Landlord secretly sold the house I've been renting for 8 yrs. - what now?

[2beornot2be]

I just got a surprise visit from a person who claims to be the new owner of the house that I've been renting for more than eight years (without a written contract but trouble-free).

He produced documents showing that he signed a sell/buy contract with my former Landlord some 18 months(!) ago. Last month (September 2014), my Landlord asked for permission for some bank officials to enter her property for an assessment of the estate's value in order to "refinance" her mortgage. Getting suspicious, I asked her if she was going to sell her house. She said no. I also asked her if she was respecting our contract and she said yes: "don't worry, no change, everything the same like before".

It now turned out that she sold the house, without ever telling me. There was no mention of my contract in any of the documents confirming the transfer of ownership. Because the old owner did not inform me of the changes, I've already paid my rent for October to her account, on 1st of the month as usual.

The new owner wants me to pay my rent into his bank-account. He declines any obligation regarding my old contract and wants me to sign a new, written one and less favorable than my former agreement, i.e. a steep rise in the monthly rent and a substantial safety deposit. He grants me a grace-period until 31st December to get things done...

The whole story sounds so absurd that I start smelling something fishy behind the scene. Tax evasion, maybe? I can of course prove that I always paid my rent in due time, totaling an amount of several hundred-thousand baht.

What rights (if any) do I have in this situation? Is the new owner in any way bound to respect my former contract? What is your advice?

[harrry]

Sounds as if you have been lucky. You do have the option to keep staying there. Many new owners just give you the one months notice or even just throw you out when your last payment expires.

[steelepulse]

I'd look for a new place, unless you want to pay more rent and have a contract not to your liking.

[PiPiFFS]

Without a written contract things could be a lot worse. At least the new owner is giving you some time. Your best bet is to try to negotiate with the new owner and come to a happy medium. Your biggest bargaining point here is you are a good renter. Something landlords want more than anything. It puts you in a good position Good luck

[Langsuan Man]

Why in the world would you even think, without a lease, that the landlord has to inform you of anything

[2beornot2be]

Why in the world would you even think, without a lease, that the landlord has to inform you of anything

First: It's a question of good manners, isn't it?

Second: Talking open and fair could help to avoid a lot of problems and/or misunderstandings.

Third: Even without a written lease-contract, you have in fact a contract with certain mutual rights and obligations.

For instance: The Landlord can not just end that contract at his own will.

If he wants you to move out and you refuse, he needs to get a court order.

He might not want to do that in order to avoid an investigation into tax fraud.

I believe that's what happened in my case...

[ldnguy]

You say you don't have a contract and then ask if the new owner has to respect it. The answer is that there is not contract to respect. He's given yo a fair amount of time to sort things out, so you have the choice to stay or leave.

[curtklay]

I think you should post this in the "Ask a Lawyer" forum for more knowledgeable information.

[TheCruncher]

without a written contract

That should have answered all the questions you may have regarding your legal rights and saved you the time to start a thread.

[2beornot2be]

You say you don't have a contract and then ask if the new owner has to respect it. The answer is that there is not contract to respect. He's given yo a fair amount of time to sort things out, so you have the choice to stay or leave.

Fair enough and I am not complaining! Laymen often don't understand that there can be a contract between two parties even if its not written on a piece of paper. That is certainly true in my case. So I never said that I didn't have a contract - quite the contrary! I am just interested to know whether such a contract automatically ends at the moment of a legal transfer of ownership and if a landlord needs to inform the tenant of such change.

[Danhig]

"It now turned out that she sold the house, without ever telling me. "

Haha. I love Thailand.

Look around, and get ready to move. They new owner is going to try to do you (stupid, rich) falang with the rent increase.

[TheCruncher]

Why in the world would you even think, without a lease, that the landlord has to inform you of anything

First: It's a question of good manners, isn't it?

Second: Talking open and fair could help to avoid a lot of problems and/or misunderstandings.

Third: Even without a written lease-contract, you have in fact a contract with certain mutual rights and obligations.

For instance: The Landlord can not just end that contract at his own will.

If he wants you to move out and you refuse, he needs to get a court order.

He might not want to do that in order to avoid an investigation into tax fraud.

I believe that's what happened in my case...

I guess your brain is still in nanny state mode.

In Thailand there are no "the renter is always right laws", even if you have a legal contract, and you may consider yourself lucky that there hasn't knocked a bouncer on on your door yet.

Edit: realised that I was talking to the OP

Edited October 9, 2014 by TheCruncher

[casualbiker]

You say you don't have a contract and then ask if the new owner has to respect it. The answer is that there is not contract to respect. He's given yo a fair amount of time to sort things out, so you have the choice to stay or leave.

Fair enough and I am not complaining! Laymen often don't understand that there can be a contract between two parties even if its not written on a piece of paper. That is certainly true in my case. So I never said that I didn't have a contract - quite the contrary! I am just interested to know whether such a contract automatically ends at the moment of a legal transfer of ownership and if a landlord needs to inform the tenant of such change.

