decentralisation through a military coup might be the best way forward.

At the beginning of yesterday's forum, PDRC secretary-general Suthep Thaugsuban clarified that decentralisation did not mean secession. "Don't interpret it into something else," he warned.

Yesterday's forum was the third of the six planned to discuss six key issues.

PDRC spokesperson Akanat Promphan said people across the nation "must participate" in the reform process. Though no more than 300 people were present at the forum held in the Lumpini Park's Youth Centre, the PDRC is also eliciting views online and says it will later hold consultations with people across the Kingdom.


-- The Nation 2014-03-15

[Mango Bob]

I couldn't agree more that governors should be elected by the people in the province. But they got to get this people council out of there heads unless they are elected by the people and not appointed by the great leader Suthep.

Edited March 15, 2014 by metisdead
Font reset to default forum font.

[Thailand]

" ----to the elected governor system and that it could be implemented as soon as a new, non-elected government is put in place."

[Riley'sLife]

Of far greater import is the need to amend the current laws relating to defamation. Until a person is able to cite an incident of corruption without fearing the threat of a defamation suit being lodged by the corrupt person, nothing can change.

Imagine a "people's council" member obtaining information about the elected local governor's corruption..... as the law currently stands, making such information public would invite a defamation claim by the governor, which would succeed irrespective of the truth or otherwise of the information.

Until there is a cultural and social climate in Thailand for The Truth to prevail, rather than emphasis on the protection of corrupt individuals, any steps to reduce corruption are futile.

[Tatsujin]

Of far greater import is the need to amend the current laws relating to defamation. Until a person is able to cite an incident of corruption without fearing the threat of a defamation suit being lodged by the corrupt person, nothing can change.

Imagine a "people's council" member obtaining information about the elected local governor's corruption..... as the law currently stands, making such information public would invite a defamation claim by the governor, which would succeed irrespective of the truth or otherwise of the information.

Until there is a cultural and social climate in Thailand for The Truth to prevail, rather than emphasis on the protection of corrupt individuals, any steps to reduce corruption are futile.

Until such time as Thai's learn the difference between right and wrong. and also along the way pick up some morals and integrity, corruption is here to stay in one form or another.

I agree though, the laws and the constitution need a major overhaul alongside true unbiased law enforcement.

[SamMunich]

I like the idea of decentralization in general!

Bring the power back to the people, or at least closer. The nearer power is to the people, the more likely will they take an interest in what is happenig around them... and with them.

Decentralization will not curb corruption, but will make the figures come way down, because the "projects" aren't that super-sized like e.g. under the Shin clan's rule.

[rickirs]

"...a provincial "people's council" that would scrutinise the work of the elected governor and would have the authority to impeach the governor should problems arise."

So Suthep's idea is to decentralize his dictatorship. Now that makes it so much easier for Suthep to govern Thailand using mini-Sutheps.

[fab4]

"Though no more than 300 people were present at the forum held in the Lumpini Park's Youth Centre, the PDRC is also eliciting views online and says it will later hold consultations with people across the Kingdom."

Of course they will, sounds democratic to me .

Edited March 15, 2014 by fab4

[mikemac]

"...a provincial "people's council" that would scrutinise the work of the elected governor and would have the authority to impeach the governor should problems arise."

So Suthep's idea is to decentralize his dictatorship. Now that makes it so much easier for Suthep to govern Thailand using mini-Sutheps.

And when it gets too hot in the kitchen he could move to the Middle East where he is "out of range" and run his mini-Sutheps via Skype. That sounds democratic to me.

[chainarong]

Decentralised management is all very nice until you need to control the money supply with check and balances , not that I don't trust these gentleman, but I would prefer central control on finance, with so many hoops to jump that it will drive the governors crazy , just what it was intended to do , just to let them know that if anybody could be trusted, there wouldn't be as many required and I also have big reservations about why this was proposed . Verdict: open , subject to abuse

[than]

"...a provincial "people's council" that would scrutinise the work of the elected governor and would have the authority to impeach the governor should problems arise."

So Suthep's idea is to decentralize his dictatorship. Now that makes it so much easier for Suthep to govern Thailand using mini-Sutheps.

