NACC questions officials in Thai rice corruption case

[rametindallas]

..and who has oversight of the NACC?

The courts. Every charge laid by the NACC must be proven in a court of law. Defense attorneys will be present. If your response is, 'and who has oversight of the courts?', then I can't help you. The country is beyond salvation at that point. Why do you even care? Are you related to any of those you think will be 'framed'? What I want to know is: who has oversight over you?

[rametindallas]

So would I be right then is presuming that the NACC were able to complete an audit of all the warehouses, within the last 10 days, and have indeed found a discrepancy of close to 300 Million tonnes, but had been unable to do this over the past 2 years?

The reason I'm asking is did they not already state that they didn't have the resources or the finances to check over 2-300 warehouses, where the ice was alleged to have gone missing?

And yet, now that the Military are now in power, they were able to indeed are able to present a clear case of missing rice, in the quantities that was allegedly "missing" in the space of 10 days?

They're in the wrong line of work if that's the case, they should be coppers, if this is indeed the case and there's 300M Tonnes missing, then it's quite right that those responsible for it's theft, are punished accordingly.

have indeed found a discrepancy of close to 300 Million tonnes, but had been unable to do this over the past 2 years?

Straw man argument, much?

[DrDweeb]

So would I be right then is presuming that the NACC were able to complete an audit of all the warehouses, within the last 10 days, and have indeed found a discrepancy of close to 300 Million tonnes, but had been unable to do this over the past 2 years?

The reason I'm asking is did they not already state that they didn't have the resources or the finances to check over 2-300 warehouses, where the ice was alleged to have gone missing?

And yet, now that the Military are now in power, they were able to indeed are able to present a clear case of missing rice, in the quantities that was allegedly "missing" in the space of 10 days?

They're in the wrong line of work if that's the case, they should be coppers, if this is indeed the case and there's 300M Tonnes missing, then it's quite right that those responsible for it's theft, are punished accordingly.

Extra zero everywhere. Surely the OP says 2.8 million tons?.

Oops my bad!! sorry about that

I know this may sound very wrong, apart from the revenue lost/stolen it's 3 million tonnes less to have to try and shift onto the market, when the market is saturated and the price is very low, the supply is greater than the demand at the moment, and someone is going to have to make a brutal decision as to how they're going to get rid/sell the current stock pile, they're going to have to accept massive loses, and perhaps write off a portion of it.

Is the subsidy scheme now dead, or is there farmers still committed to selling their rice to the Junta? Isn't it madness to keep accepting stock, when they can't shift what they currently have? Would it not be a better idea to subsidise the farmers to STOP production for 12-18 months, to allow the Junta to sell off/destroy their current stock? The Millers are maybe now wringing their hands if the scheme is dead, as it means more business for them, for these guys, this is the silver lining in their cloud, and they know they can basically hold the farmers to ransom and pay them what they want, as in take it or leave it ?

I hope that those responsible for the thefts are rightly punished,

Fat Haggis: A lotof the rice in stock has not been looked after properly. Also the longer you keep it, the lower the price. I would suggest that the scheme should be abandoned and in its place the junta should commit to a massive irrigation scheme for Isaan: they can divert the excess water that sometimes floods Bangkok etc into an ecological solution for Isaan farmers who often face food poverty because of the lack of water. Also please understand that the rice scheme was not designed to enrich farmers. Thaksin thought that by withdrawing the rice from the world market the world price would increase beyond the 40% increase that the farmers were allegedly receiving. I say allegedly because many farm produce (not just rice) is sold via series of middlemen with cash being siphoned off along the way. Which means farmers get a lot less than the advertised price for their products. Scams are not just confined to rice!

Isaan = Plateau

Bangkok = River delta

Methinks it will be an uphill battle to divert water to Isaan

[DrDweeb]

Impeachment and ban in a democracy is supposed to be HARD, it has to be a serious criminal act, not something that amounts to a judgement call-where the nacc accuses the elected government of 'incompetence'.

Indeed, hard it must be, as the Republicans tried to impeach Pres. Clinton for getting a blow job!

[Robroona]

..and who has oversight of the NACC?

