UK Right to Work for Britons by Descent

[Richard W]

What documents can an alleged Briton by descent by birth use to give his employer a statutory defence lest he turn out not to be allowed to work in the UK? As far as I can tell, there are just two options:

• A British passport
• A consular birth certificate plus official document citing his National Insurance number

As unexpired British passports can already be confiscated by the British Government, it looks as though Britons by descent by birth should hang on to their expired passports! Things can only get worse if the cancelling of passports is put on a statutory basis as is currently being proposed as an anti-terrorism measure. It won't just be suspected terrorists who lose their passports - expect football hooligans and sex offenders to lose them as well.

Consular birth registration is generally regarded as an unnecessary expense - the usual advice given here is not to bother doing it.

[wooloomooloo]

You'll be fine.

[Richard W]

You'll be fine.

Yes, this precise issue won't affect me or my children.

I've mentioned a related issue where my wife might have to get a biometric residence permit. She's been here long enough that answering 'no' to the three 'terrorism' questions might be untruthful. (Her defence would be that she thought that the word 'terrorist' had its normal meaning, rather than the one given on the form.) For myself, I'd have to answer 'yes' to the questions - the principal 'terrorist' organisations involved are HMG and the RAF, and I'm not accusing them of doing anything wrong!

[7by7]

As being British by descent means the person concerned was born outside the UK or a qualifying territory, most, if not all, will have a Britsh passport which they would have used to enter the UK.

No problem.

I fail to see how even the most paranoid could believe that the British government consider themselves or any branch of the UK armed forces to be terrorist organisations.

Edited September 2, 2014 by 7by7

[Richard W]

As being British by descent means the person concerned was born outside the UK or a qualifying territory, most, if not all, will have a Britsh passport which they would have used to enter the UK.

Not everyone keeps their replaced, expired passports.

I fail to see how even the most paranoid could believe that the British government consider themselves or any branch of the UK armed forces to be terrorist organisations.

Note that private prosecutions under the Terrorism Act 2000 are prohibited by Section 117(2).

The main issue is whether our involvement in recent conflicts have been for the purpose of 'advancing a political, religious or ideological cause', e.g. freedom. If they were just for the purpose of enriching George Bush's friends, it isn't terrorism! Maybe that hints at the solution - claim it was all about oil and private greed, and one can answer 'no' to the terrorism questions related to the armed conflicts. The sanctions to encourage the Iraqis to get rid of Saddam remain a problem - I've admitted to encouraging terrorism because I supported them, but couldn't see any way Saddam would go peacefully.

Apparently the definition of 'terrorism' was broadened when the Terrorism Act 2000 was drafted because it was decided that there were no governments bad enough to justify taking up arms against. Consequently, we end up with the British government unwittingly defining the RAF to be a terrorist organisation.

[7by7]

No, consequently we end up with the paranoid trying to scare people on internet forums for no reason!

[tw25rw]

As being British by descent means the person concerned was born outside the UK or a qualifying territory, most, if not all, will have a Britsh passport which they would have used to enter the UK.

Not everyone keeps their replaced, expired passports.

If it's your only proof of your right to live and work in the country, it would be stupid not to.

[bobrussell]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/311668/Code_of_practice_on_preventing_illegal_working.pdf

Pages 13 and 14.

Job done! Any more scary or paranoid questions you want answered?

[Richard W]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/311668/Code_of_practice_on_preventing_illegal_working.pdf

Pages 13 and 14.

Job done! Any more scary or paranoid questions you want answered?

How about, "Who put you up to this question?"

Seriously, let us go through the list of documents.

A.1 - British citizen passport - absent by hypothesis.

A.2 - Other EEA or Swiss passport - Let us assume that the subject has a single nationality (without loss of generality, the subject could be dual British-Thai)

A.3 - Registration certificate - Unlikely, and certainly not normally available to British single nationals.

A.4 - Permanent resident card - Again, I don't believe this would be available to a British national.

A.5 - Biometric residence permit - not available to British single nationals.

A.6 - Current passport showing ILR or right of abode - absent for British single nationals.

A.7 - Current Immigration Status Document - discussed below.

A.8 - A full birth certificate or adoption issued in the UK - difficult, but see below.

A.9 - A full birth certificate or adoption issued in the Channel Islands, Isle of Man or Ireland - OK, I restrict 'abroad' to 'outside the British Isles'.

A.10 - A certificate of registration or naturalisation - not available if born British, except for those renouncing British citizenship and then resuming it. To do this, one would nowadays need to have had 'an official letter or statement from the country you’re currently a citizen or national of saying that if you hadn’t given up your British citizenship you’d have lost or failed to get your current citizenship or nationality'. I'll simply argue that one would then not be British by descent by birth.

B1.1 - A current passport endorsed to show that the holder is allowed to work in the UK - absent for single nationals.