In a lot of country where decentralization take place some council exist to scrutinize work of local executive.(exemple Lander in Germany, Region in France Autonaumias in Spain).. it's not dictatorship but democracy , perhaps for you European country are dictatorship ?

[SamMunich]

Than wrote:

"...a provincial "people's council" that would scrutinise the work of the elected governor and would have the authority to impeach the governor should problems arise."

So Suthep's idea is to decentralize his dictatorship. Now that makes it so much easier for Suthep to govern Thailand using mini-Sutheps.

In a lot of country where decentralization take place some council exist to scrutinize work of local executive.(exemple Lander in Germany, Region in France Autonaumias in Spain).. it's not dictatorship but democracy , perhaps for you European country are dictatorship ?

Hey, let the red shirts wiggle and squirm at the idea of democracy, they are only used to take orders from higher up or directly from Dubai.

If they had really embraced the idea of democracy, then one of the first things would have been to get rid of their leaders, who feast on the misery of the average red shirt. Remember, when the money was still flowing for the rice pledging? Then the farmers got 30%, the politicians, civil servants, millers and local leaders took the other 70%,- for doing nothing but being in the middle of the money flow.

That's why I not only detest those leaders but wonder, where the red shirts missed out on seing their own advantage versus that of others "leading" them... Like my tag line says...

[northernjohn]

Of far greater import is the need to amend the current laws relating to defamation. Until a person is able to cite an incident of corruption without fearing the threat of a defamation suit being lodged by the corrupt person, nothing can change.

Imagine a "people's council" member obtaining information about the elected local governor's corruption..... as the law currently stands, making such information public would invite a defamation claim by the governor, which would succeed irrespective of the truth or otherwise of the information.

Until there is a cultural and social climate in Thailand for The Truth to prevail, rather than emphasis on the protection of corrupt individuals, any steps to reduce corruption are futile.

Right on the mark

Also I disagree with the

"In his speech, Charas listed the aspects of the new system, which would include a provincial "people's council" that would scrutinise the work of the elected governor and would have the authority to impeach the governor should problems arise."

I feel that would take away from the Governor's power as there will be hard decisions to make and not always pleasing to every one. There should be a system for impeachment but not a set group who maintain the power to get rid of a governor just because they don't like one decision.

On the other hand I would not be adverse to a committee that would follow all the decisions through to see if they are being fairly carried out or just benefiting friends of the Governor or corruption practices were being used. Then call for an open session where the Governor would be allowed to defend himself and all could see what was happening.

[PepperMe]

"...a provincial "people's council" that would scrutinise the work of the elected governor and would have the authority to impeach the governor should problems arise."

So Suthep's idea is to decentralize his dictatorship. Now that makes it so much easier for Suthep to govern Thailand using mini-Sutheps.

How can they be 'mini-Sutheps' if they are elected by the people of the province?

I think you would embarrass yourself a lot less if you stick to posting in threads you understand. You clearly are in way over your head with Thai politics.

[PepperMe]

"Though no more than 300 people were present at the forum held in the Lumpini Park's Youth Centre, the PDRC is also eliciting views online and says it will later hold consultations with people across the Kingdom."

Of course they will, sounds democratic to me .

After reading many of your posts, and having a very good idea of the existing form of democracy you personally support, which is basically no democracy at all. You are not really the person to comment on what is or isn't democratically sounding.

If you had any idea of the true principles of democracy rather than the red, communist, dictatorial and corrupted version... People may accept your posts in a broader sense and not just being supported by the insane red camp on here.

[maxme]

"Though no more than 300 people were present at the forum held in the Lumpini Park's Youth Centre, the PDRC is also eliciting views online and says it will later hold consultations with people across the Kingdom."

Of course they will, sounds democratic to me .

After reading many of your posts, and having a very good idea of the existing form of democracy you personally support, which is basically no democracy at all. You are not really the person to comment on what is or isn't democratically sounding.

If you had any idea of the true principles of democracy rather than the red, communist, dictatorial and corrupted version... People may accept your posts in a broader sense and not just being supported by the insane red camp on here.

