Prime example of idiocy caught on cam

BSJ · April 2, 2014

I posted about coming off the PCX150 at the roundabout Pattaya Naklua Rd ages ago. Granted I was only doing 30-35 as I turned into Pattaya Nua when we went down....but my helmet never hit the road surface. Guess I was luck!

ALFREDO · April 2, 2014

Just let him make some Training, STILFSER JOCH, Italy- Switzerland !

dave_boo · April 2, 2014

^^

I'm not sure what your argument is- I don't particularly care about the rider's feelings- my point was that I understand getting into a situation where you end up running wide entirely due to your own actions (and if you've been riding years you've almost certainly done it- I have), and I can sympathize with the situation. If you've run wide, this could have happened to you, and that's why I can't condemn the guy, though obviously it was a stupid, unskilled move.

In most cases you get out of this kind of situation unscathed and hopefully with some new knowledge- in this case, it was 'the perfect storm'. It can certainly be 'chalked up as a learning experience' and I doubt this rider will forget it anytime soon.

I think we all feel that motorcycling needs to be treated with respect, but we also have to remember that we were beginners at some point and probably made a few mistakes on the road to (hopefully) becoming skilled, safe riders- remember that some of us suffered greater consequences for equally poor judgement.

Everybody has run wide; the snippet of video shown doesn't really relay the volume of traffic so it's hard for me to say that it was completely idiotic (and riding to the edge of one's abilities on a busy road is idiotic) but it wasn't the smartest thing to do. I'm glad that the rider is alright, more glad that the cagers didn't have an accident with him and hope that he has learned from this mistake. But to candy coat it as anything but stupid does him a disservice. Even when Tony ragged on my downer I never cried about the harshness of his posting (although it got tedious after a while) and his not so subtle critiques helped me develop. Had the tables been flipped and he had been trying to be a compassionate understanding bloke than perhaps I would not have learned from the experience. Had the criticism drove me away from the sport due to my fear that I could not improve than myself and others would have been better off.

JonnyF and I have had many run ins in the past due to differing opinions but I definitely side with him on this. Whether it is due to a 'harder' upbringing, something that can be as dangerous as motorcycling needs to be treated with the utmost respect. I have had my share of accidents; but I am proud of the fact that each and every time the bike has gone down on MY side of the road where it didn't endanger others. Would it have been better not to have those downers? Of course; but I chalk it up to learning...an expensive hurtful (the time I wasn't wearing any protective gear and a car was in my lane) experiences.

I would much rather be banged up badly than to have to live with the knowledge that I killed or maimed another human being due to my negligence/stupidity/whatever. And I'd rather have people be harsh to riders who are capable of putting my family in danger than worry about those same rider's feelings. Life is full of risk, but one must do all they can to reduce that especially when it could affect others.

on a bike, others on the road always endanger your life more than you endanger their lives. no worries dave.

True but....there's always the exceptions.

JonnyF · April 2, 2014

Take it easy RSD, there were plenty of comments I could have made on the other thread if it was bothering me but it wasn't

I just found your logic totally opposite to mine in that I believe in freedom of choice as long as it doesn't affect others. So while I choose to gear up, if others don't then 'up to them, their choice'. When I see idiots like this endangering other people with their stupidity it annoys me. You on the other hand seem to come down very hard on people who don't wear safety gear (and will hurt nobody other than themselves) and then defend this guy who nearly took out a car (potentially a whole family) while riding like an idiot. I just found the contrasting viewpoints interesting, nothing personal.

Not taking sides here but you seem to be mixing up two very different issues.

In the case of this rider, he makes a mistake. As a fellow rider, I "sympathise" with him. I wouldn't say that his riding was reckless, he just bit off more than he could chew, he overestimated his capabilities etc etc but he didn't come across as riding "recklessly" (meaning weaving in and out of traffic, tailgating the vehicle in front etc).

On the other issue, it was about a rider's choice of safety gear - ATGATT or nothing at all or somewhere in between. As (presumably) educated, intelligent and matured adults, I simply cannot understand why anyone would ride a bike on the streets of Thailand without wearing a helmet, at the very least.

How do you know this was his only mistake? Maybe he rides like this all the time and it's the first time it was caught on camera...

Imagine your next Sunday morning ride in Khao Yai you're having a lovely ride with your wife on the back and some guy in a oncoming pickup truck (racing his mates) overcooked a corner and swerved into your lane, smashes head on into you. I can imagine the reaction on this forum if it was caught on camera. Cagers, Thai drivers, lack of responsibility etc.

Assuming you survived, in the unlikely event the driver visits you in hospital I assume your reaction would be "No worries man, don't worry about the wife - we all make mistakes and at least you were smart enough to protect yourself with airbags. You just bit off more than you could chew, I sympathise with you. Done it myself a few years ago actually, all part of the learning process. Can you pass me the iPad on the way out, I need to educate some guy in Nakhon Nowhere who dares to ride his Wave to the 711 at 40 kph in a Big C helmet".

PS at the risk of repeating myself yet again, I gear up before a ride. That doesn't give me the right to endanger other people, or be excused having done so.

RubberSideDown · April 2, 2014

^

You're really pushing a straw man fallacy- I haven't seen anyone post in favor of what this guy did, and no one was injured (except for possibly the rider)- certainly the outcome could have been different, but we can only comment on what actually happened- you're speculating on what could have happened. I think everyone agrees it was a stupid move.

He made a common mistake and paid an uncommon price.

You still haven't answered the question- have you ever run wide? If so, were you fortunate that a car wasn't in the opposite lane at that exact moment? Are you as a rider defined by that moment? Did you learn from your mistake?

