Future of the islands

[adamtwilley]

I am interested to know how the new visa rules are going to affect the islands.

Firstly i can only speak for koh tao. I have been to the other islands but not lived there.

Here 90% of the workforce is illegal. A mixture of westerners and Burmese. A lot only work here for a few months whilst training, then there are us which are more permanent. With the stricter rules, it will have a massive impact on tourism here. There are not many Thai diving instructors or dive masters. This would leave the island massively understaffed, many businesses both Thai and ferang would have to close.

Like the other island's koh tao is still rapidly expanding. Have these businesses made a monumental error?

The good news is there will be less competition for work, but also less work. If the same numbers come it would be mayhem, and not to mention unsafe.

I am sure more people would get the appropriate visa's if they made them cheaper and easier to obtain.

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[ColdSingha]

if things are as bad as you say then for sure building a business based on easily available illegal labour isn't the soundest footing

but business is about solving problems. the strong have to solve to survive

samui and phuket's dive industry adapted in the past, i'm sure Koh Tao's will as well in time

[pattjock]

Most work visas are hard to get and involve some conditions that are hard to meet.

There are some special cases where it is easier and the conditions are less hard to meet, such as teachers and journalists.

Maybe somone should suggest to the authorities that foreigners working in tourist business should be made a special case as this is a very important business for Thailand and they can clearly not fulfill all the positions needed for the tourist trade.

[PattayaPhom]

Id be more worried about all the ilegal building that has ocurred on Koh Tao. Phuket has already been targeted, expect very soon 70% being raized to the ground and returned toits original state........was only a matter of time.

[ColdSingha]

Id be more worried about all the ilegal building that has ocurred on Koh Tao. Phuket has already been targeted, expect very soon 70% being raized to the ground and returned toits original state........was only a matter of time.

good point, lots to knock down both there and on samui

[Birdman]

Topic name Future of the islands is misleading, if the only concerns are the new visa rules and their effect on some kinds of businesses on Koh Tao.

[Davemcdavidjnr]

If you want to work in this country you need to go and get a work permit, why should everybody on Phuket and Samui have to get them and special little Koh Tao doesn't.

[Tao Diver]

A bunch of us were talking about the same thing last night over a few beers. This isn't just going to effect those working without a proper visa and permit but all those staying here long term doing visa runs. Koh Tao has got a lot better regarding issuing work permits than the last time I was here but the island will not be able to function as it does now unless something changes regarding the requirements for getting a permit. The need to hire 4 Thai staff for each permit is impossible here. Maybe a special case can be made for the diving industry ?

Maybe it could be done on a one for one basis ?

It is the need to hire 4 Thai's that stops far more Farang getting legal. Think of all the extra money coming in if they did this.

It is going to be interesting to see just how this rolls out throughout the country not just these islands. Samui and KPG also have lots of people living thereon tourist visa's and not working either. There is going to be a lot of cheap houses on Samui coming up I think

[ParadiseLost]

What just may happen is, instead of 100 one man operations there will be one, or two large companies who will be able to provide legal WP options.

In the long run things may improve for everyone.

[PattayaPhom]

There is going to be a lot of cheap houses on Samui coming up I think

You better buy one then as there wont be much accommodation left on Tao once the army has been and sorted out the ilegal structures.....which is just about eveything.

[Tao Diver]

Buying property on Samui and Tao are 2 different things. As far as I know you can't buy land on Tao but you can on Samui. I don't think there is any Chanote title land on Tao whereas there is loads on Samui

At present there are around 64 dive schools on Tao. Thinking that just having 2 operators will make things better is ridiculous. Having less companies but legal isn't the solution but I can't see the Thai Junta thinking things through in a sensible, business like fashion which is what is needed.

[robsamui]

Hey everyone on Koh Tao - I sympathise but you've had a good run, so be thankful for what you've got away with.

You are working illegally - breaking the law - (and now I hear that much of the building and construction work is illegal) - and now you're going to get caught.

Didn't anyone realise it was going to happen eventually? What did you expect? You are really lucky you have not been caught, fined, thrown out and banned from re-entering Thailand.

So now it's time for you to stop whining about it, man up and move on.

