Question about the honorific title of "doctor" in the Thai language

[attrayant]

I was reading the wiki page on the title of Doctor (meaning one who has obtained a Ph.D.) and came across this paragraph specific to Thailand:

The usage of Doctor (ดอกเตอร์) or Dr (ดร.) has been borrowed from English. It can be seen as a title in academic circles and in the mass media. In contrast to other academic titles (Professor, Associate Professor and Assistance [sic] Professor), the use of Doctor as a title has not been recognized by the Royal Institute of Thailand. Therefore, this title, in theory, cannot be used officially. For example, in court of justice where strictly formal Thai language is used, Dr cannot be mentioned as a person's title.

I found the last sentence most interesting. Can anyone here validate that statement about formal Thai eschewing the use of "doctor" as a title?

The reason I was browsing that page was because one of the teachers at work is constantly referred to as "doctor" by the other teachers, which sounds very odd to my ears. During lunch last week, I mentioned to some of the other teachers that in the US it's quite uncommon for a Ph.D. to be called doctor unless s/he is an actual medical doctor (and even then only in a professional setting. In a casual setting, honorific titles are never used). Even my college professors did not ask to be called doctor - we call them "Professor Smith". The same with Juris doctors - we never call them "Doctor Smith" or even "Attorney Smith", but simply "Mr. Smith".

I'd be interested to hear what's typical in other countries too - maybe this is a European thing that the Thais have picked up. Insisting that coworkers and peers call you by a professional title seems pompous to me, and reminds me of that Seinfeld episode where an orchestra leader insisted that all his friends call him "Maestro" wherever they went.

[AyG]

Calling someone by the correct title isn't polite, it's common courtesy.

I am addressed as Doctor since I am not a Professor, or any variant thereof, but that's in an academic environment. What I still find slightly disconcerting is that the title is used with my forename, not my surname.

[Mole]

Yes, here in Thailand it's normal to call people with a Phd for "Doctor". It's also the norm to use the title with the first name.

So instead of "Khun Somchai" it'd be "Dr. Somchai".

[Sheryl]

In Thai culture the use of titles is considered very important. Indeed, failing to preface a name by a title is generally thought to be rude and disrespectful. Hence the "Khun So-and-so" for those with no other title. Whereas in most western countries titles like Prof. or Dr. would often not be used outside the professional setting, in Thailand they are used by everyone and are life-long. A person who has ever been a teacher will be "acharn" to everyone, forever.

The reason for this is that it connects to social status. Thailand is a deeply hierarchal society -- it is not based on any sort of assumption of basic equality among people - and correct assignation of people's status is considered crucial.

BTW in colloquial speech "Doctor" is used not only for medical doctors and PHDs but also for people thought to possess any sort of skills/qualifications related to healing. Fortune-tellers are Mor Doo; (therapeutic) massuers/ese are "Mor Nuad" etc.

[AyG]

BTW in colloquial speech "Doctor" is used not only for medical doctors and PHDs but also for people thought to possess any sort of skills/qualifications related to healing. Fortune-tellers are Mor Doo; (therapeutic) massuers/ese are "Mor Nuad" etc.

There's a distinction between dɔ̀ktəə and mɔ̌ɔ.

My understanding is that the former is only used for people with a Ph.D. or other first class degree. It's not used for medical doctors.

The latter is used for for experts in healing of any type (including black magic). However, it's informal, and the more formal term for a medico is naay phɛ̂ɛt (male) or naaŋ phɛ̂ɛt (female).

Edit: hide sexist attitude

[Sheryl]

I don't think dɔ̀ktəə is Thai language, it's Thai pronounciation of an English word.

The Thai term for doctor -- both in general and when used as a title -- - is mɔ̌ɔ.

phɛ̂ɛt is a also Thai word for doctor but rarely used in my experience, and I have never encountered it used as an honorific.

[AyG]

I don't think dɔ̀ktəə is Thai language, it's Thai pronounciation of an English word.

The Thai term for doctor -- both in general and when used as a title -- - is mɔ̌ɔ.

phɛ̂ɛt is a also Thai word for doctor but rarely used in my experience, and I have never encountered it used as an honorific.