Maybe this guy is a complete road hazard- that's also speculation- I'm reacting to the single moment I witnessed in the video- you're creating a possible scenario and reacting to it, rather than dispassionately looking at what happened from your view as an experienced rider. Personally, I see exactly what he did wrong, and hopefully he learned from it and won't do it again.

andreandre · April 2, 2014

Just let him make some Training, STILFSER JOCH, Italy- Switzerland !

I'd pay good money to ride that road....

JonnyF · April 2, 2014

^

You're really pushing a straw man fallacy- I haven't seen anyone post in favor of what this guy did, and no one was injured (except for possibly the rider)- certainly the outcome could have been different, but we can only comment on what actually happened- you're speculating on what could have happened. I think everyone agrees it was a stupid move.

He made a common mistake and paid an uncommon price.

You still haven't answered the question- have you ever run wide? If so, were you fortunate that a car wasn't in the opposite lane at that exact moment? Are you as a rider defined by that moment? Did you learn from your mistake?

Maybe this guy is a complete road hazard- that's also speculation- I'm reacting to the single moment I witnessed in the video- you're creating a possible scenario and reacting to it, rather than dispassionately looking at what happened from your view as an experienced rider. Personally, I see exactly what he did wrong, and hopefully he learned from it and won't do it again.

I've run wide when I can see what's (not) coming. I've run wide on dual carriageways when I can see what's (not) behind me. I've run wide (and crashed) on tracks. I don't recall running wide on blind bends (to the extent that I can't correct it if I need to) on public roads. I'm a big believer in 'The Pace' when riding on public roads and I ride within my limits. But my point is that even if I DID run wide and endanger someone I would expect (and accept) criticism, not be defended and sympathized with because I'm a 'biker' or I was wearing ATGATT.

I don't believe I misrepresented your stance, and it's not a massive leap to imagine that he could have hit that car. Considering an equal and opposite scenario is sometimes a good way to reveal your own bias. So answer me this honestly, if this was posted on some 'cager' website and the roles were reversed and the car had been racing his friends and swerved into the oncoming biker, would you take the same stance in defending the car that could have (but didn't) cause serious injury to the other party? Or would you say the driver was an idiot?

And what do you consider worse, riding with a Big C helmet at 40 kph (endangering yourself) or what this guy did in full gear (endangering yourself as well as innocent bystanders)?

dave_boo · April 2, 2014

Just let him make some Training, STILFSER JOCH, Italy- Switzerland !

I'd pay good money to ride that road....

Was thinking the same thing; I'd imagine cycling up it would be even more rewarding as the view from the top after such an exertion would be wonderful.

andreandre · April 2, 2014

I posted about coming off the PCX150 at the roundabout Pattaya Naklua Rd ages ago. Granted I was only doing 30-35 as I turned into Pattaya Nua when we went down....but my helmet never hit the road surface. Guess I was luck!

Guess I was luck!

Yep. that was just good luck..we all ,without exeption need a bit of it everytime we ride..

RubberSideDown · April 2, 2014

^

You're really pushing a straw man fallacy- I haven't seen anyone post in favor of what this guy did, and no one was injured (except for possibly the rider)- certainly the outcome could have been different, but we can only comment on what actually happened- you're speculating on what could have happened. I think everyone agrees it was a stupid move.

He made a common mistake and paid an uncommon price.

You still haven't answered the question- have you ever run wide? If so, were you fortunate that a car wasn't in the opposite lane at that exact moment? Are you as a rider defined by that moment? Did you learn from your mistake?

Maybe this guy is a complete road hazard- that's also speculation- I'm reacting to the single moment I witnessed in the video- you're creating a possible scenario and reacting to it, rather than dispassionately looking at what happened from your view as an experienced rider. Personally, I see exactly what he did wrong, and hopefully he learned from it and won't do it again.

I've run wide when I can see what's (not) coming. I've run wide on dual carriageways when I can see what's (not) behind me. I've run wide (and crashed) on tracks. I don't recall running wide on blind bends (to the extent that I can't correct it if I need to) on public roads. I'm a big believer in 'The Pace' when riding on public roads and I ride within my limits. But my point is that even if I DID run wide and endanger someone I would expect (and accept) criticism, not be defended and sympathized with because I'm a 'biker' or I was wearing ATGATT.

I don't believe I misrepresented your stance, and it's not a massive leap to imagine that he could have hit that car. Considering an equal and opposite scenario is sometimes a good way to reveal your own bias. So answer me this honestly, if this was posted on some 'cager' website and the roles were reversed and the car had been racing his friends and swerved into the oncoming biker, would you take the same stance in defending the car that could have (but didn't) cause serious injury to the other party? Or would you say the driver was an idiot?

And what do you consider worse, riding with a Big C helmet at 40 kph (endangering yourself) or what this guy did in full gear (endangering yourself as well as innocent bystanders)?

Your speculating again and changing the scenario- of course if an innocent person had gotten hurt I'd look at the situation differently from the perspective of the outcome, but the cause of the initial mistake would not have changed, nor would my view of it- I'd sympathize with both the rider from being able to understand what happened, and for the innocent victim for obvious reasons- the responsibility of the rider would not be obviated by the reasons for the accident, of course.

You're also completely misrepresenting my position, and have since you entered the thread- I have criticized the rider's actions several times- I haven't given him a pass because he's a fellow rider- all I said what that I can completely understand what happened, and that circumstances made the consequences of a common newbie mistake much worse than they ordinarily would be- note my assumption is that he's a newb (which I stated from the beginning), which make the error more understandable- note I also said it's possible he's just an habitually poor rider with more experience. Saying I understand what happened and 'defending' it are two very different things. How many more times would you like me to say it was a stupid move in order to satisfy you? I've already done it three or four times.

