Thai 'Red Shirts' warn of civil war if government falls

[Skint]

Prime example of democracy “Red Shirt Style”

An elected pm by the masses don't forget. A government yet again cut short of term due to baby crying.

An elected pm by the masses don't forget

Elected????

Yes elected, something wrong?

[wolf5370]

If it takes a civil war for the majority of the population to retain their civil rights then so be it.

What civil rights

The people where thrown out by a legal court

and please tell me when you did a count and how, to make your statement "the majority of the population " true

are you for or against the 3 main principles of reform

No 1) we need freedom of speech by all parties in all areas

No 2) Section 102 Enforced

A person under any of the following prohibitions shall have no right to be a candidate in an election of members of the House of Representatives:

(6) having been expelled, dismissed or removed from the official service, a State agency or a State enterprise on the ground of dishonest performance of duties or corruption;

3) All parties yellow and red to abide by the rule of law

seems to me this reform applies to both sides

No 1) we need freedom of speech by all parties in all areas

So Lese Majeste laws are to be completely removed?

A person under any of the following prohibitions shall have no right to be a candidate in an election of members of the House of Representatives:

(6) having been expelled, dismissed or removed from the official service, a State agency or a State enterprise on the ground of dishonest performance of duties or corruption;

On previous convictions (and non-convictions) of lobsided, politically motivated rulings, motivated from higher beings? Bit unfair that, wouldn't you say.

"So Lese Majeste laws are to be completely removed?" - out of context - he is clearly talking about the ability to canvass in all areas without fear of attack, intimidation or death. Les Majeste and other rules (such as libel and disseminating state secrets etc) apply to all - as they should - and therefore moot.

"On previous convictions (and non-convictions) of lobsided, politically motivated rulings, motivated from higher beings? Bit unfair that, wouldn't you say." - I wouldn't. I would say that is a matter for the court of appeals and NACC. We do not let murders walk the streets because there has been miscarriages of justice in other cases, we leave this to the courts of appeal. This should be an absolute, unless overturned in a higher court, and applies to all parties so again, is fair.

Every Act/Bill raised by any government can be nit-picked and reasons found to argue against it. Promoting integrity is compelling and hard to argue against with any legitimacy.

[sumtingwong]

Are they saying that there be civil war unless you allow us to violate any laws we want?

[wolf5370]

You might want to go and find the original quote. Korn did not say he bought votes.

You're half right. I saw the interview, and read the transcripts from it. He didn't say "he" bought votes, he said the Democratic party spent more on vote buying than the PTP, and they still lost, so, in his opinion "vote buying" had/has no bearing on the final vote count.

No, it's still a lie, he said they spent more in the electoral campaign, not in vote buying.

How is it a "lie" when the interviewer was specifically asking him about vote buying, not about overall spending?

You mean you are surprised when a politician doesn't answer a specific question directly? This is standard play - and every politician does it - change the question to safer ground and answer that instead. Only a fool would have answered such a loaded question - and he simply would not let himself walk into it.

Mis-quoting him later by adding in words that were not in his statement - or even intimated in his statements - is a lie. That is what you were caught out on - you stated above " I saw the interview, and read the transcripts from it. He didn't say "he" bought votes, he said the Democratic party spent more on vote buying than the PTP" - which was untrue. Simples

[wolf5370]

Sleazy Robert Amsterdam is on the red stage again. Its not the first time he is part of a civil war so lets see how far Thaksin wants to go.

Erm is he not in breach of a foreigner directly involved in politics then - should he not be arrested and deported like our Indian friend?

[wolf5370]

The significance of these marches, really is who is there.

When I asked people where they came from, they were locals mostly. They filled up and left during the evening from Bangkok and the surrounds. So I assume its the same for Udon than, Khon Khen etc. each of which got very large turnouts. I know my mom was at the UdonThani one, but not the Khon Khen one, and now I'm away I'm not at Aksa this time.

Face it, the reds can raise massive numbers if you take away democracy.

