confusing /conflicting advice from visa lawyer in uk

[Richard W]

It seems that we need a court decision to declare that permanent residence permits have at least the same foprce as residence permits. Petition 0680/2013 asks for Directive 2004/038 to be amended so that permanent residence permits (as defined by Article 20) may be substituted for visas under Article 5(2) just as residence permits (as defined by Article 10) may. The Commission responded that the directive can already be interpreted that way, and the Schengen area does so interpret, and therefore no action is required!

[Jay Sata]

Can I also point out that it is not airline staff but Thai handling agents who process passengers for the return leg. I have never heard of someone being allowed to fly the outbound leg but denied the return.

That nearly happened to my wife once on LHR<->BKK when travelling with Royal Jordanian Airlines, though I don't remember the affiliation of the staff at check-in. At check-in they initially denied her boarding to return to England because her passport had a remaining validity of less than 6 months.

Also, when my wife checked in to fly from London Heathrow to Bangkok on Sunday, she only presented a pristine passport and stated that she resided in Britain. If she presented only that passport on return, I would be deeply impressed if she were properly allowed to board for the return flight. Until check-in, I believe the British government knew nothing of that passport.

I assume the pristine passport is a Thai one Richard? OK for departure to Thailand but no good for return.

She no doubt carries the old one with her rights to UK residence inside.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

Dirtycash, before the above two posters take this even further off topic; allow me to sum up.

If your wife has a UK residence and if her UK residence permit says she is the family member of an EEA national, this should, under the directive, be enough for her to enter any other EEA state; including the RoI.

Even if her RP does not say this, if she is travelling with or to join you and can show the relationship and that she is so doing, then this should be enough as well.

But;

• The EEA freedom of movement regulations do not apply if the non EEA family member is entering the state of which the EEA national is a citizen. So if you are Irish she cannot use them to enter the RoI; unless Surinder Singh applies, which I am not sure about here as she is just transiting through the Republic. Even if you are a dual Irish/British national and used your Irish nationality to obtain UK residence for her using the EEA rules, it is is no longer possible for her to now use your British nationality to enter the Republic due to recent rule changes.
• As said, even if Irish Immigration would allow her into the Republic without a visa, her major hurdle could be persuading the airline when boarding in Bangkok that they will do so.
• Ignore irrelevancies about the lack of immigration control between the North and the Republic. Despite that fact that anyone who requires a visa who enters the Republic from the North, or vice versa, without that visa has done so illegally, your wife's problems are extremely unlikely to occur on her journey from Belfast to Dublin, Dublin to Bangkok or Dublin to Belfast. Any potential problems will occur on the Bangkok to Dublin leg.

So my advice remains the same; she should obtain an Irish visa to be sure. But it is up to you and her.

[Richard W]

I assume the pristine passport is a Thai one Richard? OK for departure to Thailand but no good for return.

She no doubt carries the old one with her rights to UK residence inside.

You're basically correct on both counts. (Nit pick: 'inadequate', not 'no good' - the current passport's required!)

This thread is about travelling on a Thai passport, so appropriate challenges to your claim that the ability to return is confirmed at (or by the time of) the check-in for the outbound trip.

[Jay Sata]

I have just had this clarification from INIS

Thank you for your enquiry.

I am directed by the Minister for Justice and Equality to refer to your

correspondence of 14/10/2014.

As her permission to remain in the UK is on the basis of you exercising

your EU Treaty Rights, she does not require a visa for short stay trips (90

days or less) to the Republic of Ireland.

Kind regards,

Visa Customer Services

Visa Office, Dublin

Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service

Their email address is [email protected]>

Edited October 14, 2014 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

Yes, we know that.

But, did you say in your enquiry that her spouse may be an Irish or dual Irish/British citizen? (I say 'may' as the OP hasn't said what his nationality is.)

Did you ask if having Irish nationality, on it's own or in a dual nationality situation, would effect this? The directive itself says that it could.

Are you, or anyone else, 100% sure that check in staff at Bangkok, which as has been repeatedly said is where any potential problems will occur, know the rules and will recognise her UK RP allows entry into the Republic?

Edited October 14, 2014 by 7by7

[Richard W]

Thank you for your enquiry.

What, however, was the query? Did you make it clear that a permanent residence card was held? It's possible that evidence of family membership may also be needed - not every non-EEA citizen holder with a UK permanent residence card is necessarily a family member of a UK citizen.

I take it no-one's got any information out of Etihad as to what they need for boarding.

It's a shame the Irish visa waiver scheme only applies to holders of visitors' visas.

[7by7]

From what the OP says, I think it is safe to say that his wife holds a residence permit issued under the EEA regulations as the family member of an EEA citizen. In which case it will say so on the card.

It is UK visas, LTR stamps and residence permits issued under the UK immigration rules which omit this vital information!

