Unprofessional and unskilled English Teacher's do you feel guilty?

[bermondburi]

I agree that some non-native speakers with very heavy accents shouldn´t be teaching, but there are a lot of foreigners (like myself) who have trained and achieved a near perfect accent and are therefore very much qualified to teach if we have the linguistic knowledge.

Accents aside, I believe that non-natives often have much greater knowledge of English than natives, since the natives simply have acquired the language, and not really learned it.

Linguistic knowledge? How about knowing that the adverb comes before the verb and splits 'have' and the past participle in your text?: "natives have simply acquired..." :-)

how about stop being an English Nazi ?....

A normal native English speaker typically doesn't give a toss about adverb's, verbs and past participles, and one suspects this is one of the problems with some of the English teachers in Thailand, they are not teaching English, they are teaching grammar and this maybe is one of the reasons Thai's are not learning the language properly, they are bored sh*tless with adverb's, verbs and past participles.

I certainly know I was at school and I am a native speaker... .....How to get people to lose the enthusiasm for learning English.....teach them grammar...IMHO

http://walkinthewords.blogspot.com/2009/05/grocers-apostrophe.html

[thailiketoo]

" on the narrow, underfed shoulders of the English teacher." - like so much on this thread, a totally subjective and unsubstantiated comment

Jesus Christ. You could probably turn down the willingness to take offence a notch or two, you know. I'm sure you've got a fine, manly, frame just bursting to break out of your polycotton Big C shirt.

further totally unsubstantiated assumptions - haven't you ever heard of critical thinking?

Not the critical thinking song again. The total amount of information is doubling at a rate so rapid there is no time for anything but trying to keep up to date on facts. The days about teaching thinking went out in 1918.

[Zooheekock]

haven't you ever heard of critical thinking?

No never. But do tell. It sounds absolutely fascinating.

[Yooyung]

Of course being a native speaker is a good start. Having some kind of qualification relevant to teaching is a plus....and having a degree is now mandatory for teaching in private/public primary and high schools. In my experience being able to actually speak Thai is the most useful thing. I was constantly told a few years ago NEVER to speak Thai in the classroom. For a while i didnt, but eventually, faced with classes of 40 + kids that were to be taught 'conversation' I thought 'f**** it I am going to use my Thai language skills! It makes sense. My French teacher in high school could speak English....she HAD to...otherwise (now here it is folks, though I know it is hard for some to follow) we wouldnt have understood what the hell she was talking about! I am having very good results at Mathayom level teaching general conversation. The kids can ask me what I mean, I can explain it to them...expand on it...joke about it...and they seem to genuinelly have fun and respect me more because of it. I dont overuse it. Once i can see that the penny has dropped I stick with English. I honestly cannot stand people that cant see the value in learning Thai for teaching, its a pet peeve of mine. Usually they are people that havent bothered to learn Thai.....and yeah, they are 'language teachers'....what a crock...I dont say you have to be able to speak perfect Thai, but to say you should NEVER use it...well....

Anyway, I think the quality of teachers here has improved slightly. When I first came here it was a bit of a joke. The rules are tightening. I work with Philipinos at the moment. I think for lower levels they are fine, and they work hard. As for the Thai English teacher....well that is worthy of a whole new thread...

[Gillyflower]

What is all this talk about BRITISH accent. What do you mean, all of you who use the word so freely. Do you mean that it should be a broad Lancashire, Yorkshire, London, Cockney, Scottish, Northern Irish, Canadian, Australian. etc etc etc. All the people who speak with these accents are BRITISH.

Say what you mean and mean what you say.

I know someone from Alabama with a lovely strong accent from there. He teaches English too, to Thai children................

[Jimbolai]

Don't you just love the Falang in Thailand correcting another Falang how to pronounce Thai? Hilarious, and mostly measured by how many trips the Falang has made to LOS. I am Thaier than Thai is not a joke. but funny all the same.

[sean in udon]

His English is better than a lot of native Brits.

In what way ?....I keep hearing these sorts of comments, what benchmark are you using ?

I am still waiting for some to define what constitutes "good English".....please don't say its because they know where to put an apostrophe...

