What makes 'Thai-style democracy' globally palatable?

[rubl]

Well if you really want to act dumb and pretend I meant a story on the collapsed building was at all relevant to the antics of the junta, carry on. In light of your painful pedantry I will point out that I meant the other article on the front page.

The 'other' article on 'Gen. Prayuth explaining things to foreign investors' you mean ? Nothing funny about that either.

So, if you mean yet another article than at least have the manners to describe the article in such a way we know which one you mean.

BTW antics of the junta?

Is it beyond the wit of man, or at least you, to look at the front page of the sunday bangkok post? Obviously it was. Two stories on the front page; one is about a building collapse - do you think that is relevant to the antics of the junta? The second story is about the racing certainty that prayuth will be "voted in" as PM. Do you think that may possibly be relevant to the antics of the junta? Mmm, let me think................

Sorry, by "antics of the junta" I thought you would realise I was talking about what makes Thai style democracy globally palatable, or not.

Unless of course you're baiting and trying to get me to say something bad about the junta, similar to your attempts on the other thread to raise the spectre of LM. I won't say what I think about that kind of attitude on this forum.

Oh man, spare me the silly accusations and insults.

I used my internet connection to log in into TVF and read a few web pages with current activities. Upon reading your post and wanting to read more, I used my internet connection to go to the BangkokPost website to read their home page on the web. Not being able to find the article you vaguely referred to, I used my internet connection and the fact that I was still logged in, to reply to your post, asking for more specific pointers. Your reply on that didn't really help, I still couldn't find the article on BangkokPost's home page on their website.

Of course I should have realised that with your at times quaint and conservative attitude you might prefer and been referring to the dead-tree version of the newspaper.

My mistake, excuses.

[rubl]

Actually a larger part of the electorate voted for the PTP, and I'm confidant they knew what kind of government they were voting for. I don't presume to know better than the Thai voters, you do.

"the army to be put in as bad light as possible"

I'm just pointing out that they staged a coup, imposed martial law, imposed censorship, banned political protests, banned criticism of the junta, banned calls for elections, suspended the 2007 constitution written at their direction after their preceding coup, etc. I don't see these things as preparing Thailand for 'real democracy'. I'm amazed anyone would.

"Stop insinuating the Thai population must be crazy because they legally could and did vote for a criminal fugitive abroad."

That's a good one, please explain when and how I insinuated this.

"Only education is missing, once Thai voters know about self-entitlement and self-reliance, know how to be independent of big bosses,"

You think a military strongman government seeking to control people's access to information will accomplish this?

The insinuations come only from one side here.

The royalists know that the Thai people will vote for anyone who apportions the resources of the country more fairly and actually does something for the common man. (and let me add, as you pointed out not long ago). But like this poster, they also keep making the problem about one person because they have invested so much in making him a bogey man.

They talk about ridding Thailand of the Shinawatra influence completely, but they all know - or should know - that it is about putting the Genie of the 1997 constitution and broadly enfranchised democracy back in the bottle (noting that the 2007 constitution tried but failed to do this) so that the elites can go back to running the country without the inconvenience of democracy - that leaves them to fight out their own little battles among themselves which is the post-1932 story of Thailand (and pre-1932 for that matter).

Among their worn-out arguments - the same that this poster has - the Thai people have been duped to vote for a "bad man" or "bad people", they Thai voters need to be educated (and until they are, Thailand is not ready for democracy), all politicians are corrupt so Thailand needs to keep them under control (by good and moral people and definitely not "elected people").

These are arguments fabricated by the uber rich who can't stand a one person one vote system of governance. It is not unique to Thailand. In my country an uber rich idiot billionaire seriously suggested that votes should perhaps count in proportion to the taxes you pay. And one party has a faction which is hell-bent on keeping certain people from voting at all, meaning minorities, poor and elderly.

These arguments are all nonsense from anti-democrats. In Thailand it is clear which factions are anti-democrat and which are not. It has nothing to do with the Shinawatra family versus the rest of Thailand - that is just a silly fabrication.

Well, let me thank you all for the support you've given me. I couldn't have done without you.

Assuming what you guys write is correct, we just have the confirmation that Thailand wasn't a democracy, not even barely so. I do wonder though why some would like to go back to pre-coup chaos rather than try to help the NRC and CDC with valuable comment and suggestions.

When some simply state something like 'coup bad, NCPO go home, we want the pre-coup chaos' one may be excused to wonder if those some are serious, trolling, maybe under surveilance in their home countries? Does the 'better dead than red' mentality emerge again? Am I in a minority who want Thailand to move forward?

PS in this country an uber-rich billionair wanted all people to be able to vote for him. Only those with no choice and not being able to be self-reliant seem to want to do so. Like in yuor country, education helps

[heybruce]

Actually a larger part of the electorate voted for the PTP, and I'm confidant they knew what kind of government they were voting for. I don't presume to know better than the Thai voters, you do.

"the army to be put in as bad light as possible"

I'm just pointing out that they staged a coup, imposed martial law, imposed censorship, banned political protests, banned criticism of the junta, banned calls for elections, suspended the 2007 constitution written at their direction after their preceding coup, etc. I don't see these things as preparing Thailand for 'real democracy'. I'm amazed anyone would.

"Stop insinuating the Thai population must be crazy because they legally could and did vote for a criminal fugitive abroad."

That's a good one, please explain when and how I insinuated this.

"Only education is missing, once Thai voters know about self-entitlement and self-reliance, know how to be independent of big bosses,"

You think a military strongman government seeking to control people's access to information will accomplish this?

The insinuations come only from one side here.

The royalists know that the Thai people will vote for anyone who apportions the resources of the country more fairly and actually does something for the common man. (and let me add, as you pointed out not long ago). But like this poster, they also keep making the problem about one person because they have invested so much in making him a bogey man.

They talk about ridding Thailand of the Shinawatra influence completely, but they all know - or should know - that it is about putting the Genie of the 1997 constitution and broadly enfranchised democracy back in the bottle (noting that the 2007 constitution tried but failed to do this) so that the elites can go back to running the country without the inconvenience of democracy - that leaves them to fight out their own little battles among themselves which is the post-1932 story of Thailand (and pre-1932 for that matter).

Among their worn-out arguments - the same that this poster has - the Thai people have been duped to vote for a "bad man" or "bad people", they Thai voters need to be educated (and until they are, Thailand is not ready for democracy), all politicians are corrupt so Thailand needs to keep them under control (by good and moral people and definitely not "elected people").

These are arguments fabricated by the uber rich who can't stand a one person one vote system of governance. It is not unique to Thailand. In my country an uber rich idiot billionaire seriously suggested that votes should perhaps count in proportion to the taxes you pay. And one party has a faction which is hell-bent on keeping certain people from voting at all, meaning minorities, poor and elderly.

These arguments are all nonsense from anti-democrats. In Thailand it is clear which factions are anti-democrat and which are not. It has nothing to do with the Shinawatra family versus the rest of Thailand - that is just a silly fabrication.

Well, let me thank you all for the support you've given me. I couldn't have done without you.

Assuming what you guys write is correct, we just have the confirmation that Thailand wasn't a democracy, not even barely so. I do wonder though why some would like to go back to pre-coup chaos rather than try to help the NRC and CDC with valuable comment and suggestions.

When some simply state something like 'coup bad, NCPO go home, we want the pre-coup chaos' one may be excused to wonder if those some are serious, trolling, maybe under surveilance in their home countries? Does the 'better dead than red' mentality emerge again? Am I in a minority who want Thailand to move forward?

PS in this country an uber-rich billionair wanted all people to be able to vote for him. Only those with no choice and not being able to be self-reliant seem to want to do so. Like in yuor country, education helps

This is kind of funny. You are reading things that aren't there:

"Assuming what you guys write is correct, we just have the confirmation that Thailand wasn't a democracy, not even barely so."