Yes, dɔ̀ktəə is a loan word. In my experience, it is the only word used for people with Ph.Ds - mɔ̌ɔ is never used. I've certainly never been addressed as mɔ̌ɔ.

phɛ̂ɛt is used much more in written language than in spoken, being more formal. I see NPh. written (in Thai script) outside the consulting rooms of the doctors at the hospital I frequent. (That's the abbreviation for naay phɛ̂ɛt.)

[Mole]

Yes, only "doctor" is used for people with Phd not for medical doctors. Medical doctors will be colloquially called หมอ mo, or formally นายแพทย์ nai phaet for men or แพทย์หญิง [not นางแพทย์] phaet ying for women.

Colloquially แพทย์ is never used as honorific.

For example หมอสมชาย and never แพทย์สมชาย.

Contrary to "doctor" which is not a recognized title, นายแพทย์ and แพทย์หญิง are recognized official titles.

แพทย์ is also used to describe the profession. For example ศัลยแพทย์ surgeon, ทันตแพทย์ dentist. Colloquially a surgeon is called หมอผ่าตัด and dentist is หมอฟัน.

หมอ is never used officially, and only แพทย์ is used.

However, people who are หมอดู and หมอนวด won't be called หมอ. Only medical doctors are called the honorific หมอ.

[attrayant]

Well this is enlightening, although I don't think I'll ever get used to it. I still expect to see somebody wearing a white lab coat and stethoscope when I hear "doctor". For what it's worth, I don't like my name being prefixed with "teacher". One of the first things I tell new students is that I want them to address me as Mr. [lastname].

[Mole]

So, are they addressing you as Mister Anderson, or Khun Anderson?

If they're saying Khun, you should let them address you with your name, such as "Khun Peter".

Khun is only used with first name and "Khun Anderson" would be as awkward as "Mr. Peter".

In matter of fact, you might as well get accustomed to the Thai ways and let your students address you as "Khun Peter". Unless of course you're an English teacher, which in this case, it'd be better to let them address you as "Mr. Anderson" in order to practice their English.

[attrayant]

I'm accustomed to Thai ways, but I teach in an English immersion program and we are asked to make the classroom feel as international (read: foreign) as possible, and to apply our own teaching styles in the classroom. E.g., students should get accustomed to saying "mister/ms", shaking hands, etc.

[keemapoot]

Yes, the English borrowed title "Dr." seems to be conferred on academics with doctorate degrees, and to a lesser degree on those in business or professions. In contrast, medical doctors in teaching hospitals are routinely called "Ajarn" by all the staff and patients, which is seen as conferring greater status and respect.

[harrry]

Yes, the English borrowed title "Dr." seems to be conferred on academics with doctorate degrees, and to a lesser degree on those in business or professions. In contrast, medical doctors in teaching hospitals are routinely called "Ajarn" by all the staff and patients, which is seen as conferring greater status and respect.

May be more from Latin.....and try not giving a German Phd the honorific he expects.

[Naam]

in Germany and Austria "Dr." will become an integral part of your family name (if you opt for it). once you opted for it the procedure to get rid of it is quite tedious. the funny thing in Thailand, as opposed to Germany is that official documents, such as driver's license, residence letter, etc. will not show the Dr. before the first name, e.g. not "Dr. Wilhelm Müller" but "Wilhelm Dr. Müller"

[FWIW]

A couple of things being mixed up here, namely legal usage (as in OP) and "common usage", so to speak.

As noted in the OP, the title "Dr" has no legal standing in Thailand. Thus, in any legal document, even though a person has a PhD, they will be referred to as "Mr" (or Miss, or Mrs as appropriate).

In academic circles, whatever title someone has (Dr through to Prof) they will be adressed as "Ajarn" plus first name.

[keemapoot]

in Germany and Austria "Dr." will become an integral part of your family name (if you opt for it). once you opted for it the procedure to get rid of it is quite tedious. the funny thing in Thailand, as opposed to Germany is that official documents, such as driver's license, residence letter, etc. will not show the Dr. before the first name, e.g. not "Dr. Wilhelm Müller" but "Wilhelm Dr. Müller"

It's quite funny in Thailand actually. If you have a doctorate in any discipline, and you are invited to speak at a business conference or other venue, they will always try to list you as "Dr. blah blah" even if you insist you have never referred to yourself that way.