The correct use of apostrophes is an excellent benchmark for assessing an individual's (individuals? individuals'?) understanding of punctuation. An important part of written English. I'm a little disappointed you feel apostrophes are trivial.

As for Yasin's spoken English, first thing that springs to mind is 'bought' and 'brought'. At 15 he knew the difference between these 2 words and their correct use. Having worked in retail for over 20 years, there's a good percentage of native English speakers who are completely unaware that 'bought' even exists.

His accent is minimal. Native Turks, who spoke English, would say how easy my English was to understand relative say to a Brummy or Jordy. No, or minimal accent, makes a huge difference. I believe Yasin could speak anywhere in the UK and English speakers would understand him perfectly.

At my school I was in the A group (about 120), which meant we were taking GCEs. The B group (about 180) took CSEs. I don't know what the C group (about 30) did.

As Yasin's English Language skills are at least as good as mine, and using the numbers I've just quoted, that would put him in the top 36%.

I appreciate this is hardly scientific, but I think gives you a rough idea of my benchmark.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[wilcopops]

aught all these English Camps had Falang Teacher's, My bad on that one.

But I have met a few non native English Teacher in Bangkok that told me they do these weekend English Camps.....

I tawt I taw a puddy tat... sorry, but as it is about English Language Teachers I had to have a dig... ..can you please tell me what exactly is done at these weekend camps? I only ask because my brother in law is now headmaster of the village school, before, among other things,he was also the English teacher, yet he still cannot put one sentence together.

Most of these English camps are as AFJ says, some Thai English teachers that speak little or no English.

Sometimes a Filipino or two that sort of speak English.

I also know a Russian English teacher, and a Dutch English teacher, neither of which you would want teaching Thais English.

(But they all work cheap!)

The camps usually aren't worthwhile educationally, but might be a bit of fun.

Most Dutch people I have met speak better english than the English

What an utterly facile comment! How are you the arbiter of "good English" - if you think you know then you almost certainly don't know the first thing about what is or isn't English...and as for "good" - you have to be joking!

[wilcopops]

What is all this talk about BRITISH accent. What do you mean, all of you who use the word so freely. Do you mean that it should be a broad Lancashire, Yorkshire, London, Cockney, Scottish, Northern Irish, Canadian, Australian. etc etc etc. All the people who speak with these accents are BRITISH.

Say what you mean and mean what you say.

I know someone from Alabama with a lovely strong accent from there. He teaches English too, to Thai children................

It simply indicates they have no idea what an accent is and what it's connection to English is......everyone's an expert!

[sean in udon]

As an additional thought, I can have a normal 'full speed' conversation with Yasin, exactly as I would with a Brit. And not just general conversation. Want to talk computers with him, no problem. House construction, politics, banking, etc. He's just like a well educated Brit, but in a Turkish body

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Edited May 30, 2014 by sean in udon

[thailiketoo]

Is this Mr. Yasin. He seems OK to me although I don't detect a British accent.

[thailiketoo]

What is all this talk about BRITISH accent. What do you mean, all of you who use the word so freely. Do you mean that it should be a broad Lancashire, Yorkshire, London, Cockney, Scottish, Northern Irish, Canadian, Australian. etc etc etc. All the people who speak with these accents are BRITISH.

Say what you mean and mean what you say.

I know someone from Alabama with a lovely strong accent from there. He teaches English too, to Thai children................

It simply indicates they have no idea what an accent is and what it's connection to English is......everyone's an expert!

What an utterly facile comment! How are you the arbiter of "good English" - if you think you know then you almost certainly don't know the first thing about what is or isn't English...and as for "good" - you have to be joking!

Great line eh wot?

Edited May 30, 2014 by thailiketoo

[sean in udon]

Is this Mr. Yasin. He seems OK to me although I don't detect a British accent.

No, not the same one. Yasin has a good business head. Private tutoring = more money for less hours. And he's not struggling for students.

As an aside, I have enjoyed your little tête-à-tête with wilcopops

Enjoyed it a lot

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Edited May 30, 2014 by sean in udon

[wilcopops]

His English is better than a lot of native Brits.