As a fellow rider, though, and having once been very inexperienced myself, I have a deeper understanding of what happened here than a non-rider, and thus can make the learned observations I've made on this thread from a perspective that I would expect other riders to be able to grasp- of course this could have ended up much worse- thankfully it didn't, and hopefully this guy got a lesson that will cause him to become a better rider (through training) or perhaps give up riding altogether if that's what's best for him- I could go your route and say that if this hadn't happened, he might have made another, similar mistake later that would have up indeed hurt someone, and maybe the realization he gained from this will prevent that from happening (note I actually find this premise kind of silly, but it's in line with your assumptions from post #64).

If a driver had done the same thing, I would probably look at it more harshly, this is true- the consequences of a large 4000lb vehicle drifting into the opposite lane are potentially considerably worse, and the vast majority of my negative experiences (while riding my bike) on the road have been with four-wheeled vehicles- I also have a bias toward fellow riders and deeper understanding of the dynamics of riding a motorcycle, and, as I said, I understand exactly what happened here, and I know it takes a different and higher skill-set to properly ride a motorcycle- I don't excuse what this rider did, but I sympathize with it, and I'm happy it wasn't worse- I'm not sure what else you expect- if you want me to condemn the guy, you're going to be disappointed.

You're also introducing another fallacy ('What do you consider worse...') as if that somehow strengthens your argument- it doesn't as far as the OP is concerned, and has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and it's just a throwback to an earlier thread where you had an issue with what I posted- we're never going to agree with each other, but I'm not going to bring it up in other non-related threads in which you post in an effort to score points, and I think you're showing poor form here.

Edited April 2, 2014 by RubberSideDown

MAJIC · April 2, 2014

Thats on the Cat and Fiddle near Buxton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_and_Fiddle_Road

Lucky to survive and not doing the image of bikers any good at all.

Happy he didn't hit the car.

If the Rozzers got a hold of that footage he would be done for dangerous driving and banned.

Yeh..makes him even more of a tosser, that he released the footage..[one]... because possibly the rozzers could convict him on this evidence alone and [two]....for releasing it at all showing his stupidity and lack of ability for all to see...

EDIT..thanks for the link soihok...great riding road and now all wrapped in cotton wool because of guys like him...

The rozzers! haven't heard that word since the 70s.

andreandre · April 3, 2014

I posted about coming off the PCX150 at the roundabout Pattaya Naklua Rd ages ago. Granted I was only doing 30-35 as I turned into Pattaya Nua when we went down....but my helmet never hit the road surface. Guess I was luck!

Reminds me about being lucky ..way back i was talking to a girlfriend through her car window and a drugged up pratt in a speeding car took me out big time..sent me flying a full 20 metres down the highway.fractures to both tibial plateaus ,left elbow totally destroyed,both ankles shattered,multiple fractures of left clavical and a small cut lip...my head never hit the road.Guess i was VERY lucky!

Or, more likely my being a fatalist simply means my number wasn't up at that time..

Whatever.... i could very easily have been killed..but wasn't!

JonnyF · April 3, 2014

^

You're really pushing a straw man fallacy- I haven't seen anyone post in favor of what this guy did, and no one was injured (except for possibly the rider)- certainly the outcome could have been different, but we can only comment on what actually happened- you're speculating on what could have happened. I think everyone agrees it was a stupid move.

He made a common mistake and paid an uncommon price.

You still haven't answered the question- have you ever run wide? If so, were you fortunate that a car wasn't in the opposite lane at that exact moment? Are you as a rider defined by that moment? Did you learn from your mistake?

Maybe this guy is a complete road hazard- that's also speculation- I'm reacting to the single moment I witnessed in the video- you're creating a possible scenario and reacting to it, rather than dispassionately looking at what happened from your view as an experienced rider. Personally, I see exactly what he did wrong, and hopefully he learned from it and won't do it again.

I've run wide when I can see what's (not) coming. I've run wide on dual carriageways when I can see what's (not) behind me. I've run wide (and crashed) on tracks. I don't recall running wide on blind bends (to the extent that I can't correct it if I need to) on public roads. I'm a big believer in 'The Pace' when riding on public roads and I ride within my limits. But my point is that even if I DID run wide and endanger someone I would expect (and accept) criticism, not be defended and sympathized with because I'm a 'biker' or I was wearing ATGATT.

I don't believe I misrepresented your stance, and it's not a massive leap to imagine that he could have hit that car. Considering an equal and opposite scenario is sometimes a good way to reveal your own bias. So answer me this honestly, if this was posted on some 'cager' website and the roles were reversed and the car had been racing his friends and swerved into the oncoming biker, would you take the same stance in defending the car that could have (but didn't) cause serious injury to the other party? Or would you say the driver was an idiot?

And what do you consider worse, riding with a Big C helmet at 40 kph (endangering yourself) or what this guy did in full gear (endangering yourself as well as innocent bystanders)?

Your speculating again and changing the scenario- of course if an innocent person had gotten hurt I'd look at the situation differently from the perspective of the outcome, but the cause of the initial mistake would not have changed, nor would my view of it- I'd sympathize with both the rider from being able to understand what happened, and for the innocent victim for obvious reasons- the responsibility of the rider would not be obviated by the reasons for the accident, of course.
You're also completely misrepresenting my position, and have since you entered the thread- I have criticized the rider's actions several times- I haven't given him a pass because he's a fellow rider- all I said what that I can completely understand what happened, and that circumstances made the consequences of a common newbie mistake much worse than they ordinarily would be- note my assumption is that he's a newb (which I stated from the beginning), which make the error more understandable- note I also said it's possible he's just an habitually poor rider with more experience. Saying I understand what happened and 'defending' it are two very different things. How many more times would you like me to say it was a stupid move in order to satisfy you? I've already done it three or four times.

