Nor Sor 3

[jay-uk]

Dear all

I am looking for some advice on border disputes for anyone who has gone through somthing similar. Constructive input only please as I am already at a loss as to what to do!

My wife purchased a piece of land at the rear of our home in Ubon some months back which was some 3 rai in size and was bought under written signed contract from a Thai next to our home. All seemed well and as many of you will know you have to have the neighbours come and sign when the survey is undertaken on the day to acknowledge acceptance of the dimensions/size. We did all this when on our holiday Feb/Mar'06 but then after leaving the country tried to get a chanote and another visit had to be made by the land office. The visit did not go well as a chinese guy at the rear of our land/border objected where we had put our fence stating in his view we have taken 2 taland wah of his land. This cannot be correct as we followed the line on our nor sor sam and all previous land papers were the same showing a straight border. Even the land office have confirmed the border to be straight and measurements correct. We have tried to make sense of matters with a solicitor writing letters but this has done no good. This <deleted> will not sign and this is nothing more than an attempt to get a small piece of land for nothing but what do I do as he has got us stumped and its too small to go to court at significant cost to ourselves. He has no proof but has managed to halt the wjole process. We can sit back and do nothing and stay with our Nor Sor 3 only but to avoid future disputes we realy want the whole matter laid to rest and a chanote document in our hand. Has anyone had similar experiences and do they know of any legal ways of calling his bluff and going ahead without his signature as currently he is un-reasonably with holding the process from moving forward. Typed quickly on a Saturday afternoon, please excuse any typos.

Thanks for any help.

Jay

[geoffphuket]

Dear all

I am looking for some advice on border disputes for anyone who has gone through somthing similar. Constructive input only please as I am already at a loss as to what to do!

My wife purchased a piece of land at the rear of our home in Ubon some months back which was some 3 rai in size and was bought under written signed contract from a Thai next to our home. All seemed well and as many of you will know you have to have the neighbours come and sign when the survey is undertaken on the day to acknowledge acceptance of the dimensions/size. We did all this when on our holiday Feb/Mar'06 but then after leaving the country tried to get a chanote and another visit had to be made by the land office. The visit did not go well as a chinese guy at the rear of our land/border objected where we had put our fence stating in his view we have taken 2 taland wah of his land. This cannot be correct as we followed the line on our nor sor sam and all previous land papers were the same showing a straight border. Even the land office have confirmed the border to be straight and measurements correct. We have tried to make sense of matters with a solicitor writing letters but this has done no good. This <deleted> will not sign and this is nothing more than an attempt to get a small piece of land for nothing but what do I do as he has got us stumped and its too small to go to court at significant cost to ourselves. He has no proof but has managed to halt the wjole process. We can sit back and do nothing and stay with our Nor Sor 3 only but to avoid future disputes we realy want the whole matter laid to rest and a chanote document in our hand. Has anyone had similar experiences and do they know of any legal ways of calling his bluff and going ahead without his signature as currently he is un-reasonably with holding the process from moving forward. Typed quickly on a Saturday afternoon, please excuse any typos.

Thanks for any help.

Jay

Am I reading this correct, you're at odds over 2 Wah of land out of a total of 3 Rai. Is it really worth the hastle?

[jay-uk]

hi geoff

thanks for the prompt reply. the honest answer to your question is no. however, this guy has been arrogant enough to make demands without any proof shown to our solicitors. my wife and i do not want to give one inch to anyone who claims ownership without paperwork to back up his claims otherwise any tom, dick or harry could do the same. the point is not the size of land as we have told him through our solicitor if he has proof in written form then we will move our fence without delay but given the fact he has admitted his paperwork is the same as ours and no different why should we. we checked this man out and apparently he does this for a living but with small farmers who do not know any better by taking land without consent as the local farmer does not have the money or where-with-all to fight his corner and get it back. this has been confirmed also by the land office who confirm every time he is involved on land in the area it gets messy. we have tried to compromise by offering money as an incentive to sign and he still will not just to be akward. the whole thing goes way back to a previous dispute with the guy who sold us the land he seems just bitter that a farang's wife has taken ownership.

[jay-uk]

to avoid any future disputes when we come to sell ourselves in future we jus want this chanote to avoid any more spurious claims such as this arising but i feel we are going to have to give in to demands in order to do it which seems wrong in any country.

[Khun Jean]

I see two options.

First. Go to the courts and fight for 2-4 years, a lot of money spend and a lot of bad 'vibes'. And you will probably lose.

Second. Just give him the 2 talang wah and get over it.

Even if you win the case. Your neighbour will have an axe to grind!

You would be looking over your shoulder every day, and have stupid all night barking dogs on your land, just in case.