Damaging the tourist industry? I doubt it. Your potential customers will simply go elsewhere in Thailand.

R

Edited July 17, 2014 by robsamui

[Tao Diver]

Rob you obviously know nothing of the diving industry. Where are the potential customers going to go them ? Phuket side is only 6 months of the year whereas here it is all year. I have a work permit so am not worried as do all in the shop I work in but there are many freelance instructors who simply can't afford to get legal. I also think there will be far more people on Samui effected by this new clampdown than Tao. Not those working without a permit just those who live there and have property, car, bike etc. but living there visa running down to Penang. I personally know far more people on Samui who are crapping themselves than here on Tao.

Lanfd wise I have said for the last decade you can't buy land on Tao due to the land title deeds.

[Pia]

Rob you obviously know nothing of the diving industry. Where are the potential customers going to go them ? Phuket side is only 6 months of the year whereas here it is all year. I have a work permit so am not worried as do all in the shop I work in but there are many freelance instructors who simply can't afford to get legal. I also think there will be far more people on Samui effected by this new clampdown than Tao. Not those working without a permit just those who live there and have property, car, bike etc. but living there visa running down to Penang. I personally know far more people on Samui who are crapping themselves than here on Tao.

Lanfd wise I have said for the last decade you can't buy land on Tao due to the land title deeds.

I think Rob knows quite well what he is talking about. Regardless you are wanting people to be concerned about illegal workers on Tao & people abusing the visa system on Samui.

These people on Samui you are so concerned about, know quite well they were taking a gamble bending the rules, why should they be in such a shock now?

These changes have been on the horizon for a while, several topics about it on Thaivisa, why didn't they take heed & get their affairs in order?

I apologize if I sound harsh, but they decided to take the gamble, knowing full well it wasn't the correct way to do things.

[Tao Diver]

And I suppose you adhere to every letter of the law whilst here ? They were not taking any sort of gamble at the time as it was legally allowed. They were doing this that were correct at the time so where you get the " knowing full well it wasn't the correct way to do things " I don't know. As well as being concerned about my friends, That is what friends do.

Take one friend. He works in the Middle East. On his leave period he comes to Samui where he has a house, car and bike. He doesn't need nor want to work and gets a TV every time yet now he is knackered.

[ParadiseLost]

Buying property on Samui and Tao are 2 different things. As far as I know you can't buy land on Tao but you can on Samui. I don't think there is any Chanote title land on Tao whereas there is loads on Samui

At present there are around 64 dive schools on Tao. Thinking that just having 2 operators will make things better is ridiculous. Having less companies but legal isn't the solution but I can't see the Thai Junta thinking things through in a sensible, business like fashion which is what is needed.

Ridiculous - pray tell why? 64 Operators with "specialised" knowledge that go to places "nobody else knows"? Why can they not be employees?

Who insures the illegal workers? How to know if they are who they say they are if there is no official check?

Why would a well organized company not provide a more professional service for tourists? A professionally run Thai company - Bangkok Airways owner should take an interest methinks.

I think that would be a sensible, business like proposition.

[Rooo]

And I suppose you adhere to every letter of the law whilst here ? They were not taking any sort of gamble at the time as it was legally allowed. They were doing this that were correct at the time so where you get the " knowing full well it wasn't the correct way to do things " I don't know. As well as being concerned about my friends, That is what friends do.

Take one friend. He works in the Middle East. On his leave period he comes to Samui where he has a house, car and bike. He doesn't need nor want to work and gets a TV every time yet now he is knackered.

Your friend in the middle east, if he has a genuine visa, doesn't show back to back entries over the months years, should have no problems.

Perhaps you should get yourself up to speed on the current situation by reading some of the topics here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/forum/1-thai-visas-residency-and-work-permits/

As for people knowing about the changes, yes , the poster was correct, it was spoken about last year about clamping down on back to back visas & 15 days (except G20) at land crossings.

[Tropicalevo]

And I suppose you adhere to every letter of the law whilst here ? They were not taking any sort of gamble at the time as it was legally allowed. They were doing this that were correct at the time so where you get the " knowing full well it wasn't the correct way to do things " I don't know. As well as being concerned about my friends, That is what friends do.