You, if you like. You appear to be against this investigation so you can add your well known impartiality to it

[JRSoul]

Impeachment and ban in a democracy is supposed to be HARD, it has to be a serious criminal act, not something that amounts to a judgement call-where the nacc accuses the elected government of 'incompetence'.

Indeed, hard it must be, as the Republicans tried to impeach Pres. Clinton for getting a blow job!

You forgot Samak's cooking show, relevant because in both cases the major offence was lying about it when asked. As in "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky." Neither my wife or US society accept that a blowjob is NOT sexual relations.

[rametindallas]

So would I be right then is presuming that the NACC were able to complete an audit of all the warehouses, within the last 10 days, and have indeed found a discrepancy of close to 300 Million tonnes, but had been unable to do this over the past 2 years?

The reason I'm asking is did they not already state that they didn't have the resources or the finances to check over 2-300 warehouses, where the ice was alleged to have gone missing?

And yet, now that the Military are now in power, they were able to indeed are able to present a clear case of missing rice, in the quantities that was allegedly "missing" in the space of 10 days?

They're in the wrong line of work if that's the case, they should be coppers, if this is indeed the case and there's 300M Tonnes missing, then it's quite right that those responsible for it's theft, are punished accordingly.

That the rice has been missing has been known for a long time. With the boss running things no one had the courage to stand up. Remember the last woman in the finance department who insisted that the program was generating a loss much larger than being publicly stated. Where did her career go. It went down a long and lonely road. That alone tells you all you need to know.

Her name is Supa and she was transferred but had to be reinstated and now is a member of the NACC which is why they know where to look for the 'dead bodies'. Calling these people in to testify in the order they are being called is to trap them, and others, into incriminating the most people involved. The NACC know a lot more than it can prove now but that will be changing very soon. One suicide by a mill owner, already. many more to flee. The rice 'gravy train' has derailed; just like SRT.

[pkspeaker]

..and of course the impeachment vs. Clinton failed, even though he lied about having sexual relations, the assumption is that he should not have been asked such an absurd question about his personal life in the first place..

In Yinglucks case, had the coup not removed the government, the impeachment probably would have failed to garner the 3/5s necessary to impeach, even with the 'group of 40 senators' and half the senate having been appointed by the 2006 junta, from what I was reading it seemed unlikely that it was going to happen, too many of the Senators were going to do their job with integrity and reject the obviously politically motivated impeachment; meanwhile her removal from the caretaker PM position by the CC was just that-removal from the caretaker PM position, once a successful election was held, she was set to be the next PM..

The military understood this and that's the reason they went forward with the coup, once they realized that the establishments 'judicial coup' was failing.. they went back to the old way of doing things..

Edited June 4, 2014 by pkspeaker

[rametindallas]

So would I be right then is presuming that the NACC were able to complete an audit of all the warehouses, within the last 10 days, and have indeed found a discrepancy of close to 300 Million tonnes, but had been unable to do this over the past 2 years?

The reason I'm asking is did they not already state that they didn't have the resources or the finances to check over 2-300 warehouses, where the ice was alleged to have gone missing?

And yet, now that the Military are now in power, they were able to indeed are able to present a clear case of missing rice, in the quantities that was allegedly "missing" in the space of 10 days?

They're in the wrong line of work if that's the case, they should be coppers, if this is indeed the case and there's 300M Tonnes missing, then it's quite right that those responsible for it's theft, are punished accordingly.

Extra zero everywhere. Surely the OP says 2.8 million tons?.

Oops my bad!! sorry about that

I know this may sound very wrong, apart from the revenue lost/stolen it's 3 million tonnes less to have to try and shift onto the market, when the market is saturated and the price is very low, the supply is greater than the demand at the moment, and someone is going to have to make a brutal decision as to how they're going to get rid/sell the current stock pile, they're going to have to accept massive loses, and perhaps write off a portion of it.

Is the subsidy scheme now dead, or is there farmers still committed to selling their rice to the Junta? Isn't it madness to keep accepting stock, when they can't shift what they currently have? Would it not be a better idea to subsidise the farmers to STOP production for 12-18 months, to allow the Junta to sell off/destroy their current stock? The Millers are maybe now wringing their hands if the scheme is dead, as it means more business for them, for these guys, this is the silver lining in their cloud, and they know they can basically hold the farmers to ransom and pay them what they want, as in take it or leave it ?