And you can pretend its all Burmese workers, or they're paid to be there, but that's complete garbage. We expect to be paid 1 vote, and it should be clear there are a lot of us! You genuinely lost the last election, you genuinely need to get your electoral act together.

I'm wealthy, I'm old, I should be 'elite' or 'democrat', and yet I voted for PT. They have popular policies that spread the wealth, and expand the economy, and I know it's boring and odd to you, but that is a good thing. Those idiots in their Ferrari, they are clueless. That's just a car. I'm old, I've had many cars, but I wouldn't swap any of them for my rice farmer uncle.

Yet all we hear from your side is "Thaksin Thaksin Thaksin", as if you're living ground hog day, and it's 2006.... and its really tiresome.

You're not taking away our elections, and we're not voting in Abhisit. So if you want to be elected, find someone electable. These coups are a dead end. Without the military, you guys are just some corrupt officials talking garbage to other corrupt officials. Why would we listen?

You make a good argument for reform before elections

[wolf5370]

I hope there will be no civil war. Sadly it sounds like the red-shirts want one, based on the rhetoric of the red-shirts.

you see THIS is the problem - it's the 'red shirts' not the fake monk... Suthep and his thugs... it's those pesky 'red shirts'

you KNOW???... the ones who keep WINNING elections... terribly inconvenient to the yellow, elite ammart who want to keep raking in the cash

When did the red shirts win an election? Didn't even know they were a political party!

Yes those pesky yellows that keep raking in the cash - must be them that took the hundreds of billion the last few years eh?

[wolf5370]

If it takes a civil war for the majority of the population to retain their civil rights then so be it.

The majority of the population do not want a civil war. Just a few nuts who are mostly on Thaksin's payroll.

Funny guy. The majority do not want war, but the facist movement led by the little faci suthep want war, and they will get it sooner than they expect, and more violent than they expect.

Amazing how it is only ever the Red camp that threaten civil war - try and recruit and militarily train 100k people - and yet it's Suthep that wants war! I wonder if some of you lot have evolved anus tongues, it's where you seem to do most of your talking from.

[wolf5370]

This is a case where rich men send poor men's sons to fight and die for them to satisfy an insatiable greed for power and money. I don't personally know any Thai person who wants a war. But we do hear rhetoric from the extremists on both sides that is heading Thailand towards that end.

yes but it really is 'old' vs 'new'

this is all about 'paradigm shift'

for me it's clear - there are 'bad' on both sides

but it IS about the elite feudalistic monarchists and those that want freedoms of speech and democracy

the 'reds' and 'yellows' are just a symptom of this struggle

Oh yes, (slightly naughty) angels and (dark evil satanic) demons. Grow up!

The Reds and Yellows is about power - both sides. Period. The rest is BS.

The PDRC may have the support of the Yellows, but it is not a Yellow entity. It is comprised of the same sort of people that rose up in 1973 to give democracy to the people and force changes/reforms to limit the power of the junta - that is, the middle classes of Bangkok and the students.

The real Yellows, PAD etc, will be no more happy with reforms than the Reds will - tough! There will be reform now - it has gone too far to stop it, there may (or hopefully may not) be serious bloodshed along the way, but both extremes are going to have to live with it or end up without a legal remit at all.

[wolf5370]

There won't be a civil war, the army will step in ,all over in a very short time and Red leaders leaving the country

i hope so.

Someone have the time and inclination to create a database of the resident yellows slipping up and wishing for / condoning a military coup? I suggest it be called "the Mask Slips".

PS.

Yeah, I know, "military coup" is actually the 16:th Principle of Democracy. Or something.

Are you suggesting that "civil war" is a principle of democracy? After all he was suggesting that a result of a civil war, i.e. armed civilian combatants acting outside the law causing mayhem and murder, would be stopped by the military, not that it should be a desired day-to-day part of democracy here. You also suggest that the military reacting to such armed people on the streets, enacting war, is a coup ??? Man you have some strange thought processes there.