Take one friend. He works in the Middle East. On his leave period he comes to Samui where he has a house, car and bike. He doesn't need nor want to work and gets a TV every time yet now he is knackered.

Your friend isn't knackered unless he chooses to be.

He just needs to get his visa BEFORE arrival!

If he is working/traveling/working/traveling etc and he is not getting back to back 'visas on arrival', he is probably ok. It is the back-to-back border bounce people that they want to stop.

I have friends who come to Samui every year for a number of months - they just get their visa at the point of origin and not a 'visa on arrival'.

The existing laws are being enforced because too many people became too greedy. Lots working without work permits and not paying taxes. The government has had enough.

As a Thai tax payer I am sometimes competing against foreigners working here illegally, and they are using illegal (Burmese) staff. They pay lower salaries and no taxes. (They are not bound by the minimum wage rule, or paying Social Security.) Thus they can quote cheaper prices for similar services to the ones that I offer. Sorry - but good riddance I say.

Sorry Rooo - you are faster at typing than I am!

Edited July 17, 2014 by Tropicalevo

[Neilly]

And I suppose you adhere to every letter of the law whilst here ? They were not taking any sort of gamble at the time as it was legally allowed. They were doing this that were correct at the time so where you get the " knowing full well it wasn't the correct way to do things " I don't know. As well as being concerned about my friends, That is what friends do.

Take one friend. He works in the Middle East. On his leave period he comes to Samui where he has a house, car and bike. He doesn't need nor want to work and gets a TV every time yet now he is knackered.

Your friend isn't knackered unless he chooses to be.

He just needs to get his visa BEFORE arrival!

That will only work if the country you are working in has an Thai Embassy Tropo...the country I'm currently in doesn't.

[adamtwilley]

Here is a big one, what about divemaster interns. Between the full moon lot and them they spend lots in the bars. Divemaster takes at least one month most spend longer.. Most are not working and actively boosting the Thai economy. Without the violence or bad image of the party lot in Thailand.

The military declared an amnesty to illegal workers for the period of one year to allow the tourist industry to adapt. We think however this was aimed at the Burmese, not westerners.

As i stated if they made the system clearer, easier and cheaper more people would have the appropriate visa, in turn more revenue from visa's.

Sent from my HUAWEI G610-U20 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[robsamui]

And I suppose you adhere to every letter of the law whilst here ? They were not taking any sort of gamble at the time as it was legally allowed. They were doing this that were correct at the time so where you get the " knowing full well it wasn't the correct way to do things " I don't know. As well as being concerned about my friends, That is what friends do.

Take one friend. He works in the Middle East. On his leave period he comes to Samui where he has a house, car and bike. He doesn't need nor want to work and gets a TV every time yet now he is knackered.

Can't see why your friend in the Middle East has a problem.

He gets his double entry tourist visa before he comes. That gives him 90 days here while he's on leave.

Or am I missing something?

R

[robsamui]

And I suppose you adhere to every letter of the law whilst here ? They were not taking any sort of gamble at the time as it was legally allowed. They were doing this that were correct at the time so where you get the " knowing full well it wasn't the correct way to do things " I don't know. As well as being concerned about my friends, That is what friends do.

Take one friend. He works in the Middle East. On his leave period he comes to Samui where he has a house, car and bike. He doesn't need nor want to work and gets a TV every time yet now he is knackered.

Your friend isn't knackered unless he chooses to be.

He just needs to get his visa BEFORE arrival!

That will only work if the country you are working in has an Thai Embassy Tropo...the country I'm currently in doesn't.

Isn't it possible to stop off on the way for 3 or 4 days in a country that does have an embassy and get one there?

R

[robsamui]

Here is a big one, what about divemaster interns. Between the full moon lot and them they spend lots in the bars. Divemaster takes at least one month most spend longer.. Most are not working and actively boosting the Thai economy. Without the violence or bad image of the party lot in Thailand.

The military declared an amnesty to illegal workers for the period of one year to allow the tourist industry to adapt. We think however this was aimed at the Burmese, not westerners.

As i stated if they made the system clearer, easier and cheaper more people would have the appropriate visa, in turn more revenue from visa's.

