Thai Nominee Shareholding Crackdown in Pattaya announced by DSI

[In Search of Space]

Is it specifically Pattaya that is being targeted, or will it be a nationwide crackdown ?

[moto77]

My wife is a Thai national; I am a USA national. We live in each country roughly six months per year. But the difference in the way we are treated by each other's native country is night and day. My wife travels in and out of the USA on her Thai passport never needing a Visa. She can work, own property, own businesses, go to school, whatever. She is protected against overt discrimination and welcomed as a tax-paying, contributing part of society. But no matter how long we are married, nor how long we are in Thailand, I can never do any of those things. We are both college educated experienced professionals; but she is welcomed and wanted in my country, and I never will be in hers. Xenophobic or not, it's just plain dumb.

You are one of the lucky ones. My American friend has been married to a Thai for 15 years and she has never been granted a visa to visit US, even to attend his father's funeral.

Depends on the person. My Thai GF (not wife) got a 10 year business and tourist visa with 180 day entries.

I am guessing that is just a tourist visa that means she is qualified to visit the US (equivalent to a visa waiver for Canadians for 180 days per year). Thais are not qualified for visa waivers. She however is precluded from earning money through work in the US. i.e. the US has determined that she is not likely to become an illegal alien working in the US.

It is a dual purpose B1/B2 visa. She can conduct business but cannot be employed. Same as a B visa sans work permit in Thailand.

[lucjoker]

How can something be wrong ?

You can make a thai company ,pay taxes.....and then they change the law ?

Nominees is not a farang invention ,so punish the lawyers and give the farang his money back .

It is also forbidden to give the house /land /money to your wife !

So maybe burn it ?

[moto77]

JesseFrank, on 22 Aug 2014 - 14:42, said:

Rorri, on 22 Aug 2014 - 14:34, said:

chris2004, on 22 Aug 2014 - 14:22, said:chris2004, on 22 Aug 2014 - 14:22, said:

This was always illegal. If people took the risk and now get caught out it's their own fault. Their country, their rules and laws.

Not and never was "illegal", there is a legal loophole. Please read "LEGAL."

The Foreign Business Act was a law enacted by the Chuan Leekpai-controlled National Legislative Assembly of Thailand in 1999 that limited foreign ownership of certain Thai industries. Its predecessor was the Alien Business Act of 1972, enacted by a military junta. Industries which must be majority-owned by Thais included the newspaper business, radio stations, television stations, rice farming, animal husbandry, fishing, land trading, mining, wholesaling and retailing, restaurants, and all service businesses. The law criminalized nominees, any Thai who held shares on behalf of a foreigner. Nominees could be fined 100,000 to 1 million baht and face up to 3 years in prison. However, the law did not prohibit foreigners from being the majority in the board of directors and also did not prohibit having different classes of shares with differing voting rights. This loophole allowed thousands of foreign-controlled businesses to operate in Thailand.

The subject of this thread isn't that foreigners held control of a Thai company through legal ways like preference shares, but the fact that the shareholders are straw men who don't have any real interest in the company.

Also the problem is that a company that owns a property has to do REAL business, and not just add some fake business deals to the balance sheet at the end of the year, as is the reality with most companies that were set up with that purpose.

You need to apologise to Rorri...go and re-read the OP, your comprehension seems way off target.

No, I think he's exactly right. Here is the statement in the OP:

They gathered to discuss how some Foreign business operators have exploited the Thai Nominee Shareholding loophole for many years, despite it being illegal under the Foreign Business Act of 1999.

[lucjoker]

You can start a thai company with equal thai partners(no nominees) ,who really put their money in it.........

And next year they will make a new law that says that it is illegal to Be a farang in a thai company ,

so you will never be sure here .Better not to invest in thailand,just spend some money and have a life somewhere else where they

deserve it .

[Langsuan Man]

Someone please wake me up when there is a credible report of one farang losing his private house due to this new enforcement; otherwise it is just another smoke and mirrors crackdown

[JSixpack]

Let see western governments do the same to Thai nationals with investments abroad, make these rules reciprocal.

I agree, tit for tat.

Reverse logic at work here perhaps? If the USA needs a friend in Thaland, is it better that Thailand have billions invested in the USA or that lots of Americans own condos/houses in Thailand ? I think the USA has more sway with Thailand if Thai's have big money parked in America.