OK genius, lay it out for us... How does it work? Oh, and tell us if you base it on your country model or another one. We are all ears.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[fstarbkk]

"...a provincial "people's council" that would scrutinise the work of the elected governor and would have the authority to impeach the governor should problems arise."

So Suthep's idea is to decentralize his dictatorship. Now that makes it so much easier for Suthep to govern Thailand using mini-Sutheps.

In a lot of country where decentralization take place some council exist to scrutinize work of local executive.(exemple Lander in Germany, Region in France Autonaumias in Spain).. it's not dictatorship but democracy , perhaps for you European country are dictatorship ?

If the western countries you mention ARE dictatorships, then I would favor a European dictatorship over the current version of "Thai democracy" anytime!

[DirtFarmer]

Prof Charas Suwanmala, a former dean of the Faculty of Political Science at Chulalongkorn University, said that 10 or 15 provinces were ready to shift to the elected governor system and that it could be implemented as soon as a new, non-elected government is put in place.

well now I guess this is the assumption they are all working under.-.. but... what if... there is no Peoples council and the head of the Senate has to pick the interim PM and new elections are scheduled... which the Dems cannot boycott this time or risk being barred and/or dissolved and lets just say the Dems don't win...what reforms then... I cannot believe the naivety of these people.............. reform is necessary I think we all agree on that... but the plan for reform needs to NOT be predicated on some hand picked group of hoods who want control for a year and a half [sic]

Sutheps stepson/replacement...PDRC spokesperson Akanat Promphan said people across the nation "must participate" in the reform process. Though no more than 300 people were present at the forum held in the Lumpini Park's Youth Centre, the PDRC is also eliciting views online and says it will later hold consultations with people across the Kingdom.. yeah right I will believe that when the Bangkok sky is filled with flying pigs...

Have you seen the bigger piggies
In their starched white shirts
You will find the bigger piggies
Stirring up the dirt
And they always have clean shirts to play around in.

And in their styes with all their backing
They don't care what goes on around
And in their eyes there's something lacking
What they needs a damm good whacking.

- everybody: -
Everywhere there's lots of piggies
Living piggy lives
You can see them out for dinner
With their piggy wives
Clutching forks and knives to eat their bacon.- George Harrison

Edited March 15, 2014 by DirtFarmer

[fab4]

"Though no more than 300 people were present at the forum held in the Lumpini Park's Youth Centre, the PDRC is also eliciting views online and says it will later hold consultations with people across the Kingdom."

Of course they will, sounds democratic to me .

After reading many of your posts, and having a very good idea of the existing form of democracy you personally support, which is basically no democracy at all. You are not really the person to comment on what is or isn't democratically sounding.

If you had any idea of the true principles of democracy rather than the red, communist, dictatorial and corrupted version... People may accept your posts in a broader sense and not just being supported by the insane red camp on here.

You have very forthright opinions of my attitude towards democracy, don't you? In fact you have very forthright opinions on anybody who has the temerity to disagree with you.

And I'm not the one to comment on what is or is not "democratically sounding".

If you say so,

Edited March 15, 2014 by fab4

[fab4]

"Though no more than 300 people were present at the forum held in the Lumpini Park's Youth Centre, the PDRC is also eliciting views online and says it will later hold consultations with people across the Kingdom."

Of course they will, sounds democratic to me .

After reading many of your posts, and having a very good idea of the existing form of democracy you personally support, which is basically no democracy at all. You are not really the person to comment on what is or isn't democratically sounding.

If you had any idea of the true principles of democracy rather than the red, communist, dictatorial and corrupted version... People may accept your posts in a broader sense and not just being supported by the insane red camp on here.

OK genius, lay it out for us... How does it work? Oh, and tell us if you base it on your country model or another one. We are all ears.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

He's already done that, he read about it on the web. Here's an extract of an earlier pepper me post:

"Dictatorship would even be a better than this pathetic system of what you lot call 'democracy'...... now give it a rest, do some reading on the true principles of democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

Come back when you have read it."

Er, right.