Nothing in my post supports that.

Then, when you posted:

"I do wonder though why some would like to go back to pre-coup chaos rather than try to help the NRC and CDC with valuable comment and suggestions."

You demonstrated that you aren't reading what is there, things like:

"they staged a coup, imposed martial law, imposed censorship, banned political protests, banned criticism of the junta, banned calls for elections, suspended the 2007 constitution written at their direction after their preceding coup, etc. I don't see these things as preparing Thailand for 'real democracy'. I'm amazed anyone would."

Clearly I don't think the NRC and CDC are qualified or interested in promoting democracy. You haven't provided any reasons to think they are, you just keep thinking of different ways to write 'Thaksin was bad'.

Regarding valuable comments and suggestions, I could suggest some much needed reforms of the military--cut the number of admiral and general positions in half, do the same with the bloated budgets, bring in truly transparent competitive bidding on military budgets, eliminate conflicts of interests (generals serving on the boards of public companies), require annual disclosures of assets and business interests from all officers that have any influence on contract awards, get rid of a daft draft system that ensures the enlisted base is largely composed of uneducated, unmotivated men who'll get out of the service at the earliest opportunity, etc. Somehow I don't think these suggestions would be well received, and these are the less controversial ones.

[tbthailand]

Actually a larger part of the electorate voted for the PTP, and I'm confidant they knew what kind of government they were voting for. I don't presume to know better than the Thai voters, you do.

"the army to be put in as bad light as possible"

I'm just pointing out that they staged a coup, imposed martial law, imposed censorship, banned political protests, banned criticism of the junta, banned calls for elections, suspended the 2007 constitution written at their direction after their preceding coup, etc. I don't see these things as preparing Thailand for 'real democracy'. I'm amazed anyone would.

"Stop insinuating the Thai population must be crazy because they legally could and did vote for a criminal fugitive abroad."

That's a good one, please explain when and how I insinuated this.

"Only education is missing, once Thai voters know about self-entitlement and self-reliance, know how to be independent of big bosses,"

You think a military strongman government seeking to control people's access to information will accomplish this?

The insinuations come only from one side here.

The royalists know that the Thai people will vote for anyone who apportions the resources of the country more fairly and actually does something for the common man. (and let me add, as you pointed out not long ago). But like this poster, they also keep making the problem about one person because they have invested so much in making him a bogey man.

They talk about ridding Thailand of the Shinawatra influence completely, but they all know - or should know - that it is about putting the Genie of the 1997 constitution and broadly enfranchised democracy back in the bottle (noting that the 2007 constitution tried but failed to do this) so that the elites can go back to running the country without the inconvenience of democracy - that leaves them to fight out their own little battles among themselves which is the post-1932 story of Thailand (and pre-1932 for that matter).

Among their worn-out arguments - the same that this poster has - the Thai people have been duped to vote for a "bad man" or "bad people", they Thai voters need to be educated (and until they are, Thailand is not ready for democracy), all politicians are corrupt so Thailand needs to keep them under control (by good and moral people and definitely not "elected people").

These are arguments fabricated by the uber rich who can't stand a one person one vote system of governance. It is not unique to Thailand. In my country an uber rich idiot billionaire seriously suggested that votes should perhaps count in proportion to the taxes you pay. And one party has a faction which is hell-bent on keeping certain people from voting at all, meaning minorities, poor and elderly.

These arguments are all nonsense from anti-democrats. In Thailand it is clear which factions are anti-democrat and which are not. It has nothing to do with the Shinawatra family versus the rest of Thailand - that is just a silly fabrication.

Well, let me thank you all for the support you've given me. I couldn't have done without you.

Assuming what you guys write is correct, we just have the confirmation that Thailand wasn't a democracy, not even barely so. I do wonder though why some would like to go back to pre-coup chaos rather than try to help the NRC and CDC with valuable comment and suggestions.

When some simply state something like 'coup bad, NCPO go home, we want the pre-coup chaos' one may be excused to wonder if those some are serious, trolling, maybe under surveilance in their home countries? Does the 'better dead than red' mentality emerge again? Am I in a minority who want Thailand to move forward?

PS in this country an uber-rich billionair wanted all people to be able to vote for him. Only those with no choice and not being able to be self-reliant seem to want to do so. Like in yuor country, education helps

This is kind of funny. You are reading things that aren't there:

"Assuming what you guys write is correct, we just have the confirmation that Thailand wasn't a democracy, not even barely so."

Nothing in my post supports that.

Then, when you posted:

"I do wonder though why some would like to go back to pre-coup chaos rather than try to help the NRC and CDC with valuable comment and suggestions."

You demonstrated that you aren't reading what is there, things like:

"they staged a coup, imposed martial law, imposed censorship, banned political protests, banned criticism of the junta, banned calls for elections, suspended the 2007 constitution written at their direction after their preceding coup, etc. I don't see these things as preparing Thailand for 'real democracy'. I'm amazed anyone would."

Clearly I don't think the NRC and CDC are qualified or interested in promoting democracy. You haven't provided any reasons to think they are, you just keep thinking of different ways to write 'Thaksin was bad'.

Regarding valuable comments and suggestions, I could suggest some much needed reforms of the military--cut the number of admiral and general positions in half, do the same with the bloated budgets, bring in truly transparent competitive bidding on military budgets, eliminate conflicts of interests (generals serving on the boards of public companies), require annual disclosures of assets and business interests from all officers that have any influence on contract awards, get rid of a daft draft system that ensures the enlisted base is largely composed of uneducated, unmotivated men who'll get out of the service at the earliest opportunity, etc. Somehow I don't think these suggestions would be well received, and these are the less controversial ones.

the poor man doesn't seem to be dealing with reality - either here on his computer screen, nor outside his window.

[rubl]

Well, let me thank you all for the support you've given me. I couldn't have done without you.

Assuming what you guys write is correct, we just have the confirmation that Thailand wasn't a democracy, not even barely so. I do wonder though why some would like to go back to pre-coup chaos rather than try to help the NRC and CDC with valuable comment and suggestions.

When some simply state something like 'coup bad, NCPO go home, we want the pre-coup chaos' one may be excused to wonder if those some are serious, trolling, maybe under surveilance in their home countries? Does the 'better dead than red' mentality emerge again? Am I in a minority who want Thailand to move forward?

PS in this country an uber-rich billionair wanted all people to be able to vote for him. Only those with no choice and not being able to be self-reliant seem to want to do so. Like in yuor country, education helps

This is kind of funny. You are reading things that aren't there:

"Assuming what you guys write is correct, we just have the confirmation that Thailand wasn't a democracy, not even barely so."

Nothing in my post supports that.

Then, when you posted:

"I do wonder though why some would like to go back to pre-coup chaos rather than try to help the NRC and CDC with valuable comment and suggestions."

You demonstrated that you aren't reading what is there, things like:

"they staged a coup, imposed martial law, imposed censorship, banned political protests, banned criticism of the junta, banned calls for elections, suspended the 2007 constitution written at their direction after their preceding coup, etc. I don't see these things as preparing Thailand for 'real democracy'. I'm amazed anyone would."

Clearly I don't think the NRC and CDC are qualified or interested in promoting democracy. You haven't provided any reasons to think they are, you just keep thinking of different ways to write 'Thaksin was bad'.

Regarding valuable comments and suggestions, I could suggest some much needed reforms of the military--cut the number of admiral and general positions in half, do the same with the bloated budgets, bring in truly transparent competitive bidding on military budgets, eliminate conflicts of interests (generals serving on the boards of public companies), require annual disclosures of assets and business interests from all officers that have any influence on contract awards, get rid of a daft draft system that ensures the enlisted base is largely composed of uneducated, unmotivated men who'll get out of the service at the earliest opportunity, etc. Somehow I don't think these suggestions would be well received, and these are the less controversial ones.

the poor man doesn't seem to be dealing with reality - either here on his computer screen, nor outside his window.