I hope that those responsible for the thefts are rightly punished,

FH, I'm very concerned that you do not seem to grasp the gravity of the missing 2.8 tons. I will go through your post, point by point and try to explain it for you.

I know this may sound very wrong, apart from the revenue lost/stolen it's 3 million tonnes less to have to try and shift onto the market, when the market is saturated and the price is very low, the supply is greater than the demand at the moment, and someone is going to have to make a brutal decision as to how they're going to get rid/sell the current stock pile, they're going to have to accept massive loses, and perhaps write off a portion of it.

The three million tons was paid for by the taxpayers at 40% above retail price and though it is less that the government has to shift, they will get zero return on it. (100% loss).

As far as someone having to make a 'brutal decision', there is no decision to me made. It is a given that the rice must be sold to keep the losses from going over 500 billion Baht and the THEY of 'they're going to have to accept massive losses' is the taxpayer. (you should use that word more in your post because that is who the immediate victim is in this scheme; the farmers will fall victim when they cannot sell their rice to anyone). As for writing off a portion of it, the government knew it was going to lose the 40% premium they paid when they eventually sold the rice. When they didn't sell the rice as it came in (to replenish the money fund to continue the money losing subsidy program) but instead 'hoarded' it, they instantly compounded the problem because rice cannot be stored indefinitely without deterioration and spoilage and the borrowed money ran out faster because the program was not getting any income from hoarded rice but costing the taxpayer in construction of new storage facilities and rental costs for rice storage. (fat checks for those boys)

Is the subsidy scheme now dead, or is there farmers still committed to selling their rice to the Junta? Isn't it madness to keep accepting stock, when they can't shift what they currently have?

You shouldn't ask a question and then argue the positive answer to it; especially since the answer you gave yourself is false. The current, military government is not buying any more subsidized rice and had to borrow 130 billion more Baht to pay off farmers who had already sold their rice in the past but had not been paid (do try to keep up)

Would it not be a better idea to subsidise the farmers to STOP production for 12-18 months,

The government has a three year supply of rice in storage and many of the farmers expanded into growing rice on unsuitable land and in any case, the government cannot afford to subsidize non-productive farmers. That is not the definition of subsidize, that is just giving people money for doing nothing but owning/controlling rice land.

to allow the Junta to sell off/destroy their current stock? The Millers are maybe now wringing their hands if the scheme is dead, as it means more business for them, for these guys, this is the silver lining in their cloud,

This is less than good news for millers as who will buy the rice they buy from the farmer after it is milled?

and they know they can basically hold the farmers to ransom and pay them what they want, as in take it or leave it ?

Is that the legacy of PTP helping the farmer? Putting them in a position to be ripped off by the millers? You call that a 'silver lining'. The only people who lined their pockets with silver were the Shins and their cronies; at the direct expense of the taxpayers. Thaksin got his 'pound of flesh' for his money that was frozen for corruption.

I hope that those responsible for the thefts Rice Support Scheme are rightly punished,

Your lack of comprehension of what is/has happened is breath-taking. I have barely touched the scope and depth of the ruinous Scheme (A very large book could be written to explain what happened). Please stop commenting on this subject as you are going to confuse some forum members here who also have a tenuous grasp of what has happened.

[rametindallas]

..and who has oversight of the NACC?

They are basically independent which immediately placed them as another of Thaksin's enemies seeing he couldn't buy or threaten them. Checks and balances are such wonderful tools to keep criminals, sorry Thai politicians to points of law and order.

They report to the Senate, which currently does'nt matter diddly squat, as the other group they report to (which is the real karma bitch for Yingluck and her brothers lackeys) is the criminal court.

The NACC does not report to the Senate which no longer exists. It is an independent agency under the 2007 Constitution which no longer exists.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Then you can bet that future defendants will be claiming that the NACC had no authority to investigate them. Similar excuses were made about the Assets Scrutiny Committee, set up by the 2006 coup-makers, having no constitution authority to discover all the corruption it uncovered.