B1.2 - Biometric residence permit - not available to British single nationals.

B1.3 - Current residence card - not available to British single nationals.

B1.4 - Current immigration status document, suitably endorsed - discussed below

B2.1 - Certificate of application - not available to British single nationals.

B2.2 - Application registration card - not available to British nationals.

B2.3 - Positive verification notice - this actually implies that one of the others options may become available, so I will ignore this one.

The possibilities for a British single national are a consular birth certificate and possibly a current immigration status document. Well, a much delayed consular birth registration looks possible if a British parent is still alive. Is this what you mean by 'job done'?

According to the Home Office websites, 'An immigration status document is given to an applicant following the grant of leave where no passport is held, or it would not be appropriate to endorse a national passport'. Are you saying a British citizen could be issued an immigration status document? It would be a good solution, but I suspect it can only be used if it records leave to remain, which rules it out as explained below.

For a dual national, it gets interesting. In law, a British citizen cannot have leave to enter or remain, but I suppose it might be possible to have the foreign passport so endorsed. A better possibility would be to have the foreign passport endorsed to show right of abode. The only way I can see that that can be refused is if the holder of a passport that gets confiscated remains its holder, in which case he would have to wait until it expired.

[sustento]

Notice my unusual and rather stylish hat? I always wear it on threads like this

[Richard W]

Sustento, are you aware that unexpired cancelled passports can be confiscated? Schedule 8 to the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 came into force in March this year. 'Having a passport is a privilege, not a right'.

I started this thread to check on the effect of losing one's passport in the UK. I wondered if I had missed a workable substitute applicable to working. There is an enormous list of documents that may be used to acceptably demonstrate legal qualification to reside in private rented accommodation under the legislation being phased in, but not for working legally. At least, there is an enormous list in the draft regulations.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Richard W

[Richard W]

Not everyone keeps their replaced, expired passports.

If it's your only proof of your right to live and work in the country, it would be stupid not to.

The current passport would be the evidence for employers and landlords - until it was confiscated.

Moreover, a chain of birth certificates would normally be evidence of the right to live, work and even rent private accommodation. However, an employer or, from December in the West Midlands, a private landlord, would face a hefty fine if the alleged Briton did not actually have the right to work or live in the country.

[7by7]

I started this thread to check on the effect of losing one's passport in the UK.

Really? I find that very hard to believe; I think, like all your other scaremongering threads, you started it for a very different reason.

But if you are worried about losing your British passport or it being stolen; don't be. A replacement is simple enough to obtain.

Whether it was lost or stolen in the UK or lost or stolen abroad, e.g. Thailand.

I hope that no member of this board or a member of their family is the sort of person to have their passports confiscated, whether expired or uncancelled, and even were that to happen they would still have their current one.

Unless they were deprived of it because they were a terrorist or career criminal. Are you accusing members here of being such?

[Richard W]

I started this thread to check on the effect of losing one's passport in the UK.

I find that very hard to believe; I think, like all your other scaremongering threads, you started it for a very different reason.

'Losing' includes mislaying, theft and confiscation.

I hope that no member of this board or a member of their family is the sort of person to have their passports confiscated, whether expired or uncancelled, and even were that to happen they would still have their current one.

It is the current passport that would be confiscated. Don't bet your life on such an inconvenience not happening.

Unless they were deprived of it because they were a terrorist or career criminal. Are you accusing members here of being such?

I think you're confusing being deprived of citizenship and having one's passport confiscated.

[Richard W]

But if you are worried about losing your British passport or it being stolen; don't be. A replacement is simple enough to obtain.

One trusts a replacement for a mislaid passport would be obtained within the time scale of a transfer of undertaking, though in the past I have seen complaints about the tardiness of replacements. In post 3 I pointed out that this wasn't such a problem for me - I was born in England and still have my National Insurance card. Birth certificate plus national insurance care covers me.

Incidentally, there appear to be some dual British-non-EU nationals born abroad who got to Britain without a British passport - Boris Johnson first entered Britain on a US passport! He's not entirely off-topic, as there are Thaivisa members with tri-national (British, Thai, non-visa national) children.

[7by7]

This Channel 4 fact check is an easy to understand guide to the present situation and David Cameron outlines new anti-terror measures to MPs gives more detail on the new proposals..

Why do you think anyone here, member or family member of same, is going to be effected by the existing or the new powers and so likely to have their British passport confiscated?

Please don't repeat the crap about being in the RAF or watching Braveheart!

BTW, a National Insurance number is not evidence of British citizenship. Anyone who, legally, works in the UK must have one, British or not; that's settlement visa holders, FLR holders, ILR holders, foreign students, work permit holders, EEA nationals etc.

My wife applied for and obtained her NI number within weeks of her first arrival in the UK, three years before she was naturalised as British.