I agree, Brucy seems somewhat weird in his focus on the military.

Clearly he not only thinks the NRC / CDC are not qualified (where they already choosen by the way?), but he doesn't even seem to see a need for reforms apart from the military of course. He seems to like the democracy in which a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit. Even legally so Brucy suggested. Now I could say he's somewhat deluded, but to advocate a return to that situation because that's 'democratic' borders lunacy.

Edited August 19, 2014 by rubl

[longway]

I think the military intends to preclude any further possible need of a coup, forever. I think the military means for this coup to be the last coup. The current military rulers and their "reform" councils are pursuing their unique and exclusive Thai ideology, which is the trilogy of Nation, Religion, King. A unique cultural ideology is nothing new in this region of the world, or anywhere for that matter.

http://www.nationreligionking.com/military/royalthaimarines/

The new Thai order that will emerge will present some kind of democracy, and almost any kind of democracy will appear to be legitimate as long as people can vote. This is what the OP writes about. While the OP says the purposeful result will, in the OP's opinion, be a glass that is half empty, I say in my own opinion the glass will be completely empty and here's why.

It's my opinion the current regime is in the process of producing a constitution that allows the easy first impression of a multi-party democracy, to include what will appear to be competitive elections. The elections will allow participation by one or more neutered but not puppet opposition parties. The reformers will then pronounce they have produced a Western style democracy and most casual observers will accept that pronouncement.

The new constitution will certainly not produce a totalitarian government nor will it produce an authoritarian one. It will not produce a one party state nor will it necessarily produce leaders from the military or the police, although having the latter appears to be inherent to Thai culture. All the same, the new constitution will appeal to enough of a broad and diverse electoral base (central and southern Thailand and some in the northern swath) to support claims it will be democratic.

I am certain the embryonic democracy being created would include the overarching fraternalism that the Thai trilogy commands. So the new constitution will produce a political and governing framework to implement the unique Thai social and cultural policy of solidarity and transcendentalism, a transcendental solidarity that goes beyond individual or temporary human concerns or interests, and which are beyond discussion.

In short, the new constitution will promote a new involuntary fraternity which is based on a constitution that will enforce an artificial social cohesion. It will have democratic features and characteristics but it will be democratic in name only. The new pseudo democracy will use camouflage rather than coups to present itself as legitimate.

Pseudo democracies are widespread and that includes the western 'democracies', they can all be more accurately and truthfully described as electoral oligarchies where voters can decide which carefully pre screened oligarchic group will rule them. Consent, the will of the majority and the sovereignty if the electorate has been carefully rooted out of the electoral system as much as possible.

What makes life bearable there is that, as yet, elected oligarchs must answer to the rule of law.

If Thailand follows a path where elected oligarchs cannot exercise full dominance, it will not make it less democratic, as long as the electorate also gain sone power in relation to both the elected and unelected oligarchs.

The over rated 1997 constitution gave too much power to elected oligarchs at the expense of not just unelected oligarchs, but voters too. The 2007 constitution, though probably not having this goal in mind, did actually go and redress this balance to a certain extent, allowing groups of ordinary people to challenge government policy.eg aspects of the pt water management scam.

The biggest problem of Thailand's pseudo democracy, which is something it has always been and always will be, unless electoral reform is undertaken, military or no military, is the shambolic state of its 2 major political parties. Neither is particularly fit to govern and its lucky that another path will be found to get it through political impasses in the future without resorting to street violence.

Is it a good coup? It remains to be seen. But pretending that democracy is at stake is overblown and deceptive rhetoric best left to the reds living in lala land.

Edited August 19, 2014 by longway

[heybruce]

Well, let me thank you all for the support you've given me. I couldn't have done without you.

Assuming what you guys write is correct, we just have the confirmation that Thailand wasn't a democracy, not even barely so. I do wonder though why some would like to go back to pre-coup chaos rather than try to help the NRC and CDC with valuable comment and suggestions.

When some simply state something like 'coup bad, NCPO go home, we want the pre-coup chaos' one may be excused to wonder if those some are serious, trolling, maybe under surveilance in their home countries? Does the 'better dead than red' mentality emerge again? Am I in a minority who want Thailand to move forward?

PS in this country an uber-rich billionair wanted all people to be able to vote for him. Only those with no choice and not being able to be self-reliant seem to want to do so. Like in yuor country, education helps

This is kind of funny. You are reading things that aren't there:

"Assuming what you guys write is correct, we just have the confirmation that Thailand wasn't a democracy, not even barely so."

Nothing in my post supports that.

Then, when you posted:

"I do wonder though why some would like to go back to pre-coup chaos rather than try to help the NRC and CDC with valuable comment and suggestions."

You demonstrated that you aren't reading what is there, things like:

"they staged a coup, imposed martial law, imposed censorship, banned political protests, banned criticism of the junta, banned calls for elections, suspended the 2007 constitution written at their direction after their preceding coup, etc. I don't see these things as preparing Thailand for 'real democracy'. I'm amazed anyone would."

Clearly I don't think the NRC and CDC are qualified or interested in promoting democracy. You haven't provided any reasons to think they are, you just keep thinking of different ways to write 'Thaksin was bad'.

Regarding valuable comments and suggestions, I could suggest some much needed reforms of the military--cut the number of admiral and general positions in half, do the same with the bloated budgets, bring in truly transparent competitive bidding on military budgets, eliminate conflicts of interests (generals serving on the boards of public companies), require annual disclosures of assets and business interests from all officers that have any influence on contract awards, get rid of a daft draft system that ensures the enlisted base is largely composed of uneducated, unmotivated men who'll get out of the service at the earliest opportunity, etc. Somehow I don't think these suggestions would be well received, and these are the less controversial ones.

the poor man doesn't seem to be dealing with reality - either here on his computer screen, nor outside his window.

I agree, Brucy seems somewhat weird in his focus on the military.

Clearly he not only thinks the NRC / CDC are not qualified (where they already choosen by the way?), but he doesn't even seem to see a need for reforms apart from the military of course. He seems to like the democracy in which a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit. Even legally so Brucy suggested. Now I could say he's somewhat deluded, but to advocate a return to that situation because that's 'democratic' borders lunacy.

You keep getting funnier. To everyone but you it was clear tbthailand was referring to you, rubl. You confirmed his statement that you aren't dealing with reality.

You also keep going on about "a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit." without providing evidence that any contact between the PTP government and Thaksin was illegal. Once again your only arguments in support of the junta are variations on the 'Thaksin was bad' theme.

Perhaps your failure to provide evidence of democratic qualities in the junta is due to an absence of such evidence, just as your failure to explain how eliminating freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom or press, calls for elections, etc. will prepare the Thai people for 'real democracy' indicates that there is no way to present such actions as somehow leading to a better democracy.

By the way, I don't think the military is the only institution that needs reform, though I think it is the institution most in need of it. The disclosure of assets and conflict of interest reforms I suggested for the military would also be good ideas for reforming the civil service, I just didn't want to make my post any longer by bringing this up. While I don't think the civil service needs reform as badly as the military, it does need serious reform. I can't recall the junta releasing any information about civil service reform, I wonder why?

[rubl]

the poor man doesn't seem to be dealing with reality - either here on his computer screen, nor outside his window.

opportunity, etc. Somehow I don't think these suggestions would be well received, and these are the less controversial ones.

I agree, Brucy seems somewhat weird in his focus on the military.

Clearly he not only thinks the NRC / CDC are not qualified (where they already choosen by the way?), but he doesn't even seem to see a need for reforms apart from the military of course. He seems to like the democracy in which a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit. Even legally so Brucy suggested. Now I could say he's somewhat deluded, but to advocate a return to that situation because that's 'democratic' borders lunacy.

You keep getting funnier. To everyone but you it was clear tbthailand was referring to you, rubl. You confirmed his statement that you aren't dealing with reality.

