Bike rental dispute

[Pralaad]

Thanks for the replies.

He got a quote from a repair shop but the rental shop wants >3x as much.

The rental people don't seem to be too keen on a logical or fair approach.

Where would be the profit in that?

As for him having to sign a "lien" or similar document, I doubt it.

But I really don't know the laws here.

Hence the thread.

I could file a spurious mechanic's lien on anyone's real estate in America without them even knowing.

$15-20 at the courthouse...they are liened.

Many contractors file a lien when they begin work and release it when they are paid in full.

Nothing personal, just sound business practice.

A vendor like, a lumber yard, can file a lien on a home even if the homeowner has paid contractor 100%.

Homeowner should always get a "lien waver' from all of the suppliers the contractor uses, before they deliver anything..

It works very differently here.

Shop makes a police report and states the damage and amount they want to be compensated for.

Shop also makes a report that the person refused to pay and is trying to flee.

Shoo then, gives copy of the passport to immigration to red flag this passport as it goes through immigration.

Once passport holder goes through immigration, he/she gets detained and things can get nasty from there.

As suggested earlier, either involve consumer protection board or tourist police in negotiations to make sure matter is clear,

[moe666]

I do not think a lien as in the west just a police report of not paying damage and a arrest warrant issued. If he tries to leave good chance of being detained. This happened to two Aussie guys a few years ago but it was over a house rental and damage to property. they thought they had satisfied the owner with payment and left Thailand for a couple of years. They returned a few year later and were arrested at immigration upon arrival, the owner at filed a complaint about non-payment and requested arrest warrants.

[nikster]

Where is this rental company?

I think the plan outlined above is pretty good - figure out the fair price using the yamaha parts list with prices (note that these always include labor in thailand), a repair shop quote, plus 2 or so extra rental days where the bike is out of commission, and go negotiate with the shop. Depending on where this is involving the tourist police might help.

Forget about fleeing the country, that's certainly not worth it. Besides you do want to pay for the damage you have caused.

[YipYipYa123]

Where is this rental company?

I think the plan outlined above is pretty good - figure out the fair price using the yamaha parts list with prices (note that these always include labor in thailand), a repair shop quote, plus 2 or so extra rental days where the bike is out of commission, and go negotiate with the shop. Depending on where this is involving the tourist police might help.

Forget about fleeing the country, that's certainly not worth it. Besides you do want to pay for the damage you have caused.

of the first smart posts in the thread -make an agreeable deal for the repairs +m bit extra for the inconveinence

and their bike being out of action while its being fixed etc

dont even try and run away from it ,if you get held at the airport you might e in custody for days and you will pay in the end anyway

i would not let circumstances get thay bad and make a deal with the owner (its a scooter ,not a ferrari so ask yourself if its realy worth risking

a thai jail for what would be condsidered peanuts money in your home country .......up 2 you though but i think a negeotiable deal is your best option )

if i was in that area id go down with you and help sort it out but im in bkk so its out of my range at the moment ............sorry bro

[VocalNeal]

Your friend probably also have to compensate the rental company while the motorcycle / scooter is out for repair.

This is probably what the "extra" is for? Loss of earnings.

Would those who responded with indignance, if you lent your bike to someone and they dropped it would you be happy if they took it to a third party for repair?

Yes it is a scam but not as bad as it would appear.

Moral of the story. If you rent a bike and drop it and all the parts are available at a local dealer get them replaced before you take it back! Oh and read the agreement or ask before renting.

[SDM0712]

Any friends of mine who have knocks or scrapes I tell not to inform the rental company and just go to a dealer in the next town. If it's only fairing it's an easy and cheap fix.

SDM

[speedtripler]

Any friends of mine who have knocks or scrapes I tell not to inform the rental company and just go to a dealer in the next town. If it's only fairing it's an easy and cheap fix.