[rametindallas]

Just to see this woman Tyrell Haberkorn talk makes me realise how lucky we are to have the army in place. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-30/how-the-thai-coup-effects-provincial-thailand/5491290 How much is Thaksin paying this idiot?

Tyrell Haberkorn, "Thailand's most repressive regime in forty years". This woman lost any credibility she may have had when she told that lie. The current military regime has only been in power less than two weeks and arrested fewer than 300 persons and that is enough for this communist to make such a wild a false claim of "Thailand's most repressive regime in forty years"? Propagandist.

[rametindallas]

Impeachment and ban in a democracy is supposed to be HARD, it has to be a serious criminal act, not something that amounts to a judgement call-where the nacc accuses the elected government of 'incompetence'.

Indeed, hard it must be, as the Republicans tried to impeach Pres. Clinton for getting a blow job!

They didn't 'try', they DID impeach Clinton. They did not impeach him for getting a BJ but for lying in a formal hearing. BTW, Clinton is my second favorite president of the 20th century in case you think I am biased against him.

[Baerboxer]

Just to see this woman Tyrell Haberkorn talk makes me realise how lucky we are to have the army in place. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-30/how-the-thai-coup-effects-provincial-thailand/5491290 How much is Thaksin paying this idiot?

Oh!!! My God!!!

Indeed. What a pathetically one sided interview purely aimed at pushing her particular views of how society should be. She completely ignores the fact that Thaksin is a convicted fugitive criminal; or that his sister's government were trying to whitewash his conviction and the 15 serious cases waiting his return; or the blatant lying and criminal actions.

I can imagine her defending Mugabe as an anti-colonialist people's champion or Causcescu and those of similar ilk.

She is either very naieve or allowing herself to be used for her own agenda.

Her source(s) of information are?

The only negative she had to say was Thaksin's appalling HR record in the South, oh really? Even then she tried to mitigate it by saying governments since Thaksin hadn't done any better. Of course she left out that for nearly all of that time it was parties he controlled in power!

Double standards - wonder where she gets all her funding from? Any paid "research" ongoing?

[Baerboxer]

Just to see this woman Tyrell Haberkorn talk makes me realise how lucky we are to have the army in place. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-30/how-the-thai-coup-effects-provincial-thailand/5491290 How much is Thaksin paying this idiot?

Tyrell Haberkorn, "Thailand's most repressive regime in forty years". This woman lost any credibility she may have had when she told that lie. The current military regime has only been in power less than two weeks and arrested fewer than 300 persons and that is enough for this communist to make such a wild a false claim of "Thailand's most repressive regime in forty years"? Propagandist.

Yes. And as a purported academic she should have been willing to support that statement with facts. Pity the interviewer didn't challenge her.

Clearly she thought the Thamasat Uni protests and reactions nothing compared to this.

And Thaksins blatant gagging of the press, intimidation of opposition through creative use of the law, extra judicial killings, and disappearances - all acceptable were they?

[Baerboxer]

..and of course the impeachment vs. Clinton failed, even though he lied about having sexual relations, the assumption is that he should not have been asked such an absurd question about his personal life in the first place..

In Yinglucks case, had the coup not removed the government, the impeachment probably would have failed to garner the 3/5s necessary to impeach, even with the 'group of 40 senators' and half the senate having been appointed by the 2006 junta, from what I was reading it seemed unlikely that it was going to happen, too many of the Senators were going to do their job with integrity and reject the obviously politically motivated impeachment; meanwhile her removal from the caretaker PM position by the CC was just that-removal from the caretaker PM position, once a successful election was held, she was set to be the next PM..

The military understood this and that's the reason they went forward with the coup, once they realized that the establishments 'judicial coup' was failing.. they went back to the old way of doing things..

So you believe lying to the public, when in a key government role is acceptable. Even lying under oath?

The issue then becomes, who decides which lies are acceptable "little white lies" and which are big whoppers that are totally unacceptable?

Yingluck chose to transfer a person, knowing full well it was against the rules, purely to create a situation where her family, party and friends would benefit for the resultant moves. That's why her decision was reversed, not following the correct procedures, and why she was removed, blatant nepotism.