You also keep going on about "a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit." without providing evidence that any contact between the PTP government and Thaksin was illegal. Once again your only arguments in support of the junta are variations on the 'Thaksin was bad' theme.

Perhaps your failure to provide evidence of democratic qualities in the junta is due to an absence of such evidence, just as your failure to explain how eliminating freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom or press, calls for elections, etc. will prepare the Thai people for 'real democracy' indicates that there is no way to present such actions as somehow leading to a better democracy.

By the way, I don't think the military is the only institution that needs reform, though I think it is the institution most in need of it. The disclosure of assets and conflict of interest reforms I suggested for the military would also be good ideas for reforming the civil service, I just didn't want to make my post any longer by bringing this up. While I don't think the civil service needs reform as badly as the military, it does need serious reform. I can't recall the junta releasing any information about civil service reform, I wonder why?

You can't recall the NCPO releasing information on civil service reform, because the NRC still has to start it's work.

As for democratic qualities in the NCPO, get real. The NCPO needs to guide the process of day-to-day activites for a year, and help NRC/CDC do the work on constition and reforms without the normal shenanigans of politicians and foreign experts. If you want to have the NCPO do this 'democratically' you seem to accept that implies they'll be around for another decade.

Now all your comments and complaints seem to indicate you have a problem with reality and like to escape from it. That's fine, please do so.

Edited August 19, 2014 by rubl

[fab4]

You can't recall the NCPO releasing information on civil service reform, because the NRC still has to start it's work.

As for democratic qualities in the NCPO, get real. The NCPO needs to guide the process of day-to-day activites for a year, and help NRC/CDC do the work on constition and reforms without the normal shenanigans of politicians and foreign experts. If you want to have the NCPO do this 'democratically' you seem to accept that implies they'll be around for another decade.

Now all your comments and complaints seem to indicate you have a problem with reality and like to escape from it. That's fine, please do so.

"The NCPO needs to guide the process of day-to-day activites for a year, and help NRC/CDC do the work on constition and reforms without the normal shenanigans of politicians and foreign experts."

Tell me rubl, please, do you honestly believe what you wrote there?

[heybruce]

the poor man doesn't seem to be dealing with reality - either here on his computer screen, nor outside his window.

opportunity, etc. Somehow I don't think these suggestions would be well received, and these are the less controversial ones.

I agree, Brucy seems somewhat weird in his focus on the military.

Clearly he not only thinks the NRC / CDC are not qualified (where they already choosen by the way?), but he doesn't even seem to see a need for reforms apart from the military of course. He seems to like the democracy in which a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit. Even legally so Brucy suggested. Now I could say he's somewhat deluded, but to advocate a return to that situation because that's 'democratic' borders lunacy.

You keep getting funnier. To everyone but you it was clear tbthailand was referring to you, rubl. You confirmed his statement that you aren't dealing with reality.

You also keep going on about "a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit." without providing evidence that any contact between the PTP government and Thaksin was illegal. Once again your only arguments in support of the junta are variations on the 'Thaksin was bad' theme.

Perhaps your failure to provide evidence of democratic qualities in the junta is due to an absence of such evidence, just as your failure to explain how eliminating freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom or press, calls for elections, etc. will prepare the Thai people for 'real democracy' indicates that there is no way to present such actions as somehow leading to a better democracy.

By the way, I don't think the military is the only institution that needs reform, though I think it is the institution most in need of it. The disclosure of assets and conflict of interest reforms I suggested for the military would also be good ideas for reforming the civil service, I just didn't want to make my post any longer by bringing this up. While I don't think the civil service needs reform as badly as the military, it does need serious reform. I can't recall the junta releasing any information about civil service reform, I wonder why?

You can't recall the NCPO releasing information on civil service reform, because the NRC still has to start it's work.

As for democratic qualities in the NCPO, get real. The NCPO needs to guide the process of day-to-day activites for a year, and help NRC/CDC do the work on constition and reforms without the normal shenanigans of politicians and foreign experts. If you want to have the NCPO do this 'democratically' you seem to accept that implies they'll be around for another decade.

Now all your comments and complaints seem to indicate you have a problem with reality and like to escape from it. That's fine, please do so.

"The NCPO needs to guide the process of day-to-day activites for a year, and help NRC/CDC do the work on constition and reforms without the normal shenanigans of politicians and foreign experts."

You forgot to mention the public and the press. Apparently you think martial law, censorship, bans on assembly, bans on calls for elections, bans on criticism of the government and all the rest will lead to a better democracy. And you think I have a problem with reality.

[tbthailand]

This is kind of funny. You are reading things that aren't there:

"Assuming what you guys write is correct, we just have the confirmation that Thailand wasn't a democracy, not even barely so."

Nothing in my post supports that.

Then, when you posted:

"I do wonder though why some would like to go back to pre-coup chaos rather than try to help the NRC and CDC with valuable comment and suggestions."

You demonstrated that you aren't reading what is there, things like:

"they staged a coup, imposed martial law, imposed censorship, banned political protests, banned criticism of the junta, banned calls for elections, suspended the 2007 constitution written at their direction after their preceding coup, etc. I don't see these things as preparing Thailand for 'real democracy'. I'm amazed anyone would."

Clearly I don't think the NRC and CDC are qualified or interested in promoting democracy. You haven't provided any reasons to think they are, you just keep thinking of different ways to write 'Thaksin was bad'.

Regarding valuable comments and suggestions, I could suggest some much needed reforms of the military--cut the number of admiral and general positions in half, do the same with the bloated budgets, bring in truly transparent competitive bidding on military budgets, eliminate conflicts of interests (generals serving on the boards of public companies), require annual disclosures of assets and business interests from all officers that have any influence on contract awards, get rid of a daft draft system that ensures the enlisted base is largely composed of uneducated, unmotivated men who'll get out of the service at the earliest opportunity, etc. Somehow I don't think these suggestions would be well received, and these are the less controversial ones.

the poor man doesn't seem to be dealing with reality - either here on his computer screen, nor outside his window.

I agree, Brucy seems somewhat weird in his focus on the military.

Clearly he not only thinks the NRC / CDC are not qualified (where they already choosen by the way?), but he doesn't even seem to see a need for reforms apart from the military of course. He seems to like the democracy in which a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit. Even legally so Brucy suggested. Now I could say he's somewhat deluded, but to advocate a return to that situation because that's 'democratic' borders lunacy.

You keep getting funnier. To everyone but you it was clear tbthailand was referring to you, rubl. You confirmed his statement that you aren't dealing with reality.

You also keep going on about "a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit." without providing evidence that any contact between the PTP government and Thaksin was illegal. Once again your only arguments in support of the junta are variations on the 'Thaksin was bad' theme.

Perhaps your failure to provide evidence of democratic qualities in the junta is due to an absence of such evidence, just as your failure to explain how eliminating freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom or press, calls for elections, etc. will prepare the Thai people for 'real democracy' indicates that there is no way to present such actions as somehow leading to a better democracy.

By the way, I don't think the military is the only institution that needs reform, though I think it is the institution most in need of it. The disclosure of assets and conflict of interest reforms I suggested for the military would also be good ideas for reforming the civil service, I just didn't want to make my post any longer by bringing this up. While I don't think the civil service needs reform as badly as the military, it does need serious reform. I can't recall the junta releasing any information about civil service reform, I wonder why?

to be honest, I thought it was tongue in cheek at first and then I realized it was serious.

This part,

a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit.

is simply irrelevant - and not illegal, as well as being well understood by the Thai voters before the election.

but he uses it to some how support his other positions, like Thai voters do crazy things, they first need educating, blah, blah, blah, when all of that is just anti-democratic rhetoric.

He should just come out and say 'I believe in dictatorships for some countries' and be done with it. It would be so much more honest. That's what Mr Agenda basically does.

