Gay Identity In Thailand

[kunjet]

I recently had a couple discussions about being gay in Thailand with both foreigners and Thais so I thought I'd pose some statements here that people could respond to.

Gay identity is different in Thailand than in the West, they don't identify as gay here.

The only Thais who identify as gay are educated, wealthy, and westernized.

Only men in Bangkok identify as gay, in the rest of the country, they just have homosexual sex but do not identify as gay.

Very few of the guys who work in the go-go bars say that they are gay.

Thai men are not as hung up about what they will do with their bodies.

Thai men are not embarrassed to say that they are bottoms.

Thai gay men cheat a lot / are playboys.

The word "gay" can be used to mean many things, including: masculine, effeminate, versatile.

[The Coder]

Very few of the guys who work in the go-go bars say that they are gay.

I have no idea the percentages, but it is noteworthy that there are straight males working in the bars for the money. It's just a job to them and their girlfriend may in turn be working in the girl go-go bars. And some who work in gay bars are katoeys who do not consider themselves gay either and it's just a matter that they haven't quite made the complete transition yet.

I've also noticed Thai's seem interested in knowing which singers are gay or not (not that it bothers them one way or the other).

[PeaceBlondie]

khunjet, how are you coming on the Thai language forum, about these words? I suspect, after more than three years here, that Thais don't agree what 'gay' or 'katoey' mean, not even the gays or the katoeys agree.

There are no statistics in Thailand about this, and there may not be commonly agreed definitions, either. My boyfriend tells me he's gay and I'm gay, but we're not katoeys or ladyboys. Maybe he's confused; he's been gay in Thailand for over 25 years.

[Ijustwannateach]

I think that until recently the idea of "gay" was fairly new. You had your kathoeys and your "men." "Men" could either be straight or "gay kings," which meant active position, without losing any masculine cachet. The kathoeys and softer gay guys were "gay queens."

I think there's much less homophobia here, in the sense that a "straight" man will not necessarily go into a huge personal crisis over having sex with a guy- body contact between friends is much more common. So I think divisions between identities are not so clear-cut, or perhaps not even so important. Unfortunately, I think that exclusionary Western notions of gay *VERSUS* straight are becoming more widespread here, and in a sense they bring homophobia with them.

I don't like to talk with Thais about homophobia in the U.S. because I don't want them to emulate its ugliness. I've heard very nasty comments from exchange students in different schools here and in other Asian countries who more or less thought all the boys around them were gay. The only persons I've met or communicated with who seemed to care a whole lot whether I was gay or straight or create any problems over the issue were foreigners, of course.

"Steven"

[dukkha]

You may find reading the book by Professor Jackson: Letters To Dear Uncle Goh: Homosexuality in Thailand, a well researched piece of work and some great insights to the topic being discussed currently... Dukkha

[Papa_Lazarou]

I think that until recently the idea of "gay" was fairly new. You had your kathoeys and your "men." "Men" could either be straight or "gay kings," which meant active position, without losing any masculine cachet. The kathoeys and softer gay guys were "gay queens."

I think there's much less homophobia here, in the sense that a "straight" man will not necessarily go into a huge personal crisis over having sex with a guy- body contact between friends is much more common. So I think divisions between identities are not so clear-cut, or perhaps not even so important. Unfortunately, I think that exclusionary Western notions of gay *VERSUS* straight are becoming more widespread here, and in a sense they bring homophobia with them.

I don't like to talk with Thais about homophobia in the U.S. because I don't want them to emulate its ugliness. I've heard very nasty comments from exchange students in different schools here and in other Asian countries who more or less thought all the boys around them were gay. The only persons I've met or communicated with who seemed to care a whole lot whether I was gay or straight or create any problems over the issue were foreigners, of course.

"Steven"

What then is a 'leather daddy' and a 'slave bottom'?

And what about ads where gents (often American), refer to himselfs as a 'committed sports bottom'. Whats a committed sports bottom? I can work out two thirds of it, its the 'sports' bit that is ambiguous.

[Ijustwannateach]

^ I have no idea. My post was Thai-related, so my comments may not apply to other countries. I suggest you ask the Americans on an American gay board what these terms mean.

"Steven"

[farang prince]

What then is a 'leather daddy' and a 'slave bottom'?

And what about ads where gents (often American), refer to himselfs as a 'committed sports bottom'. Whats a committed sports bottom? I can work out two thirds of it, its the 'sports' bit that is ambiguous.

Well, Papa, being an American, let me see if I can figure out this coded phrase. I believe "sports" relates to "water sports," which is an American term sometimes used for people who like to be peed on. It also sometimes is used in connection with the liberal use of enemas. Since neither of these activities are very appealing to me, I'm only passing along third-hand information.

[Redford]

I recently had a couple discussions about being gay in Thailand with both foreigners and Thais so I thought I'd pose some statements here that people could respond to.

Gay identity is different in Thailand than in the West, they don't identify as gay here.

The only Thais who identify as gay are educated, wealthy, and westernized.

Only men in Bangkok identify as gay, in the rest of the country, they just have homosexual sex but do not identify as gay.

Very few of the guys who work in the go-go bars say that they are gay.