[Mango Bob]

You don't need a civil war, Just let the Red Shirts march to parliament and Government House and demand that the area be given back to the government than see what happens from there. It time both sides met and either discuss a solution to their problem or solve it by other means.

[wolf5370]

Prime example of democracy “Red Shirt Style”

Look, if you are not prepared to settle political issues through the electoral process (at least not without giving said process a good rigging beforehand), noting that this *might* lead to civil war is just a matter of restating the obvious.

Other possible outcomes are a Singapore-style "managed democracy" (the "best" possible outcome), a straight up dictatorship, or just civil war, and / or plain chaos in various other forms (a common outcome when noone can get widespread legitimacy for their rule).

Right now, it´s up to the Yellows to decide if they want to roll the dice. They should be aware of the gravity of the decision that they are making.

How about, temporary addendum is made to the constitution for a limited time, ratified by the senate and crown, to allow for a reform committee to sit unhampered by the government and a short term election (lasting for a short 2 year term - same length of time as the reform committee has), all reforms agreed by referendum, new full elections under the new rules - return to normalcy and a better form of government as a result? Oh missed that one eh?

There is no die to be rolled - there is simply threat, action and reaction. Insurrection is insurrection, the UDD have no legal legitimacy to wage war, so armed response is just that, insurrection - and the consequence of which is most likely an armed response by legitimate authority (whether police or military - depending on the force required and the danger to the civilian authorities).

[beautifulthailand99]

Live feed from the Red Camp on You Tube

http://www.uddtoday.net/

Edited May 10, 2014 by beautifulthailand99

[Tywais]

Posts with deliberate misspelling of a name, plus several off topic argumentative posts and replies to them removed.

[wolf5370]

Lol, no - as told to me by my family and friends - most of whom voted PTP last time, but will not this time

Well I doubt if the friends amount to 5

If his friends amount to 5, and most that voted for PTP will not now - then you are in trouble statistically. 40% of the voters in 2011, so assuming all 5 voted, then only 2 voted for PTP. If MOST of them will not be voting again, that leaves zero (as 1 would be half, not MOST - so 2 would be MOST). Don't you love statistics

[beautifulthailand99]

I am the only person in the world watching the live feed - in the world !! (see view stats under the video on You Tube !)

[Skywalker69]

Wow, last time I was there, was April 5th and it was a low density crowd, that peaked for the evening speeches at 50k.

Yeh, I was at that rally. I was about 700m from the front stage on the left (I'm the one in red ), sadly this also meant I was away and didn't have a computer and internet. I've only had full internet for the last few days, and been on 3G smartphone.

Peak was about 8:30pm-10pm on first day, I estimate about 50k (based on density, it was a 1.25km road, with about 2x25m wide sections, so lets say 20m+20m to allow for a bit for stalls and toilets. Low density crowd, the Bangkokpost and Nation drone photos look like a high density 4/m2 but that was density near the front stage and each of the repeater TV screens, between these it was sparse, so overall go for the low density 1/m2 = 1* 40*1250 = 50k tops.

There were some in the park, and some in the east side of the road, but I'm taking those as 0, well at least small enough not to significantly affect a total.

During the quiet of Sunday afternoon it was sparse, 5k to 10k tops. That group was the people who came from Issan, Chiang Mai and some from the South. They had come far for the whole weekend and were camping in the park. During the night it filled up with Central and Bangkok folk (I ask about 20 people, none were Burmese or Cambodia).

Now it's 6pm and it's already full and far far denser.

aska-font.jpg

And not 1 per m2, those walkways across the canal are about 1m wide, thats more like 3-4 people/m2.

The overspill areas is in the top where the circle is, and the east side of Aska road. How many do they have in those?

aksa-back.jpg

They've changed the format too, the left side has no stalls now.

1.25km road * (25+20) * 4 people/m2 = 225,000

Only 775 000 people missing.

[Tokay]

Don't care. Just get it over with already.

[wolf5370]

I am the only person in the world watching the live feed - in the world !! (see view stats under the video on You Tube !)