As a fellow rider, though, and having once been very inexperienced myself, I have a deeper understanding of what happened here than a non-rider, and thus can make the learned observations I've made on this thread from a perspective that I would expect other riders to be able to grasp- of course this could have ended up much worse- thankfully it didn't, and hopefully this guy got a lesson that will cause him to become a better rider (through training) or perhaps give up riding altogether if that's what's best for him- I could go your route and say that if this hadn't happened, he might have made another, similar mistake later that would have up indeed hurt someone, and maybe the realization he gained from this will prevent that from happening (note I actually find this premise kind of silly, but it's in line with your assumptions from post #64).

If a driver had done the same thing, I would probably look at it more harshly, this is true- the consequences of a large 4000lb vehicle drifting into the opposite lane are potentially considerably worse, and the vast majority of my negative experiences (while riding my bike) on the road have been with four-wheeled vehicles- I also have a bias toward fellow riders and deeper understanding of the dynamics of riding a motorcycle, and, as I said, I understand exactly what happened here, and I know it takes a different and higher skill-set to properly ride a motorcycle- I don't excuse what this rider did, but I sympathize with it, and I'm happy it wasn't worse- I'm not sure what else you expect- if you want me to condemn the guy, you're going to be disappointed.

You're also introducing another fallacy ('What do you consider worse...') as if that somehow strengthens your argument- it doesn't as far as the OP is concerned, and has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and it's just a throwback to an earlier thread where you had an issue with what I posted- we're never going to agree with each other, but I'm not going to bring it up in other non-related threads in which you post in an effort to score points, and I think you're showing poor form here.

You were pretty quick to condemn the guys who don't gear up so I thought you might have the same stance on this guy. But it seems that if you do (or have done) something dangerous/stupid then you sympathize with others that do the same thing, whereas if you don't engage in that dangerous activity then you bash others that do. Seems a bit hypocritical to me that's all, sorry if it's poor form to point it out.

I suggest we agree to disagree, you continue bashing guys who wear cheap helmets while sympathizing with people who recklessly endanger others, I'll continue to bash guys who recklessly endanger others while completely ignoring people in cheap helmets. Then we're both happy

RubberSideDown · April 3, 2014

^

You're really pushing a straw man fallacy- I haven't seen anyone post in favor of what this guy did, and no one was injured (except for possibly the rider)- certainly the outcome could have been different, but we can only comment on what actually happened- you're speculating on what could have happened. I think everyone agrees it was a stupid move.

He made a common mistake and paid an uncommon price.

You still haven't answered the question- have you ever run wide? If so, were you fortunate that a car wasn't in the opposite lane at that exact moment? Are you as a rider defined by that moment? Did you learn from your mistake?

Maybe this guy is a complete road hazard- that's also speculation- I'm reacting to the single moment I witnessed in the video- you're creating a possible scenario and reacting to it, rather than dispassionately looking at what happened from your view as an experienced rider. Personally, I see exactly what he did wrong, and hopefully he learned from it and won't do it again.

I've run wide when I can see what's (not) coming. I've run wide on dual carriageways when I can see what's (not) behind me. I've run wide (and crashed) on tracks. I don't recall running wide on blind bends (to the extent that I can't correct it if I need to) on public roads. I'm a big believer in 'The Pace' when riding on public roads and I ride within my limits. But my point is that even if I DID run wide and endanger someone I would expect (and accept) criticism, not be defended and sympathized with because I'm a 'biker' or I was wearing ATGATT.

I don't believe I misrepresented your stance, and it's not a massive leap to imagine that he could have hit that car. Considering an equal and opposite scenario is sometimes a good way to reveal your own bias. So answer me this honestly, if this was posted on some 'cager' website and the roles were reversed and the car had been racing his friends and swerved into the oncoming biker, would you take the same stance in defending the car that could have (but didn't) cause serious injury to the other party? Or would you say the driver was an idiot?

And what do you consider worse, riding with a Big C helmet at 40 kph (endangering yourself) or what this guy did in full gear (endangering yourself as well as innocent bystanders)?

Your speculating again and changing the scenario- of course if an innocent person had gotten hurt I'd look at the situation differently from the perspective of the outcome, but the cause of the initial mistake would not have changed, nor would my view of it- I'd sympathize with both the rider from being able to understand what happened, and for the innocent victim for obvious reasons- the responsibility of the rider would not be obviated by the reasons for the accident, of course.
You're also completely misrepresenting my position, and have since you entered the thread- I have criticized the rider's actions several times- I haven't given him a pass because he's a fellow rider- all I said what that I can completely understand what happened, and that circumstances made the consequences of a common newbie mistake much worse than they ordinarily would be- note my assumption is that he's a newb (which I stated from the beginning), which make the error more understandable- note I also said it's possible he's just an habitually poor rider with more experience. Saying I understand what happened and 'defending' it are two very different things. How many more times would you like me to say it was a stupid move in order to satisfy you? I've already done it three or four times.

As a fellow rider, though, and having once been very inexperienced myself, I have a deeper understanding of what happened here than a non-rider, and thus can make the learned observations I've made on this thread from a perspective that I would expect other riders to be able to grasp- of course this could have ended up much worse- thankfully it didn't, and hopefully this guy got a lesson that will cause him to become a better rider (through training) or perhaps give up riding altogether if that's what's best for him- I could go your route and say that if this hadn't happened, he might have made another, similar mistake later that would have up indeed hurt someone, and maybe the realization he gained from this will prevent that from happening (note I actually find this premise kind of silly, but it's in line with your assumptions from post #64).