[Naam]

Yes, the English borrowed title "Dr." seems to be conferred on academics with doctorate degrees, and to a lesser degree on those in business or professions. In contrast, medical doctors in teaching hospitals are routinely called "Ajarn" by all the staff and patients, which is seen as conferring greater status and respect.

May be more from Latin.....and try not giving a German Phd the honorific he expects.

the percentage of awarded "Ph.D." degrees in Germany is rather small. the overwhelming majority of awarded doctorates are "D.Sc." meaning accomplished research work and dissertation of the same subject in which a Master's Degree was achieved.

a Ph.D. is considered "Schmallspur" (narrow track) because it can be done in any subject not related to the Master's Degree and does not require huge research work/effort.

[harrry]

Yes, the English borrowed title "Dr." seems to be conferred on academics with doctorate degrees, and to a lesser degree on those in business or professions. In contrast, medical doctors in teaching hospitals are routinely called "Ajarn" by all the staff and patients, which is seen as conferring greater status and respect.

May be more from Latin.....and try not giving a German Phd the honorific he expects.

the percentage of awarded "Ph.D." degrees in Germany is rather small. the overwhelming majority of awarded doctorates are "D.Sc." meaning accomplished research work and dissertation of the same subject in which a Master's Degree was achieved.

a Ph.D. is considered "Schmallspur" (narrow track) because it can be done in any subject not related to the Master's Degree and does not require huge research work/effort.

I guess the person I knew I based that on had the D.SC. Compared to Australia where everyone at the university is refered to by their first name or if needed to identify by first and last name I was a little surprised by his seriousness about being recognised.

[Naam]

harry

I guess the person I knew I based that on had the D.SC. Compared to Australia where everyone at the university is refered to by their first name or if needed to identify by first and last name I was a little surprised by his seriousness about being recognised.

vhen it's doktoraits vee Tchermanns kann be very partikular

but that's nothing compared to what is going on in Austria where even lower academic degrees are used to address persons. not too long ago even a wife, who barely finished primary school, is addressed as "Mrs. Doktor" and the old lady of a low ranking policeman is addressed as "Mrs. Inspektor".

[Mole]

Ajarn is also used to address people who are in some kind of respected position and not necessary academic teacher or teacher at all.

For example most tattoo masters would be addressed as ajarn. Witch doctors and feng shui masters are also addressed as ajarn. Many public speakers are also called ajarn.

[p_brownstone]

It's not correct to call just any "teacher" "Ajarn".

It get's quite ridiculous when some 25 year old teaching English for 300 Baht an hour believes he is entitled to be addressed as "Ajarn".

Patrick

[CharlesHH]

I am DOCTOR Charles and don't you forget it!!!! Ph.D. doctor and proud of it.

[Mole]

No, it is not ridiculous to call a 25 year old "ajarn". If that 25 year old is really good at what he's doing, you bet there will be hoards of people calling him "ajarn".

It all depends. What does age have to do anything about this anyway?

Also, usually it is not yourself who determine that you should be called "ajarn" or not, but people around you who decide to call you that out of respect.

No "ajarn" would ever use the word "ajarn" to refer to themselves. It will always be other words like ผม ฉัน etc.

[p_brownstone]

No, it is not ridiculous to call a 25 year old "ajarn". If that 25 year old is really good at what he's doing, you bet there will be hoards of people calling him "ajarn".

It all depends. What does age have to do anything about this anyway?

To Quote my original Post -

" It get's quite ridiculous when some 25 year old teaching English for 300 Baht an hour believes he is entitled to be addressed as "Ajarn" "

Would you disagree with that? Do you think that such a person deserves to be called "Ajarn"?

And, as you yourself say :

"Also, usually it is not yourself who determine that you should be called "ajarn" or not, but people around you who decide to call you that out of respect."

My point is that some Farang with little or no real qualifications or in depth knowledge believes that, simply because he is an English "teacher", it entitles him to insist that he be addressed as "Ajarn" - that, in my view, is clearly nonsense.

Yes or no?

