Working Online

[Delphis]

Again, the "IT/online services" thing is without meaning. Thailand only has financial jurisdiction over business conducted in the economic environment of Thailand. If someone without a work permit is selling products to Thai people, on Thai servers, operating through Thai currency, that is a completely different situation.

[Timwin]

are ou suggesting that they DO want people working online without a permit. It wasnt my opinion I was repeating but the opinion of many on this site with far more knowledge of work permits than I have. and please refrain from personal attacks.

Jay+sus, it is like beating a dead horse again and again with some of you!

People have asked immigration, Ministry of Labour and the answer has been basically "not interested in your case". One commentor in this thread even showed his income statement from UK to border officials, after saying he worked online. He was allowed in.

Money comes from abroad, no competition with Thais, money goes partly to support girl- or boyfriend's extended family with all the <deleted> water buffalos, sick grandmamas and broken tractors and even helps the nation's trade balance. Win-win-win-win.

[AYJAYDEE]

are ou suggesting that they DO want people working online without a permit. It wasnt my opinion I was repeating but the opinion of many on this site with far more knowledge of work permits than I have. and please refrain from personal attacks.

Jay+sus, it is like beating a dead horse again and again with some of you!

People have asked immigration, Ministry of Labour and the answer has been basically "not interested in your case". One commentor in this thread even showed his income statement from UK to border officials, after saying he worked online. He was allowed in.

Money comes from abroad, no competition with Thais, money goes partly to support girl- or boyfriend's extended family with all the <deleted> water buffalos, sick grandmamas and broken tractors and even helps the nation's trade balance. Win-win-win-win.

and others say the opposite. I'm in no position to know who is right but glad I dont have to test the waters.

[AYJAYDEE]

Again, the "IT/online services" thing is without meaning. Thailand only has financial jurisdiction over business conducted in the economic environment of Thailand. If someone without a work permit is selling products to Thai people, on Thai servers, operating through Thai currency, that is a completely different situation.

thailand has residency jurisdiction over all foreign residents.

[JLCrab]

The person working on his own at Starbucks is helping himself; he is not adding to the the stated Thai objective of enhancing the Kingdom's capabilities in the IT / online services world. Some people seem to think their presence in Thailand as suggested above only has an upside and no downside.

The person working on her own at Starbucks IS contributing to the Thai economy by bringing money into the country. A number of times on the thread I have asked people how the economic impact to Thailand differs for someone drawing on a trust fund offshore, and someone drawing on funds from a foreign business selling coconuts, and no one could answer...for good reason.

Really the only negative impact from such a person would be if their PHYSICAL presence in Thailand deprived a Thai of some service, for example a bed for the night, etc. But, since the expat is also bringing money into Thailand, that claim in the real world doesn't really make sense.

Someone contributes to the IT/online services sector in Thailand by making investments and hiring Thai university graduates by repeated stated objectives on BOI and other websites.

A tourist also brings money into the country. The first changes in 6 years to the Police Order on extension of stay were recently made. Maybe in another 6 years the IMM folks may see your POV.

[Delphis]

The person working on his own at Starbucks is helping himself; he is not adding to the the stated Thai objective of enhancing the Kingdom's capabilities in the IT / online services world. Some people seem to think their presence in Thailand as suggested above only has an upside and no downside.

The person working on her own at Starbucks IS contributing to the Thai economy by bringing money into the country. A number of times on the thread I have asked people how the economic impact to Thailand differs for someone drawing on a trust fund offshore, and someone drawing on funds from a foreign business selling coconuts, and no one could answer...for good reason.

Really the only negative impact from such a person would be if their PHYSICAL presence in Thailand deprived a Thai of some service, for example a bed for the night, etc. But, since the expat is also bringing money into Thailand, that claim in the real world doesn't really make sense.

Someone contributes to the IT/online services sector in Thailand by making investments and hiring Thai university graduates by repeated stated objectives on BOI and other websites.

A tourist also brings money into the country. The first changes in 6 years to the Police Order on extension of stay were recently made. Maybe in another 6 years the IMM folks may see your POV.

I haven't said that those categories of people aren't contributing beneficially to Thailand, but then so are online workers (provided they are not displacing business from Thais, within Thailand).