If a driver had done the same thing, I would probably look at it more harshly, this is true- the consequences of a large 4000lb vehicle drifting into the opposite lane are potentially considerably worse, and the vast majority of my negative experiences (while riding my bike) on the road have been with four-wheeled vehicles- I also have a bias toward fellow riders and deeper understanding of the dynamics of riding a motorcycle, and, as I said, I understand exactly what happened here, and I know it takes a different and higher skill-set to properly ride a motorcycle- I don't excuse what this rider did, but I sympathize with it, and I'm happy it wasn't worse- I'm not sure what else you expect- if you want me to condemn the guy, you're going to be disappointed.

You're also introducing another fallacy ('What do you consider worse...') as if that somehow strengthens your argument- it doesn't as far as the OP is concerned, and has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and it's just a throwback to an earlier thread where you had an issue with what I posted- we're never going to agree with each other, but I'm not going to bring it up in other non-related threads in which you post in an effort to score points, and I think you're showing poor form here.

You were pretty quick to condemn the guys who don't gear up so I thought you might have the same stance on this guy. But it seems that if you do (or have done) something dangerous/stupid then you sympathize with others that do the same thing, whereas if you don't engage in that dangerous activity then you bash others that do. Seems a bit hypocritical to me that's all, sorry if it's poor form to point it out.

I suggest we agree to disagree, you continue bashing guys who wear cheap helmets while sympathizing with people who recklessly endanger others, I'll continue to bash guys who recklessly endanger others while completely ignoring people in cheap helmets. Then we're both happy

I do have a critical stance on the guy in the OP- I'm not sure how that escaped you...

I can understand a newb making an error- I can't understand supposedly experienced riders making incorrect critiques of gear in the face of easily-obtainable evidence to the contrary- I also see a difference between 'condemning' someone and pointing out something I (and you) think is stupid- the difference is that I'll mention it, and you don't care enough to bother (which is fine).

You obviously either didn't read my posts or entirely missed my point if you see 'hypocrisy' in spotting the difference between someone making an error and someone else making conscious choice, but I'll be happy to ignore you in the future (which, if you'd return the favor, would indeed make me happy as further communication with you seems pretty pointless)- you can just continue to come up with fallacies to support your points to your heart's content, and it's certainly easier than sticking to the topic-at-hand.

JonnyF · April 3, 2014

^ Yep, if you still can't see the difference between endangering yourself and endangering others around you then it's probably best we let it go

RubberSideDown · April 3, 2014

^ Yep, if you still can't see the difference between endangering yourself and endangering others around you then it's probably best we let it go

Do you have any method of discourse other than fallacy and false attribution, Jonny? It would seem not, but I haven't really taken much notice of you other than on this thread and the previous one that's been referenced. Who said I couldn't see the difference (besides you, anyway)? They're completely separate points as far as this thread is concerned, but you lack the ability to see the distinction (or, more likely, you're just enjoying trolling).

If I may quote myself, what problem do you have with this? I can identify with a riding error- I can't identify with not properly preparing yourself for the possible consequences of a potential error (by you, another rider, a driver, whomever) as far as gear is concerned, and, thus, while I don't excuse the rider in the video, I can sympathize with the situation while acknowledging how bad his skills apparently are.

Yes, he endangered others, and I hope he improves his skills, and I gave my critique of what I believe he did wrong- on the same token, I think those who endanger themselves on a bike by not gearing up should expect negative comments on a rider's forum, and I'll critique them as well- they can tell me to f-off if they like, but we each have our right of express ourselves here.

my point was that I understand getting into a situation where you end up running wide entirely due to your own actions (and if you've been riding years you've almost certainly done it- I have), and I can sympathize with the situation. If you've run wide, this could have happened to you, and that's why I can't condemn the guy, though obviously it was a stupid, unskilled move.

Edited April 3, 2014 by RubberSideDown

Gweiloman · April 3, 2014

^

You're really pushing a straw man fallacy- I haven't seen anyone post in favor of what this guy did, and no one was injured (except for possibly the rider)- certainly the outcome could have been different, but we can only comment on what actually happened- you're speculating on what could have happened. I think everyone agrees it was a stupid move.

He made a common mistake and paid an uncommon price.

You still haven't answered the question- have you ever run wide? If so, were you fortunate that a car wasn't in the opposite lane at that exact moment? Are you as a rider defined by that moment? Did you learn from your mistake?

Maybe this guy is a complete road hazard- that's also speculation- I'm reacting to the single moment I witnessed in the video- you're creating a possible scenario and reacting to it, rather than dispassionately looking at what happened from your view as an experienced rider. Personally, I see exactly what he did wrong, and hopefully he learned from it and won't do it again.

I've run wide when I can see what's (not) coming. I've run wide on dual carriageways when I can see what's (not) behind me. I've run wide (and crashed) on tracks. I don't recall running wide on blind bends (to the extent that I can't correct it if I need to) on public roads. I'm a big believer in 'The Pace' when riding on public roads and I ride within my limits. But my point is that even if I DID run wide and endanger someone I would expect (and accept) criticism, not be defended and sympathized with because I'm a 'biker' or I was wearing ATGATT.

I don't believe I misrepresented your stance, and it's not a massive leap to imagine that he could have hit that car. Considering an equal and opposite scenario is sometimes a good way to reveal your own bias. So answer me this honestly, if this was posted on some 'cager' website and the roles were reversed and the car had been racing his friends and swerved into the oncoming biker, would you take the same stance in defending the car that could have (but didn't) cause serious injury to the other party? Or would you say the driver was an idiot?

And what do you consider worse, riding with a Big C helmet at 40 kph (endangering yourself) or what this guy did in full gear (endangering yourself as well as innocent bystanders)?