You have a verbal contract (not sure how Thailand views those) on something like renting a house I imagine not favorably due to the fact that the land office provide standardized rental contracts for less than 100baht! I would suggest that you ask the old landlord for your money back.

[Old Croc]

Over 8 years you paid a total of several hundred thousand baht rent!

Depending what 'several' means that appears to be very cheap rent over a long time. I guess you either wear the increase or look for something else as cheap.

In this country a verbal contract is only worth the paper it's not written on.

[manarak]

If OP has been renting for over 8 years and the total amount paid is less than a million, the rent is very low indeed.

OP, the owner does not have to inform you about a sale, a new owner would just have to take over whatever *written* rental agreement there was, but could in any case break it with a 3 months notice at most.

My point of view is that you do not have any options, besides accepting the new terms, negociate or leave.

P.S. ... perfectly normal from my point of view, renter protection laws in Europe are abusive towards owners.

[2beornot2be]

I think you should post this in the "Ask a Lawyer" forum for more knowledgeable information.

Just done so! Thank you very much for your helpful advice!

[jbaldwin]

This is fairly simple.

You had a contract with the old owner.

No have no contract with the new contract

If the contract has not been honored you could only claim redress against the old owner, which does not really help you because he no longer owns the property.

[Traxster]

Start packing !

[ClutchClark]

If the sale was finalized 18 months ago, then which party had the responsibility to notify the OP? The old or new landlord?

Also, had the OP not been making payments to the old landlord/owner for these past 18 months? Why didn't the new owner speak up long ago asking for his rent money? Was the old owner forwarding these monthly payments to the new owner these past 18 months? Then one might wonder if the old and new owner are not family or friends to share business like this?

Thanks

[beachproperty]

A little confused here????

First you say you have rented for 8 years "without a written contract but trouble-free"

And then go on about your rights under the contract!

"Is the new owner in any way bound to respect my former contract?" What contract???? the oral contract wherein you agree to pay whatever rent the Landlord says for use of the home..ie an oral monthy rental agreement? Looks like your up sh#t creek without a paddle!

THIS IS THAILAND!....Your not in Kansas anymore.

Landlord wants you to sign a lease, either sign it or move on. If not, expect a few Thai's to visit you and not the nice one's or maybe you'll come home one day and the locks have been changed and all your stuff is in the front yard!

You don't sound happy with the situation....best to just move on. Count yourself lucky that the new landlord has given you until Dec to move on

Edited October 9, 2014 by beachproperty

[2beornot2be]

If the sale was finalized 18 months ago, then which party had the responsibility to notify the OP? The old or new landlord?

Also, had the OP not been making payments to the old landlord/owner for these past 18 months? Why didn't the new owner speak up long ago asking for his rent money? Was the old owner forwarding these monthly payments to the new owner these past 18 months? Then one might wonder if the old and new owner are not family or friends to share business like this?

Thanks

Thank you very much for sharing your opinion. I think you analyzed the situation pretty well. It appears that the old owner was under pressure to sell her property due to huge debt in her family. The new owner seized the opportunity to buy the property for a bargain. The old owner forwarded my monthly payments in the past 18 months (without my knowledge) to the new owner. And you're also right in assuming that the old and the new owner are "friends to share business like this".

[ClutchClark]

If the sale was finalized 18 months ago, then which party had the responsibility to notify the OP? The old or new landlord?

Also, had the OP not been making payments to the old landlord/owner for these past 18 months? Why didn't the new owner speak up long ago asking for his rent money? Was the old owner forwarding these monthly payments to the new owner these past 18 months? Then one might wonder if the old and new owner are not family or friends to share business like this?

Thanks

Thank you very much for sharing your opinion. I think you analyzed the situation pretty well. It appears that the old owner was under pressure to sell her property due to huge debt in her family. The new owner seized the opportunity to buy the property for a bargain. The old owner forwarded my monthly payments in the past 18 months (without my knowledge) to the new owner. And you're also right in assuming that the old and the new owner are "friends to share business like this".

So the remaining question is how can this knowledge put you in a better position to negotiate ;-)

[rickirs]

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Why in the world would you even think, without a lease, that the landlord has to inform you of anything

First: It's a question of good manners, isn't it?

Second: Talking open and fair could help to avoid a lot of problems and/or misunderstandings.

Third: Even without a written lease-contract, you have in fact a contract with certain mutual rights and obligations.

For instance: The Landlord can not just end that contract at his own will.

If he wants you to move out and you refuse, he needs to get a court order.

He might not want to do that in order to avoid an investigation into tax fraud.

I believe that's what happened in my case...

You need to move on and learn from your experiences. You are not in a defensible position

First: It's a question of good manners, isn't it? It just business.

Second: Talking open and fair could help to avoid a lot of problems and/or misunderstandings. The new owner isn't confused.