Sent from my HUAWEI G610-U20 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Adam Twiley is actually talking sense here. (Although sense might not be the way to go with the Thais . . .)

Myself and several others are (quite correctly, I think) looking at things as they stand with the current Thai laws. And as far as that's concerned, thousands of westerners are breaking the law by working here on tourist visas. It doesn't matter what excuses they come up with, or how much they protest about things being unfair or the economy being better off because of it - they are breaking the law.

If, as Adam sensibly suggests, if someone up high in the Thai admin was to realise just how much more revenue could be made by maybe adding another category of visa - whatever - then there might be room for these thousands of westerners to be legalised and laws changed to allow for this.

But essentially it's all still based on Thailand being precious and wanting to be undiluted by aliens and their culture and way of life (superior education, technology, awareness, world-knowledge etc etc etc!). Maybe when non-Thais are actually able to buy land or houses without going through legal loopholes (will that be the next clampdown?) the Thai Govt might ease up on working restrictions (and pigs might be seen flying in formation over Bangkok).

But I wouldn't bet on any of it! (Although the flying pigs seem to have marginally better odds . . .)

However - what's the betting that after a couple of years of the ASEAN community allowing thousands of English-speaking Filipinos (etc) to replace the stammering Thais in the hospitality and related industries, things get even tighter and more panicky?

Don't forget - things could get worse. Count your blessings while you can!

R

Edited July 17, 2014 by robsamui

[adamtwilley]

Agreed, i am here to learn to dive. I am currently going through my IDC. Diving alone i must have spent 200,000 upwards. I don't see how earning a little while i spend a fortune is an issue.

Money into Thailand, as none of my money goes out must exceed 500,000bht.

I will say one thing about koh tao. Dodging immigration is fairly easy, we are a tiny island. As soon as they get here we know. Plus the main copper owns the land the house i live in. Mine should be one of the safe havens.

I like Thailand and want to stay longer, like others I am just going to have to stump up and pay. I would like to find permanent employment when i finish IDC first though.

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[ParadiseLost]

Agreed, i am here to learn to dive. I am currently going through my IDC. Diving alone i must have spent 200,000 upwards. I don't see how earning a little while i spend a fortune is an issue.

Money into Thailand, as none of my money goes out must exceed 500,000bht.

I will say one thing about koh tao. Dodging immigration is fairly easy, we are a tiny island. As soon as they get here we know. Plus the main copper owns the land the house i live in. Mine should be one of the safe havens.

I like Thailand and want to stay longer, like others I am just going to have to stump up and pay. I would like to find permanent employment when i finish IDC first though.

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Lets hope it really belongs to him...

[Tropicalevo]

And I suppose you adhere to every letter of the law whilst here ? They were not taking any sort of gamble at the time as it was legally allowed. They were doing this that were correct at the time so where you get the " knowing full well it wasn't the correct way to do things " I don't know. As well as being concerned about my friends, That is what friends do.

Take one friend. He works in the Middle East. On his leave period he comes to Samui where he has a house, car and bike. He doesn't need nor want to work and gets a TV every time yet now he is knackered.

Your friend isn't knackered unless he chooses to be.

He just needs to get his visa BEFORE arrival!

That will only work if the country you are working in has an Thai Embassy Tropo...the country I'm currently in doesn't.

Wow - and what do you do exactly in the Arctic Circle?

Sorry Neilly - I had not considered that one - but as you are working overseas and are coming here on holiday - again, there should not be a problem. Even from the Arctic.

Thousands of people turn up at airports in Thailand ever day. Is the suggestion here that all tourists are being turned back? Well - my guests are still arriving. They are spending time and money here (as you do) and then they are going back to their place of origin.

What the government is trying to stop are the folk that live here all of the time. No proper visa. No work permit (and thousands of them are working) and not paying taxes.

I do not understand why all of the bleating. What government in its right mind would not want to stop this?

OK. If you are lucky enough to have a job say - you work in a country with no Thai embassy or consulate and you work six months on and six months off - then I can see a hurdle. But this is Thailand. There will be a solution - you just have to pay the right person to find it. (I am not talking about tea money - but there are consultants/advisers who know ways to sort these things out.)

