Kremlin hits back at Thai Immigration's out-in visa ban

[Sena Dave]

Would Russia really "Hit Back" , I'd say the potential war on their border and EU and US sanctions may be stealing their attention

Don't want to test them too much though or they'll be shooting Thai airways out of the sky

[whybother]

It's pretty simple really. If you are staying here longer term, then you need the appropriate visa. Even if you're staying here long term as a tourist, you still need the appropriate visa. Doing a number of In-Out border runs implies that you are staying in Thailand long term without the appropriate visa.

And that is relevant regardless of what nationality you are.

Simple ? No... It has not been easy these days to get the appropriate visas. Also when stopped at immigration, officers will not or cannot tell you what visa you need.

I didn't say it was simple to get visas.

It should be simple to understand. To stay here longer term, you need the appropriate visa.

The issue for some people is that they think they have a right to stay here long term on whatever visa they want. That's not the way it works ... in any country.

[JDGRUEN]

In my opinion the whole point of this issue is IF the wording of the treaty agreement between Russia and Thailand is as presented ... “According to Paragraph 1 of a bilateral intergovernmental agreement [between Russia and Thailand], Russian tourists are allowed to enter Thailand for up to 30 days, after which they must leave the country, [but] the number of entries is not limited.” ... then Thailand is unilaterally reneging on the treaty without any formal discussion between the parties.

But it remains to be seen that in that referenced treaty the wording "...[but] the number of entries is not limited.”... is really there or not ... or was it just implied or inferred because no wording was including prohibiting numerous entries or otherwise limiting the number.

Even if the treat is as claimed, I doubt much could be done about it - except to stop allowing all tourist from Russia to visit Thailand. If there was enough economic impact then Thailand might change its mind. Or if Russia is supplying other services or loans or energy ... then Russia would have some sway in the matter. Or it might be that such publicity only adds to the dismal Public Relations Thailand is currently projecting and things will change.

But with Russians and all others ... I find it incongruous that Thai Immigration suddenly starts to enforce an old dusty law that they had not been enforced at all for many years ... and even facilitated the comings and goings of people across borders doing ridiculous border runs / visa runs - making the ins and outs totally allowed - and now not only wants to begin enforcement but call those who availed themselves of the NON ENFORCEMENT in past years abusers or worse ... Amazing Thailand... TiT... (let the dog out of the cage to run free - then put the dog back in the cage and call him BAD DOG)... so fricken funny. And TVF members who join in with this absurdity by Thai Immigration and call people names for doing only what was allowed and facilitated at the time are even more duplicitous than Thai Immigration.

I've highlighted in red why I believe your assertion that Thailand is reneging on the treaty is not accurate...

If they are (believed to be) working, they are not tourists. If they are not tourists, Thailand is not reneging on the deal.

Your argument might have a leg to stand on IF you can post a link to an official Thailand Government Document defining what a tourist is - how long they are allowed to stay, etc. Surely you have that link form Thai Immigration maybe? You and others want to use a simplistic outdated concept of what a tourist is and the length of stay allowed a tourist with no basis other than your opinion as to what it should be.

I am no fan of Russians here in Thailand - some of the most rude , loud and obnoxious people I have met in Thailand are Russians... but I live and let live - it is not my business. And yes - many are refused to be allowed entry because someone believes they are working!... Based only on an in and out pattern ... Could it be that the in and out pattern is due to it is one of the very few ways they can stay here if under age 50 and nothing more? Yes - absolutely Thai immigration can do what it wants to - be arbitrary, capricious and even harsh and they are obviously free to also act stupidly - against their own country's long interests. Thai Immigration just cannot do it the hard way ... go to shops along the tourists areas and find those who are working here illegally. It is amazing that they cannot do it -- I see them everyday here in Ao Nang... And yes I know one when I see one ... that 30ish blonde European gal working in the upscale hamburger place is not here legally - 9 times out of 10... nor is the 40ish European guy in Koh Samui working the tour shop at Arc Bar here legally either... Russians running amok all over Pattaya and Phuket and no one can spot them working? ... I bet I could. Thailand is taking the shotgun - big easy net approach and has no care as to who they label as 'working' and no proof either. . . I don't think Thailand should allow illegal workers - but they are going about it the wrong damned way.

