We are degenerating just like Venice did in the 18th century: Thai opinion

[webfact]

TELL IT AS IT IS
We are degenerating just like Venice did in the 18th century
Pornpimol Kanchanalak
Special to The Nation

BANGKOK: -- There are several reasons why it was refreshing to hear former prime minister Abhisit Vejjajiva explain why he is stepping in to help find an "amicable" and mutually acceptable resolution, as our messy and nasty political conflict approaches a destructive dead end.

Admire him or hate him, there is one thing we can all agree upon: he does not talk dirt. Abhisit risked censure from all sides by stepping forward. But he was following his "conscience and duty to the country", and the rest (though he did not say it in so many words) was understandably just trivial.

The notion of having a conscience and a duty to the country, the dread of committing wrongdoing, and the shame of behaving dishonestly have lost their lustre in our society.

Thailand has entered an Age of Decadence.

More than two decades of fast and furious economic prosperity has so amplified the bad habits of consumerism that there are alarmingly few things that money cannot now buy. A certain religious sect even claims worshippers can buy a place in heaven with donations to their temple.

In tandem with the rise to prominence and power of the nouveau riche - most of whom feverishly follow the model of the Uber-capitalist United States, which professes its trust in God on its banknotes - is the decay of our moral backbone.

Bangkok was once called the Venice of the East for its many canals and serene surroundings. Now the country can be compared to the Republic of Venice during the 18th century as it declined to a low point in its near-thousand-year existence. The descent of Venice into its Age of Decadence finally saw it fall to Napoleon in 1797.

The social, economic, political and moral transformation that made Venice the "dissipate and licentious capital of all Europe" is laid bare for tourists in the "Guided Walking Tour of Life in Eighteenth-century Venice": "The nouveau riche ascended to great palazzos on the Grand Canal, nuns took to cavorting with handsome, young men, women ran casinos for their own enjoyment, and coffee and chocolate, those most exotic of pleasures, were consumed with appetites approaching lust."

That era gave the world a new word: "Casanova". Eighteenth-century Venetian Giacomo Casanova is notorious even today for his endless sexual adventures, including an affair with his own 17-year-old illegitimate daughter, which resulted in her giving birth to a boy who was both his son and his grandson.

There are compelling external reasons for his behaviour. The 18th century was a famously promiscuous era, and nowhere more so than in Venice. The all-but non-existent sexual morality in the city in which Casanova grew up must surely have played a significant role in shaping his conduct.

Fast forward to the Thailand of today and we don't have to look hard nor far to find those same external reasons. The traditional notions in our society of what constitute decency, honour and dignity have given way to deceit, self-interest and exploitation. Most things seem to have become commodities, ie tradable. The first blessing that many monks offer to alms-givers is that their "good deeds" bring them wealth. The reason? Nowadays wealth is synonymous with honour, respectability and acceptability. Money is what greases the wheels.

We have become more accepting of hideous behaviour such as paedophilia, practised on our youngsters by both locals and foreigners. In fact, abuse of all sorts is becoming more acceptable, condoned and even encouraged - especially abuse of power. For minor government officials, it is a known and accepted fact of life that monetary "tributes" are sometimes not enough to gain promotion from a superior; at times they must also sell their bodies. As such, we have an increasing number of inept officials in high places who have no notion of public service, and do not care to acquire one. In many cases, the abuses are passed on and become a tradition. These are officials who get there not because of their merits or their ability, but because they "pay" their way to their positions. As in Venice, complacence towards devious and lascivious acts has become an acceptable norm here.

Pageantry, pomposity and self-aggrandisement have replaced substance, honesty, prudence and humility in our social, political and moral life. Truth and logic have become endangered species.

Ours has become a country where compromise is equated to loss of face by certain individuals, which must be avoided even at the cost of the country's demise. It is a land where taking responsibility for misdeeds is considered shameful. South Korea's prime minister resigned over the tragedy involving a ferry owned by a private company. We cannot expect our own leaders to do so even when they have committed crimes.