In what way ?....I keep hearing these sorts of comments, what benchmark are you using ?

I am still waiting for some to define what constitutes "good English".....please don't say its because they know where to put an apostrophe...

The correct use of apostrophes is an excellent benchmark for assessing an individual's (individuals? individuals'?) understanding of punctuation. An important part of written English. I'm a little disappointed you feel apostrophes are trivial.

As for Yasin's spoken English, first thing that springs to mind is 'bought' and 'brought'. At 15 he knew the difference between these 2 words and their correct use. Having worked in retail for over 20 years, there's a good percentage of native English speakers who are completely unaware that 'bought' even exists.

His accent is minimal. Native Turks, who spoke English, would say how easy my English was to understand relative say to a Brummy or Jordy. No, or minimal accent, makes a huge difference. I believe Yasin could speak anywhere in the UK and English speakers would understand him perfectly.

At my school I was in the A group (about 120), which meant we were taking GCEs. The B group (about 180) took CSEs. I don't know what the C group (about 30) did.

As Yasin's English Language skills are at least as good as mine, and using the numbers I've just quoted, that would put him in the top 36%.

I appreciate this is hardly scientific, but I think gives you a rough idea of my benchmark.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

I'd say that is a totally arbitrary benchmark. I know of many people who have problems with apostrophes most commonly as possessives with irregular plurals and compound nouns - in fact I'd be willing to bet that almost all posters - including yourself - on this thread would use them incorrectly from time to time (not that that says much!)

[schondie]

Something I spotted in this thread is that there is no mention of the cost of the camp. Depending on the company involved it may have been only a chance of an "exotic experience" for a bunch of ragtag backpackers to bore their new university pals with during fresher's week.

1000 baht and free food for a sixteen hour day probably wouldn't appeal to an experienced English teacher regardless of nationality.

[Zooheekock]

It simply indicates they have no idea what an accent is and what it's connection to English is......everyone's an expert!

its.

And it's a perfectly reasonable quesiton since there is no 'British' accent. I guess what people mean is MRP or SSBE but that's one minority accent, albeit a high prestige one.

[Naam]

You obviously not read my above comment properly. Mandatory....not optionally.

Yes I did read your post - Its the same in my country I was forced to learn French and German!

As you claim that only native speakers teach languages in your country it must be a very small country.

Liechtenstein/ Luxemburg ?

Nope - Please try again!

Christmas Islands?

[Naam]

What is all this talk about BRITISH accent. What do you mean, all of you who use the word so freely. Do you mean that it should be a broad Lancashire, Yorkshire, London, Cockney, Scottish, Northern Irish, Canadian, Australian. etc etc etc. All the people who speak with these accents are BRITISH.

Say what you mean and mean what you say.

I know someone from Alabama with a lovely strong accent from there. He teaches English too, to Thai children................

you mean Bubba from Birmingham, Al is now teaching Redneckish in Thailand?

[wilcopops]

You obviously not read my above comment properly. Mandatory....not optionally.

Yes I did read your post - Its the same in my country I was forced to learn French and German!

As you claim that only native speakers teach languages in your country it must be a very small country.

Liechtenstein/ Luxemburg ?

Nope - Please try again!

Christmas Islands?

I think it's reasonable to assume that the poster making the claim doesn't actually know what a "native speaker" is.

of course in a country like Switzerland where there a 4 languages then this might be possible within those languages.

Edited May 30, 2014 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

...and there you have a p[erfect example of what I'm talking about....can't read/comprehend a post and thinks they know enough to correct English but actually gets it ALL wrong - QED

(I'd be interested to hear your ideas of use of "they" as 3rd person singular and the concomitant verbal agreements).

I think anyone would agree that if the average Thai spoke English on the level of an American, Canadian or British 7 year old child the English teachers of Thailand would have more than accomplished their goals.

Keeping with that thought I asked the 7 year old next door your question, "your ideas of use of "they" as 3rd person singular and the concomitant verbal agreements."