Remember you are not in your own country. Connections and money rules here. I think he will outnumber you, at least with the number of connections and those are the most important.

my wife and i do not want to give one inch...

This attitude will not get you any further in live. Especially here!

And answering Geoff:

the honest answer to your question is no.

I think you just need a cool down period. I get worked up about these things too. I am now able to surpress (sp) it a little. With more training i will be able to just forget about these small things.

Try to not hink about it for a while, the chanot will be there later too. It might give you a different perspective.

Another option would be to negotiate, say something like:

These papers are very difficult to read correctly what about we just split the difference 50/50. You happy, me happy. Then have a beer and a good laugh at how good this solution is. Believe me, you will sleep much better.

I suspect just offering some money is a slap in the face of this guy. It probably made him more determined to not give in to anything.

I don't have personal experience, but my mother in law had a similar case a few years ago. She ended up with a settlement. And all faces saved. She will probably have another argument about landborders next year when she will be dividing the land amongst her daughters and upgrading to a chanot.

I hope everything will work out fine.

Good luck.

Edited July 8, 2006 by Khun Jean

[geoffphuket]

I see two options.

First. Go to the courts and fight for 2-4 years, a lot of money spend and a lot of bad 'vibes'. And you will probably lose.

Second. Just give him the 2 talang wah and get over it.

Even if you win the case. Your neighbour will have an axe to grind!

You would be looking over your shoulder every day, and have stupid all night barking dogs on your land, just in case.

Remember you are not in your own country. Connections and money rules here. I think he will outnumber you, at least with the number of connections and those are the most important.

my wife and i do not want to give one inch...

This attitude will not get you any further in live. Especially here!

And answering Geoff:

the honest answer to your question is no.

I think you just need a cool down period. I get worked up about these things too. I am now able to surpress (sp) it a little. With more training i will be able to just forget about these small things.

Try to not hink about it for a while, the chanot will be there later too. It might give you a different perspective.

Another option would be to negotiate, say something like:

These papers are very difficult to read correctly what about we just split the difference 50/50. You happy, me happy. Then have a beer and a good laugh at how good this solution is. Believe me, you will sleep much better.

I suspect just offering some money is a slap in the face of this guy. It probably made him more determined to not give in to anything.

I don't have personal experience, but my mother in law had a similar case a few years ago. She ended up with a settlement. And all faces saved. She will probably have another argument about landborders next year when she will be dividing the land amongst her daughters and upgrading to a chanot.

I hope everything will work out fine.

Good luck.

I have to agree with Khun Jean. Let him have his way, get over it and get on with your life. Go to court if you must - he'll still win regardless of the outcome. This is Thailand !!

I offer this advise in all sincerity, having previously battled a court case in similar circumstances.

Swallow your pride my friend and back down !

[chownah]

What is the problem if settling this dispute takes a long time? It seems that your sense of urgency is the weapon he is using against you. You could put up a fence surrounding what you think is your land keeping in mind that you might have to change it later...or you could put up a fence surrounding what he think is your land and consider that you probably won't have to move it later. In either case you could continue on a legal path to resolve the problem. It very well may be that if this guy does this to alot of people that if he gets away with it with you it will give him an aura of invincibility to others (gosh....he even triumphed over the farang!!!) and putting a halt to this practice will be a boon for the community....on the other hand he may actually be invincible. I think that a possible approach to this might be to go to the land office and suggest to them that they should help in resolving this issue since they have such invaluable experience with these sorts of things and that you would be glad to sponsor another survey to establish your boundaries beyond doubt....this strokes their egos and gives them a bit of discretionary income....might work...might not.

Edit: You might find a way to be absolutely sure that you are right and he is wrong. I am an engineer and very adept in surveying land. I have purchased a few parcels of land here in the north and be advised that surveyors do make mistakes and do try to gloss over small discrepencies in documents and marker locations to avoid the mass of work that would be required to correct the massive entanglements encountered in some land survey situations. I just bought a piece of land and the surveyors came out and suggested that my land actually extended into the small communal irrigation ditch by about 40 cm. If I had acted on this I would have rendered the ditch too small to function properly....the real problem was that the existing markers were either misplaced by 40 cm or that the gov't irrigation dept. had encroached on my land at the other end and the surveyor was pushing my land away from the gov't's encroachment and onto the non-gov't irrigation ditch at the other end...... To make a long story not longer....there are lots of reasons why surveyors take the path of least resistance in resolving small discrepancies in surveys.