The question we Thais must ask ourselves is: "Do we want to continue down the path that brought us to this age of decadence without dignity, looking back on a beautiful past but unable to move forward to the better nation we can build, and one that our children deserve to inherit?"

The answer rests in the hands of all of us.


-- The Nation 2014-05-01

[terryp]

The full Thai system must collapse so it can be rebuilt from the ground up …otherwise get ready for this mess every 18 months

To be truthful after almost 3 decades here the only thing that has changed with the ruling class is there’s much more corruption…so I won’t hold my breath (in my lifetime)

Thailand is a lost cause and it deserve what it gets; as so many are to blame from the people who accept money to vote right to the very top that favour nepotism and cronyism/…they are kleptomaniacs that rule by plutocracy

[Tatsujin]

"Do we want to continue down the path that brought us to this age of decadence without dignity, looking back on a beautiful past but unable to move forward to the better nation we can build, and one that our children deserve to inherit?"

I'd say that that horse has already bolted long ago, after cleaning up the stables and locking the barn door behind it. It won't be back.

[englishoak]

I doubt if 99% of the population even knows where Venice is.

[NongKhaiKid]

I doubt if 99% of the population even knows where Venice is.

But they will be pissed off that Venice beat them to degeneration.

[daveAustin]

A lost cause indeed. Greed and selfishness are entrenched, top to bottom, but you're talking generations to turn it around, it ain't gonna happen overnight that's for sure. Sad, because it could (should) be great.

[ABCer]

I WILL TELL IT AS IT IS>

To compare BKK to Venice is an obscenity.

Only a person who does not know the difference between

a sea and a swamp

a palace and a dump

a cake and noodles

a Renaissance and Illiteracy

a gondola and a tuk-tuk

a Saint Marco and a VAT Crematorium

could make such a sacrilegious comparison.

I have seen and heard many things in many years of living in Thailand.

Some were beautiful, many were ugly, altogether it is a life, - especially when one keeps a healthy sense of humour.

This time I am really angry.

Before BKK 'degenerates' like Venice it has to generate something.

Sorry, but it really was too much...

Fire away!

[jalansanitwong]

They live in cookoo land this lot....Thailand's a prosperous country. For who ? The rich ammart and a few merchants. Most Thais are poorly educated , and have very little money .

Most Thais dont live in Bangkok, or the bar towns like Pattaya,Phuket and Hua Hin.

This is a country where poor young men dream of working overseas for 30 dollars a day and poor young women dream of marrying an old foreign man and living in Europe,USA or Aust in financial bliss for her and

her family back home.

Prosperous Thailand.....take foreign investment and expats out of here and its curtains. Even the Thai silk industry was dead until an American came along and saved it in the 1950's.

The Thais didnt thank him either. They tried to discredit him and run him out of town and take over the silk industry themselves......which they did.

Whats the point of talking about Venice ? Alot of Thais cant even point to THAILAND on an atlas.

Edited May 1, 2014 by jalansanitwong

[bulekee]

I gave up reading the article two 3rds of the way through.I suggest the author looks back at Thai history as to what was going on here 3/4 hundred years ago.Even as recently as the 60"s it was described as a licentious society.Does anyone remember the furor a few years ago when the British Ambassadors papers were released and Thailand took umbrage ( again ).I have been to Venice several times and there is no way it can be compared with the filth of the canals here.TAT again.

[PaullyW]

The Thais, always with their overly lofty thoughts. Venice?! <deleted>, there's very little of Thai history that would warrant such a comparison. Thailand has NEVER had a Venice. They really do believe this stuff I think

[PaullyW]

I WILL TELL IT AS IT IS>

To compare BKK to Venice is an obscenity.

Only a person who does not know the difference between

a sea and a swamp

a palace and a dump

a cake and noodles

a Renaissance and Illiteracy

a gondola and a tuk-tuk

a Saint Marco and a VAT Crematorium

could make such a sacrilegious comparison.