"7 year old child" - OK How have you decided on that particular criteria? - do you know how to assess language ability? I think not -Do you realise for instance what someone with a "7 year old" reading ability is expected to achieve - well it is a system used to quantify language ability and you seem completely unaware of this. For instance can you read and understand most of the SUN newspaper in the UK? Good! That means you have have the reading ability of a 7 year old.......recognise anything there?

Most newspapers are written at a 6th grade level. For the average Thai person a 7 year old native speaking and comprehension level would be great.

further evidence you don't have a clue what you are talking about

[chrisinth]

Well, the arguments are certainly on the go!

While the topic of unprofessional and unskilled teachers is still on the go, perhaps someone from the educational field in Thailand could answer these simple questions for me:

What educational advantage for the children would a person with a degree in geology (read any non-educational degree) and a TEFL certificate as an English teacher?

Is it because the applicant has shown the ability of commitment for 4 years achieving his/her degree and therefore would make a good teacher, or did the achievement in acquiring said degree improve his English teaching levels to a level where teaching children would be easier?

Like it or not kiddies, without an educational (language) degree that is all that is required for at least two years (until they acquire their teaching license) to employ anyone to teach English.

So outside of English language or grammar, how many teachers in Thailand, native speaking or otherwise, are truly qualified to teach the children?

At the end of the day, it is all about the children..................

As a disclaimer, I am not connected to the educational system and the points above are secondhand, but I believe them to be true. Until the educational system in Thailand is re-vamped, both on the financial (wages, both Thai and falang) and on the teacher employment requirements, IMHO, nothing will change soon.

BTW, this is not generalization as such, there are a lot of really good, dedicated teachers out there, qualified or not.

[wilcopops]

Well, the arguments are certainly on the go!

While the topic of unprofessional and unskilled teachers is still on the go, perhaps someone from the educational field in Thailand could answer these simple questions for me:

What educational advantage for the children would a person with a degree in geology (read any non-educational degree) and a TEFL certificate as an English teacher?

Is it because the applicant has shown the ability of commitment for 4 years achieving his/her degree and therefore would make a good teacher, or did the achievement in acquiring said degree improve his English teaching levels to a level where teaching children would be easier?

Like it or not kiddies, without an educational (language) degree that is all that is required for at least two years (until they acquire their teaching license) to employ anyone to teach English.

So outside of English language or grammar, how many teachers in Thailand, native speaking or otherwise, are truly qualified to teach the children?

At the end of the day, it is all about the children..................

As a disclaimer, I am not connected to the educational system and the points above are secondhand, but I believe them to be true. Until the educational system in Thailand is re-vamped, both on the financial (wages, both Thai and falang) and on the teacher employment requirements, IMHO, nothing will change soon.

BTW, this is not generalization as such, there are a lot of really good, dedicated teachers out there, qualified or not.

You don't need a disclaimer - it is quite obvious by the nature of the questions you are just another self-appointed expert.

These sort of questions that really have little or no relevance to teaching, education or learning are repeatedly asked by those who are convinced that the answers must be simple. The first thing you might do is find out REALLY what training is needed, who can train who can be trained and then how they might impart English to others. Then think about WHO is learning English,what sort of English, how why and when they will study/use it and think about how to v\bring these elements together.

The fact that you think it's only children who study English shows how myopic you perspective is on the subject.

Teaching is a profession - English is a subject - a writer may be brilliant at English but useless at teaching. ...and vice versa - (how do you think students get to be more advanced tun their teachers?)

[sean in udon]

His English is better than a lot of native Brits.

In what way ?....I keep hearing these sorts of comments, what benchmark are you using ?

I am still waiting for some to define what constitutes "good English".....please don't say its because they know where to put an apostrophe...

The correct use of apostrophes is an excellent benchmark for assessing an individual's (individuals? individuals'?) understanding of punctuation. An important part of written English. I'm a little disappointed you feel apostrophes are trivial.

As for Yasin's spoken English, first thing that springs to mind is 'bought' and 'brought'. At 15 he knew the difference between these 2 words and their correct use. Having worked in retail for over 20 years, there's a good percentage of native English speakers who are completely unaware that 'bought' even exists.