"I've run wide when I can see what's (not) coming. I've run wide on dual carriageways when I can see what's (not) behind me"

These are completely different scenarios to the topic on hand. Your "running wide" is done with you being in full control of the bike and knowingly, as you have accessed the risks and knew that it was safe to do so. In the case of the rider in the video, he did not intend to run wide. He overcooked the corner (implicit in this is of course his skill factor) and paid the price (fortunately for him, a relatively small one, assisted no doubt by the fact that he was also properly geared up).

I have ran wide a couple of times myself when I was first learning to ride. Luckily for me, there were no oncoming traffic but still, I was swearing at myself for my stupidity / misjudgement / lack of concentration - everything that I can think of to try and ensure that I don't put myself and others in danger's way.

I'm sure you have seen many an accident especially on Thailand's roads. If the rider is adequately attired, my first thought is always "good thing he was wearing a helmet / jacket etc. If not, my first thought is always "what an idiot" for not wearing even a helmet.

I don't think anyone on here is "excusing" the rider. But to condemn the mistake is a bit harsh, because it WAS a mistake and something that most of us have done ourselves (with the notable exception of your goodself as you stated in your post). By the same token, I would not condemn another rider for not wearing a helmet but I would definitely have less sympathy in the event of an accident than if he was properly attired. To wear safety gear or not is a personal choice (assuming we disregard the law for the purposes of this discussion). To me, deciding NOT to wear safety gear is a poor choice.

JonnyF · April 3, 2014

^ Yep, if you still can't see the difference between endangering yourself and endangering others around you then it's probably best we let it go

Do you have any method of discourse other than fallacy and false attribution, Jonny? It would seem not, but I haven't really taken much notice of you other than on this thread and the previous one that's been referenced. Who said I couldn't see the difference (besides you, anyway)? They're completely separate points as far as this thread is concerned, but you lack the ability to see the distinction (or, more likely, you're just enjoying trolling).

Yeah you haven't taken much notice of me other than those huge replies within minutes of my posts

Look, either you can't see the difference between the two, or you can see it and simply lack respect for others. Your line seems to be "Poor gear? I would never endanger myself that way so I'll flame you. Endanger passers by? I'll sympathize with you because I've done it myself." After all, the RubberSideDown risk-ometer is the industry standard so we'd better be careful if we over step the mark

So yeah, please ignore me and I'll return the favour - the others can continue to reap the benefits of the hypocritical safety lectures from the self appointed forum nanny

andreandre · April 3, 2014

^ Yep, if you still can't see the difference between endangering yourself and endangering others around you then it's probably best we let it go

Do you have any method of discourse other than fallacy and false attribution, Jonny? It would seem not, but I haven't really taken much notice of you other than on this thread and the previous one that's been referenced. Who said I couldn't see the difference (besides you, anyway)? They're completely separate points as far as this thread is concerned, but you lack the ability to see the distinction (or, more likely, you're just enjoying trolling).

Yeah you haven't taken much notice of me other than those huge replies within minutes of my posts

Look, either you can't see the difference between the two, or you can see it and simply lack respect for others. Your line seems to be "Poor gear? I would never endanger myself that way so I'll flame you. Endanger passers by? I'll sympathize with you because I've done it myself." After all, the RubberSideDown risk-ometer is the industry standard so we'd better be careful if we over step the mark

So yeah, please ignore me and I'll return the favour - the others can continue to reap the benefits of the hypocritical safety lectures from the self appointed forum nanny

"

the hypocritical safety lectures from the self appointed forum nanny "

You sure have hit the nail right on the head here..

RubberSideDown · April 3, 2014

Oops- incorrectly attributed and posted.

Edited April 3, 2014 by RubberSideDown

ll2 · April 3, 2014

just let it go guys.

i feel bad for the guy, regardless of he is right or wrong.

And I believe, someone does not wear a helmet has a higher possibility of endangering others life.

RubberSideDown · April 3, 2014

^ Yep, if you still can't see the difference between endangering yourself and endangering others around you then it's probably best we let it go
Do you have any method of discourse other than fallacy and false attribution, Jonny? It would seem not, but I haven't really taken much notice of you other than on this thread and the previous one that's been referenced. Who said I couldn't see the difference (besides you, anyway)? They're completely separate points as far as this thread is concerned, but you lack the ability to see the distinction (or, more likely, you're just enjoying trolling).

Yeah you haven't taken much notice of me other than those huge replies within minutes of my posts

Look, either you can't see the difference between the two, or you can see it and simply lack respect for others. Your line seems to be "Poor gear? I would never endanger myself that way so I'll flame you. Endanger passers by? I'll sympathize with you because I've done it myself." After all, the RubberSideDown risk-ometer is the industry standard so we'd better be careful if we over step the mark

So yeah, please ignore me and I'll return the favour - the others can continue to reap the benefits of the hypocritical safety lectures from the self appointed forum nanny

Interesting attitude, as I thought you were the yardstick by which we were measured.

As I said, you're unable to grasp a simple distinction- I tried, but it's beyond you. I took notice of you on two threads, but my point was that I'm unaware if you're always this obtuse, or if this is something special for you.

I can sympathize with a rider who made a common mistake (with uncommon consequences)- I don't, however, excuse what he did. Gear is completely irrelevant to this point, but you refuse to see it as you're still so upset over a previous thread.

Edited April 3, 2014 by RubberSideDown

RubberSideDown · April 3, 2014

^ Yep, if you still can't see the difference between endangering yourself and endangering others around you then it's probably best we let it go
Do you have any method of discourse other than fallacy and false attribution, Jonny? It would seem not, but I haven't really taken much notice of you other than on this thread and the previous one that's been referenced. Who said I couldn't see the difference (besides you, anyway)? They're completely separate points as far as this thread is concerned, but you lack the ability to see the distinction (or, more likely, you're just enjoying trolling).