SDM

its not your bike though ,if you read the conttract properly although most people never do it usually says that the bikes must be fixed at he owners designated repair centre \

that means you dont have permission to bring it to the cheapest som tam shop you can find and replace parts (reason being i think theyre worried that a tourist will get taken advantage off and if they may switch new parts to old ones (not fairings obviously but the battery and anything that wouldnt be noticed etc )

anything to make a few extra $ at the expense of some innocent tourist in some of these places ...............

Edited April 28, 2014 by speedtripler

[SDM0712]

Speedtripler

I agree but have witnessed people being charged 3000 baht for a broken rear light lens that cost 350 baht, I know because I asked Honda the price, and that included fitting.

Let me qualify my post, if it's fairing, a broken light, something minor that can be replaced with an identical piece of plastic then I would do it. It's its anything involving something more serious then its back to the rental company.

SDM

[ll2]

Just call the tourist police with and negotiate with parts price list in your hand as stated.

This works the best.

Never think running away, it does not worth being flagged and blacklisted at the immigration for some peanut money back home.

If you damage someone elses bike, you have to cover it.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited April 28, 2014 by ll2

[KamalaRider]

Some sort of contract or rental agreement was signed.

No island is involved.

Company says friend cannot have it repaired independently.

I suspect they want him to pay big-time, then in collusion with the repair shop, they also will turn in an inflated claim to their insurance company.

A very profitable business model, I'm told.

Is anyone sure about the passport hold thing?

In the States filing a lien is very easy.

Of course can't the rental company keep him from leaving Thailand, in fact the only thing they can do is to file a civil suit against your friend, but if the maffia gets involved, that's a different matter completely.

Why didn't you friend drive to a MC repair shop and take care of it himself? Further more, there is only a 15 000TBH insurance on the bike, a state regulated one, if the tax on the bike and whatnot is paid.

That insurance only covers the bike for a total demolished bike or hospital. But I haven't heard of anyone being able to claim, not even Thais but I don't keep track on every accident so it could possibly be possible.

[KamalaRider]

Thanks for the replies.

He got a quote from a repair shop but the rental shop wants >3x as much.

The rental people don't seem to be too keen on a logical or fair approach.

Where would be the profit in that?

As for him having to sign a "lien" or similar document, I doubt it.

But I really don't know the laws here.

Hence the thread.

I could file a spurious mechanic's lien on anyone's real estate in America without them even knowing.

$15-20 at the courthouse...they are liened.

Many contractors file a lien when they begin work and release it when they are paid in full.

Nothing personal, just sound business practice.

A vendor like, a lumber yard, can file a lien on a home even if the homeowner has paid contractor 100%.

Homeowner should always get a "lien waver' from all of the suppliers the contractor uses, before they deliver anything..

It works very differently here.

Shop makes a police report and states the damage and amount they want to be compensated for.

Shop also makes a report that the person refused to pay and is trying to flee.

Shoo then, gives copy of the passport to immigration to red flag this passport as it goes through immigration.

Once passport holder goes through immigration, he/she gets detained and things can get nasty from there.

As suggested earlier, either involve consumer protection board or tourist police in negotiations to make sure matter is clear,

Why is everyone believing this is a country without laws?

Yes he can file a police report but he also has to back up with evidence.

The whole thing is based on tourists have a deadline when to get back to their own country, because of this, both extorionists and police work together and if they started to believe anyone would cash up because of this fact, they won't stop trying, but if it goes to a local court outside the worst maffia islands or similar areas, you have a pretty descent chance to win or at least get the correct sum to pay for repairs, and it would most probably be settled between you and the other part in an early stage anyway.

Extortion isn't common practice in any court and it's a wrong assumption that the courts are as corrupt as the police.

But you could be unlucky with the choice of judge, much more so than in the average western country.

To go to court over a motorbike is just plain silly and it would probably never go that far anyway, but if the police gets involved they can mess with you but not keep you from leaving Thailand, only delaying it.

No judge in their right mind will accept a broken tail light as a reason to go further, not enough money is at stake.