[JLCrab]

There are 3 major Acts as regards this Topic: The Alien Business Act, The Thai Alien Working Act, and The Thai Immigration Act. None TTBOMK makes any distinction as to whether one is displacing business from within Thailand or depriving a Thai person of a job, or that -- although one is physically in Thailand -- all client work and monies received are ex Thailand.

Those are constructs that have been offered so many times on this Forum that I guess people believe they have some basis in regulation.

[Delphis]

There are 3 major Acts as regards this Topic: The Alien Business Act, The Thai Alien Working Act, and The Thai Immigration Act. None TTBOMK makes any distinction as to whether one is displacing business from within Thailand or depriving a Thai person of a job, or that -- although one is physically in Thailand -- all client work and monies received are ex Thailand.

Those are constructs that have been offered so many times on this Forum that I guess people believe they have some basis in regulation.

Yes, but in all seriousness, what do you imagine the motivation would be if it were not that? I think you are losing sight of why these laws came into existence in the first place. The whole point of a country having work restrictions applied to non-citizens is precisely for the 'construct' of said work not depriving citizens of opportunity...else there is no point in their existence. These laws were laid down in an era of manufacturing and physical stock movements. The reason they are imprecise in the law is because they are a loose end - legal systems around the world are not yet fully caught up with the realities of internet business. One day they will be, but not yet.

Imagine what would happen if Thailand were really to enforce this. If, for example, every executive sitting on a beach, even on holiday and on a tourist visa, phoning back instructions to the managers of a company in his home country, were to be deported. Gales of laughter would circle the world. The Kingdom would immediately gain a reputation as being a no-go area for bearers of external wealth, which would be an absurd thing for Thailand to do to themselves.

I think it would be useful for the law to be clarified, if only because I reckon it could only really be clarified in favor of internet workers. Another reason the authorities won't act against this is because any policy-forming official with sense already knows that it's a cash cow. Yes, maybe not a large amount of cash for any individual unless they are doing really well, but over a large number of individuals it certainly adds up. And even if the sum total is much smaller than major wealthy investors and other interests, the fact remains that it is simply a source of external wealth pouring into Thailand with no discernible deficit, without Thailand having to do anything. And I strongly suspect that this is well known and perceived.

[JLCrab]

I just do my best to understand the laws as they are now and maybe some reason behind them other than the lack of understanding of the modern world on the part of those who wrote them. If you want to spend your time on how you think the laws should be -- surely to your advantage whether they are to the advantage of Thailand or not -- up-to-you.

[Delphis]

I just do my best to understand the laws as they are now and maybe some reason behind them other than the lack of understanding of the modern world on the part of those who wrote them. If you want to spend your time on how you think the laws should be -- surely to your advantage whether they are to the advantage of Thailand or not -- up-to-you.

As I said, I don't think it's lack of understanding of the modern world so much that they just aren't caught up. There may be reluctance to tinker with something in case there are unforeseen consequences in other areas. The laws were laid down, originally, in a world where you couldn't be "working" in a country you presently reside in without that work involving physical transaction of goods at that geographical location, or of services, and these laws were designed with such a world in mind. But this is no longer necessarily true, and hasn't been for some time.

[JLCrab]

If you want to call the overhaul of at least three legislative Acts enacted under authority and proclamation of HM The King 'tinkering' then that is your privilege.

[Delphis]

If you want to call the overhaul of at least three legislative Acts enacted under authority and proclamation of HM The King 'tinkering' then that is your privilege.

I doubt an overhaul would be needed. Just a clarification that attending to any (internationally legal) wealth generating activities sourced offshore did not need a work permit.

[ATF]

I just do my best to understand the laws as they are now and maybe some reason behind them other than the lack of understanding of the modern world on the part of those who wrote them. If you want to spend your time on how you think the laws should be -- surely to your advantage whether they are to the advantage of Thailand or not -- up-to-you.

As I said, I don't think it's lack of understanding of the modern world so much that they just aren't caught up. There may be reluctance to tinker with something in case there are unforeseen consequences in other areas. The laws were laid down, originally, in a world where you couldn't be "working" in a country you presently reside in without that work involving physical transaction of goods at that geographical location, or of services, and these laws were designed with such a world in mind. But this is no longer necessarily true, and hasn't been for some time.