Third: Even without a written lease-contract, you have in fact a contract with certain mutual rights and obligations. Prove it.

For instance: The Landlord can not just end that contract at his own will. Prove it.

If he wants you to move out and you refuse, he needs to get a court order.Yes but you will pay court costs.

He might not want to do that in order to avoid an investigation into tax fraud. Not connected with rent collection, not an issue throwing you out, and what if there's no tax fraud.

[beachproperty]

If the sale was finalized 18 months ago, then which party had the responsibility to notify the OP? The old or new landlord?

Also, had the OP not been making payments to the old landlord/owner for these past 18 months? Why didn't the new owner speak up long ago asking for his rent money? Was the old owner forwarding these monthly payments to the new owner these past 18 months? Then one might wonder if the old and new owner are not family or friends to share business like this?

Thanks

Thank you very much for sharing your opinion. I think you analyzed the situation pretty well. It appears that the old owner was under pressure to sell her property due to huge debt in her family. The new owner seized the opportunity to buy the property for a bargain. The old owner forwarded my monthly payments in the past 18 months (without my knowledge) to the new owner. And you're also right in assuming that the old and the new owner are "friends to share business like this".

So the remaining question is how can this knowledge put you in a better position to negotiate ;-)

Op has absolutely no position to be able to negoitate. Previous owner did absolutely nothing wrong as it was not necessary to discuss his personal business as to selling the property.

Once sold ...new owner had no problem accepting the rent from the old owner paid by you and AGAIN ...none of your business....It was between them.

As noted earlier ....the ONLY contract you had with the previous owner was "oral".. This does not bind the new owner. Under western law (US), new owner under an oral month to month tenancy (which is what you have here) would only be required to give you 30 days notice ....(ie ...30 day notice of increase in rent, 30 day notice to vacate,,,,etc.) New owner here is being rather generous in allowing you until Dec. to decide what you want to do.....Vacate or Sign new lease.

Negoitate???? you are not in a strong position AT ALL to negoitate anything! You could possibly talk to the new owner (your new landlord) in a civil manner explaining that you think the rent increase is out of line (show him comparables), that you are a good tenant (as shown by your previous 8 years) etc....and ask him to only raise the rent a reasonable amount.

Otherwise ....MOVE

[PaulHamon]

you have no contract, the owner can do what they like.

[jacko45k]

Why in the world would you even think, without a lease, that the landlord has to inform you of anything

First: It's a question of good manners, isn't it?

Second: Talking open and fair could help to avoid a lot of problems and/or misunderstandings.

Third: Even without a written lease-contract, you have in fact a contract with certain mutual rights and obligations.

For instance: The Landlord can not just end that contract at his own will.

If he wants you to move out and you refuse, he needs to get a court order.

He might not want to do that in order to avoid an investigation into tax fraud.

I believe that's what happened in my case...

Good manners, while nice, do not often come into rental agreements, contracts rule.

Talking open and fair is an alien concept.

You have whatever is written in the contract, which you no longer have with the owner.

The contract can be terminated as per the conditions in the contract, or not renewed per its expiry.

He can easily get a court order and maybe disconnect the services if they are in his name.

Tax fraud, I doubt this enters into his thoughts.

Sounds like the new owner is being quite reasonable..... the old one has managed to keep taking rent despite selling the place.

[bangkoklawyer24]

You have an eight year contract, but not in written form. Under Thai laws a contract is enforceable for more than three years only if it is in written form and registered. So you have nothing in your hands now. Details at https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/article/20140925020252-11220814-black-magic-in-thailand

Edited October 10, 2014 by bangkoklawyer24

[maswov]

The new owner has owned the house for 18 months and is just now asking for rent?

The security deposit you gave the original owner should have transferred to the new owner so if you decide to stay, that amount should be deducted from what he wants now

[Dante99]

You say you don't have a contract and then ask if the new owner has to respect it. The answer is that there is not contract to respect. He's given yo a fair amount of time to sort things out, so you have the choice to stay or leave.

Fair enough and I am not complaining! Laymen often don't understand that there can be a contract between two parties even if its not written on a piece of paper. That is certainly true in my case. So I never said that I didn't have a contract - quite the contrary! I am just interested to know whether such a contract automatically ends at the moment of a legal transfer of ownership and if a landlord needs to inform the tenant of such change.

Do you have two or more unimpeachable witnesses to your "contract"? If it is just a talk between two people forget it.

[SDM0712]

I'm vaguely aware of a Law that gives a tenant the right to occupy if they have been living on land without a tenancy agreement for a lengthy period of time. But this would almost certainly only apply to Thais. In short, and speaking as a professional, you have no right to remain and your former Landlord had no obligation to tell you about the sale. The new landlord has no obligation to keep you and if they do this will be a new arrangement completely separate to the last. My advice..... Either do a deal you are happy with on the current house or move. In either case get a contract. There's no Housing Act or ASTs in Thailand!

Edited October 10, 2014 by SDM0712