It wouldn't make sense economically not to take Thai money. If Thailand doesn't want USA money (but it's relatively liberal about USA investment), then that just means more stays in the country and gets spent there--or invested elsewhere. Thailand is such a small economy that it makes no difference really.

Posters just want tit for tat because of their personal inconvenience.

[JSixpack]

so how many guys are going to move to cambodia/philippines soon as a result of this crackdown?

does anyone here already thinks/plans to do it in the near future?

or are you going to wait to see what's the end result of this crackdown will be in say a month or two from now?

To do what?Said country's are also cracking down on foreigners and becoming strickter on visa rule's i think they are also getting tired of all the rif raf setting up shop in said country's .

The age of homo sex touristicus is coming to an end end they want bonafide bussinesses to invest in their respective country's.

foreigners can easily open up bussines in both cambodia and the philippines , and visa are much simpler and much cheaper than in thailand , that's a fact !!!!!!!

Go for it, man--if this is really an issue for you.

[JSixpack]

so how many guys are going to move to cambodia/philippines soon as a result of this crackdown?

does anyone here already thinks/plans to do it in the near future?

or are you going to wait to see what's the end result of this crackdown will be in say a month or two from now?

To do what?Said country's are also cracking down on foreigners and becoming strickter on visa rule's i think they are also getting tired of all the rif raf setting up shop in said country's .

The age of homo sex touristicus is coming to an end end they want bonafide bussinesses to invest in their respective country's.

No more tourists then? This makes me sad. I'd gotten used to having them around.

[thairay]

<snip>

BTW every guy's wife or GF on this forum is college educated with multiple doctorates.

Not mine. Mrs T was a pro kick boxer and part time Donna Summers impersonator who also worked Tuesdays and Thursdays at The Samaritans suicide helpline. She was fired from the last for mistaking her duties to include going over to kick the life out of callers while singing "Hot Love."

T

i guess you are quiet around the house

[JSixpack]

I am going to pray,pray for all those that encouraged property ownership here ,especially Thailand. You have sinned.

Dear Father ,please help these unfortunates in their hour(s) of need

Thy Kingdom come,

Thy will be done

In Patts and elsewhere

(well close enough) how you say JSiX r?

About what?

Here ya go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer

Was just thinking about putting in some UPVC windows, actually. Have to consider which company to do it . . . .

Naam early on pointed out the implication of the OP. The rest is merely paranoia and scare-mongering of the sort we love so much:

Is this really going to go as far as confiscating property bought using this method, if so it has huge implications for many

what part of

Foreign business operators

is it you don't understand?

My suggestion of extending the meaning of the OP to full asset confiscation for farangs was, however, considered baiting (I think), so I can't make that suggestion. Let's stay on topic.

Edited August 22, 2014 by JSixpack

[loppylugs1]

Someone please wake me up when there is a credible report of one farang losing his private house due to this new enforcement; otherwise it is just another smoke and mirrors crackdown

Famous words to others who bought thinking the same-same as you in a country not so far from here. All of a sudden they woke up and hundreds if not thousands were caught up in something that dragged on for years(land registry not recognising any foreigner transactions).

Most did in fact lose,just offered a pittance to its actual value

[JSixpack]

How can something be wrong ?

You can make a thai company ,pay taxes.....and then they change the law ?

Nominees is not a farang invention ,so punish the lawyers and give the farang his money back .

It is also forbidden to give the house /land /money to your wife !

So maybe burn it ?

Burning the land itself may prove difficult. I've said it before. Always remember the the TV forum poster Primal Laws Of Survival In Thailand:

1. Never invest in anything you aren't ready to lose;

2. Never own more than you can carry with you;

3. Keep your suitcase packed at all times.

Edited August 22, 2014 by JSixpack

[bobthomas]

My wife is a Thai national; I am a USA national. We live in each country roughly six months per year. But the difference in the way we are treated by each other's native country is night and day. My wife travels in and out of the USA on her Thai passport never needing a Visa. She can work, own property, own businesses, go to school, whatever. She is protected against overt discrimination and welcomed as a tax-paying, contributing part of society. But no matter how long we are married, nor how long we are in Thailand, I can never do any of those things. We are both college educated experienced professionals; but she is welcomed and wanted in my country, and I never will be in hers. Xenophobic or not, it's just plain dumb.