Hey - I would like a part time job to save up for a few business ideas... and after Thai immigration runs off all the under age 50 crowd - me being way over 50 - able bodied - here on an easy to get long term visa - in six more months or so I am going to be a very sought after popular item... Love it.

[jacko45k]

good to see a western country standing up for it's citizens

wish mine would

Western Country, do you need a map?

Do you?

You can get to Russia heading NW, or North, But it's main population centres can be regarded as Western, and planning to be more-so.

[simondan]

good to see a western country standing up for it's citizens

wish mine would

Is Russian a 'western' country? I think technically they are Eastern.

[cyborgx]

In all fairness, the Thai authorities should not be dictating what a tourist should be. At the end of the day if you are in this country and you are not working, you do the border runs, you abide by the rules etc what is the problem. ''If they really want to travel around the country for more than 30 days, then they must show us a plausible plan''. WHY? There may be no grand plan! this is pure paranoia. ''If we believe their purpose in coming to Thailand is not what they say it is, then we will order them to leave and they will be blacklisted. They will not be able to return to Thailand, ever.” So if a guy says i want to stay here for a year or two spend my money and have a good time this warrants a life time ban? What are these people thinking, it it totally bizarre. If they work ban them, fine but don't tarnish everyone with the same brush.

In their eyes you are not a TOURIST if you constantly do back to back iout-ins, and its THEIR MEANING when they wrote the laws that is important, not yours or anybody else's definition.

And this person who wants to spend 2 years or so here, why would the Thai government WANT to LET him star for 2 years or so?

Because he's spending money? How much? They have no way of knowing or controlling it, so the guy could be a pauper and come live on the streets for 2 years, then overstay.. etc etc... as has happened in the past.

They have set their minimum FINANCIAL requirements and given various ways to fulfill them.

showing 800K investment/living expenses in the bank and or minimum regular income for Retireees

10M invested in government bonds, government bank TD, and I believe property too.

1-2M and annual 20K for Elite Card

If he doesn't meet any of those requirements, is not married to a Thai, has no job and is not here for his education (or any of the more obscure Visa options), then THEY DON'T WANT HIM HERE (no matter how much YOU believe he should be allowed to stay).

Edited September 12, 2014 by cyborgx

[Suradit69]

So how exactly is the Russian government 'hitting back'? What a piece of garbage journalism.

Need some glasses?

“According to Paragraph 1 of a bilateral intergovernmental agreement [between Russia and Thailand], Russian tourists are allowed to enter Thailand for up to 30 days, after which they must leave the country, [but] the number of entries is not limited.”

i.e. they can do in and outs as many times as they wish.

There's a difference between "responding to" or "disagreeing with" and "hitting back," which implies some tit-for-tat reprisal.

[spidermike007]

Did TAT shoot themselves in a leg?

Whatever I might think of Russian tourists, - moneywise they were a huge chunk of tourist dollars here.

Immigration appears to be designing very unintelligent policy completely lacking regard for tourism, nor the long term impact their completely bone headed policies are having on the Thai economy. The ramifications of this are going to be enormous, and long term. Long after this regime is out of power the effects will be felt. Someone with wisdom and intelligence needs to step up, and talk control of this policy. Tourists are being scared away daily and they may never come back. There are simply too many alternatives to Thailand. It is not the greatest country on earth, contrary to the opinion of these tiny men who are creating these ignorant policies that have little to do with illegal workers. If a tourist wants to stay another month, and spend another 100,000 baht, you do not make it hard for him or her to do that. You welcome them with flowers and candy.

[mok199]

this will hurt russia,as most russians stay at mob owned hotels and use russian mob owned escorts...