I have seen and heard many things in many years of living in Thailand.

Some were beautiful, many were ugly, altogether it is a life, - especially when one keeps a healthy sense of humour.

This time I am really angry.

Before BKK 'degenerates' like Venice it has to generate something.

Sorry, but it really was too much...

Fire away!

+1

How disgusting for the writer to make such a comparison. But, I'm quite sure many Thais would believe it's an appropriate one. You have to compliment them on their ability to ignore all their flaws.

[Tom420]

Wait your average Thai knows about 18th century Venice? Most Thai's I know of don't even know WW2 happened let alone this.

[noitom]

The Thai writer demonstrats a deep amateur lack of historical knowledge and perspective in their premise and the facts.

[eddie61]

I doubt if 99% of the population even knows where Venice is.

ok translate as benit

[ginjag]

I doubt if 99% of the population even knows where Venice is.

Thai answer, BKK ?? Floating market ??? is it meat ??? I don't know where she went ???

[chainarong]

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The full Thai system must collapse so it can be rebuilt from the ground up …otherwise get ready for this mess every 18 months

To be truthful after almost 3 decades here the only thing that has changed with the ruling class is there’s much more corruption…so I won’t hold my breath (in my lifetime)

Thailand is a lost cause and it deserve what it gets; as so many are to blame from the people who accept money to vote right to the very top that favour nepotism and cronyism/…they are kleptomaniacs that rule by plutocracy

My son told me the other day that there are more bad than good people now in Thailand, not a good look from a 34 year old.

[Borzandy]

Pls, could you tell me how many Thais know what Venice did in the 18th century

[AyG]

a Saint Marco and a VAT Crematorium

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a VAT Crematorium?

[gabruce]

a Saint Marco and a VAT Crematorium

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a VAT Crematorium?

It's early, but I think it's where the government burns the Value Added Tax revenues.

[ginjag]

a Saint Marco and a VAT Crematorium

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a VAT Crematorium?

Where you only get 7% of the ashes back.

[Misterwhisper]

What a meek attempt to compare Thailand to Venice - 300 years late.

When Venice was at the height of its power in the 17th century, people in what was then Siam were walking around in loin cloths, sat on the ground eating from the same bowl and waged wars with sticks.

Venice may have been decadent in its later years, but its ultimate decline has to be attributed to the loss of its many trading posts and colonies (including Crete, for example) in the Eastern Mediterranean to the Ottomans in the 16th and 17th centuries.

Venetians didn't search for lucky lottery numbers on sacred trees and basically every given object deemed holy. Venetians didn't marry foreigners to financially support their entire families. Venetians didn't vote politicians into power because they were paid a pittance for their vote. Venetians didn't demand their purchase of a single Coke can be put in a tiny plastic bag, which they later threw away. Venetians didn't pull a gun on everybody over a perceived "lost face". Venetians didn't let suspected killers walk free for a ridiculous amount of bail to subsequently flee the country. Venetians didn't see themselves as a superior master race dominating the rest of Europe. Venetians didn't hang out most of the day stone drunk complaining how tough their life was because they couldn't financially support their multiple minor wives. Venetians didn't go out on the day they received their salaries and blew it all on wine, women and song. Venetians didn't blame their own shortcomings on everybody else and rejected any responsibility for their faults. Venetians didn't rip off foreign visitors through ingeniously designed schemes and certainly didn't charge foreigners double or triple prices. And perhaps most importantly: Venetians weren't governed by a criminal fugitive from some 5,000 kilometers away in self-imposed exile.

The decadence currently prevailing in Thailand is entirely her own mess. Venice has got nothing to do with it.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Misterwhisper

[PaullyW]

^^ As usual, shows how most Thais, even the "educated", "worldly" ones are so superficial in their understanding of things. Same superficiality that pervades the entirety of Thai culture.