Edited March 15, 2014 by fab4

[DavidHouston]

Thailand already has a system which includes a provincial council and a provincial administrator. From Wikipedia;

"Provincial Administration Organization is the largest body of Thailand’s provincial administration; each province has one, except Bangkok. The PAO covers the area of the whole province, set up with an aim to manage and provide public services within its province, helping the works of municipalities and the sub-district administrations; it does so by collaborating with other administrations within the same province to avoid power redundancy and appropriate budget allocation.

Provincial Administrative organization (PAO) consists of two administrations. The first is the administrative body led by the chair of the provincial administrative organization; he or she is responsible for all the administrative affairs of the province. The second is the legislative body where members of the provincial administrative organization issues rules and regulations as well as monitor the management of the provincial organization.

There is only one chair of each provincial administration organization; he or she is elected by the people in the province. The main duty is to monitor and manage the provincial administration organization led by the permanent secretary of the organization who functions as the top executive of the organization. The chair appoints his or her assistants who are not members of the provincial administration council to help him or her running the administrative affairs of the organization. The assistantship serves for four years. Their duties include managing and monitoring of the provincial administrative affairs, making sure that the administration is done in accordance with the provincial acts and regulations and the provincial development plan. Other duties include planning for the development of the province, setting up the annual budget to be submitted to the provincial administrative council, and reporting the performance and expenditures to the provincial administrative council.

Members of the PAO are directly elected by the people; they are elected to a four-year term. Their duties and responsibilities include enacting rules and regulations to be used within a particular province or district such as regulations on petrol and tobacco taxes, monitoring of the administration of the PAO, and monitoring and evaluation of projects’ expenditures. Their roles and responsibilities also include their roles in approving the provincial development plan which is a collection of plans and projects submitted from municipalities and sub-district administration organizations. The plan may entail road construction or other infrastructures. They also take part in approving the province’s annual budget, which is the management of the public money, managing the collected taxes levied from the public; the taxes include property tax and indirect taxes such as trade and business taxes. These collected taxes, in principle, would return for the development of the province or city."

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Thai_Civilization/Political_and_Administrative_Background_of_the_Thai_Society

Perhaps what the PDRC objects to is the fact that this organization and its leadership are elected. Elections seem to be an anathema to the Suthep supporters.

Edited March 15, 2014 by DavidHouston

[Stone Inscription 1]

Everyone knows what has to be done to reform the Thai political system to make it more democratic but it is one of those subjects that is prohibited from debate.

The Suthep conference is avoiding the key issues as it just wants to return to the old days when Thai farmers are told not to think, and not permitted to have any say in how the government ruling them is run.

[pisico]

Thailand already has a system which includes a provincial council and a provincial administrator. From Wikipedia;

"Provincial Administration Organization is the largest body of Thailand’s provincial administration; each province has one, except Bangkok. The PAO covers the area of the whole province, set up with an aim to manage and provide public services within its province, helping the works of municipalities and the sub-district administrations; it does so by collaborating with other administrations within the same province to avoid power redundancy and appropriate budget allocation.

Provincial Administrative organization (PAO) consists of two administrations. The first is the administrative body led by the chair of the provincial administrative organization; he or she is responsible for all the administrative affairs of the province. The second is the legislative body where members of the provincial administrative organization issues rules and regulations as well as monitor the management of the provincial organization.

There is only one chair of each provincial administration organization; he or she is elected by the people in the province. The main duty is to monitor and manage the provincial administration organization led by the permanent secretary of the organization who functions as the top executive of the organization. The chair appoints his or her assistants who are not members of the provincial administration council to help him or her running the administrative affairs of the organization. The assistantship serves for four years. Their duties include managing and monitoring of the provincial administrative affairs, making sure that the administration is done in accordance with the provincial acts and regulations and the provincial development plan. Other duties include planning for the development of the province, setting up the annual budget to be submitted to the provincial administrative council, and reporting the performance and expenditures to the provincial administrative council.