Patrick

[attrayant]

That's a mighty high horse you're on, there. Like it or not, "teacher" is apparently both an honorific and professional title in Thailand. Whether or not the title is "deserved" is up to your employer. If you have been hired as a teacher, it is because your employer believes that you have sufficient credentials/education/experience/whatever and your professional title will henceforth be "teacher". It's pretty straightforward.

[harrry]

That's a mighty high horse you're on, there. Like it or not, "teacher" is apparently both an honorific and professional title in Thailand. Whether or not the title is "deserved" is up to your employer. If you have been hired as a teacher, it is because your employer believes that you have sufficient credentials/education/experience/whatever and your professional title will henceforth be "teacher". It's pretty straightforward.

A teacher is not an ajahn. at the best most may deserve "kru" but even this is questionable.

[attrayant]

You'll have to flesh that out a bit more. I thought ajarn meant teacher. Have I been mislead or is there some subtle nuance of the word you're playing on?

[Mole]

You obviously missed my point completely.

NOBODY insists on calling themselves "ajarn". It is something other people decides to call them. Not something that one tells others to "please call me ajarn" or something like that.

If somebody goes around and insist that others call him "ajarn" (I can't even imagine how.. "Hello, I insist that you address me as "ajarn" please!), but people around him doesn't really feel like he's worthy enough, then nobody is really gonna call him "ajarn". Perhaps only when speaking directly with him, but people would certainly not call him that when he's not around.

I said it in my earlier post that being called "ajarn" doesn't a necessary mean that a particular person must have some kind of real qualifications.

It's something which people can call somebody out of respect and that they may see this person as some kind of mentor.

There's lots of public speakers out there who are called "ajarn" and they're not in academics or anything at all.

example:

Ajarn Jatuphol

Google image his name and you may have seen him before.

It seems you are the one who has some kind of issues with 25 year old teachers being called "ajarn.

If his pupils chose to call their 25 year old English teacher for "ajarn", then there is nobody else business to judge whether he's entitled to be called that or not!

Personally, if I see a 25 year old English teacher being called "ajarn" by his pupils, he would get instant respect from me with such a feat.

[p_brownstone]

You'll have to flesh that out a bit more. I thought ajarn meant teacher. Have I been mislead or is there some subtle nuance of the word you're playing on?

There is absolutely no "subtle nuance" here at all.

"Teacher" = Kru ... (OK, Khun Kru if you're feeling polite) is the word you use to address the chap you hire for Baht 300 an hour or so to teach your children the basics - Math, English, French - whatever.

Ajarn is an Honorific bestowed on those who have specific and long term in depth knowledge of a particular subject.

The two are in no way interchangeable.

Patrick

[harrry]

You obviously missed my point completely.

NOBODY insists on calling themselves "ajarn". It is something other people decides to call them. Not something that one tells others to "please call me ajarn" or something like that.

If somebody goes around and insist that others call him "ajarn" (I can't even imagine how.. "Hello, I insist that you address me as "ajarn" please!), but people around him doesn't really feel like he's worthy enough, then nobody is really gonna call him "ajarn". Perhaps only when speaking directly with him, but people would certainly not call him that when he's not around.

I said it in my earlier post that being called "ajarn" doesn't a necessary mean that a particular person must have some kind of real qualifications.

It's something which people can call somebody out of respect and that they may see this person as some kind of mentor.

There's lots of public speakers out there who are called "ajarn" and they're not in academics or anything at all.

example:

Ajarn Jatuphol

Google image his name and you may have seen him before.

It seems you are the one who has some kind of issues with 25 year old teachers being called "ajarn.

If his pupils chose to call their 25 year old English teacher for "ajarn", then there is nobody else business to judge whether he's entitled to be called that or not!

If you are refering to my post I have no issues of a 25 yeaar old teacher being called ajarn. ! have no issues with a 15 year old being called ajarn. I do have issues with language schoils that insist on the students calling their teachers ajarn or teachers who do so. Ajarn is a signifigent title of respect not something that can be demanded but something given freely by a person who respects the knowledge of another not a title bestowed by anyone other that the person who calls the teacher ajarn.

By the way monks can be called Ajarn too but they usually have to earn that title.