I don't think so because it has already been determined by other members that online financial trading is not classed as work in Thailand.

So considering you can trade just about anything through the markets this has been well thought through especially because financial markets are subject to a very high degree of regulation.

Online businesses are poorly regulated and therein lies massive room for abuse. This is the main problem.

So you can come to Thailand on a Tourist Visa and trade your stocks online but you can't operate an online business unless it is registered.

Those are the rules and laws. If you decide to flout the law it's your choice.

[ATF]

DP

Edited August 19, 2014 by ATF

[AYJAYDEE]

If you want to call the overhaul of at least three legislative Acts enacted under authority and proclamation of HM The King 'tinkering' then that is your privilege.

I doubt an overhaul would be needed. Just a clarification that attending to any (internationally legal) wealth generating activities sourced offshore did not need a work permit.

internationally legal??

[AYJAYDEE]

If you want to call the overhaul of at least three legislative Acts enacted under authority and proclamation of HM The King 'tinkering' then that is your privilege.

I doubt an overhaul would be needed. Just a clarification that attending to any (internationally legal) wealth generating activities sourced offshore did not need a work permit.

internationally legal?? what does that mean?

[JLCrab]

If you want to call the overhaul of at least three legislative Acts enacted under authority and proclamation of HM The King 'tinkering' then that is your privilege.

I doubt an overhaul would be needed. Just a clarification that attending to any (internationally legal) wealth generating activities sourced offshore did not need a work permit.

Clarification as above probably would require an overhaul as it would contradict too much of what is already there.

Edited August 19, 2014 by JLCrab

[Delphis]

Clarification as above would require an overhaul as it would contradict too much of what is already there.

I doubt it. Such as, specifically? I begin to suspect you are just being oppositional for the sake of it. I don't see any real barriers to a revision of this limited area of the law, except perhaps a will to go through with it.

[JLCrab]

Clarification as above would require an overhaul as it would contradict too much of what is already there.

I doubt it. Such as, specifically? I begin to suspect you are just being oppositional for the sake of it. I don't see any real barriers to a revision of this limited area of the law, except perhaps a will to go through with it.

Fine -- Just get the competent authorities at labour. immigration, and foreign affairs to agree that a clarification is all that is necessary and no overriding barriers are involved and then all will be duck soup.

You can start here:

Ministry of Foreign Affairs

Department of Consular Affairs

• Visa and Travel Documents Division
  Director - MR. DANAI MENABODHI

  Contact details at: http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/org-chart

Edited August 19, 2014 by JLCrab

[ATF]

Clarification as above would require an overhaul as it would contradict too much of what is already there.

I doubt it. Such as, specifically? I begin to suspect you are just being oppositional for the sake of it. I don't see any real barriers to a revision of this limited area of the law, except perhaps a will to go through with it.

Thailand has remained independent because they have their own way of doing things.

If I was working online I would use this opportunity to make money tax free in an un-regulated market. Keep my mouth shut and my head down but make sure all my immigration issues were in order.

Forcing changes to the law would actually be detrimental in many ways.

[Delphis]

Clarification as above would require an overhaul as it would contradict too much of what is already there.

I doubt it. Such as, specifically? I begin to suspect you are just being oppositional for the sake of it. I don't see any real barriers to a revision of this limited area of the law, except perhaps a will to go through with it.

Thailand has remained independent because they have their own way of doing things.

If I was working online I would use this opportunity to make money tax free in an un-regulated market. Keep my mouth shut and my head down but make sure all my immigration issues were in order.

Forcing changes to the law would actually be detrimental in many ways.

Well, ATF, I don't see how it would be detrimental if it were simply made legal...as it is to exist in Thailand on a retirement visa at the moment, for example. Again, the actual difference to Thailand of that scenario and the scenario discussed in this thread is NIL...so far as I can see.

[JLCrab]

so far as I can see. You seem to see very far but you also seem to have no idea how get from here to there.

Edited August 19, 2014 by JLCrab

[ATF]

Well, ATF, I don't see how it would be detrimental if it were simply made legal...as it is to exist in Thailand on a retirement visa at the moment, for example. Again, the actual difference to Thailand of that scenario and the scenario discussed in this thread is NIL...so far as I can see.