[whybother]

Did TAT shoot themselves in a leg?

Whatever I might think of Russian tourists, - moneywise they were a huge chunk of tourist dollars here.

Immigration appears to be designing very unintelligent policy completely lacking regard for tourism, nor the long term impact their completely bone headed policies are having on the Thai economy. The ramifications of this are going to be enormous, and long term. Long after this regime is out of power the effects will be felt. Someone with wisdom and intelligence needs to step up, and talk control of this policy. Tourists are being scared away daily and they may never come back. There are simply too many alternatives to Thailand. It is not the greatest country on earth, contrary to the opinion of these tiny men who are creating these ignorant policies that have little to do with illegal workers. If a tourist wants to stay another month, and spend another 100,000 baht, you do not make it hard for him or her to do that. You welcome them with flowers and candy.

Exactly how many tourists (or just to make it easy, visitors) do multiple In-Out visa runs?

Most people coming to Thailand come here for less than a month. A small number come here with relevant visas, be that tourist, education or non-immigrant.

A very, VERY small percentage of visitors are here longer term either doing regular border runs or not having a visa. A high proportion of this group are most likely working illegally.

"Tourists" are not being scared away by this policy. People that are bending the rules are being scared away by this policy. Thai Immigration couldn't care less if these people go to alternative countries.

[cyborgx]

In my opinion the whole point of this issue is IF the wording of the treaty agreement between Russia and Thailand is as presented ... “According to Paragraph 1 of a bilateral intergovernmental agreement [between Russia and Thailand], Russian tourists are allowed to enter Thailand for up to 30 days, after which they must leave the country, [but] the number of entries is not limited.” ... then Thailand is unilaterally reneging on the treaty without any formal discussion between the parties.

But it remains to be seen that in that referenced treaty the wording "...[but] the number of entries is not limited.”... is really there or not ... or was it just implied or inferred because no wording was including prohibiting numerous entries or otherwise limiting the number.

Even if the treat is as claimed, I doubt much could be done about it - except to stop allowing all tourist from Russia to visit Thailand. If there was enough economic impact then Thailand might change its mind. Or if Russia is supplying other services or loans or energy ... then Russia would have some sway in the matter. Or it might be that such publicity only adds to the dismal Public Relations Thailand is currently projecting and things will change.

But with Russians and all others ... I find it incongruous that Thai Immigration suddenly starts to enforce an old dusty law that they had not been enforced at all for many years ... and even facilitated the comings and goings of people across borders doing ridiculous border runs / visa runs - making the ins and outs totally allowed - and now not only wants to begin enforcement but call those who availed themselves of the NON ENFORCEMENT in past years abusers or worse ... Amazing Thailand... TiT... (let the dog out of the cage to run free - then put the dog back in the cage and call him BAD DOG)... so fricken funny. And TVF members who join in with this absurdity by Thai Immigration and call people names for doing only what was allowed and facilitated at the time are even more duplicitous than Thai Immigration.

I've highlighted in red why I believe your assertion that Thailand is reneging on the treaty is not accurate...

If they are (believed to be) working, they are not tourists. If they are not tourists, Thailand is not reneging on the deal.

Your argument might have a leg to stand on IF you can post a link to an official Thailand Government Document defining what a tourist is - how long they are allowed to stay, etc. Surely you have that link form Thai Immigration maybe? You and others want to use a simplistic outdated concept of what a tourist is and the length of stay allowed a tourist with no basis other than your opinion as to what it should be.

Weeellll, the Thai Government document and definition of a tourist (in your own words "how long they are allowed to stay, etc.") is in the Thai immigration rules, that's the document you are looking for. Don't ask us to show it to you, go find it yourself and if necessary learn to read it! As already stated, its not mine, BWindiBoy's or your definition of the word Tourist that's important here, its that of the Thai Government, contained in their rules and clearly shows that they define a tourist as someone VISITING their country, usallly for 30 days or less.