Edited July 9, 2006 by chownah

[Gary A]

We had a similar situation. My wife has two rai with a chanote. We are fortunate to have two concrete roads as borders. The next door neighbor actually moved one of the round boundary markers and that gave him about an extra two meters of road frontage. We weren't too worried about him stealing the land BUT it made our wall crooked. I threw a fit and threatened to have him prosecuted but my wife's cooler head prevailed. The bottom line was that we wanted to get the fence/wall built and the court battle would have been long and drawn out. We WOULD have eventually won because it is all about measuring and the survey. We couldn't prove the he personally moved the marker even though everyone knew that he had. My wife told me that every time he looked at our crooked wall he would know that he was a thief and karma would punish him. Everyone in the village sees the crooked wall when they pass by and they know why it is crooked. There were three markers on that side, one in the front, one in the middle and another at the back. The middle marker is on another neighbors land so that one wasn't disturbed.

That wall caused even more grief. The contractor laid out the fence markers for everyone to see. Nothing was said but he put the foundation in to the edge of the marker. That meant we were stealing half the diameter of the marker from another neighbor. About 2 inches. We had to tear out the foundation and move it 2 inches to the middle of the marker. He was right and we were wrong so we paid the price. The contractor absorbed the labor portion but I paid for the extra material. We moved the foundation 4 inches to eliminate any more squabbles. NO money changed hands.

[sbk]

My in laws had a similar problem with the old (70 yrs old) man next door. My husband's 88 year old grandfather caught him moving the boundary markers of the property (to give him more obviously) and beat the crap out of him with his cane. Neighbor went to the police, who came and got grandpa. Said, "Aren't you a little old to be doing this sort of thing?" to which grandpa replied "If I catch him doing it again, I'll beat him up again". Old guy never moved the markers again.

So, I am not advocating beating up your neighbor but if this guy is well known for this behavior then no one except him will have bad feelings for you if you dispute this. You might even gain his respect.

[Nawtilus]

If his papers say the boundary is the same as yours, then just put up a big kick arse fence on that side of the boundary. Leave it go for awhile, wait and see, wait him out and maybe he will sell or whatever. Then if all else fails, apply for the chanote and copy his signature yourself onto the documents. Slip the land office a few baht and tell them to leave the documents with you and you will get everyone to sign over next few days.

[percy2]

If his papers say the boundary is the same as yours, then just put up a big kick arse fence on that side of the boundary. Leave it go for awhile, wait and see, wait him out and maybe he will sell or whatever. Then if all else fails, apply for the chanote and copy his signature yourself onto the documents. Slip the land office a few baht and tell them to leave the documents with you and you will get everyone to sign over next few days.

How many laws are you advising him to brake?

[percy2]

break.......

[jay-uk]

Thanks for all who have contributed their thoughts which prove very helpful in making a decision. We contacted the land office on Friday to discuss our solicitors suggestion of having the land surveyed again. The land office told my wife in as much words... sit tight and do nothing this guy does this all the time we always have problems with him. you have the nor sor sam why have the land measured again we have measured it three times already and the figures/dimensions keep coming up the same. At that point my wife said to me its best to wait and talk face to face with this chinese guy on our return to Ubon early next year. I tend now to belive Geoff and Khun Jean on matters but it still seems un fair but such is life i guess. I'd still like to teach him a lesson though but when in Rome .........

[Nawtilus]

How many laws are you advising him to brake?

As many as he can get away with....TIT.

Just put the fence up, the amount of land he is talking about, 2 wah, is only 8 square metres. If you imagine this area stretched along the boundary of his whole property, I am sure my 1yo daughter could piss further than the width would be and I am sure the fence would actually sit on the entire disputed area. So build it, cover the disputed area and then send him a bill for half of the fence.

[jay-uk]

its actually not even that big its only 2 talang wah (2 sq/m) so you couldn't even dig a section wide enough to walk down but this chinese guy/neighbour is bugging the hel_l out of me. I'll have to wait until i'm there i just feel it as i'm gonna get shafted one way or another when i'm not there

[Nawtilus]

crikey, 2 sq metres. Well why are you in such a hurry to get chanote for it anyway, the other title is almost as good and would certainly do for what you want to use it for. If you want to sell it, other thais are fully aware of this title and would have no problem purchasing it as is. So just piss him off and leave it as it is.

In fact, if you really want to piss him off, not that I condone this type of activity in any way shape or form, it is my suggestion you just do as I mentioned, but a nice little quiet under the radar way of annoying him would be to get lawyer to send him a letter and tell him thanks for his help, but you have decided to leave the title as is now and build a piggery on the land instead.

[Nawtilus]

or a chicken farm and ask him for his help in passing on any relevant sightings of pigeons falling dead as they fly overhead from birdflu.