Members of the PAO are directly elected by the people; they are elected to a four-year term. Their duties and responsibilities include enacting rules and regulations to be used within a particular province or district such as regulations on petrol and tobacco taxes, monitoring of the administration of the PAO, and monitoring and evaluation of projects’ expenditures. Their roles and responsibilities also include their roles in approving the provincial development plan which is a collection of plans and projects submitted from municipalities and sub-district administration organizations. The plan may entail road construction or other infrastructures. They also take part in approving the province’s annual budget, which is the management of the public money, managing the collected taxes levied from the public; the taxes include property tax and indirect taxes such as trade and business taxes. These collected taxes, in principle, would return for the development of the province or city."

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Thai_Civilization/Political_and_Administrative_Background_of_the_Thai_Society

Perhaps what the PDRC objects to is the fact that this organization and its leadership are elected. Elections seem to be an anathema to the Suthep supporters.

QUOTE

"Elections seem to be an anathema to the Suthep supporters." ... or to the Ammart party that has not won an election in 20 years... in spite of the money spent to buy garner votes, sane as other parties have done. I also wonder: why they cannot win an election without the army?

[JAG]

Be good to know which 10 to 15 provinces the good professor feels are good to go. I suspect they are ones in which they are sure that their candidate will win, and where they have the requisite"good people" in place to run things in a "peoples council".

I'll bet that the local consultations will be, um, let us say, geographically specific. Can't see Suthep rocking up in Chiang Rai to consult with the locals about his new style of government, at least not without a couple of regiments of infantry in support!

As an afterthought, is it not amazing to find the Dean of a Faculty of Political Science from a leading university so enthusiastically endorsing replacing a democracy (however flawed and nascent) with a corporatist (think Mussolini) dictatorship?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[mikemac]

Be good to know which 10 to 15 provinces the good professor feels are good to go. I suspect they are ones in which they are sure that their candidate will win, and where they have the requisite"good people" in place to run things in a "peoples council".

I'll bet that the local consultations will be, um, let us say, geographically specific. Can't see Suthep rocking up in Chiang Rai to consult with the locals about his new style of government, at least not without a couple of regiments of infantry in support!

As an afterthought, is it not amazing to find the Dean of a Faculty of Political Science from a leading university so enthusiastically endorsing replacing a democracy (however flawed and nascent) with a corporatist (think Mussolini) dictatorship?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Thank you, after reading your amazing comment I now understand why Yingluck does not visit the south to "meet and greet" with her people. They just don't like her down there.

[Thai at Heart]

And what powers are they going to devolve to these governors?

[Siripon]

Corruption in local bodies is a big problem, I read in a survey the number of councillors involved in construction, either directly or through relatives was between 70-80% of the members.

As for village heads, as I mentioned in another thread, the two candidates in my village paid 1000 baht per head and 2000 baht per head for those who came back from Bangkok to vote, thus each candidate paid out over 500,0000 baht for a job that pays less than 10,000 baht a month!

Got to recuperate that investment some way.

[Thai at Heart]

Corruption in local bodies is a big problem, I read in a survey the number of councillors involved in construction, either directly or through relatives was between 70-80% of the members.

As for village heads, as I mentioned in another thread, the two candidates in my village paid 1000 baht per head and 2000 baht per head for those who came back from Bangkok to vote, thus each candidate paid out over 500,0000 baht for a job that pays less than 10,000 baht a month!

Got to recuperate that investment some way.

It just transfers then corruption from MPs to governors.

[ThailandNoob]

Is the army going to crack down on these people for "secession"?

Before you come back with the point that they explicitly stated that they want decentralisation, not separate countries, I would like to point out that the reds did the same thing.

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[maxme]

Be good to know which 10 to 15 provinces the good professor feels are good to go. I suspect they are ones in which they are sure that their candidate will win, and where they have the requisite"good people" in place to run things in a "peoples council".

I'll bet that the local consultations will be, um, let us say, geographically specific. Can't see Suthep rocking up in Chiang Rai to consult with the locals about his new style of government, at least not without a couple of regiments of infantry in support!

As an afterthought, is it not amazing to find the Dean of a Faculty of Political Science from a leading university so enthusiastically endorsing replacing a democracy (however flawed and nascent) with a corporatist (think Mussolini) dictatorship?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Thank you, after reading your amazing comment I now understand why Yingluck does not visit the south to "meet and greet" with her people. They just don't like her down there.

So out of curiosity, where in the south do you live?

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