[Valentine]

What a meek attempt to compare Thailand to Venice - 300 years late.

When Venice was at the height of its power in the 17th century, people in what was then Siam were walking around in loin cloths, sat on the ground eating from the same bowl and waged wars with sticks.

Venice may have been decadent in its later years, but its ultimate decline has to be attributed to the loss of its many trading posts and colonies (including Crete, for example) in the Eastern Mediterranean to the Ottomans in the 16th and 17th centuries.

Venetians didn't search for lucky lottery numbers on sacred trees and basically every given object deemed holy. Venetians didn't marry foreigners to financially support their entire families. Venetians didn't vote politicians into power because they were paid a pittance for their vote. Venetians didn't demand their purchase of a single Coke be put in a tiny plastic bag, which they later throw away. Venetians didn't pull a gun on everybody over a perceived "lost face". Venetians didn't let suspected killers walk free for a ridiculous amount of bail to subsequently flee the country. Venetians didn't see themselves as a superior master race dominating the rest of Europe. Venetians didn't hang out most of the day stone drunk complaining how tough their life was because they couldn't financially support their multiple minor wives. Venetians didn't go out on the day they received their salaries and blew it all on wine, women and song. Venetians didn't blame their own shortcomings on everybody else and rejected any responsibility for their faults. Venetians didn't rip off foreign visitors through ingeniously designed schemes and certainly didn't charge foreigners double or triple prices. And perhaps most importantly: Venetians weren't governed by a criminal fugitive from some 5,000 kilometers away in self-imposed exile.

The decadence currently prevailing in Thailand is entirely her own mess. Venice has got nothing to do with it.

I think the OP is comparing the degeneration of society in general rather than the actual cultures.

[Lupatria]

I doubt if 99% of the population even knows where Venice is.

To get a slightly better result, ask them which countries have direct borders with LOS, or ask to show their own country on a world map.

[Tom420]

I doubt if 99% of the population even knows where Venice is.

To get a slightly better result, ask them which countries have direct borders with LOS, or ask to show their own country on a world map.

This, I once asked my GF 2 things. The first was which country is bigger in size, Thailand or the US? Did not know and thus didn't answer. 2nd question, who as more power within the workings of the political world, before her brain exploded she of course said you know who, the dude that cannot be named. When I said the president of the US did she actually knew his name to my surprise.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Tom420

[Maroon Watcher]

Has he been to Venice!!!!

[BlueSkyCowboy]

The full Thai system must collapse so it can be rebuilt from the ground up …otherwise get ready for this mess every 18 months

To be truthful after almost 3 decades here the only thing that has changed with the ruling class is there’s much more corruption…so I won’t hold my breath (in my lifetime)

Thailand is a lost cause and it deserve what it gets; as so many are to blame from the people who accept money to vote right to the very top that favour nepotism and cronyism/…they are kleptomaniacs that rule by plutocracy

Sounds a lot like you are talking about the USa

[peterbkk9]

I WILL TELL IT AS IT IS>

To compare BKK to Venice is an obscenity.

Only a person who does not know the difference between

a sea and a swamp

a palace and a dump

a cake and noodles

a Renaissance and Illiteracy

a gondola and a tuk-tuk

a Saint Marco and a VAT Crematorium

could make such a sacrilegious comparison.

I have seen and heard many things in many years of living in Thailand.

Some were beautiful, many were ugly, altogether it is a life, - especially when one keeps a healthy sense of humour.

This time I am really angry.

Before BKK 'degenerates' like Venice it has to generate something.

Sorry, but it really was too much...

Fire away!

"To compare BKK to Venice is an obscenity."

+1

[Pib]

I doubt if 99% of the population even knows where Venice is.

It's a Redshirt village in Isaan, right?

[MantisMan]

I heard that the Thai food was not all that great in the 18th century. Very bland and plain being spice-less. Was not until the Portuguese brought over chili peppers that it started to "spice up" a bit.