Yeah you haven't taken much notice of me other than those huge replies within minutes of my posts

Look, either you can't see the difference between the two, or you can see it and simply lack respect for others. Your line seems to be "Poor gear? I would never endanger myself that way so I'll flame you. Endanger passers by? I'll sympathize with you because I've done it myself." After all, the RubberSideDown risk-ometer is the industry standard so we'd better be careful if we over step the mark

So yeah, please ignore me and I'll return the favour - the others can continue to reap the benefits of the hypocritical safety lectures from the self appointed forum nanny

"
the hypocritical safety lectures from the self appointed forum nanny "

You sure have hit the nail right on the head here..

Ah, yes, Mr. Street Survival Instructor (who chooses not to wear a helmet) has been waiting like a spider for his chance.

Or Mr. Body-Steering (which was debunked about 25 years ago)- please, you've haven't learned anything new since the 1970s, so forgive me if I don't take your opinion to heart.

andreandre · April 3, 2014

"
the hypocritical safety lectures from the self appointed forum nanny "

You sure have hit the nail right on the head here..

Ah, yes, Mr. Street Survival Instructor (who chooses not to wear a helmet) has been waiting like a spider for his chance.

Or Mr. Body-Steering (which was debunked about 25 years ago)- please, you've haven't learned anything new since the 1970s, so forgive me if I don't take your opinion to heart.

You really have lost the plot mate...

When you have even a small % of my riding experience, i may give you some creedance,

You continue to misconstrue my posts are you really that desperate to make yourself appear so knowledgeable?..Fail!!

Thing is 'Mr Paranoid" that i have done it and survived it, helmet or not ...old school or not 700,000 klms under my belt.tells the story....you really think that i dont have a vast amount of knowledge of Street survival skills to do this? Bizarre...or trolling..either way you are sounding more and more ,pathetic!

..You can twist my words, you can ridicule my choice of helmet but you can never take away the fact that i have done the miles...and survived [and still , now, ride every day of the week...]

RubberSideDown · April 3, 2014

"

the hypocritical safety lectures from the self appointed forum nanny "

You sure have hit the nail right on the head here..

Ah, yes, Mr. Street Survival Instructor (who chooses not to wear a helmet) has been waiting like a spider for his chance.
Or Mr. Body-Steering (which was debunked about 25 years ago)- please, you've haven't learned anything new since the 1970s, so forgive me if I don't take your opinion to heart.

You really have lost the plot mate...

When you have even a small % of my riding experience, i may give you some creedance,

You continue to misconstrue my posts are you really that desperate to make yourself appear so knowledgeable?..Fail!!

Thing is 'Mr Paranoid" that i have done it and survived it, helmet or not ...old school or not 700,000 klms under my belt.tells the story....you really think that i dont have a vast amount of knowledge of Street survival skills to do this? Bizarre...or trolling..either way you are sounding more and more ,pathetic!

..You can twist my words, you can ridicule my choice of helmet but you can never take away the fact that i have done the miles...and survived [and still , now, ride every day of the week...]

Yes, my mere 25 years and over 250,000 miles (over 400k km) on two wheels just pales in comparison. How many clicks do you need to ride before you can claim to be experienced? Let me guess- is it 700k?

I'm trolling? You're nut-swinging, and I called you on it. You've posted some unbelievably dumb things on this forum, most of which I've laughed at and let go- your problem is that you haven't stayed current, and it shows, like an old guy that can competently drive, but never gets any better (or has any interest in doing so).

There may be some people here who can't see through your BS- I'm not one of them.

You do a great job of concealing your 'vast amount of knowledge', I'll give you that...

You make assumptions about people, but you can't take it when they make them about you- kind of hypocritical, don't you think? You also like to toss out 'troll' and 'stalker' while ignoring the fact you can embody both those things.

You and Jonny need to pull the sticks out of your hindquarters that were firmly embedded due to my comments on the helmet thread- I haven't brought it up outside of any threads besides this one (and only because you both referenced it)- we disagree- get over it.

Edited April 3, 2014 by RubberSideDown

ll2 · April 3, 2014

"
the hypocritical safety lectures from the self appointed forum nanny "

You sure have hit the nail right on the head here..

Ah, yes, Mr. Street Survival Instructor (who chooses not to wear a helmet) has been waiting like a spider for his chance.

Or Mr. Body-Steering (which was debunked about 25 years ago)- please, you've haven't learned anything new since the 1970s, so forgive me if I don't take your opinion to heart.

You really have lost the plot mate...

When you have even a small % of my riding experience, i may give you some creedance,

You continue to misconstrue my posts are you really that desperate to make yourself appear so knowledgeable?..Fail!!

Thing is 'Mr Paranoid" that i have done it and survived it, helmet or not ...old school or not 700,000 klms under my belt.tells the story....you really think that i dont have a vast amount of knowledge of Street survival skills to do this? Bizarre...or trolling..either way you are sounding more and more ,pathetic!

..You can twist my words, you can ridicule my choice of helmet but you can never take away the fact that i have done the miles...and survived [and still , now, ride every day of the week...]

sorry but you were sounding the weirdest here while saying no need to know counter steering as we know it by our instincts!

and hard to believe that 700.000 KM without killing yourself by not knowing counter steering or not using helmet. maybe you were riding a tricycle?

Edited April 3, 2014 by ll2

andreandre · April 3, 2014

"
the hypocritical safety lectures from the self appointed forum nanny "

You sure have hit the nail right on the head here..

Ah, yes, Mr. Street Survival Instructor (who chooses not to wear a helmet) has been waiting like a spider for his chance.