And yes, some British citizens who hold another nationality do use that other nationality and passport when they first enter the UK; there are examples in this forum of people who have done so for their children. But I fail to see how that is relevant as the necessary documents, including a British passport, can be obtained later.

Edited September 5, 2014 by 7by7

[bobrussell]

You asked a question about what documents are suitable to show entitlement to work legally in the UK.

I sent you a link to the page I use when a new member of staff starts working for me. As an employer I need to check (and be seen to have checked) every employee is allowed to work.

If by a bizarre set of circumstances the weird combination of circumstances were to arise as you theorise then I have covered my back and will not get fined.

Nobody puts me up to anything but I am intrigued by you obsession about someone having their passport confiscated or cancelled! Nothing more!

[Richard W]

This Channel 4 fact check is an easy to understand guide to the present situation and David Cameron outlines new anti-terror measures to MPs gives more detail on the new proposals..

Why do you think anyone here, member or family member of same, is going to be effected by the existing or the new powers and so likely to have their British passport confiscated?

A better briefing was provided to parliament yesterday - Deprivation of British citizenship and withdrawal of passport facilities. Regrettably, the second half of the section Practical implications of depriving citizenship or withdrawing passports is missing. However, it points out:

These are the persons who may be refused a British passport or who may have their existing passport withdrawn:

<snip>

iii. a person who was wanted by the United Kingdom police on suspicion of a

serious crime; or a person who is the subject of:

• a court order, made by a court in the United Kingdom, or any other order made

  pursuant to a statutory power, which imposes travel restrictions or restrictions

  on the possession of a valid United Kingdom passport; or

• bail conditions, imposed by a police officer or a court in the United Kingdom,

  which include travel restrictions or restrictions on the possession of a valid

  United Kingdom passport; or

• an order issued by the European Union or the United Nations which prevents a

  person travelling or entering a country other than the country in which they hold

  citizenship; or

• a declaration made under section 15 of the Mental Capacity Act 2005.

<snip>

Travel restrictions are placed on football hooligans, sex offenders and prisoners released on license. I don't expect enforcement to ease.

I believe Thaivisa members' British-Thai families are disproportionately likely to figure amongst these groups. For starters, the divorce rates are higher. Off-topic, as not born British, but in direct response to the question, the Home Office is doing its damnedest to exclude step-children with half-decent (or better) natural fathers. The fruit doesn't fall far from the tree. I may be wrong; it could be that Thaivisa British-Thai families fare better than British-Thai families as a whole and thus might fare better than the British population as a whole.

BTW, a National Insurance number is not evidence of British citizenship. Anyone who, legally, works in the UK must have one, British or not; that's settlement visa holders, FLR holders, ILR holders, foreign students, work permit holders, EEA nationals etc.

I didn't say it was. But, if you look at the Home Office list Bobrussell referenced, NI number plus British birth certificate provides an employer with an excuse - provided he doesn't know that the holder is an illegal worker.

And yes, some British citizens who hold another nationality do use that other nationality and passport when they first enter the UK; there are examples in this forum of people who have done so for their children. But I fail to see how that is relevant as the necessary documents, including a British passport, can be obtained later.

A passport is a privilege, not a right.

More seriously (I hope), a passport obtained so that one can obtain a driving license , a job or accommodation is probably the one most likely one to be seized. It tends to be young men who get themselves into trouble.

[sustento]

Are we finally in that parallel universe?

[Richard W]

You asked a question about what documents are suitable to show entitlement to work legally in the UK.

I sent you a link to the page I use when a new member of staff starts working for me. As an employer I need to check (and be seen to have checked) every employee is allowed to work.

If by a bizarre set of circumstances the weird combination of circumstances were to arise as you theorise then I have covered my back and will not get fined.

So if a British citizen born in Thailand with no evidence of leave to remain or leave to enter (never mind that these would be technically meaningless) could not produce a British passport, a consular birth certificate or any relevant documents that were not British or Thai, would you only allow him to start work for you if he produced a current Thai passport endorsed with a certificate of Right of Abode? Would the documents required to obtain such an endorsement be unable to sway you? (I'd appreciate an assessment of my wife's current employability in 'Using UK ILR Stamp' thread, where the Equality and Human Rights Commission might conceivably get involved.)

I can find web sites that such a person must (sic) not be employed, but of course he is, legally, allowed to be employed.

Nobody puts me up to anything...

You asked for a paranoid question!

Actually, viewed in isolation, it does look as though the Home Office is out to get my family. First, they didn't allow my step-daughter to join us. (My wife wouldn't let me Surinder-Singh.) We missed easy naturalisation in the hope of being able to register the step-daughter as British at the same time. Secondly, in 2006, my daughter was downgraded from British citizen first class (well, OK, there would be some loyalty issues) to British citizen on sufferance. Thirdly, this year my wife seems to have been banned from taking new employment. Until that ban (TBC in another thread), evidencing ILR by residence permit (i.e. ILR vignette) seemed much better than evidencing it by biometric residence permit, which smells like extending leave to remain ten years at a time. I'm not sure that it's worth asking about it on this forum; no-one has yet replaced an expired or expiring BRP evidencing ILR. I'm sure the Home Office does not have it in for us personally.