No sound for me - speaker looks happy though (for a change) - all smiles. Just no idea what he is saying (understanding Thai is one thing - lip reading it in a two inch square blurry video, no siree)

[Roadman]

If it takes a civil war for the majority of the population to retain their civil rights then so be it.

Having been in a country where there was a military takeover (where I lost relatives) and having lost civilian relatives in a civil war in another SE Asian country I must admit that I am not keen to lose anymore relatives. In both of these SE Asian countries civil rights have not been restored to the level that currently exist in Thailand. So please excuse me for not sharing your enthusiasm.

I dont think anyone is enthusiastic about a war including the red shirts but what do you expect them to do when their rights are taken away by the elites? Should they try to arrange talks? Should they meekly go home and accept being enslaved again. Accept abysmal wages again? Accept no health insurance again?

This is what is coming sooner than later the elites will take away all the hard earned little progress that has been made in the past ten years. Suthep has declared war to wipe out the fledgling democracy of Thailand before it has a chance to grow strong and Jatuporn vows to defend it.

I hate to say it but the color of destiny is red.

What should they do? Boot the back sides of those that they vote for who cannot follow the constitution and the rule of law would be a good start instead of doing the classic it's someone else's fault. Edited May 10, 2014 by Roadman

[Publicus]

If it takes a civil war for the majority of the population to retain their civil rights then so be it.

Having been in a country where there was a military takeover (where I lost relatives) and having lost civilian relatives in a civil war in another SE Asian country I must admit that I am not keen to lose anymore relatives. In both of these SE Asian countries civil rights have not been restored to the level that currently exist in Thailand. So please excuse me for not sharing your enthusiasm.

I dont think anyone is enthusiastic about a war including the red shirts but what do you expect them to do when their rights are taken away by the elites? Should they try to arrange talks? Should they meekly go home and accept being enslaved again. Accept abysmal wages again? Accept no health insurance again?

This is what is coming sooner than later the elites will take away all the hard earned little progress that has been made in the past ten years. Suthep has declared war to wipe out the fledgling democracy of Thailand before it has a chance to grow strong and Jatuporn vows to defend it.

I hate to say it but the color of destiny is red.

Yes and the fact is well known which is why the ammart are scrambling to reverse the present and to stop the future ever arriving in Thailand.

The reds know the stakes here too. Those who oppose the present and the future need to know what the reds know, as indicated in the cite as follows, and to consider the clear implications:

Fascism is the unchecked rule of a class of the privileged, or relatively

rich, in power -- a full-scale assault on poor and working people.

Parliamentary institutions are usually set aside, or so demeaned as to be

meaningless. Elites issue direct orders, frequently through a populist

leader. Wages, any social safety net, working hour laws, labor laws; all

come under legal (and extra-legal) attack. The stick replaces the carrot.

Fascism is an element of the modern era, which carries forward elements

of feudalism. Fascism is irrationalism organized to sustain inequality and

authoritarianism.

http://www.thirdworl...ism_Gibson.html<http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/What_Is_Fascism_Gibson.html>

The above description is a general and inductive statement not written for any specific place or for any particular circumstance, but it accurately applies to contemporary Thailand. The reds know the nature of the struggle so it will be impossible to fool or to distract the reds and their supporters, which is why the eunuch Abhisit failed in his obvious attempts to do exactly that. Suthep fools no one to include those who defend and even praise him. Birds of a feather they are.

[noitom]

Thailand is a circus.

[kannot]

If thermy dont get involved with either side, there is going to be only 1 winner

The promotion of Buddhism throughout the country?

atheism would be far more sensible

[kannot]

Thailand is a circus.

where all the animals are going to be extinct

[rabas]

If it takes a civil war for the majority of the population to retain their civil rights then so be it.

Having been in a country where there was a military takeover (where I lost relatives) and having lost civilian relatives in a civil war in another SE Asian country I must admit that I am not keen to lose anymore relatives. In both of these SE Asian countries civil rights have not been restored to the level that currently exist in Thailand. So please excuse me for not sharing your enthusiasm.