[KamalaRider]

A "lien"by definition means physical possession. Therefore, if the rental company is not holding the actual passport, there can be no lien, in which case the owner, having possession of his/her passport, is free to use it for travel.

runnning away from a repair bill for a bike your "friend " crashed is a pretty shitty thing to do

if it were me ,id do my best to settle with the company |(suggest a discount is my idea ) and if your not happy dont use them again

you did crash their bike ,spare parts are almost NEVER in stock anywhere in thailand

_+ costs incurred for lost rental and transport fees to the repair centre and back etc before they can rent it again ...

i understand you think theyre charging too much based on repaior quotes alone but think of the ballaches they have to go through to

get it fixed because of YOU (maybe a week or two wait on parts etc ) before you decide theyre robbing bar stewards .......

A load of c..p, of course there are spareparts in almost any bike shop. For small repairs it takes maybe 20 minutes to fix, at the most 4 hours, Don't come with the BS the rentals loose a lot of money, it costs 250TBH per day to rent a bike, what transport fee, you mean 10TBH for gas to drive the bike to the repair shop and back.

Where do you live, in a land far, far away where they don't have motorbikes?

[Pralaad]

Thanks for the replies.

He got a quote from a repair shop but the rental shop wants >3x as much.

The rental people don't seem to be too keen on a logical or fair approach.

Where would be the profit in that?

As for him having to sign a "lien" or similar document, I doubt it.

But I really don't know the laws here.

Hence the thread.

I could file a spurious mechanic's lien on anyone's real estate in America without them even knowing.

$15-20 at the courthouse...they are liened.

Many contractors file a lien when they begin work and release it when they are paid in full.

Nothing personal, just sound business practice.

A vendor like, a lumber yard, can file a lien on a home even if the homeowner has paid contractor 100%.

Homeowner should always get a "lien waver' from all of the suppliers the contractor uses, before they deliver anything..

It works very differently here.

Shop makes a police report and states the damage and amount they want to be compensated for.

Shop also makes a report that the person refused to pay and is trying to flee.

Shoo then, gives copy of the passport to immigration to red flag this passport as it goes through immigration.

Once passport holder goes through immigration, he/she gets detained and things can get nasty from there.

As suggested earlier, either involve consumer protection board or tourist police in negotiations to make sure matter is clear,

Why is everyone believing this is a country without laws?

Yes he can file a police report but he also has to back up with evidence.

The whole thing is based on tourists have a deadline when to get back to their own country, because of this, both extorionists and police work together and if they started to believe anyone would cash up because of this fact, they won't stop trying, but if it goes to a local court outside the worst maffia islands or similar areas, you have a pretty descent chance to win or at least get the correct sum to pay for repairs, and it would most probably be settled between you and the other part in an early stage anyway.

Extortion isn't common practice in any court and it's a wrong assumption that the courts are as corrupt as the police.

But you could be unlucky with the choice of judge, much more so than in the average western country.

To go to court over a motorbike is just plain silly and it would probably never go that far anyway, but if the police gets involved they can mess with you but not keep you from leaving Thailand, only delaying it.

No judge in their right mind will accept a broken tail light as a reason to go further, not enough money is at stake.

Why do people on this board insist on posting rubbish?

Shop does not need to prove anything, just show the damage or witness statement.

What judge? What court?

It sure helps to know before posting incorrect Information , frankly rubbish.

Sure , get a lawyer and go to court, spend another 25-30k on legal fees and either keep on paying bike rental or hope judge will trust you, a tourist over a shop

[KamalaRider]

Thanks for the replies.

He got a quote from a repair shop but the rental shop wants >3x as much.

The rental people don't seem to be too keen on a logical or fair approach.

Where would be the profit in that?

As for him having to sign a "lien" or similar document, I doubt it.

But I really don't know the laws here.

Hence the thread.

I could file a spurious mechanic's lien on anyone's real estate in America without them even knowing.

$15-20 at the courthouse...they are liened.