It is legal to work online now but NOT with a Tourist Visa or Retirement Visa.

I have said it over and over just register a company and that will allow you a B Visa and you can work as a director from home no WP orThai staff are required but doing it this way you will need to pay tax but you are legal in Thailand.

Edited August 19, 2014 by ATF

[jpinx]

Unfortunately I can't find a way to stop a topic I've contributed to from reminding me of every new posting.

Pity this never happened....

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/752669-working-online/?view=findpost&p=8260920

Are you guys posting insomniac or not actually in Thailand?

For those of us actually living in Thailand, I think it's fair to say that we gratefully accept the hospitality and accept the laws as they exist. It is not our place to try to change laws in any country other than our own.

[JLCrab]

I am up usually at 3-4 AM Thailand time in Thailand to catch the end of the day in the USA. I have found that officials in Thailand are sometimes willing to hear the views of a non-Thai citizen -- in my case on Intellectual Property matters -- but you have to actually contact them and take your chances that they will respond.

Edited August 19, 2014 by JLCrab

[jpinx]

I am up usually at 3-4 AM Thailand time in Thailand to catch the end of the day in the USA. I have found that officials in Thailand are sometimes willing to hear the views of a non-Thai citizen -- in my case on Intellectual Property matters -- but you have to actually contact them and take your chances that they will respond.

I am up when I forget to switch off the pinger and someone posts something !

I sometimes wonder if any of the Thai officialdom follow any of the topics in here. It'd be an interesting take on farang ideology.

I won't hijack this thread for an IP discussion, but there's a lot to be discussed,,,,,,

[Delphis]

Unfortunately I can't find a way to stop a topic I've contributed to from reminding me of every new posting.

Pity this never happened....

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/752669-working-online/?view=findpost&p=8260920

Are you guys posting insomniac or not actually in Thailand?

For those of us actually living in Thailand, I think it's fair to say that we gratefully accept the hospitality and accept the laws as they exist. It is not our place to try to change laws in any country other than our own.

I have all notifications turned off.

[jpinx]

Unfortunately I can't find a way to stop a topic I've contributed to from reminding me of every new posting.

Pity this never happened....

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/752669-working-online/?view=findpost&p=8260920

Are you guys posting insomniac or not actually in Thailand?

For those of us actually living in Thailand, I think it's fair to say that we gratefully accept the hospitality and accept the laws as they exist. It is not our place to try to change laws in any country other than our own.

I have all notifications turned off.

Obviously!

[Delphis]

Well, ATF, I don't see how it would be detrimental if it were simply made legal...as it is to exist in Thailand on a retirement visa at the moment, for example. Again, the actual difference to Thailand of that scenario and the scenario discussed in this thread is NIL...so far as I can see.

It is legal to work online now but NOT with a Tourist Visa or Retirement Visa.

I have said it over and over just register a company and that will allow you a B Visa and you can work as a director from home no WP orThai staff are required but doing it this way you will need to pay tax but you are legal in Thailand.

This isn't an option I've really looked into, as it is not my intent to run a business within the Thai economic system. However, I was under the impression that this DID require Thai staff, at the very least a Thai director, if not four Thai employees or something like this, as well as a work permit?

[ATF]

Well, ATF, I don't see how it would be detrimental if it were simply made legal...as it is to exist in Thailand on a retirement visa at the moment, for example. Again, the actual difference to Thailand of that scenario and the scenario discussed in this thread is NIL...so far as I can see.

It is legal to work online now but NOT with a Tourist Visa or Retirement Visa.

I have said it over and over just register a company and that will allow you a B Visa and you can work as a director from home no WP orThai staff are required but doing it this way you will need to pay tax but you are legal in Thailand.

This isn't an option I've really looked into, as it is not my intent to run a business within the Thai economic system. However, I was under the impression that this DID require Thai staff, at the very least a Thai director, if not four Thai employees or something like this, as well as a work permit?

You only need a company with two other shareholders. Three in total including yourself and you are registered as a non-working director of the company. This makes you eligible for a B visa and you are there purely to oversee the functioning of the company and correspond with overseas clients. No heavy lifting involved.