Or Mr. Body-Steering (which was debunked about 25 years ago)- please, you've haven't learned anything new since the 1970s, so forgive me if I don't take your opinion to heart.

You really have lost the plot mate...

When you have even a small % of my riding experience, i may give you some creedance,

You continue to misconstrue my posts are you really that desperate to make yourself appear so knowledgeable?..Fail!!

Thing is 'Mr Paranoid" that i have done it and survived it, helmet or not ...old school or not 700,000 klms under my belt.tells the story....you really think that i dont have a vast amount of knowledge of Street survival skills to do this? Bizarre...or trolling..either way you are sounding more and more ,pathetic!

..You can twist my words, you can ridicule my choice of helmet but you can never take away the fact that i have done the miles...and survived [and still , now, ride every day of the week...]

sorry but you were sounding the weirdest here while saying no need to know counter steering as we know it by our instincts!

and hard to believe that 700.000 KM without killing yourself by not knowing counter steering or not using helmet. maybe you were riding a tricycle?

Another one of the wee 'clique' on this forum who cannot help but twist my posts..

The word i used was 'intuitional'..Yes?

Meaning..and heres the catch for you guys.....'comes with experience" this is where you are missing the point i believe.

I have the experience so as i said countersteering is, to me intuitional. I never ever think about it and it never comes up in conversation unless we are tal;king with total novices..oh wait..thats the problem here!

When you weekend/parttime riders actually get some real riding experience you too will find that it doesn't even cross your mind...you just do it as easily as it really is.

Do you guys really come upon a corner and start thinking..ooooeeerrr push right...or push left or what..and think about it? If you do you yourself should be riding tricycles..

Again, same as Mr ~~Rubber~~Cottonwool..my choice as to helmet or not...do you guys really believe that a choice of helmet or even no helmet can make a difference to a riders ability and skillset?

I dont give a stuff if you want to ride around wrapped in safety gear..thats your choice..but as is very obvious from reading the posts of some of you that you really believe that it makes you superior riders...

It is the very last option when your lack of skills and abilities has finally let you down..over 50 years i never reached that failure point...must be doing something right huh?

Not ever saying that that day wont come...it can happen to me or any one of you in a split second..no matter how many books and videos you study

....

Edited April 3, 2014 by andreandre

ll2 · April 3, 2014

sorry but you were sounding the weirdest here while saying no need to know counter steering as we know it by our instincts!

and hard to believe that 700.000 KM without killing yourself by not knowing counter steering or not using helmet. maybe you were riding a tricycle?

Another one of the wee 'clique' on this forum who cannot help but twist my posts..

The word i used was 'intuitional'..Yes?

Meaning..and heres the catch for you guys.....'comes with experience" this is where you are missing the point i believe.

I have the experience so as i said countersteering is, to me intuitional. I never ever think about it and it never comes up in conversation unless we are tal;king with total novices..oh wait..thats the problem here!

When you weekend/parttime riders actually get some real riding experience you too will find that it doesn't even cross your mind...you just do it as easily as it really is.

Do you guys really come upon a corner and start thinking..ooooeeerrr push right...or push left or what..and think about it? If you do you yourself should be riding tricycles..

Things do not come from the experience at the beginning. Things come after learning things or knowing them and we experience what we know/learn. Of course you can experience things by not knowing them like someone experiencing alien abduction in dreams.

Did you learn mathematics by your experience? what about playing football for example? or did you learn writing in an intuitional way? I mean even a monkey can scribble on a paper in an intuitional way but it does not know what it is doing or writing so something meaningless appears.

And monkeys ride motorcycles too but do they know what the are doing?

of course no one here is thinking like 'hey i need to counter steer now' and we do it automatically after all these years on bikes but we (have to) know what is counter steering and why we need to do it in which situation.

and FYI, i ride bikes nearly everyday for the last 15 years of my life and riding for 25 years also ride my bike every single day in Thailand as well to go work even though i can do it with a car or a van with a driver. So, if you are talking about bikes and experience or 700 k kms, some of us have it here man. I am saying this for not proving myself but to let you know whom you are dancing with.

and there is no counter steering for a tricycle by the way, FYI again.

Edited April 3, 2014 by ll2

RubberSideDown · April 3, 2014

^^

I don't care if you wear a helmet or not and you're entitled to your choice- I think not doing so is stupid, and I said so as I'm entitled to my opinion- deal with it. You posted in this thread about getting nailed on your bike (through what sounded like no fault of your own)- all your supposed skills and experience meant nothing in the face of that- you attributed your survival to 'fatalism' (which I consider to actually be closer to laziness in a 'why should I bother to make the effort' sense), but you could just as easily be dead- look up the 'Lazy Argument' sometime- a smarter version of fatalism includes proper preparation (i.e. you might be 'fated' to pass a test, but only if you study for it). Had you been wearing decent gear, the injuries to your extremities might have been greatly lessened.

I would think we've all reached the 'failure point' at some time in our riding lives (almost certainly in the early days)- crossing the double line, causing a driver to hit his brakes to avoid us, etc- the fact we might have escaped unscathed doesn't mean we didn't make egregious errors- we just didn't suffer the potential negative consequences.

Here's a great reason of why I can't take you seriously (from your post above):

The word i used was 'intuitional'..Yes?

Meaning..and heres the catch for you guys.....'comes with experience" this is where you are missing the point i believe.

'Comes with experience' is actually the complete opposite of what 'intuitional' means (it's closer to 'instinctual' and is something that's known in the absence of experience)- I'm not trying to be an English teacher (though you were attempting to be one) here, but come on...

Edited April 3, 2014 by RubberSideDown

RubberSideDown · April 3, 2014

and there is no counter steering for a tricycle by the way, FYI again.

You can back one in, though:):

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Prime example of idiocy caught on cam

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