Many contractors file a lien when they begin work and release it when they are paid in full.

Nothing personal, just sound business practice.

A vendor like, a lumber yard, can file a lien on a home even if the homeowner has paid contractor 100%.

Homeowner should always get a "lien waver' from all of the suppliers the contractor uses, before they deliver anything..

It works very differently here.

Shop makes a police report and states the damage and amount they want to be compensated for.

Shop also makes a report that the person refused to pay and is trying to flee.

Shoo then, gives copy of the passport to immigration to red flag this passport as it goes through immigration.

Once passport holder goes through immigration, he/she gets detained and things can get nasty from there.

As suggested earlier, either involve consumer protection board or tourist police in negotiations to make sure matter is clear,

Why is everyone believing this is a country without laws?

Yes he can file a police report but he also has to back up with evidence.

The whole thing is based on tourists have a deadline when to get back to their own country, because of this, both extorionists and police work together and if they started to believe anyone would cash up because of this fact, they won't stop trying, but if it goes to a local court outside the worst maffia islands or similar areas, you have a pretty descent chance to win or at least get the correct sum to pay for repairs, and it would most probably be settled between you and the other part in an early stage anyway.

Extortion isn't common practice in any court and it's a wrong assumption that the courts are as corrupt as the police.

But you could be unlucky with the choice of judge, much more so than in the average western country.

To go to court over a motorbike is just plain silly and it would probably never go that far anyway, but if the police gets involved they can mess with you but not keep you from leaving Thailand, only delaying it.

No judge in their right mind will accept a broken tail light as a reason to go further, not enough money is at stake.

Why do people on this board insist on posting rubbish?

Shop does not need to prove anything, just show the damage or witness statement.

What judge? What court?

It sure helps to know before posting incorrect Information , frankly rubbish.

Sure , get a lawyer and go to court, spend another 25-30k on legal fees and either keep on paying bike rental or hope judge will trust you, a tourist over a shop

There are numerous of extortionists in rentals and they have been reporting damages to motorbikes in the past, even replacing to broken items on motorbikes after the return of the bikes.

Police are cautious to follow up small matters today because of this, everything not water proof almost is thrown out of even the police station in tourist areas.

What witness statement, were they present at the time of the when the damage was done?

I made another post about courts and judges, please read that part.

I have a friend who rents out his motorbikes and I know the problems he's got with damaged bikes, do you have anyone you know well that have different experience?

He went to court of a severly damaged motorbike and he lost, yes he's Thai and the renter was farrang.

The assumption that because you are farrang you will loose any battle with a Thai are very wrong, that's why some Thai pay the police to be their grunts, a small matter with a broken tail light will not even be recognised by most coppers.

The police have been pummeled by Thai authorities to the degree they want to have a sure case before doing anything.

Edited April 28, 2014 by KamalaRider

[Richard-BKK]

Thailand has very strict rules about buying and renting a vehicle. The rules are the person who rents the vehicle pays all damage that happened during the time he rented the vehicle.

If there's no renting contract or the renting contract doesn't include any “what happens if I damage the vehicle” topics, it means that the rental company can ask for repair cost, missed rental income and administrative cost...

Therefore if a rental company doesn't have a clear and easy to understand contract, which include all things what can happen when you rent a motorcycle.... YOU SHOUT NOT RENT THE BIKE...

If you stupid enough to rent a motorcycle without a serious contract that includes topics as “what happens when I damage the bike” you should accept that you didn't do smart and be smart and follow the official “limited” options to settle the damage.

Contact the Thai Consumer Protection Board, the Tourist police are maybe not able to help you as the rental company is completely following the rules...

P.S. Everybody here complaining about the rental company being expensive, imagine it was your motorcycle.... would you accept anything less than original parts, installed by the official Yamaha dealer??