Cannot believe this, Travels in and out of the USA on Thai Passport never needing a visa, very special lady here. Please explain how this happens, if you have an explanation

She probably holds a permanent resident card.

Means she had to get married in the US.- but again- if the guy is married to her in Thailand-he won't have those same benefits as offered in the US.

Namely coming to Thailand with no Visa- ability to work legally , buy land................................ It makes ya wonder!

[Naam]

How can something be wrong ?

You can make a thai company ,pay taxes.....and then they change the law ?

Nominees is not a farang invention ,so punish the lawyers and give the farang his money back .

It is also forbidden to give the house /land /money to your wife !

So maybe burn it ?

Burning the land itself may prove difficult. I've said it before. Always remember the the TV forum poster Primal Laws Of Survival In Thailand:

1. Never invest in anything you aren't ready to lose;

2. Never own more than you can carry with you;

3. Keep your suitcase packed at all times.

4. keep on bitching about racist ATM fees.

5. threaten to move to Cambodia or Myanmar (that will make them sit up).

Edited August 22, 2014 by Naam

[Tham1]

is this the beginning of the end of farangs 'owning' land though nominee companies?

I already posted about this a couple of months ago that a very high official had told me they would be going after "company" owned property - but the mods pulled the post.

I could care less as I sold my place already.

[Spoonman]

My wife is a Thai national; I am a USA national. We live in each country roughly six months per year. But the difference in the way we are treated by each other's native country is night and day. My wife travels in and out of the USA on her Thai passport never needing a Visa. She can work, own property, own businesses, go to school, whatever. She is protected against overt discrimination and welcomed as a tax-paying, contributing part of society. But no matter how long we are married, nor how long we are in Thailand, I can never do any of those things. We are both college educated experienced professionals; but she is welcomed and wanted in my country, and I never will be in hers. Xenophobic or not, it's just plain dumb.

Cannot believe this, Travels in and out of the USA on Thai Passport never needing a visa, very special lady here. Please explain how this happens, if you have an explanation

She probably holds a permanent resident card.

Means she had to get married in the US.- but again- if the guy is married to her in Thailand-he won't have those same benefits as offered in the US.

Namely coming to Thailand with no Visa- ability to work legally , buy land................................ It makes ya wonder!

Nothing stopping the Husband to become a Thai citizen, then he will not need a visa or a work permit.

[boldface]

I'm rather concerned by this, although of course with these typical PR stunt broadcasts you never know exactly where you stand. I am MD of my business, 49% shares, and 51% in wife's name. She also works full time for the business in our rented office. We employ 3 staff in Pattaya and a further one in Bangkok. It was 5 until recently but we had to sack a couple for being rubbish. We are a real business, no cars, homes, condos etc are owned through it so it should pass muster. We make a profit, paid about 1m baht tax last year and don't squirrel money offshore - we live here and spend/ invest here. Even so, I am in control of the company 100% despite a minority share holding.

Reading the limited news reports, and seeing how the corrupt useless government departments operate here already, I have more or less decided to sack the staff and leave Thailand. I am completely bored with it all. Every month there is some stupid pedantic letter from some stupid department or other asking for some loose change. So many hoops to jump through for my license, needlessly of course. The country is a rot and although I have made good money here, I might as well live and work in another country and keep taking their money, but this time, not paying their taxes, not jumping through their stupid hoops, and not sitting around waiting to be next on the hit list.

[ScottGouker]

Owning a business in Thailand, and being honest with NO Land holdings, and Only Thai Workers when needed.
Goes against the rule of 4 Thai Employees per "ex-pat" Work Permit.
As long as a managing director is allowed a work permit to do business, with a properly registered Thai "Limited Corp."
there should be no problems>
The first issue that should be addressed is the mandated minimum salary for an America "part owner".
To say that a company must pay a minimum salary of B50,000 per month, is based on what?
Not every business is a billion Baht operation.
and there are already in place, many restrictions on what type of business is or is not allowed, (to prevent unfair competition )
They should also discuss a way for a good business to have a "hot-line" for reporting (safely) any lawyer who is "less than Honest"
When setting up a Thai Company. Or to deal with a Part Owner who is Thai, and violates the business charter.
There needs to be a clear set of rules and conditions for any foreign business owner, and No foreign business should be allowed to purchase or control land with a false shareholder.
There is nothing wrong with paying a fair withholding tax, or a fair tax on profits, BUT It should be based on actual business income, not a minimum mandate.
It would be helpful if all of the rules were made available (to read only) in English as well as Thai, to save any confusion. Lawyers charge a hefty sum to translate, and not all translations are accurate. If the Committee sets the translation standard, that would alleviate that problem.
Business that does not require local employees, (Such as an Import/Export operation) should be specifically exempted from being forced to show a certain number of Thai workers (all registered in the Thai social programs)
As an Exporter of Thai Goods, My company invests in Thai goods, but makes NO Local Sales, and hires many Thai factories to produce goods.
This should be taken into account in deciding the best fair rules.
We are lucky to live in Thailand.
We choose to do business here.