I dont think anyone is enthusiastic about a war including the red shirts but what do you expect them to do when their rights are taken away by the elites? Should they try to arrange talks? Should they meekly go home and accept being enslaved again. Accept abysmal wages again? Accept no health insurance again?

This is what is coming sooner than later the elites will take away all the hard earned little progress that has been made in the past ten years. Suthep has declared war to wipe out the fledgling democracy of Thailand before it has a chance to grow strong and Jatuporn vows to defend it.

I hate to say it but the color of destiny is red.

Yes and the fact is well known which is why the ammart are scrambling to reverse the present and to stop the future ever arriving in Thailand.

The reds know the stakes here too. Those who oppose the present and the future need to know what the reds know, as indicated in the cite as follows, and to consider the clear implications:

Fascism is the unchecked rule of a class of the privileged, or relatively

rich, in power -- a full-scale assault on poor and working people.

Parliamentary institutions are usually set aside, or so demeaned as to be

meaningless. Elites issue direct orders, frequently through a populist

leader. Wages, any social safety net, working hour laws, labor laws; all

come under legal (and extra-legal) attack. The stick replaces the carrot.

Fascism is an element of the modern era, which carries forward elements

of feudalism. Fascism is irrationalism organized to sustain inequality and

authoritarianism.

http://www.thirdworl...ism_Gibson.html<http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/What_Is_Fascism_Gibson.html>

The above description is a general and inductive statement not written for any specific place or for any particular circumstance, but it accurately applies to contemporary Thailand. The reds know the nature of the struggle so it will be impossible to fool or to distract the reds and their supporters, which is why the eunuch Abhisit failed in his obvious attempts to do exactly that. Suthep fools no one to include those who defend and even praise him. Birds of a feather they are.

"All three buildings of the World Trade Center were destroyed by carefully planned, orchestrated and executed controlled demolition."

Wow, publicus, you had to search far and wide to find a definition to describe Thailand as fascist. The guy is a paranoid conspiracy theorist who argues, among a million other things, that Bush destroyed the World Trade centers. Not exactly a reliable reference.

I'm afraid your argument is just another prevarication, a canard, basically, a lie.

But, but, but, the author is a bit brilliant in his insanity, and I recommend anyone who seeks to break the shackles of believing what you are told, to see this site. In his rambling attempts to write down alternate truths, he hits enough points to make most complacent people uncomfortable. He is onto something. Forget the aliens, focus on do you believe what you are being told? (hint: answer should be no)

Lol, what is Suthep telling you.....

[sumtingwong]

Does this sound like Thailand? Red-shirts in particular. Same with Theocracy, Communism and Fascism,

totalitarianism

1. a system of highly centralized government in which one political party or group takes control and grants neither recognition nor tolerance to other political groups.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/totalitarianism

[timber]

It's interesting that the media keeps indicating that getting rid of Taksin created a unstable political environment.

Would appreciate someone pointing out to me when Thailand has had a stable political environment.

I guess the red shirts opinion is that they would rather have Taksin as King of Thailand, and that terrorists will

form their back up enforcement.

[Piichai]

Oh and it has airforce provided toilet buses. As I said, I cannot explain the significance, either you understand or your don't.

If you're implying that the Air Force is pro-Thaksin, you're sadly mistaken. The Air Force is *still* butthurt about Thaksin's budget cuts, which forced much of their F16s to remain grounded. Some point to this as the single reason the military (who is responsible for the area around Swampy) allowed the Yellow Shirts to march to the airport.

[Ricardo]

Thailand is a circus.

where all the animals are going to be extinct

Not the farangosaurs too !

[Piichai]

I hope there will be no civil war. Sadly it sounds like the red-shirts want one, based on the rhetoric of the red-shirts.

you see THIS is the problem - it's the 'red shirts' not the fake monk... Suthep and his thugs... it's those pesky 'red shirts'

you KNOW???... the ones who keep WINNING elections... terribly inconvenient to the yellow, elite ammart who want to keep raking in the cash

They win the election, but they don't rule justly.

Therein lies the problem.