Edited September 12, 2014 by cyborgx

[spidermike007]

Did TAT shoot themselves in a leg?

Whatever I might think of Russian tourists, - moneywise they were a huge chunk of tourist dollars here.

Immigration appears to be designing very unintelligent policy completely lacking regard for tourism, nor the long term impact their completely bone headed policies are having on the Thai economy. The ramifications of this are going to be enormous, and long term. Long after this regime is out of power the effects will be felt. Someone with wisdom and intelligence needs to step up, and talk control of this policy. Tourists are being scared away daily and they may never come back. There are simply too many alternatives to Thailand. It is not the greatest country on earth, contrary to the opinion of these tiny men who are creating these ignorant policies that have little to do with illegal workers. If a tourist wants to stay another month, and spend another 100,000 baht, you do not make it hard for him or her to do that. You welcome them with flowers and candy.

Exactly how many tourists (or just to make it easy, visitors) do multiple In-Out visa runs?

Most people coming to Thailand come here for less than a month. A small number come here with relevant visas, be that tourist, education or non-immigrant.

A very, VERY small percentage of visitors are here longer term either doing regular border runs or not having a visa. A high proportion of this group are most likely working illegally.

"Tourists" are not being scared away by this policy. People that are bending the rules are being scared away by this policy. Thai Immigration couldn't care less if these people go to alternative countries.

I could not disagree more. I have had countless friends visit over the years, who are wealthy, and drop insane amounts of money here, and they have done border runs, or gotten extensions, when they have decided to extend their trips. I agree once this has been done five or ten, or fifty times, it is something else, though in many of these instances they are not working in Thailand. But, once or twice? What is the harm in that? That is just boneheaded policy. Plain and simple. Policy designed with not one iota of forethought, nor vision.

[whybother]

I could not disagree more. I have had countless friends visit over the years, who are wealthy, and drop insane amounts of money here, and they have done border runs, or gotten extensions, when they have decided to extend their trips. I agree once this has been done five or ten, or fifty times, it is something else, though in many of these instances they are not working in Thailand. But, once or twice? What is the harm in that? That is just boneheaded policy. Plain and simple. Policy designed with not one iota of forethought, nor vision.

Immigration isn't stopping people who do this "once or twice". It's the ones doing it more than that that they are singling out.

[Christie Paul]

At a time when geopolitical sensitivities are heightened, along with a contraction in the world economy, may not seem precisely the right time to scare away tourists from the world largest energy producer.

Doubtless, Indonesia and the Philippines will welcome Russian tourists.

[cyborgx]

Did TAT shoot themselves in a leg?

Whatever I might think of Russian tourists, - moneywise they were a huge chunk of tourist dollars here.

Immigration appears to be designing very unintelligent policy completely lacking regard for tourism, nor the long term impact their completely bone headed policies are having on the Thai economy. The ramifications of this are going to be enormous, and long term. Long after this regime is out of power the effects will be felt. Someone with wisdom and intelligence needs to step up, and talk control of this policy. Tourists are being scared away daily and they may never come back. There are simply too many alternatives to Thailand. It is not the greatest country on earth, contrary to the opinion of these tiny men who are creating these ignorant policies that have little to do with illegal workers. If a tourist wants to stay another month, and spend another 100,000 baht, you do not make it hard for him or her to do that. You welcome them with flowers and candy.

ENORMOUS Ramifications!? - yes they are throwing out some of the wheat with the chaff, but in their eyes the benefits outweigh the losses.

"Tiny men" creating "IGNORANT policies"? - Firstly I'd be careful who you call ignorant in Thailand, and secondly they are not CREATING the policies just enforcing them, as already explained about a thousand times on TVF.

Little to do with Illegal Workers - Since that is one of the main reasons they state they are enforcing these rules harder, me thinks it is MOSTLY to do with illegal workers.