[NCFC]

While the daily announcements of crack downs on "Foreigners" interests keep coming you feel like its all smoke and mirrors being created by the Junta to cover the real issues

Sorry I'm not a clever guy here. What do you mean. To cover real issues

Not sure why so many are surprised. The army supports the self-sufficiency model and they dont want all these individuals owning a piece of Thailand and bringing alien ideas such as democracy into the country.

Of course self-sufficiency only applies to the masses and not the rulers who are quiet happy to make trade deals with foreigners if it leeps the rich rich

[chooka]

Just spoke to a Thai friend who owns a very successful Thai restaurant/s She is doing very well in Australia and she says that foreigners in Thailand are taking to many businesses. There are to many foreigners in Thailand.

[JesseFrank]

Someone please wake me up when there is a credible report of one farang losing his private house due to this new enforcement; otherwise it is just another smoke and mirrors crackdown

The future will tell how serious it is, but nobody will lose his property since I think the courts will allow a certain period to get legal.

Pity thing is that when a few thousand properties are on fire sale, the prices will drop as a rock, and that will include condo sales in foreign name and rental prices.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Rimmer
Flame removed

[Arkady]

This happened last time we had a military installed government. They tried to amend the Foreign Business Act (FBA) to make control of companies through preference shares with greater voting rights illegal but in the end it was not approved in the NLA as there was a hard core of members that thought it wasn't tough enough. Ministers and bureaucrats also went around issuing threats about foreigners who illegally owned "nearly all the Thai coastline" etc. In the end nothing happened at all. All the bitter and twisted bureaucrats have their own pet projects that always get shot down by elected governments, so they bring out to try on with military governments. The Sarayud government was unable to achieve anything meaningful at all, so it went after cheap brownie points by playing the nationalist card and bashing foreigners. Who can say what will happen this time?

At the end of the day, this is a real problem for foreign direct investment in the services sector which is largely blocked for majority foreign ownership under the FBA. Just like Thai investors abroad, foreign investors in Thailand have no interest in investing, if they can't have control of their own business and Thai-Chinese joint venture partners hardly ever add any significant value at all. It's time to scrap the FBA completely and replace it with a modern investment code and also permit leases of more than 30 years. There are plenty of examples they can follow: Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam and Burma etc.

[loppylugs1]

Someone please wake me up when there is a credible report of one farang losing his private house due to this new enforcement; otherwise it is just another smoke and mirrors crackdown

I hope you're right for so many people on this board that it's all smoke and mirrors, but fact is that NOBODY at this point knows if it is so or not, and that include our local troll Jsixpack.

The future will tell how serious it is, but nobody will lose his property since I think the courts will allow a certain period to get legal.

Pity thing is that when a few thousand properties are on fire sale, the prices will drop as a rock, and that will include condo sales in foreign name and rental prices.

It is all scary stuff,not just for property owners,for everyone.

Nobody in their right mind would want to stay in Thailand if these things come to pass,even the renters would want out with all their possessions,cars,bikes,furniture even their dogs and animals would be abandoned . The decline would be remarkable,guys who have known each other for years would suddenly vanish.

But these things have happened before ,so just getting used to the idea that it will all ba a'changin',easier when young,not so getting old.

[JesseFrank]

This happened last time we had a military installed government. They tried to amend the Foreign Business Act (FBA) to make control of companies through preference shares with greater voting rights illegal but in the end it was not approved in the NLA as there was a hard core of members that thought it wasn't tough enough. Ministers and bureaucrats also went around issuing threats about foreigners who illegally owned "nearly all the Thai coastline" etc. In the end nothing happened at all. All the bitter and twisted bureaucrats have their own pet projects that always get shot down by elected governments, so they bring out to try on with military governments. The Sarayud government was unable to achieve anything meaningful at all, so it went after cheap brownie points by playing the nationalist card and bashing foreigners. Who can say what will happen this time?