Maybe you have to stop over and pick up a visa from a Thai friendly country. Dunno. But I bet that I can find someone who does.

[robsamui]

And I suppose you adhere to every letter of the law whilst here ? They were not taking any sort of gamble at the time as it was legally allowed. They were doing this that were correct at the time so where you get the " knowing full well it wasn't the correct way to do things " I don't know. As well as being concerned about my friends, That is what friends do.

Take one friend. He works in the Middle East. On his leave period he comes to Samui where he has a house, car and bike. He doesn't need nor want to work and gets a TV every time yet now he is knackered.

Your friend isn't knackered unless he chooses to be.

He just needs to get his visa BEFORE arrival!

That will only work if the country you are working in has an Thai Embassy Tropo...the country I'm currently in doesn't.

Wow - and what do you do exactly in the Arctic Circle?

Sorry Neilly - I had not considered that one - but as you are working overseas and are coming here on holiday - again, there should not be a problem. Even from the Arctic.

Thousands of people turn up at airports in Thailand ever day. Is the suggestion here that all tourists are being turned back? Well - my guests are still arriving. They are spending time and money here (as you do) and then they are going back to their place of origin.

What the government is trying to stop are the folk that live here all of the time. No proper visa. No work permit (and thousands of them are working) and not paying taxes.

I do not understand why all of the bleating. What government in its right mind would not want to stop this?

OK. If you are lucky enough to have a job say - you work in a country with no Thai embassy or consulate and you work six months on and six months off - then I can see a hurdle. But this is Thailand. There will be a solution - you just have to pay the right person to find it. (I am not talking about tea money - but there are consultants/advisers who know ways to sort these things out.)

Maybe you have to stop over and pick up a visa from a Thai friendly country. Dunno. But I bet that I can find someone who does.

You're forgetting about Britain, mate, Britain. (The main reason I came here to begin with.)

The rest of your (on topic) points get a huge thumbs up from me. Specially the underlined bit.

On the other hand - can the new military junta please spend as much effort on the millions of Thai people that are also openly working with shops and businesses, but similarly unregistered and not paying taxes? Or is that just too big a job to take on, or too much face to lose by acknowledging it in the first place?

R

Edited July 17, 2014 by robsamui

[Tropicalevo]

Here is a big one, what about divemaster interns. Between the full moon lot and them they spend lots in the bars. Divemaster takes at least one month most spend longer.. Most are not working and actively boosting the Thai economy. Without the violence or bad image of the party lot in Thailand.

The military declared an amnesty to illegal workers for the period of one year to allow the tourist industry to adapt. We think however this was aimed at the Burmese, not westerners.

As i stated if they made the system clearer, easier and cheaper more people would have the appropriate visa, in turn more revenue from visa's.

Sent from my HUAWEI G610-U20 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Adam - I understand your predicament - but why not get the visa before you come to Thailand.

The system in Thailand is very clear. Get a valid visa before you come or stay for a maximum of 30 days.

Foreigners decided to find ways around that system

The problem is that if the immigration people allow a special 'Dive Master' visa can you imagine how many Russian, Korean, Khmer, Burmese, Vietnamese Dive Masters there would be working in restaurants?

Some years ago, I knew a number of people living on Samui with an education visa for language schools in Bangkok. These folk did not go to school very often - if at all.

[evadgib]

Reputable dive operators ensure that their DM trainees are visa compliant & DANed up from the onset. Any that aren't doing so should set off alarm bells all over the place, particularly from within the industry.

[ParadiseLost]

Pity this thread turned into a visa discussion, I was more interested in hearing about the state of affairs on KT...

Of particular concern is that nobody has jumped on the OP for claiming 90% of workers on the island are illegal. Combine that with rumors of dubious land ownership and illegal construction; things aren't sounding too good.

I'm not picking a fight with the guys living there - just saying a clearer picture of the situation would be nice.

For example, of the 64 businesses, how many are legal, and of those how many are foreign owned.

Are there any illegal Thai businesses?

What WP is available to get legal and what are the onerous requirements stopping so many?

Apologies for all the questions but there may be an opportunity here to help others make more intelligent decisions.

Edited July 18, 2014 by ParadiseLost