[speedtripler]

A "lien"by definition means physical possession. Therefore, if the rental company is not holding the actual passport, there can be no lien, in which case the owner, having possession of his/her passport, is free to use it for travel.

runnning away from a repair bill for a bike your "friend " crashed is a pretty shitty thing to do

if it were me ,id do my best to settle with the company |(suggest a discount is my idea ) and if your not happy dont use them again

you did crash their bike ,spare parts are almost NEVER in stock anywhere in thailand

_+ costs incurred for lost rental and transport fees to the repair centre and back etc before they can rent it again ...

i understand you think theyre charging too much based on repaior quotes alone but think of the ballaches they have to go through to

get it fixed because of YOU (maybe a week or two wait on parts etc ) before you decide theyre robbing bar stewards .......

A load of c..p, of course there are spareparts in almost any bike shop. For small repairs it takes maybe 20 minutes to fix, at the most 4 hours, Don't come with the BS the rentals loose a lot of money, it costs 250TBH per day to rent a bike, what transport fee, you mean 10TBH for gas to drive the bike to the repair shop and back.

Where do you live, in a land far, far away where they don't have motorbikes?

they actually dont,dealers order parts on a need to order basis

same thing happned withen my cbr got damaged

same as my pcx

same as the forza

and this is in a huge dealer in the centre of bkk

i can only imagine there would be less spares outsie the provinces

just doesnt make sense for dealers to order them in case their :might be a crash

(im not talking about oil or tyres or other consumables etc which they almost always have )

[roderz]

A "lien"by definition means physical possession. Therefore, if the rental company is not holding the actual passport, there can be no lien, in which case the owner, having possession of his/her passport, is free to use it for travel.

I would strongly suggest you do some light reading and DO NOT give out false information which may cause serious harm to people.

You can have 10 passports in your hand, however if all 10 are placed on alert, you will not be able to leave the country and would be arrested pending investigation.

This would be the worst possible scenario for being arrested, because no one in the airport knows the reason for arrest, so you would be locked up until station or office or officer which placed the alert decides to follow up on your arrest.

I am not giving advice; I'm merely trying to explain what the word "lien" means. By definition, it implies possession. So if a passport is in the hands of its rightful owner, then by definition, that passport cannot be subject to any "lien".

[papa al]

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Some sort of contract or rental agreement was signed.

No island is involved.

Company says friend cannot have it repaired independently.

I suspect they want him to pay big-time, then in collusion with the repair shop, they also will turn in an inflated claim to their insurance company.

A very profitable business model, I'm told.

Is anyone sure about the passport hold thing?

In the States filing a lien is very easy.

This is Thailand NOT the States .

US "law" has no standing here !

Best he pays !

Thank you for clarifying that.

[papa al]

Rental company is not holding PP.

Friend quite willing to pay fair amount but he likes to get kissed if he is going to get f**cked, I guess.

[ll2]

You cannot block someone at the airport by just informing the immigration!

You need court warrant for that all I know.

Otherwise, you can get everyone you know the passport no and you don't like get blocked.

There are some rules on this.

Edited April 28, 2014 by ll2

[papa al]

A "lien"by definition means physical possession. Therefore, if the rental company is not holding the actual passport, there can be no lien, in which case the owner, having possession of his/her passport, is free to use it for travel.

I would strongly suggest you do some light reading and DO NOT give out false information which may cause serious harm to people.

You can have 10 passports in your hand, however if all 10 are placed on alert, you will not be able to leave the country and would be arrested pending investigation.

This would be the worst possible scenario for being arrested, because no one in the airport knows the reason for arrest, so you would be locked up until station or office or officer which placed the alert decides to follow up on your arrest.

I am not giving advice; I'm merely trying to explain what the word "lien" means. By definition, it implies possession. So if a passport is in the hands of its rightful owner, then by definition, that passport cannot be subject to any "lien".

As I pointed out earlier I could easily lein any home in USA without possessing or even seeing it.

Only the legal description and a fee is necessary.

OP: "some kind of a lien or hold..."

I am not suggesting it would be an true lien on the passport, rather an immigration 'hold' of some sort.