At the end of the day, this is a real problem for foreign direct investment in the services sector which is largely blocked for majority foreign ownership under the FBA. Just like Thai investors abroad, foreign investors in Thailand have no interest in investing, if they can't have control of their own business and Thai-Chinese joint venture partners hardly ever add any significant value at all. It's time to scrap the FBA completely and replace it with a modern investment code and also permit leases of more than 30 years. There are plenty of examples they can follow: Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam and Burma etc.

I have posted about that event in post #130

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753763-thai-nominee-shareholding-crackdown-in-pattaya-announced-by-dsi/?p=8281274

Only difference with then is that this time the NLA and the military are one and the same.

[Spoonman]

Someone please wake me up when there is a credible report of one farang losing his private house due to this new enforcement; otherwise it is just another smoke and mirrors crackdown

I hope you're right for so many people on this board that it's all smoke and mirrors, but fact is that NOBODY at this point knows if it is so or not, and that include our local troll Jsixpack.

The future will tell how serious it is, but nobody will lose his property since I think the courts will allow a certain period to get legal.

Pity thing is that when a few thousand properties are on fire sale, the prices will drop as a rock, and that will include condo sales in foreign name and rental prices.

It is all scary stuff,not just for property owners,for everyone.

Nobody in their right mind would want to stay in Thailand if these things come to pass,even the renters would want out with all their possessions,cars,bikes,furniture even their dogs and animals would be abandoned . The decline would be remarkable,guys who have known each other for years would suddenly vanish.

But these things have happened before ,so just getting used to the idea that it will all ba a'changin',easier when young,not so getting old.

Iam a renter (because I cannot own land in my own name).....

Why would I not want to stay ? not as though my life will change because people that have houses in dodgy companies lost their lot.

[loppylugs1]

Someone please wake me up when there is a credible report of one farang losing his private house due to this new enforcement; otherwise it is just another smoke and mirrors crackdown

I hope you're right for so many people on this board that it's all smoke and mirrors, but fact is that NOBODY at this point knows if it is so or not, and that include our local troll Jsixpack.

The future will tell how serious it is, but nobody will lose his property since I think the courts will allow a certain period to get legal.

Pity thing is that when a few thousand properties are on fire sale, the prices will drop as a rock, and that will include condo sales in foreign name and rental prices.

It is all scary stuff,not just for property owners,for everyone.

Nobody in their right mind would want to stay in Thailand if these things come to pass,even the renters would want out with all their possessions,cars,bikes,furniture even their dogs and animals would be abandoned . The decline would be remarkable,guys who have known each other for years would suddenly vanish.

But these things have happened before ,so just getting used to the idea that it will all ba a'changin',easier when young,not so getting old.

Iam a renter (because I cannot own land in my own name).....

Why would I not want to stay ? not as though my life will change because people that have houses in dodgy companies lost their lot.

You might think you can isolate yourself from it all,impossible.Every conversation,every thought process is given to the situation that a fair few are caught up in,if all this goes ahead I feel sorry for them ,I do.

They have been the bedrock of the expat community,someone putting down roots,and others following,sort of balances out the temporary renters

Sure to follow a purge like this are visa issues, compulsary medical insurance issues,the things quoted above do not come singularly

Done it and got the T shirt,even HM govt. got involved in the past. A sad long drawn out ending. Once what was a thriving expat community reduced to a bitter sadness

[Arkady]

is this the beginning of the end of farangs 'owning' land though nominee companies?

I already posted about this a couple of months ago that a very high official had told me they would be going after "company" owned property - but the mods pulled the post.

I could care less as I sold my place already.

It's not the beginning. That was a letter from the Interior Ministry to Land Dept offices in May 2006 telling them to investigate any company with any foreign involvement at all that tried to transfer land to its name. Previously the instructions were to refer any case where company 40% or more foreign owned applied to own land, whereas companies 39% or less foreign owned were OK.

Perhaps it is the end of the beginning.

[dagling]

They don't want us here anymore...what to do? going back to our mother land????

No, we are going to stick around and give them hell.... 55555

[JesseFrank]

They don't want us here anymore...what to do? going back to our mother land????

Or stay here and adhere to the written laws.