[rubl]

You can't recall the NCPO releasing information on civil service reform, because the NRC still has to start it's work.

As for democratic qualities in the NCPO, get real. The NCPO needs to guide the process of day-to-day activites for a year, and help NRC/CDC do the work on constition and reforms without the normal shenanigans of politicians and foreign experts. If you want to have the NCPO do this 'democratically' you seem to accept that implies they'll be around for another decade.

Now all your comments and complaints seem to indicate you have a problem with reality and like to escape from it. That's fine, please do so.

"The NCPO needs to guide the process of day-to-day activites for a year, and help NRC/CDC do the work on constition and reforms without the normal shenanigans of politicians and foreign experts."

Tell me rubl, please, do you honestly believe what you wrote there?

Oh, come on, fabs. Stop trying to insinuate that it's unbelievable someone could actually believe what you do not, or seem to not believe.

[rubl]

You can't recall the NCPO releasing information on civil service reform, because the NRC still has to start it's work.

As for democratic qualities in the NCPO, get real. The NCPO needs to guide the process of day-to-day activites for a year, and help NRC/CDC do the work on constition and reforms without the normal shenanigans of politicians and foreign experts. If you want to have the NCPO do this 'democratically' you seem to accept that implies they'll be around for another decade.

Now all your comments and complaints seem to indicate you have a problem with reality and like to escape from it. That's fine, please do so.

"The NCPO needs to guide the process of day-to-day activites for a year, and help NRC/CDC do the work on constition and reforms without the normal shenanigans of politicians and foreign experts."

You forgot to mention the public and the press. Apparently you think martial law, censorship, bans on assembly, bans on calls for elections, bans on criticism of the government and all the rest will lead to a better democracy. And you think I have a problem with reality.

It would seem you're the one who cannot accept the reality. You're the one who likes to go back to the failed democracy Thailand was. Why do you fear the current reality? You have nothing to fear personally, nor do you seem to have a stake in Thailand future or want the best for Thailand in the future.

Edited August 19, 2014 by rubl

[fab4]

You can't recall the NCPO releasing information on civil service reform, because the NRC still has to start it's work.

As for democratic qualities in the NCPO, get real. The NCPO needs to guide the process of day-to-day activites for a year, and help NRC/CDC do the work on constition and reforms without the normal shenanigans of politicians and foreign experts. If you want to have the NCPO do this 'democratically' you seem to accept that implies they'll be around for another decade.

Now all your comments and complaints seem to indicate you have a problem with reality and like to escape from it. That's fine, please do so.

"The NCPO needs to guide the process of day-to-day activites for a year, and help NRC/CDC do the work on constition and reforms without the normal shenanigans of politicians and foreign experts."

Tell me rubl, please, do you honestly believe what you wrote there?

Oh, come on, fabs. Stop trying to insinuate that it's unbelievable someone could actually believe what you do not, or seem to not believe.

Insinuating nothing. Just want to get an idea of your mindset. It tells me a lot.

[rubl]

to be honest, I thought it was tongue in cheek at first and then I realized it was serious.

This part,

a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit.

is simply irrelevant - and not illegal, as well as being well understood by the Thai voters before the election.

but he uses it to some how support his other positions, like Thai voters do crazy things, they first need educating, blah, blah, blah, when all of that is just anti-democratic rhetoric.

He should just come out and say 'I believe in dictatorships for some countries' and be done with it. It would be so much more honest. That's what Mr Agenda basically does.

A criminal fugitive controlling his sister the PM and the cabinet from abroad and that's irrelevant and not illegal?

Well, nice democracy you want Thailand to go back to. Do you also advocate such sweeping democratic reforms (allowing criminals to run the country) for your own country?

[rubl]

You can't recall the NCPO releasing information on civil service reform, because the NRC still has to start it's work.

As for democratic qualities in the NCPO, get real. The NCPO needs to guide the process of day-to-day activites for a year, and help NRC/CDC do the work on constition and reforms without the normal shenanigans of politicians and foreign experts. If you want to have the NCPO do this 'democratically' you seem to accept that implies they'll be around for another decade.

Now all your comments and complaints seem to indicate you have a problem with reality and like to escape from it. That's fine, please do so.

"The NCPO needs to guide the process of day-to-day activites for a year, and help NRC/CDC do the work on constition and reforms without the normal shenanigans of politicians and foreign experts."

Tell me rubl, please, do you honestly believe what you wrote there?

Oh, come on, fabs. Stop trying to insinuate that it's unbelievable someone could actually believe what you do not, or seem to not believe.

Insinuating nothing. Just want to get an idea of your mindset. It tells me a lot.

Mr. Fab4, you question my truthfulness. That's insulting.

[northernjohn]

I think the military intends to preclude any further possible need of a coup, forever. I think the military means for this coup to be the last coup. The current military rulers and their "reform" councils are pursuing their unique and exclusive Thai ideology, which is the trilogy of Nation, Religion, King. A unique cultural ideology is nothing new in this region of the world, or anywhere for that matter.

http://www.nationreligionking.com/military/royalthaimarines/

The new Thai order that will emerge will present some kind of democracy, and almost any kind of democracy will appear to be legitimate as long as people can vote. This is what the OP writes about. While the OP says the purposeful result will, in the OP's opinion, be a glass that is half empty, I say in my own opinion the glass will be completely empty and here's why.

It's my opinion the current regime is in the process of producing a constitution that allows the easy first impression of a multi-party democracy, to include what will appear to be competitive elections. The elections will allow participation by one or more neutered but not puppet opposition parties. The reformers will then pronounce they have produced a Western style democracy and most casual observers will accept that pronouncement.

The new constitution will certainly not produce a totalitarian government nor will it produce an authoritarian one. It will not produce a one party state nor will it necessarily produce leaders from the military or the police, although having the latter appears to be inherent to Thai culture. All the same, the new constitution will appeal to enough of a broad and diverse electoral base (central and southern Thailand and some in the northern swath) to support claims it will be democratic.

I am certain the embryonic democracy being created would include the overarching fraternalism that the Thai trilogy commands. So the new constitution will produce a political and governing framework to implement the unique Thai social and cultural policy of solidarity and transcendentalism, a transcendental solidarity that goes beyond individual or temporary human concerns or interests, and which are beyond discussion.

In short, the new constitution will promote a new involuntary fraternity which is based on a constitution that will enforce an artificial social cohesion. It will have democratic features and characteristics but it will be democratic in name only. The new pseudo democracy will use camouflage rather than coups to present itself as legitimate.

Pseudo democracies are widespread and that includes the western 'democracies', they can all be more accurately and truthfully described as electoral oligarchies where voters can decide which carefully pre screened oligarchic group will rule them. Consent, the will of the majority and the sovereignty if the electorate has been carefully rooted out of the electoral system as much as possible.

What makes life bearable there is that, as yet, elected oligarchs must answer to the rule of law.

If Thailand follows a path where elected oligarchs cannot exercise full dominance, it will not make it less democratic, as long as the electorate also gain sone power in relation to both the elected and unelected oligarchs.

The over rated 1997 constitution gave too much power to elected oligarchs at the expense of not just unelected oligarchs, but voters too. The 2007 constitution, though probably not having this goal in mind, did actually go and redress this balance to a certain extent, allowing groups of ordinary people to challenge government policy.eg aspects of the pt water management scam.

The biggest problem of Thailand's pseudo democracy, which is something it has always been and always will be, unless electoral reform is undertaken, military or no military, is the shambolic state of its 2 major political parties. Neither is particularly fit to govern and its lucky that another path will be found to get it through political impasses in the future without resorting to street violence.

Is it a good coup? It remains to be seen. But pretending that democracy is at stake is overblown and deceptive rhetoric best left to the reds living in lala land.