[jay-uk]

i'd love to do that but our house is one the other 3 rai at the front where we take our holidays. pig farming might be cutting off my nose to spite my face

[jay-uk]

on the...sorry typing too quick

[simon43]

Give him the 2 talang wah, but make it totally unusable!! I have no idea how actually - do you have acess to any waste plutonium??

Simon

[Nawtilus]

But he does not know that !!!!

As long as he thinks you might, firstly it will piss him off, secondly it might make him sign the document if you say you will not do it.

Your land aint going anywhere, so chill out.

[chownah]

Actually one wah is 2 meters so one talang wah is 4 square meters so 2 talang wah is actually 8 square metres.....so this looks like its actually a lot bigger deal than you imagined! I think this calls for the high powered lawyers and perhaps even a call to your connection in Parliament!!

Maybe you could offer him a compromise...you both agree to dedicate the land as a peace park!!! A snake cemetary? A Buddhist walking meditation path? A communal al fresco urinal?

Sorry....I guess I'm not taking your problem serioiusly enough....I'll shut up now.

[jay-uk]

yes as i said constructive input would be much appreciated

[jay-uk]

however, you are all quite right in the scheme of things it is not a huge piece of land to lose but the point is why should we lose it when it is not his in the first place.

[bino]

It sounds like the contested land is away from your house....can he see the 8 square meters from his house?

I like the idea of something ugly right in the middle of the space... maybe not a pig farm, but a derelict vehicle would just about occupy 8 sq m perfectly.

Let him look at the piece of sh*t sitting there. If he goes to the time and expense of removing it- great. Bring another one. Keep doing it until he gets really upset and call the lawyers at his expense, and finds out that he is wrong.

[jay-uk]

i don't think he is that fussed about what's there as he lives a few km's away in the city centre. he just owns the land at our rear and some other plots nearby. a pig farm reaaly wouldn't bother him too much.

[jay-uk]

is there any other way to avoid court process through some kind of other legal process. if in uk uk can go for mediation or abitration on some disputes without going to court. Is ther something similar in Thailand as not everyone can afford to go to court. I can't belive that the whole legal system is set up to allow people to win by default of the fact that they do not have the where with all finacially or time to pursue matters through the courts. If something such as this is a small claims type case would there be the need to go through court at all. At the moment I cannot even get this guy to engage a solicitor himself to get straight answers to our questions in writting and so far he has answered no letters and the paperwork he has shown is not proof of ownership to cover a dispute. He is just improvising and making it all up as he goes along building mementum of the back of our frustrations.

[Dragonman]

I do not really understand the legal complexities of this!

Objections are to be made to the Land Office for boundary disputes. The Land Department remit is to have the ultimate decision on land boundaries, only over-ruled by a Court decision. An objection is only that, it is up to the Land Office to decide whether to grant a Chanote, or not.

They seem to be ducking out of their responsibilities. Ask them why they will not grant the chanote? Do they consider the objection reasonable? If not, one should be granted!

As others have suggested, if the Land Office will not grant the chanote, I would just carry on with the Nor Sor Sahm, and do exactly as you wish. He will then have to take Court action if he wishes to object on any boundary dispute.

Arbitration is available, but I would presume he would not wish to proceed.

[geoffphuket]

It's sounds like it's definately a matter of principle, rather than anything to do with a few foot of land. I fully understand your frustration at the guy. Why don't you make him look stupid by asking him to move the fence where he thinks it should be. Maybe you could agree 50/50 and only loose 1 talang wah... Enough to sit on and enjoy a pot noodle with him!

[jay-uk]

hi dragonman and geoff

we have asked the land office to get involved but the chanote has been handed on to another department and they still require a signature from this guy to go ahead without it its a civil dispute at which point they wish not to get involved. I may be wrong about thai land law but that is how i see it from their comments so far. On the point of asking him to split the difference 50/50 well any rational person would say yes to that and i would certainly agree to it. However, this guy from one conversation to the next jumps around making so called decisions for us where he things the boundary should be moved from one day its the section in the middle then he goes away and thinks for a while and comes back saying move the fence at the end. I know what his plan is i think to improve the entrance on/off his own land as he plans an access route through the back at some point in time. So far this guy has done his best to insult my Father-in-law, question my wife's eductation and generally making all sorts of personal comments to agrivate the situation further. He is not a very nice person and just another tight arsed chinese guy who thinks we are no smarter than the farmers he steals land from on a day-to-day basis loaning them money. This land was not given to us free we had to buy it at great cost from our savings as the land is on the outskirts of the city and I begrudge giving it away to someone who makes demands. I am already in for 10,000 baht in solicitors fees, international telephone calls back and forth and chanote cancellation. I would really like to discover some loop hole in the law that states we can go ahead with the chanote by default of him not showing any proof of ownership but so far it does not seem to be there under thai law.