... but I am intrigued by you obsession about someone having their passport confiscated or cancelled!

The problem is that making Britain hostile to illegal immigrants is making it less friendly to those of us here legally, even the native British. I wonder how many passports are being taken out not to travel, but to prove one is British, and not just for security-related jobs. The attitude, 'a passport is a privilege, not a right', is incompatible with the need for a document to compactly demonstrate that one is British.

The need for this document arises from civil penalties from right-to-work and, coming in December, right-to-rent checks. The civil offence is not that one has been negligent in the check that an employee has the right to work, but simply that the employee did not have the right to work and that any fraudulent or inadequate documents checked were not the ones prescribed. The rules are framed to make civil liability easy to demonstrate, presumably because the immigration sections of the Home Office are traditionally incompetent in applying the law. I think the law on civil penalties for illegal working is unjust.

Now, the ID card introduced by Labour would have filled the gap for British citizens denied passports. Perhaps the least complication for checkers would be a new category of BRP evidencing an immigration status of 'British Citizen', issued when someone had their current passport confiscated.

With the coming right-to-rent checks, I would be well-advised to store a passport (or birth certificate and a letter showing my National Insurance number) away from home so that if our home is destroyed I can take rented accommodation while we find somewhere new or rebuild our house. (I forget how long I would have to wait for a new birth certificate.) I suppose my wife's passport evidencing ILR should not be stored at home! Alternatively, she would stay with friends while we wait for a BRP to be issued on the basis of the letter recording the grant of ILR.

[Thanet]

Jesus! What a bizarre thread.

[7by7]

It seems that the OP has had some difficulties with UKVI (previously UKBA) in the past and is now trying to convince us all that these difficulties were not due to the particular circumstances of him and his family, but will apply to us all!

I cannot comment on the refusal of his step daughter's settlement application as I don't know the details; but the words 'sole responsibility' spring immediately to mind.

Downgrading his daughter from "British citizen first class" to "British citizen on sufferance" &lt;deleted&gt;? No such classifications! Types of British Nationality

There is a word for much of what he is posting; it begins with 'bol' and ends with 'locks.'

I strongly advise anyone reading any of his posts in this forum to ignore them, or at least seek independent verification.

[Richard W]

Jesus! What a bizarre thread.

Take a look at the draft right-to-rent code of practice and review what you would do if your home burnt down.

Actually, if we were both still in work, it would probably not be so bad as I thought. We would more likely than not still have our driving licences, and would then merely need to get letters confirming our employment. Note that all adults anticipated to be in the rented accommodation have to have the 'right to rent', not just the head of the household, and landlords are likely to demand the 'acceptable' documents.

[7by7]

Jesus! What a bizarre thread.

Take a look at the draft right-to-rent code of practice and review what you would do if your home burnt down.

All my and my families passports, birth certificates etc. are stored in a fireproof safe.

Surely all sensible people do the same, or keep them off site such as in a safety deposit box at their bank.

Even if someone doesn't, alternative or replacement documents would be easily and swiftly obtainable for most.

[bobrussell]

If I am unable to confirm the rights to work for any potential employee there is a Home Office helpline. As I have never had this problem with any member of staff I can only suggest this is what I would do!

They would give me a yes or no and I would follow that!

No right to work, no job.

The system in place really is very straight forward for employers!

[7by7]

<snip>

The system in place really is very straight forward for employers!

And employees; except those who, for some reason, want to make it seem far more difficult and complicated than it actually is.

[wooloomooloo]

Are we finally in that parallel universe?

Yes.

Jesus! What a bizarre thread.

I've seen worse but, yes, still bizarre.

[Richard W]

If I am unable to confirm the rights to work for any potential employee there is a Home Office helpline. As I have never had this problem with any member of staff I can only suggest this is what I would do!

They would give me a yes or no and I would follow that!

No right to work, no job.

The system in place really is very straight forward for employers!

Good on you for employing on the basis of the right to work rather than on the ability to furnish a statutory excuse.

I am glad to hear the Home Office helpline would be so helpful. I would have feared the following answers being given together:

• If there is no fraud or concealment involved, then yes, he has the right to work.
• No, you will not have a statutory excuse against a penalty if there is fraud or concealment involved.
• We cannot advise whether you may refuse him employment for fear of a penalty. We cannot give legal advice.

Perhaps these answers are more likely for the issue of ILR endorsements in expired passports. Edited September 8, 2014 by Richard W