As you say will it or will it not turn out in the long run to be a good coup. But at this point it is all speculation and I think far and away the majority would agree that it is the best thing that could have happened to Thailand. When one party has so much power they don't even have to make sense with their proposals and don't even pretend to listen to the opposition it is a recipe for disaster and that is what it got. As far as Democracy goes well that is only going to be limited no matter what they come up with.

The system I liked was the last French one where they selected the Prime Minister separately from the party. Similar to the states. Now as for the money behind them I can not say. But it seems like in the States the party that spends the most is generally the winner. Have a look at who the big donors are and you will see who is really going to call a lot of the shots. Here in Thailand we never look at the money behind the party we just say the elites no matter who is in.

[northernjohn]

This is kind of funny. You are reading things that aren't there:

"Assuming what you guys write is correct, we just have the confirmation that Thailand wasn't a democracy, not even barely so."

Nothing in my post supports that.

Then, when you posted:

"I do wonder though why some would like to go back to pre-coup chaos rather than try to help the NRC and CDC with valuable comment and suggestions."

You demonstrated that you aren't reading what is there, things like:

"they staged a coup, imposed martial law, imposed censorship, banned political protests, banned criticism of the junta, banned calls for elections, suspended the 2007 constitution written at their direction after their preceding coup, etc. I don't see these things as preparing Thailand for 'real democracy'. I'm amazed anyone would."

Clearly I don't think the NRC and CDC are qualified or interested in promoting democracy. You haven't provided any reasons to think they are, you just keep thinking of different ways to write 'Thaksin was bad'.

Regarding valuable comments and suggestions, I could suggest some much needed reforms of the military--cut the number of admiral and general positions in half, do the same with the bloated budgets, bring in truly transparent competitive bidding on military budgets, eliminate conflicts of interests (generals serving on the boards of public companies), require annual disclosures of assets and business interests from all officers that have any influence on contract awards, get rid of a daft draft system that ensures the enlisted base is largely composed of uneducated, unmotivated men who'll get out of the service at the earliest opportunity, etc. Somehow I don't think these suggestions would be well received, and these are the less controversial ones.

the poor man doesn't seem to be dealing with reality - either here on his computer screen, nor outside his window.

I agree, Brucy seems somewhat weird in his focus on the military.

Clearly he not only thinks the NRC / CDC are not qualified (where they already choosen by the way?), but he doesn't even seem to see a need for reforms apart from the military of course. He seems to like the democracy in which a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit. Even legally so Brucy suggested. Now I could say he's somewhat deluded, but to advocate a return to that situation because that's 'democratic' borders lunacy.

You keep getting funnier. To everyone but you it was clear tbthailand was referring to you, rubl. You confirmed his statement that you aren't dealing with reality.

You also keep going on about "a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit." without providing evidence that any contact between the PTP government and Thaksin was illegal. Once again your only arguments in support of the junta are variations on the 'Thaksin was bad' theme.

Perhaps your failure to provide evidence of democratic qualities in the junta is due to an absence of such evidence, just as your failure to explain how eliminating freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom or press, calls for elections, etc. will prepare the Thai people for 'real democracy' indicates that there is no way to present such actions as somehow leading to a better democracy.

By the way, I don't think the military is the only institution that needs reform, though I think it is the institution most in need of it. The disclosure of assets and conflict of interest reforms I suggested for the military would also be good ideas for reforming the civil service, I just didn't want to make my post any longer by bringing this up. While I don't think the civil service needs reform as badly as the military, it does need serious reform. I can't recall the junta releasing any information about civil service reform, I wonder why?

Well

Let's get real here if it was the toilet cleaners who took over you would complain the only time you will not complain is when it is the PTP screwing the public.

[Publicus]

You can't recall the NCPO releasing information on civil service reform, because the NRC still has to start it's work.

As for democratic qualities in the NCPO, get real. The NCPO needs to guide the process of day-to-day activites for a year, and help NRC/CDC do the work on constition and reforms without the normal shenanigans of politicians and foreign experts. If you want to have the NCPO do this 'democratically' you seem to accept that implies they'll be around for another decade.

Now all your comments and complaints seem to indicate you have a problem with reality and like to escape from it. That's fine, please do so.

"The NCPO needs to guide the process of day-to-day activites for a year, and help NRC/CDC do the work on constition and reforms without the normal shenanigans of politicians and foreign experts."

Tell me rubl, please, do you honestly believe what you wrote there?

Oh, come on, fabs. Stop trying to insinuate that it's unbelievable someone could actually believe what you do not, or seem to not believe.

Insinuating nothing. Just want to get an idea of your mindset. It tells me a lot.

Good luck.

[tbthailand]

to be honest, I thought it was tongue in cheek at first and then I realized it was serious.

This part,

a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit.

is simply irrelevant - and not illegal, as well as being well understood by the Thai voters before the election.

but he uses it to some how support his other positions, like Thai voters do crazy things, they first need educating, blah, blah, blah, when all of that is just anti-democratic rhetoric.

He should just come out and say 'I believe in dictatorships for some countries' and be done with it. It would be so much more honest. That's what Mr Agenda basically does.

A criminal fugitive controlling his sister the PM and the cabinet from abroad and that's irrelevant and not illegal?

Well, nice democracy you want Thailand to go back to. Do you also advocate such sweeping democratic reforms (allowing criminals to run the country) for your own country?

in my country we throw politicians of all stripes in jail fairly regularly.

what we don't do is let the generals loose on the streets.

your "criminal fugitive blah blah" is giberous and repeating it 1000 times doesn't make it real, relevant, or anything at all similar to tearing up the constitution in an illegal coup, going after your enemies with trumped up charges of all sorts and running them through military courts, detaining hundreds involuntarily in undisclosed locations, out of contact with family and lawyers, and pretending you are running meditation retreats, and yes, I could go on but it would not be wise, which is itself yet another point

I think you and some others are really happy that the coup happened. Goody two-shoes for you - I care about democracy, self-government, and human rights.

[heybruce]

You can't recall the NCPO releasing information on civil service reform, because the NRC still has to start it's work.

As for democratic qualities in the NCPO, get real. The NCPO needs to guide the process of day-to-day activites for a year, and help NRC/CDC do the work on constition and reforms without the normal shenanigans of politicians and foreign experts. If you want to have the NCPO do this 'democratically' you seem to accept that implies they'll be around for another decade.

Now all your comments and complaints seem to indicate you have a problem with reality and like to escape from it. That's fine, please do so.

"The NCPO needs to guide the process of day-to-day activites for a year, and help NRC/CDC do the work on constition and reforms without the normal shenanigans of politicians and foreign experts."

You forgot to mention the public and the press. Apparently you think martial law, censorship, bans on assembly, bans on calls for elections, bans on criticism of the government and all the rest will lead to a better democracy. And you think I have a problem with reality.

It would seem you're the one who cannot accept the reality. You're the one who likes to go back to the failed democracy Thailand was. Why do you fear the current reality? You have nothing to fear personally, nor do you seem to have a stake in Thailand future or want the best for Thailand in the future.

The democracy was toppled by a coup, so in a sense it failed, but failure was forced on it.

The current reality, as I have stated repeatedly and you repeatedly ignore, is one of martial law, censorship, no freedom of speech, no freedom of association, no right to criticize the government, calls for elections banned, and rule by decree. The fact that you find this not only acceptable but comforting speaks volumes about you.

I've made many friends in Thailand. I want a better future for them in a better country. I want their government to achieve real democracy. You argue for the old facade of democracy in which the military is constantly behind the scenes ready to stage a coup if the generals or their buddies don't like where the voters are taking the country.

Now I eagerly await your reply in which you write "But, but, but Thaksin, Yingluck, PTP, redshirts!" No doubt you will make no attempt to defend all the restrictions imposed on the Thai people or explain how these restrictions on ideas and communication will lead to 'real democracy'. Obviously they won't.