Sorry if my analogy created confusion.

Edited April 28, 2014 by papa al

[KamalaRider]

A "lien"by definition means physical possession. Therefore, if the rental company is not holding the actual passport, there can be no lien, in which case the owner, having possession of his/her passport, is free to use it for travel.

runnning away from a repair bill for a bike your "friend " crashed is a pretty shitty thing to do

if it were me ,id do my best to settle with the company |(suggest a discount is my idea ) and if your not happy dont use them again

you did crash their bike ,spare parts are almost NEVER in stock anywhere in thailand

_+ costs incurred for lost rental and transport fees to the repair centre and back etc before they can rent it again ...

i understand you think theyre charging too much based on repaior quotes alone but think of the ballaches they have to go through to

get it fixed because of YOU (maybe a week or two wait on parts etc ) before you decide theyre robbing bar stewards .......

A load of c..p, of course there are spareparts in almost any bike shop. For small repairs it takes maybe 20 minutes to fix, at the most 4 hours, Don't come with the BS the rentals loose a lot of money, it costs 250TBH per day to rent a bike, what transport fee, you mean 10TBH for gas to drive the bike to the repair shop and back.

Where do you live, in a land far, far away where they don't have motorbikes?

they actually dont,dealers order parts on a need to order basis

same thing happned withen my cbr got damaged

same as my pcx

same as the forza

and this is in a huge dealer in the centre of bkk

i can only imagine there would be less spares outsie the provinces

just doesnt make sense for dealers to order them in case their :might be a crash

(im not talking about oil or tyres or other consumables etc which they almost always have )

Not my experience at all, my Click and Forza, repaired in less than 20 minutes in Phuket. Must be depending on what's needed, of course they have the most usual parts in store.

[Shurup]

You cannot block someone at the airport by just informing the immigration!

You need court warrant for that all I know.

Otherwise, you can get everyone you know the passport no and you don't like get blocked.

There are some rules on this.

Logically - yes! Absolutely agree, but TIT, I won't be surprised if there's no rules on this.

[speedtripler]

You cannot block someone at the airport by just informing the immigration!

You need court warrant for that all I know.

Otherwise, you can get everyone you know the passport no and you don't like get blocked.

There are some rules on this.

Logically - yes! Absolutely agree, but TIT, I won't be surprised if there's no rules on this.

if you have outstading police charges to answer you will be detained at any exit

so if the shop did bother to press charges you might get a nasty surprise

dont forget most of these shops are run by the mafia /hand in hand with the local police

so i cant see the point in taking that kind of risks to avoid paying something like 100 USD ??

[Shurup]

Yeah, I wouldn't try running, but then I wouldn't be seen riding anything rental without a proper agreement.

OP was given some good answers already, I'd give a consumer protection board a call, as was suggested earlier.

[roguewo]

Monday call the Thai Office of the Consumer Protection Board for free, number 1166 (they speak English).

Since 2013 Thailand has new rules for vehicle rent, which also include a reasonable compensation if the person who rented the vehicle has damaged the vehicle during the rental period.

From my experience when the Office of the Consumer Protection Board gets involved the issues are very quickly resolved... I once had a motorcycle dealer not pay back my deposit one telephone call from the Office of the Consumer Protection Board and the money was transferred to my bank account...

Does this office work on insurance claims and house rental deposits? Some are a bit dated, but still... All told 24,000! TIT

Edited April 29, 2014 by roguewo

[Richard-BKK]

You cannot block someone at the airport by just informing the immigration!

You need court warrant for that all I know.

Otherwise, you can get everyone you know the passport no and you don't like get blocked.

There are some rules on this.

100% true, you cannot stop anybody leaving the country without an arrest warrant. But you should assume that the rental company is not completely stupid, they likely a few years in the motorcycle rental business.

Also, the OP also told us that his friend who rented the bike had signed some sort of contract. Likely this contract set the basics of the rental agreement and can, and will be used against the person who rented the motorcycle.