His accent is minimal. Native Turks, who spoke English, would say how easy my English was to understand relative say to a Brummy or Jordy. No, or minimal accent, makes a huge difference. I believe Yasin could speak anywhere in the UK and English speakers would understand him perfectly.

At my school I was in the A group (about 120), which meant we were taking GCEs. The B group (about 180) took CSEs. I don't know what the C group (about 30) did.

As Yasin's English Language skills are at least as good as mine, and using the numbers I've just quoted, that would put him in the top 36%.

I appreciate this is hardly scientific, but I think gives you a rough idea of my benchmark.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

I'd say that is a totally arbitrary benchmark. I know of many people who have problems with apostrophes most commonly as possessives with irregular plurals and compound nouns - in fact I'd be willing to bet that almost all posters - including yourself - on this thread would use them incorrectly from time to time (not that that says much!)

Punctuation was one of my strong points, back in the day.

The school I went to was a comprehensive, but a couple of years before I started there was a grammar school. Most of the teachers who taught me were the former grammar school teachers.

My English Language teacher, Mr. Clements was a strict disciplinarian and a stickler for detail. We were only allowed to have a pen and our exercise book on the table with us. He hated ball point pens and introduced the majority of us to fountain pens. If your pen ran dry, you had to put your hand up to get permission to get a refill from your bag.

But if you said 'Sir. My pen has run out' he would stop the class, walk to the door, open it and say 'well you had better run after it then'. Although he was a pain in the a**e at times, he was an excellent teacher and I am grateful for his part in my education. Mr. Clements was also extremely fiery. If you said something he considered stupid, he would instantly enter the red zone.....OH MY GOD...disciplinarian, stickler for detail, fiery. wilcopops, you are Mr. Clements! Hello sir. I was in your class from 1975 to 1978

Much as I would enjoy getting into a proper debate with you, I'm too old and tired to bother. And it's much more fun reading your diatribes, rather than getting personally involved. Now if thailiketoo would like to fight my corner for me, I'd be more than happy.

Alternatively, how about the three of us get together, get drunk and howl at the moon - my favourite option.

Hugs and kisses to you wilcopops.

[BWPattaya]

To teach a language, does 1 need to be a native speaker ?

In my old Grammar School I had an Englishman teaching me French, another Englishman teaching me Latin, another teaching me Ancient Greek.............and a German teaching English.

[wilcopops]

The OP - has made a sad and un-thought out statement - it is based on nothing - no knowledge of English, no knowledge of teaching, just upon his own ill-informed perspective, and he appears not to appreciate how limited that is. Then the thread has just filled with some of the most i ill-informed drivel i think I've ever read on ThaiVisa - and that is saying something.

Why on earth don't people spend just a little time getting to know what education is and what English language is before they start voicing ridiculous opinions or criticising things they simply don't understand?

It’s not a matter of "how qualified" - bits of paper are meaningless on their own, and gauging someone’s English is nothing to do with how satisfied YOU are when talking to someone in the street. Language is huge and most people, even native speakers only use a tine bit of it day to day.......when you learn it as a second or third language, you select (or it is selected for you) elements that are appropriate for your situation ....child adult, academic businessperson, scientist etc. etc. .......and a lot of aspects of English (or any other language for that matter) don't require a "native speaker" to be taught - native speakers are primarily used for a method of teaching called TEFL/TESOL but this isn't the only way to learn a language there a dozens of methods.

As for grammar - well most people who talk about grammar just make me laugh. They simply have no idea what it is and often are just referring to syntax or even dialect or regional variation or worse their own misconception of grammar from schooldays. Often the grammar they were taught at school was wrong yet they still cling on to the idea that there is a "right" or "wrong" way to speak English. Totally ignoring that language involved writing reading and listening too or that all aspects of language are NON-STATIC - but they wouldn't know that would they?

The other day, I found some nitwit trying to tell his son that "isn't" wasn't correct English as it was "is not" - he didn't even know he had said "isn't" about half a dozen times in his totally wrong explanation. He then goes off to the pub to tell all his friends how crap his son's Thai English teacher is!!!!