We don't know which airline she will be using; but obtaining confirmation from them that she will be allowed to board a Bangkok-Dublin flight without an Irish visa, just her UK RP, is certainly a viable alternative to obtaining an Irish visa.

Edited October 14, 2014 by 7by7

[Richard W]

Are you, or anyone else, 100% sure that check in staff at Bangkok, which as has been repeatedly said is where any potential problems will occur, know the rules and will recognise her UK RP allows entry into the Republic?

Note that Mrs Dirtycash's possible problem is that she has a permanent residence card, and not a residence card. A UK 'residence permit' has little to nothing to do with EEA freedom of movement rules.

A possible, crazy-seeming long-term solution is for Mrs Dirtycash to have a residence card (£55 every 5 years) as well as a permanent residence card. The residence card should serve as a visa for Ireland, Cyprus, Croatia, Bulgaria and Romania. (I overlooked the last four non-Schengen EU states earlier.)

[Richard W]

She is my wife. She is underr eea. She has got permanent residence stamp which is valid untill 2023. She is residing in belfast/uk.

From what the OP says, I think it is safe to say that his wife holds a residence permit issued under the EEA regulations as the family member of an EEA citizen. In which case it will say so on the card.

Directive 2004/38/EC Article 11(1) reads, "The residence card provided for by Article 10(1) shall be valid for five years from the date of issue or for the envisaged period of residence of the Union citizen, if this period is less than five years".

From the expiry date (2023), Mrs Dirtycash either holds a permanent residence card (in which case it will have those words on it) or a biometric residence permit (BRP). As Dirtycash calls it a stamp, I very much doubt it is a BRP, which is a plastic card. (This is as bad as the ins and outs of cricket!) I believe Mrs Dirtycash has a sticker.

It is UK visas, LTR stamps and residence permits issued under the UK immigration rules which omit this vital information!

Can you find any evidence of a UK-issued permanent residence card saying 'family member'?

[Jay Sata]

Yes, we know that.

But, did you say in your enquiry that her spouse may be an Irish or dual Irish/British citizen? (I say 'may' as the OP hasn't said what his nationality is.)

Did you ask if having Irish nationality, on it's own or in a dual nationality situation, would effect this? The directive itself says that it could.

Are you, or anyone else, 100% sure that check in staff at Bangkok, which as has been repeatedly said is where any potential problems will occur, know the rules and will recognise her UK RP allows entry into the Republic?

Irish and dual Irish/ British are the same. I should know as I hold both.

INIS are extremely customer friendly as demonstrated by the fact I asked a question and had a reply from some one in the unit within an hour.

I have posted the email address so just ask what ever question you want. A letter to them will come back on headed paper and should convince most airline staff.

As for Bangkok it is down to who ever supervises check in. Household bills and other documentation cost little to carry but are valuable back up to prove you have the right to return.

I would like to point out that arriving in Dublin after a long haul flight is a piece of cake compared to the Heathrow Zoo.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Richard W]

I ofcourse meant "Residence Card" (issued under Directove 2004/38/EC, article 10). But atleast it seems likely that the OP was trying to indicate that this woman has such a card. Seems rather silly though -but I've read about it here before- that the UK does not state the "family member ofa Union citizen" on the card when you change your temporary one (which bears such text) for a permanent (indefinite?) one... Error, oversight, some evil master plan of UK authorities?

Sweden does a nicely wordy permanent residence card of a family member of a Union citizen. It might work in Ireland, but it is rejected by the UK as insecure. I suspect that it never occurred to the UK that such cards should be accepted as alternatives to visas for any purpose but re-entry to the host state.

[Jay Sata]

Sadly the whole EU thing is a can of worms.

The UK,Gemany and a few other countries stick to the rules while others such as France and Spain just do what they want to do.

Then of course we have the grey areas such as the Channel Islands etc.

In the case of Ireland or Dublin airport the Garda (Irish Police) are in charge of immigration control and are much more at the coal face than the UK. I cannot imagine a situation where logic and common sense did not allow the someone with an EU residence card to exit the airport.

They are much more customer friendly as are INIS.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Donutz]

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From what the OP says, I think it is safe to say that his wife holds a residence permit issued under the EEA regulations as the family member of an EEA citizen. In which case it will say so on the card.

It is UK visas, LTR stamps and residence permits issued under the UK immigration rules which omit this vital information!

We don't know which airline she will be using; but obtaining confirmation from them that she will be allowed to board a Bangkok-Dublin flight without an Irish visa, just her UK RP, is certainly a viable alternative to obtaining an Irish visa.

Indeed, that is what I've been saying in my previous posts.

(Though it's called a Ressidence Card, not RP).