Tourist, another month, 100K - I put it to you that the REGULAR out and inners spend more like an average of 30K/month, but the Thai government has no way of knowing and neither do we. REAL TOURISTS on the other hand are more likelly to be spending higher amounts on travelling accommodation, sightseeing, eating out and shopping. They however usually find 30 days enough and certainly don't need years of back to back tourist visas.

I suggest you go and invite the next 5 out-in applicants with more than a year's back to back out-ins, home to your own home in your own country when they are refused entry. I'd be amused to see how long you and your country put up with them.....

[Suradit69]

good to see a western country standing up for it's citizens

wish mine would

Not sure how "western" Russia is, but I would say that Thailand was standing up to a bully who has found itself an international pariah. And then Russia, who has no shortage of critics at the moment, chooses to make a rather pathetic response and chooses to make it to a country that seems the least threatening. "Western" is not a synonym for "pale complexioned."

If there is a decline in Russian tourists it probably has more to do with economic issues than any feeble comment from "the Kremlin" to a Thai immigrations policy.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Suradit69

[jpeg]

So how exactly is the Russian government 'hitting back'? What a piece of garbage journalism.

I have to agree. Trash and beyond misleading. It should have read "Kremlin comments on...". Hits back literally and figuratively means doing something in retaliation.

You must admit the headline rather eyecatching though BTW 'Kremlin' and 'THAI Immigration'

[emilymat]

good to see a western country standing up for it's citizens

wish mine would

I want my country to 'stand up' for me if I'm being mistreated abroad and have done nothing to deserve it. Thailand can let in and kick out whoever it wants from its own country. As long as other nationals are not being abused or mistreated while they are here, then 'sticking up for its citizens' by anyone else about what the visa or any other regulations should be is basically null and void as its not their business! I wish my country (England) would stand up for its citizens, first and foremost IN England, from all the 'horror stories I keep reading about and hearing, as opposed to those who come in and DEMAND special rights. NO-ONE has a right to demand special treatment in another's country. This is something the Thais, and many other countries, do naturally tend towards, their OWN over other incoming nationals (although I do find if I act with due respect here then I am too am afforded general fairness and respect back from the authorities).. 'My House, My Rules'.. is what it all boils down to. As long as the rules are clear to be seen and there for everyone and not simply disrespectful or draconian, then is that such a bad thing?

Like your post, but don't give the 'yes' camp more ammunition. You're from the UK.

[Pundi6446]

Would be great if the Thai Immigration could keep them out all together, Pattaya might have a little hope of being a town worth visiting again.

[Baerboxer]

Putin gonna invade Thailand too?

No chance, Yingluck will put in a good word

putinying.jpg

She seemed to like President Obama better!

[Baerboxer]

good to see a western country standing up for it's citizens

wish mine would

...RUSSIA A WESTERN COUNTRY....OUCH.?????

I believe he's referring to European Russia or Western Russia where the capital city Moscow is located in Eastern Europe.

BTW are you a "CAPITALIST"?

Russia is a big country! Ask the people in Vladivostok if they feel "Western".

Russia is not usually included in the term "Western" used by journalists.

[Oziex1]

Does any of this really matter if in the end, the immigration official at the gate has the final say on who can enter and who cannot.

[brain150]

Entry into Thailand (or anywhere else) is always at the discretion of the immigration officer. They don't need to give any reason for refusing entry no matter what the Kremlin might believe.

This is simply WRONG !

The Immigration officer has by law NO authority to refuse entry when visa regulations or bilateral agreements are followed !!!

Immigration officers [just like the Police] might think they can do what ever they want ... still, it is against their own laws !

[arisaje]

Entry into Thailand (or anywhere else) is always at the discretion of the immigration officer. They don't need to give any reason for refusing entry no matter what the Kremlin might believe.

They have a contract with Russia. If they brake this contract Russia can also change the Visa rules for Thais.

I don't think many Thai's flood to Russia to spend money.....so changing the rules for Thai's entering the country probably has no effect.

I dont understand why the Russian's are whining however, the 30 day entry with no visa for genuine tourists is fine.... A legitimate tourist arriving from Russia or any other nation for their annual vacation and time off from a 'paid' job back home, probably doesn't get more than 30 days anyway.