This thread is FULL of this sort of stuff - so full it needs an enema!

[wilcopops]

To teach a language, does 1 need to be a native speaker ?

In my old Grammar School I had an Englishman teaching me French, another Englishman teaching me Latin, another teaching me Ancient Greek.............and a German teaching English.

It would have been interesting to have a native speaker teaching Latin....or Ancient Greek

[wilcopops]

In what way ?....I keep hearing these sorts of comments, what benchmark are you using ?

I am still waiting for some to define what constitutes "good English".....please don't say its because they know where to put an apostrophe...

The correct use of apostrophes is an excellent benchmark for assessing an individual's (individuals? individuals'?) understanding of punctuation. An important part of written English. I'm a little disappointed you feel apostrophes are trivial.

As for Yasin's spoken English, first thing that springs to mind is 'bought' and 'brought'. At 15 he knew the difference between these 2 words and their correct use. Having worked in retail for over 20 years, there's a good percentage of native English speakers who are completely unaware that 'bought' even exists.

His accent is minimal. Native Turks, who spoke English, would say how easy my English was to understand relative say to a Brummy or Jordy. No, or minimal accent, makes a huge difference. I believe Yasin could speak anywhere in the UK and English speakers would understand him perfectly.

At my school I was in the A group (about 120), which meant we were taking GCEs. The B group (about 180) took CSEs. I don't know what the C group (about 30) did.

As Yasin's English Language skills are at least as good as mine, and using the numbers I've just quoted, that would put him in the top 36%.

I appreciate this is hardly scientific, but I think gives you a rough idea of my benchmark.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

I'd say that is a totally arbitrary benchmark. I know of many people who have problems with apostrophes most commonly as possessives with irregular plurals and compound nouns - in fact I'd be willing to bet that almost all posters - including yourself - on this thread would use them incorrectly from time to time (not that that says much!)

Punctuation was one of my strong points, back in the day.

The school I went to was a comprehensive, but a couple of years before I started there was a grammar school. Most of the teachers who taught me were the former grammar school teachers.

My English Language teacher, Mr. Clements was a strict disciplinarian and a stickler for detail. We were only allowed to have a pen and our exercise book on the table with us. He hated ball point pens and introduced the majority of us to fountain pens. If your pen ran dry, you had to put your hand up to get permission to get a refill from your bag.

But if you said 'Sir. My pen has run out' he would stop the class, walk to the door, open it and say 'well you had better run after it then'. Although he was a pain in the a**e at times, he was an excellent teacher and I am grateful for his part in my education. Mr. Clements was also extremely fiery. If you said something he considered stupid, he would instantly enter the red zone.....OH MY GOD...disciplinarian, stickler for detail, fiery. wilcopops, you are Mr. Clements! Hello sir. I was in your class from 1975 to 1978

Much as I would enjoy getting into a proper debate with you, I'm too old and tired to bother. And it's much more fun reading your diatribes, rather than getting personally involved. Now if thailiketoo would like to fight my corner for me, I'd be more than happy.

Alternatively, how about the three of us get together, get drunk and howl at the moon - my favourite option.

Hugs and kisses to you wilcopops.

"'well you had better run after it then'. - so he clearly didn't understand English usage then did he? yet you still believe he was a good teacher despite that. Maybe you just accepted what he taught without question?

I don't get drunk

[wilcopops]

Punctuation is not a strong pint for me but you might want to check the current debates on commas.

[Gillyflower]

To Thailiketoo

I don't think that Wilcopops nor myself mentioned 'good English'. We were both talking about accents. YOU should learn to READ English.

Sean in Udon.

Your Mr. Clements sounds like the whole team of English teachers that I had. We had 3 periods of English per day. Two of grammar and one of Eng. Lit.I went to one of those schools that were soundly beaten at the yearly sports, but we won all the BIG intello prizes.

[sean in udon]

wilcopops, that means you're not Mr. Clements. I'm disappointed

I don't get drunk

I'm shocked.
How about me and thailiketoo get drunk and you berate us?


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Edited May 30, 2014 by sean in udon