[Mark Thaiford]

Some interesting contributions in this discussion. As always, the intellectually substantive contributions come from the posters who are actually addressing the concerns of the OP - about how Thai "democracy" will look and feel in its "new" form. Posters like Heybruce, Publicus and TbThailand have stayed on topic while the usual ranters who oppose democracy have failed to make any kind of coherent or intellectually engaging argument. After a while you learn to just read the first few lines of the ranters' posts and then ignore the rest as you know reading their tired old diatribes will be an exercise in total futility - unless of course you want to analyse propaganda, badly worded propaganda that is.

Any frequent reader of ThaiVisa will know that this is the usual pattern - those who wish to applaud the erasure of democracy in Thailand just cannot find any way of making their case logically and sensibly. Instead they resort to the tired old cliches about Thaksin and try their best to appeal to people's prejudices rather than their intellect.

As Publicus eloquently wrote above, it is likely Thailand's "experiment" with democracy has now come to an end or at least has reached a "pause" that could last decades. There will no doubt be a constitution that includes elections and lip service to the ideals of democracy - but in reality voters will no longer have a major say in who runs Thailand. The reason why Thailand will no longer go down the road of its democratic experiment is because the Thai elite seem to have totally disengaged from this idea. I do not think any country which has an elite so opposed to democratic rule can become democratic. It would require a violent revolution and I do not think Thais will ever come to the point of an armed revolution a la Russia in 1917 or France in 1789.

Unless significant numbers of the Thai middle classes demand democracy and are willing to accept its results Thailand will not become democratic. The Thai establishment have largely managed to alienate the Bangkok middle class from the idea of democracy by equating it with mob rule that will allow the "inferior" rural people too much influence and rob Bangkokians of their privileges.

I am sure Thaksin will be used as a bogeyman for decades to come as the new rulers of Thailand try to legitimise non-democratic rule. In the longterm, however, I think Thailand would have been better off sticking with democracy - warts and all - got rid of Thaksin democratically if that is what was needed. If all Thais developed a respect for democratic principles and institutions it would benefit not just the currently dis-empowered sections of the population but everyone else as well.

Any country that wants to be in the major league of the World's economies will have to respect its people - which is the essence of what democracy means. You cannot be in the League of a Japan or a South Korea unless you develop the social capital of your country and strive to enhance the education, infrastructure, opportunities of all its citizens and not just the privileged few. Countries with authoritarian governments dedicated to protecting the interests and privileges of a minority will be overtaken by more socially progressive countries. To be in the major league of the World's economies you need a workforce which is innovative, risk taking and meritocratic - I fear that Thailand is removing itself rapidly from any such development.

[heybruce]

I agree, Brucy seems somewhat weird in his focus on the military.

Clearly he not only thinks the NRC / CDC are not qualified (where they already choosen by the way?), but he doesn't even seem to see a need for reforms apart from the military of course. He seems to like the democracy in which a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit. Even legally so Brucy suggested. Now I could say he's somewhat deluded, but to advocate a return to that situation because that's 'democratic' borders lunacy.

You keep getting funnier. To everyone but you it was clear tbthailand was referring to you, rubl. You confirmed his statement that you aren't dealing with reality.

You also keep going on about "a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit." without providing evidence that any contact between the PTP government and Thaksin was illegal. Once again your only arguments in support of the junta are variations on the 'Thaksin was bad' theme.

Perhaps your failure to provide evidence of democratic qualities in the junta is due to an absence of such evidence, just as your failure to explain how eliminating freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom or press, calls for elections, etc. will prepare the Thai people for 'real democracy' indicates that there is no way to present such actions as somehow leading to a better democracy.

By the way, I don't think the military is the only institution that needs reform, though I think it is the institution most in need of it. The disclosure of assets and conflict of interest reforms I suggested for the military would also be good ideas for reforming the civil service, I just didn't want to make my post any longer by bringing this up. While I don't think the civil service needs reform as badly as the military, it does need serious reform. I can't recall the junta releasing any information about civil service reform, I wonder why?

Well

Let's get real here if it was the toilet cleaners who took over you would complain the only time you will not complain is when it is the PTP screwing the public.

And another binary thinker joins in. Anyone opposed to military coups, martial law, censorship, rule by decree, etc. must be a redshirt Thaksin-loving insurrectionist. There's no possibility of anything else, is there?

[tbthailand]

I agree, Brucy seems somewhat weird in his focus on the military.

Clearly he not only thinks the NRC / CDC are not qualified (where they already choosen by the way?), but he doesn't even seem to see a need for reforms apart from the military of course. He seems to like the democracy in which a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit. Even legally so Brucy suggested. Now I could say he's somewhat deluded, but to advocate a return to that situation because that's 'democratic' borders lunacy.

You keep getting funnier. To everyone but you it was clear tbthailand was referring to you, rubl. You confirmed his statement that you aren't dealing with reality.

You also keep going on about "a criminal fugitive can control his PM and cabinet to run his country as he sees fit." without providing evidence that any contact between the PTP government and Thaksin was illegal. Once again your only arguments in support of the junta are variations on the 'Thaksin was bad' theme.

Perhaps your failure to provide evidence of democratic qualities in the junta is due to an absence of such evidence, just as your failure to explain how eliminating freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom or press, calls for elections, etc. will prepare the Thai people for 'real democracy' indicates that there is no way to present such actions as somehow leading to a better democracy.

By the way, I don't think the military is the only institution that needs reform, though I think it is the institution most in need of it. The disclosure of assets and conflict of interest reforms I suggested for the military would also be good ideas for reforming the civil service, I just didn't want to make my post any longer by bringing this up. While I don't think the civil service needs reform as badly as the military, it does need serious reform. I can't recall the junta releasing any information about civil service reform, I wonder why?

Well

Let's get real here if it was the toilet cleaners who took over you would complain the only time you will not complain is when it is the PTP screwing the public.

And another binary thinker joins in. Anyone opposed to military coups, martial law, censorship, rule by decree, etc. must be a redshirt Thaksin-loving insurrectionist. There's no possibility of anything else, is there?

what is annoying/amusing is that people think PTP/Thaksin are the problem. They are just actors on the stage.

Ooops, better be careful about theatre references. Like eating sandwiches, reading books, or making bird-shapes, that could get an invitation to a week (or longer) of meditation.

[rubl]

As a 'but, but, Thaksin' ranting do-gooder coup-lover (as is obvious people tell me) I'm really surprised at all those posters who want to go back to the situation we had barely three months ago. A situation which got more and more violent and might have erupted into a civil war type of chaos.

To just say, but that's the fault of the others, is ignoring the other side of the story. To simply 'know' the NCPO will 'only' allow reforms which confirm the 'elite' in their position to the detriment of the 'poor, disenfrancised masses' is like hearing a political speech.

To continue to verbally obstruct the chance of reforms without political games but with the Thai people providing input is like agitating against progress. And for what? For a situation where politicians 'take care of' corruption? For politicians using pressure groups in coloutful shirts? For country where a criminal fugitive is said to legally order his Pheu Thai party's government and PM around as if that's normal in a democracy? A government which sneakily handed out a shiny new passport while the country was wading through floodwaters? A government trying to push through a sneakily modified blanket amnesty bill absolving Thaisin and even his little sisters two years in office?

Democracy anyone?

Edited August 20, 2014 by rubl

[tbthailand]

As a 'but, but, Thaksin' ranting do-gooder coup-lover (as is obvious people tell me) I'm really surprised at all those posters who want to go back to the situation we had barely three months ago. A situation which got more and more violent and might have erupted into a civil war type of chaos.

To just say, but that the fault of the others, is ignoring the other side of the story. To simply 'know' the NCPO will 'only' allow reforms which confirm the 'elite' in their position to the detriment of the 'poor, disenfrancised masses' is like hearing a political speech.