Thai men are not as hung up about what they will do with their bodies.

Thai men are not embarrassed to say that they are bottoms.

Thai gay men cheat a lot / are playboys.

The word "gay" can be used to mean many things, including: masculine, effeminate, versatile.

Good observations.

There is an expression used in the NGO business to cover all king of "gay sex" going on in SE Asia: MSM: Men having Sex with Men or MSM. You will see it I am sure.

Also that "Thai men are not embarrassed to say that they are bottoms." might be true for the "Bottom", but I know a lot of Thais guys (Top or Vers) who sneer at others being bottom. This is very ridiculous and when they do that I remind them that without bottom they would be doomed to one-hand job (pardon my french).

There is a fundamental difference that most farangs never get: sex, which is called fun, is not love and vice versa... hence your last comment "Thai gay men cheat a lot / are playboys." should really read Thai gay men are playboys." But this has been discussed at lenght elsewhere.

R

If you have not done my short survey on Bangkok's Sauna, please do so!

http://www.my3q.com/home2/113/roger_jg/35185.phtml

[jdinasia]

re: the survey ... please see my response here before deciding to participate or not

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...ndpost&p=811579

[Redford]

re: the survey ... please see my response here before deciding to participate or not

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...ndpost&p=811579

Dear JD,

I have provided answers to your concerns.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...ndpost&p=811629

If you are willing to come with me outside Babylon and other saunas and survey users -which might well be the next stage of my project, you are more than welcome.

R

[Ijustwannateach]

I think your mentioning this survey in an off-topic way on this thread is verrrrrrrrrry close to spamming. It's nice to have your input here, but enough with the links, please.

[popshirt]

I think that until recently the idea of "gay" was fairly new. You had your kathoeys and your "men." "Men" could either be straight or "gay kings," which meant active position, without losing any masculine cachet. The kathoeys and softer gay guys were "gay queens."

I think there's much less homophobia here, in the sense that a "straight" man will not necessarily go into a huge personal crisis over having sex with a guy- body contact between friends is much more common. So I think divisions between identities are not so clear-cut, or perhaps not even so important. Unfortunately, I think that exclusionary Western notions of gay *VERSUS* straight are becoming more widespread here, and in a sense they bring homophobia with them.

I don't like to talk with Thais about homophobia in the U.S. because I don't want them to emulate its ugliness. I've heard very nasty comments from exchange students in different schools here and in other Asian countries who more or less thought all the boys around them were gay. The only persons I've met or communicated with who seemed to care a whole lot whether I was gay or straight or create any problems over the issue were foreigners, of course.

"Steven"

I certainly agree with Steven's comment :

"I think that exclusionary Western notions of gay *VERSUS* straight are becoming more widespread here, and in a sense they bring homophobia with them."

Maybe it would be better to avoid the use of these labels and just BE.

[fanclubcm]

[q

Gay identity is different in Thailand than in the West, they don't identify as gay here.

The only Thais who identify as gay are educated, wealthy, and westernized.

Only men in Bangkok identify as gay, in the rest of the country, they just have homosexual sex but do not identify as gay.

Very few of the guys who work in the go-go bars say that they are gay.

Thai men are not as hung up about what they will do with their bodies.

Thai men are not embarrassed to say that they are bottoms.

Thai gay men cheat a lot / are playboys.

The word "gay" can be used to mean many things, including: masculine, effeminate, versatile.

HOPEFULLY 'FLOOD CONTROL' ALLOWS THIS RESPONSE-IF SO EXCELLENT "straight" on comments. I'd be giggly happy to refure to the ChiangMai Thai newspaper's on ME for "introducing" gay/gayniss? into Lanna turf. KEEP ON WRITING

[fanclubcm]

I think that until recently the idea of "gay" was fairly new. You had your kathoeys and your "men." "Men" could either be straight or "gay kings," which meant active position, without losing any masculine cachet. The kathoeys and softer gay guys were "gay queens."

I think there's much less homophobia here, in the sense that a "straight" man will not necessarily go into a huge personal crisis over having sex with a guy- body contact between friends is much more common. So I think divisions between identities are not so clear-cut, or perhaps not even so important. Unfortunately, I think that exclusionary Western notions of gay *VERSUS* straight are becoming more widespread here, and in a sense they bring homophobia with them.

I don't like to talk with Thais about homophobia in the U.S. because I don't want them to emulate its ugliness. I've heard very nasty comments from exchange students in different schools here and in other Asian countries who more or less thought all the boys around them were gay. The only persons I've met or communicated with who seemed to care a whole lot whether I was gay or straight or create any problems over the issue were foreigners, of course.

"Steven"

VERY VERY GOOD

[boybrat]

i dont give a flying ######, really.

gay, not gay, not gay but sleep with men (whatever...), gay but experimented with women, trannies who date dykes, straight men who get ######ed up the butt by pre-op trannies, straight men who get ######ed up the butt by women wearing strap-ons . gay men who sleep with post-op female to male sex change dudes, the list goes on and on and on.

they are just labels.

unless the label is prada, gucci or hermes, i dont really care. heh!

-exeunt-