Judicial coup - nonsense. Administering the law - as it stands. The Shiniwattras have broken laws and some members convicted of crimes, others facing charges or have outstanding charges. What does that tell you about their attitude towards respecting and adhering to the law?

The Yingluck administration and their joke CAPO were failing to prevent murder and serious attacks on opponents or investigate cases, yet openly stating they would do all they could to protect government supported. Members of her caretaker cabinet were openly calling for armed militias, treasonable setting up of a separate country with themselves rulers and applauding the murder of protesters and innocents alike. Arms were become more available and the detection rate was zero. Do you think this could possibly be the reason why martial law was declared, followed by a coup as PTP made it clear they would not change and CAPO still tried to intimidate and stir the pot?

Guess you don't see it like that, eh?

[Fat Haggis]

So would I be right then is presuming that the NACC were able to complete an audit of all the warehouses, within the last 10 days, and have indeed found a discrepancy of close to 300 Million tonnes, but had been unable to do this over the past 2 years?

The reason I'm asking is did they not already state that they didn't have the resources or the finances to check over 2-300 warehouses, where the ice was alleged to have gone missing?

And yet, now that the Military are now in power, they were able to indeed are able to present a clear case of missing rice, in the quantities that was allegedly "missing" in the space of 10 days?

They're in the wrong line of work if that's the case, they should be coppers, if this is indeed the case and there's 300M Tonnes missing, then it's quite right that those responsible for it's theft, are punished accordingly.

Extra zero everywhere. Surely the OP says 2.8 million tons?.

Oops my bad!! sorry about that

I know this may sound very wrong, apart from the revenue lost/stolen it's 3 million tonnes less to have to try and shift onto the market, when the market is saturated and the price is very low, the supply is greater than the demand at the moment, and someone is going to have to make a brutal decision as to how they're going to get rid/sell the current stock pile, they're going to have to accept massive loses, and perhaps write off a portion of it.

Is the subsidy scheme now dead, or is there farmers still committed to selling their rice to the Junta? Isn't it madness to keep accepting stock, when they can't shift what they currently have? Would it not be a better idea to subsidise the farmers to STOP production for 12-18 months, to allow the Junta to sell off/destroy their current stock? The Millers are maybe now wringing their hands if the scheme is dead, as it means more business for them, for these guys, this is the silver lining in their cloud, and they know they can basically hold the farmers to ransom and pay them what they want, as in take it or leave it ?

I hope that those responsible for the thefts are rightly punished,

FH, I'm very concerned that you do not seem to grasp the gravity of the missing 2.8 tons. I will go through your post, point by point and try to explain it for you.

I know this may sound very wrong, apart from the revenue lost/stolen it's 3 million tonnes less to have to try and shift onto the market, when the market is saturated and the price is very low, the supply is greater than the demand at the moment, and someone is going to have to make a brutal decision as to how they're going to get rid/sell the current stock pile, they're going to have to accept massive loses, and perhaps write off a portion of it.

The three million tons was paid for by the taxpayers at 40% above retail price and though it is less that the government has to shift, they will get zero return on it. (100% loss).

As far as someone having to make a 'brutal decision', there is no decision to me made. It is a given that the rice must be sold to keep the losses from going over 500 billion Baht and the THEY of 'they're going to have to accept massive losses' is the taxpayer. (you should use that word more in your post because that is who the immediate victim is in this scheme; the farmers will fall victim when they cannot sell their rice to anyone). As for writing off a portion of it, the government knew it was going to lose the 40% premium they paid when they eventually sold the rice. When they didn't sell the rice as it came in (to replenish the money fund to continue the money losing subsidy program) but instead 'hoarded' it, they instantly compounded the problem because rice cannot be stored indefinitely without deterioration and spoilage and the borrowed money ran out faster because the program was not getting any income from hoarded rice but costing the taxpayer in construction of new storage facilities and rental costs for rice storage. (fat checks for those boys)

Is the subsidy scheme now dead, or is there farmers still committed to selling their rice to the Junta? Isn't it madness to keep accepting stock, when they can't shift what they currently have?