What Russia really wants is for its citizens to spread out around the world and get employment elsewhere.....because they certainly don't have enough work for people back in Russia, hence them whining about why they cannot stay in Thailand indefinitely. The majority of Russia suffers from huge unemployment and economical problems.

[AYJAYDEE]

Entry into Thailand (or anywhere else) is always at the discretion of the immigration officer. They don't need to give any reason for refusing entry no matter what the Kremlin might believe.

This is simply WRONG !

The Immigration officer has by law NO authority to refuse entry when visa regulations or bilateral agreements are followed !!!

Immigration officers [just like the Police] might think they can do what ever they want ... still, it is against their own laws !

american IO's do it all the time

[Oziex1]

Here we go again trying to add clarity to the muddy water of Thai immigration policy. Yeah I know the rules are pretty clear, but the administration of the rules is unclear, to say the least.

[arisaje]

Entry into Thailand (or anywhere else) is always at the discretion of the immigration officer. They don't need to give any reason for refusing entry no matter what the Kremlin might believe.

This is simply WRONG !

The Immigration officer has by law NO authority to refuse entry when visa regulations or bilateral agreements are followed !!!

Immigration officers [just like the Police] might think they can do what ever they want ... still, it is against their own laws !

That is actually not true "An immigration office can reject anyone from entering the country, whether they need a visa or not, or even in the event they have a valid visa"

I know of quite a few people traveling traveling to the US, Canada, UK, Australia etc. with valid visas......but getting declined entry by immigration. It nearly happened to me once arriving in Florida for a vacation, they were not going to let me in because i had some Algerian stamps in my passport from working there....immigration didn't like them though and i had to get a letter faxed from my employer or they were going to send me back to London.

Immigration officers are actually above the regular laws of a country, they are the first line of that countries law enforcement.......and if they don't like you......you're not getting in.

[Baerboxer]

Entry into Thailand (or anywhere else) is always at the discretion of the immigration officer. They don't need to give any reason for refusing entry no matter what the Kremlin might believe.

This is simply WRONG !

The Immigration officer has by law NO authority to refuse entry when visa regulations or bilateral agreements are followed !!!

Immigration officers [just like the Police] might think they can do what ever they want ... still, it is against their own laws !

I'm sure they will listen to your reasoned arguments and give your comments full consideration should they ever dare to question you.

The Immigration officers are the Royal Thai Police. Look closely at the big badges painted very big on the walls, for a clue.

The laws all seem to have the caveat that the final decision and interpretation rests with the assessing officer. Of course, there are some rights of appeal, you can ask to speak with someone senior etc.

Should this happen to you, do let us know how you get on once you've pointed out the error of their ways, and their lack of legal understanding to them.

[Torrens54]

Did TAT shoot themselves in a leg?

Whatever I might think of Russian tourists, - moneywise they were a huge chunk of tourist dollars here.

It wasn't TAT that changed the rules.

Some people are very quick to blame the TAT. In this case, the TAT had NOTHING to do with it. No doubt the Tourist Department in the country where the Op comes from is "the best that MONEY can Buy."

Edited September 12, 2014 by Torrens54

[Tatsujin]

So how exactly is the Russian government 'hitting back'? What a piece of garbage journalism.

Need some glasses?

“According to Paragraph 1 of a bilateral intergovernmental agreement [between Russia and Thailand], Russian tourists are allowed to enter Thailand for up to 30 days, after which they must leave the country, [but] the number of entries is not limited.”

i.e. they can do in and outs as many times as they wish.

There's a difference between "responding to" or "disagreeing with" and "hitting back," which implies some tit-for-tat reprisal.

You guys obviously have a different English education to myself with regards to the usage of "hitting back":

to attack or criticize someone who has attacked or criticized you:

In tonight's speech, the minister is expected to hit back at critics who have attacked her handling of the crisis.