To continue to verbally obstruct the chance of reforms without political games but with the Thai people providing input is like agitating against progress. And for what? For a situation where politicians 'take care of' corruption? For politicians using pressure groups in coloutful shirts? For country where a criminal fugitive is said to legally order his Pheu Thai party's government and PM around as if that's normal in a democracy? A government which sneakily handed out a shiny new passport while the country was wading through floodwaters? A government trying to push through a sneakily modified blanket amnesty bill absolving Thaisin and even his little sisters two years in office?

Democracy anyone?

you are confused.

no one wants to go back to scene 1 of "how to stage a coup".

Suthep's end game is here today. When you speak of 'chaos', you say/imply that the chaos came from the government when the reality is that the chaos was generated on-purpose with a specific goal in mind. And that chaos served it's purpose to land Thailand in the current situation.

That said, it addresses the rest of your comment about reform. The military is not here to reform any more that reforms are what Suthep wanted. They are here to finish the 2006 job.

[rubl]

what is annoying/amusing is that people think PTP/Thaksin are the problem. They are just actors on the stage.

Ooops, better be careful about theatre references. Like eating sandwiches, reading books, or making bird-shapes, that could get an invitation to a week (or longer) of meditation.

What is annoying is all those posters who just want to go back to the chaos of three months ago and deny the Thai a chance to get real reforms.

The theatre we had with PM Yingluck being motherly and seemingly reasonable and at the same time have Pheu Thai MPs threaten, demand, accuse. The price of the ticket was high though.

[ginjag]

As a 'but, but, Thaksin' ranting do-gooder coup-lover (as is obvious people tell me) I'm really surprised at all those posters who want to go back to the situation we had barely three months ago. A situation which got more and more violent and might have erupted into a civil war type of chaos.

To just say, but that the fault of the others, is ignoring the other side of the story. To simply 'know' the NCPO will 'only' allow reforms which confirm the 'elite' in their position to the detriment of the 'poor, disenfrancised masses' is like hearing a political speech.

To continue to verbally obstruct the chance of reforms without political games but with the Thai people providing input is like agitating against progress. And for what? For a situation where politicians 'take care of' corruption? For politicians using pressure groups in coloutful shirts? For country where a criminal fugitive is said to legally order his Pheu Thai party's government and PM around as if that's normal in a democracy? A government which sneakily handed out a shiny new passport while the country was wading through floodwaters? A government trying to push through a sneakily modified blanket amnesty bill absolving Thaisin and even his little sisters two years in office?

Democracy anyone?

you are confused.

no one wants to go back to scene 1 of "how to stage a coup".

Suthep's end game is here today. When you speak of 'chaos', you say/imply that the chaos came from the government when the reality is that the chaos was generated on-purpose with a specific goal in mind. And that chaos served it's purpose to land Thailand in the current situation.

That said, it addresses the rest of your comment about reform. The military is not here to reform any more that reforms are what Suthep wanted. They are here to finish the 2006 job.

Fantastic---pro PTP propaganda. Your last sentence sums you up. give it a rest it's all finished and done with. Arguing the toss page after page in defense of what---Thy style democracy ?? PTP......army---coup"s---Suthep----2006-2010- Thaksin what about this clown, it was down to him to run the country fairly and democratically--He ran it for his self importance, he was removed, PTP removed, but it was not their doing it for other reasons ????

You guys go on and on like a 78 record, attack me---attack anyone who does dare to mention anything against......YOUR version of "what the people want"..............what the people want NOW is different than 3 years ago Surprise -surprise.

[phutoie2]

As a 'but, but, Thaksin' ranting do-gooder coup-lover (as is obvious people tell me) I'm really surprised at all those posters who want to go back to the situation we had barely three months ago. A situation which got more and more violent and might have erupted into a civil war type of chaos.

To just say, but that the fault of the others, is ignoring the other side of the story. To simply 'know' the NCPO will 'only' allow reforms which confirm the 'elite' in their position to the detriment of the 'poor, disenfrancised masses' is like hearing a political speech.

To continue to verbally obstruct the chance of reforms without political games but with the Thai people providing input is like agitating against progress. And for what? For a situation where politicians 'take care of' corruption? For politicians using pressure groups in coloutful shirts? For country where a criminal fugitive is said to legally order his Pheu Thai party's government and PM around as if that's normal in a democracy? A government which sneakily handed out a shiny new passport while the country was wading through floodwaters? A government trying to push through a sneakily modified blanket amnesty bill absolving Thaisin and even his little sisters two years in office?

Democracy anyone?

you are confused.

no one wants to go back to scene 1 of "how to stage a coup".

Suthep's end game is here today. When you speak of 'chaos', you say/imply that the chaos came from the government when the reality is that the chaos was generated on-purpose with a specific goal in mind. And that chaos served it's purpose to land Thailand in the current situation.

That said, it addresses the rest of your comment about reform. The military is not here to reform any more that reforms are what Suthep wanted. They are here to finish the 2006 job.

Fantastic---pro PTP propaganda. Your last sentence sums you up. give it a rest it's all finished and done with. Arguing the toss page after page in defense of what---Thy style democracy ?? PTP......army---coup"s---Suthep----2006-2010- Thaksin what about this clown, it was down to him to run the country fairly and democratically--He ran it for his self importance, he was removed, PTP removed, but it was not their doing it for other reasons ????

You guys go on and on like a 78 record, attack me---attack anyone who does dare to mention anything against......YOUR version of "what the people want"..............what the people want NOW is different than 3 years ago Surprise -surprise.

Duh, everyone has moved on, its you who gos on like some proverbial cracked record, every frigging day. Take a break, go have a hol on some secluded beach.

[rubl]

As a 'but, but, Thaksin' ranting do-gooder coup-lover (as is obvious people tell me) I'm really surprised at all those posters who want to go back to the situation we had barely three months ago. A situation which got more and more violent and might have erupted into a civil war type of chaos.

To just say, but that the fault of the others, is ignoring the other side of the story. To simply 'know' the NCPO will 'only' allow reforms which confirm the 'elite' in their position to the detriment of the 'poor, disenfrancised masses' is like hearing a political speech.

To continue to verbally obstruct the chance of reforms without political games but with the Thai people providing input is like agitating against progress. And for what? For a situation where politicians 'take care of' corruption? For politicians using pressure groups in coloutful shirts? For country where a criminal fugitive is said to legally order his Pheu Thai party's government and PM around as if that's normal in a democracy? A government which sneakily handed out a shiny new passport while the country was wading through floodwaters? A government trying to push through a sneakily modified blanket amnesty bill absolving Thaisin and even his little sisters two years in office?

Democracy anyone?

you are confused.

no one wants to go back to scene 1 of "how to stage a coup".

Suthep's end game is here today. When you speak of 'chaos', you say/imply that the chaos came from the government when the reality is that the chaos was generated on-purpose with a specific goal in mind. And that chaos served it's purpose to land Thailand in the current situation.

That said, it addresses the rest of your comment about reform. The military is not here to reform any more that reforms are what Suthep wanted. They are here to finish the 2006 job.

You assume and continue from those assumptions.

The NCPO has provided details on how NRC / CDC are to be set up. Those commissions will work with Thai of all social strata, education and regions, use input from all to come to meaningful reforms and a new / renewed constitution.

It is clear from your post you do not believe in any of that. Well, that's fine, but just shows your opinion (or what seemingly is your opinion).

BTW the chaos came from the blanket amnesty bill absolving Thaksin and Ms. Yingluck of all 'political' crimes and so. It even included Abhisit/Suthep much to the disappointment of red-shirts who saw one of their UDD leader voting in favour together with almost two dozen other red-shirt Pheu Thai party list MPs (and Dr. weng, Nattawut only abstaining). Something to be forgotten and buried together with distracting into "our government is being obstructed". Chaos with cowardly night attacks, gunshots and grenades against anti-government protesters. And you accuse them of the chaos as if they willingly sat there to be shot at only to create chaos by dying?

It would seem foreign posters have more problems accepting reality than the Thai.