You shouldn't ask a question and then argue the positive answer to it; especially since the answer you gave yourself is false. The current, military government is not buying any more subsidized rice and had to borrow 130 billion more Baht to pay off farmers who had already sold their rice in the past but had not been paid (do try to keep up)

Would it not be a better idea to subsidise the farmers to STOP production for 12-18 months,

The government has a three year supply of rice in storage and many of the farmers expanded into growing rice on unsuitable land and in any case, the government cannot afford to subsidize non-productive farmers. That is not the definition of subsidize, that is just giving people money for doing nothing but owning/controlling rice land.

to allow the Junta to sell off/destroy their current stock? The Millers are maybe now wringing their hands if the scheme is dead, as it means more business for them, for these guys, this is the silver lining in their cloud,

This is less than good news for millers as who will buy the rice they buy from the farmer after it is milled?

and they know they can basically hold the farmers to ransom and pay them what they want, as in take it or leave it ?

Is that the legacy of PTP helping the farmer? Putting them in a position to be ripped off by the millers? You call that a 'silver lining'. The only people who lined their pockets with silver were the Shins and their cronies; at the direct expense of the taxpayers. Thaksin got his 'pound of flesh' for his money that was frozen for corruption.

I hope that those responsible for the thefts Rice Support Scheme are rightly punished,

Your lack of comprehension of what is/has happened is breath-taking. I have barely touched the scope and depth of the ruinous Scheme (A very large book could be written to explain what happened). Please stop commenting on this subject as you are going to confuse some forum members here who also have a tenuous grasp of what has happened.

Thank you for the indepth analysis sir.

[Dap]

It is going to be fun to see the people who profited at the expense of the

farmers, now get roasted...... Also I am curious who made the most money

from this scam, the big millers or the big farm owners. Because whoever has

the money, it sure as hell is not the little farmers who are committing suicides

over money owed to the money lenders...

I have always considered PTP's version of the rice scheme to be a payback

to Thaksin for the billions he lost to the courts. And, until someone gives me

a rational explanation of where ALL that money went, I'm sticking to the idea

it's mostly been funneled back into Dubai

Edited June 4, 2014 by Dap

[Fat Haggis]

The money would never go to the banks in Dubai if this were the case, if anything they'd be spread over dozens of different offshore accounts all over the globe

[The Deerhunter]

Just to see this woman Tyrell Haberkorn talk makes me realise how lucky we are to have the army in place. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-30/how-the-thai-coup-effects-provincial-thailand/5491290 How much is Thaksin paying this idiot?

She looks just like Thiida's falang sister. And also with all the humanity and selected truthfulness of a true communist. Worst coup in 40 years? For that alone, Robert Amsterdam would be proud to call her his sister too. I'll tell you who it is the worst coup for: The Chiangmai Ammart!

[Dap]

The money would never go to the banks in Dubai if this were the case, if anything they'd be spread over dozens of different offshore accounts all over the globe

I agree FH, but was simply generalizing.

I'm still guessing the dosh went to Mr.T

one way or another.

[marcusd]

..and who has oversight of the NACC?

why ask? General Prayuth who seems to be doing a job the two previous governments could not do

[Fat Haggis]

..and who has oversight of the NACC?

why ask? General Prayuth who seems to be doing a job the two previous governments could not do

You don't think that could have anything to do with him having bigger guns, and a whole Army behind him?

[Valentine]

A director of the Public Warehouse Office said it was incorrect that rice was missing, so the powers to be suspended him. Many others have been transferred in order to railroad the case through unopposed.

Officials are often transferred so they can not harass those who might give evidence against them.

Anyone who has lived in Thailand a decade or more, including Thai people, would automatically assume any Thai administration to be corrupt. So, Valentine, what are your reasons to assume them to be not corrupt? Lack of "evidence" in not a measure of not corrupt as the people involved are not stupid and have had years of practice covering up.

Since you are skeptical of the charges, these charges have been around since the programs inception, how would you go about proving the officials to be guilty or innocent?

What an extremely weird response to my post. I assume you totally misunderstood as there is nothing to indicate I am skeptical but merely stating what often happens when people are suspected or charged as evidence can go missing & witnesses intimidated. IMO corruption here is massive & if they were to cut it by even 50% & that money used for the general good of the populace then the standard of living would be greatly increased.