I ofcourse meant "Residence Card" (issued under Directove 2004/38/EC, article 10). But atleast it seems likely that the OP was trying to indicate that this woman has such a card. Seems rather silly though -but I've read about it here before- that the UK does not state the "family member ofa Union citizen" on the card when you change your temporary one (which bears such text) for a permanent (indefinite?) one... Error, oversight, some evil master plan of UK authorities? alt=tongue.png>

Sweden does a nicely wordy permanent residence card of a family member of a Union citizen. It might work in Ireland, but it is rejected by the UK as insecure. I suspect that it never occurred to the UK that such cards should be accepted as alternatives to visas for any purpose but re-entry to the host state.

The UK is just being silly, only accepting Ressidence Cards issued under 2004/38 from Germanu and Estonia. Violating the direction. The reason being indeed security/fraud with the cards. Even though Dutch Residence Cards and Permits look exactly like the German counterpart, have a chip etc.

A Dutch Rersidence Card for non EU nationals looks like this and can be replaced every 5 years for free:

http://217.170.41.102/E/index.htm

Last I heard the text "Gemeenschapsonderdaan" which in English would translate to "Union resident" now bears the text "Familie van een Burger van de EU/EEA" (familymember of a citizen of the EU/EEA") which would leave little reason for UK authorities not to accept it unless they intentionallu want to act like bastards.

A solution would be EU wide agreements on the layout of ID's, even though for Residenc Cards and Permits there was never meant to be a standard (mandatory) layout/design. It would make things much easier though at the border.

But we are getting OT.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Donutz

[Jay Sata]

We are not getting over the top Donutz because unless someone take this up with their MP or MEP the problems will not be resolved.

[Richard W]

The UK is just being silly, only accepting Ressidence Cards issued under 2004/38 from Germanu and Estonia. Violating the direction. The reason being indeed security/fraud with the cards.

<snip>

Even though Dutch Residence Cards and Permits look exactly like the German counterpart, have a chip etc.

A Dutch Rersidence Card for non EU nationals looks like this and can be replaced every 5 years for free:

http://217.170.41.102/E/index.htm

I can't see any English text on them, which could lead to them still being rejected. Note that passports have to be in English or French.

[Jay Sata]

We don't know which airline she will be using; but obtaining confirmation from them that she will be allowed to board a Bangkok-Dublin flight without an Irish visa, just her UK RP, is certainly a viable alternative to obtaining an Irish visa.

We don't know but from experience I can tell you the only cheap flight from Dublin to Thailand at the moment is Etihad. KLM is the nearest at £300 more.

(Correction you can route Dublin Istanbul BKK for £411 via Turkish Airways who are taking a hit because of Syria.)

I have now ,you must agree ,established there is no problem with the Garda allowing her to board or return via Dublin.

I appreciate you have a good take on UK immigration legislation but Eire is a different kettle of fish.

You appear to have no experience of traveling via Dublin to Northern Ireland hence your idea of a transit inside the airport to Belfast which is a two hour drive away with no flights. I suspect you have never even been to Eire.

INIS ,the Irish immigration service ,cannot issue a visa where one is not required.

However you are insisting they should get an Irish visa

Despite some aggression on this topic I wish once and for all to put this to bed.

Frances Fitzgerald is the Minister in charge of Ireland's border control and I am happy,as an Irish citizen, to ask him any questions regarding issues we may have with Thai partners transiting via Dublin to

the Six Counties.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

Jay Sata, once again you have totally missed the point.

The question is not whether her UK issued EEA residence card/permit/stamp/whatever one wishes to call it allows her entry into the Republic.

It does, and we all know it does. We all said it does long before you joined this topic.

Your email has only confirmed that and your name dropping wont change anything.

As you have dodged the questions from RichardW and myself, I can only assume that your email did not mention the OP's nationality. His nationality is important; for the reasons explained at length previously.

My not knowing there are no direct flights between Belfast and Dublin does not change that.

However, as said previously, any potential difficulties she may have will occur at Bangkok when trying to board her flight to Dublin.

The INIS and the pleasantness of Dublin airport when compared to the far busier Heathrow are irrelevant to that.

[7by7]

<snip>

Can you find any evidence of a UK-issued permanent residence card saying 'family member'?

I know this is a five year one; I did put "UK permanent EEA residence card" into Google images and did find ones, which also say "Family member of an EEA national."

But for some reason the forum software would not upload the image.

Edited October 15, 2014 by 7by7

[Richard W]

<snip>

Can you find any evidence of a UK-issued permanent residence card saying 'family member'?

<image removed>

I know this is a five year one; I did put "UK permanent EEA residence card" into Google images and did find ones, which also say "Family member of an EEA national."

But for some reason the forum software would not upload the image.

When I repeated this search, I found no such examples. I found ones saying "permanent residence card" and just that, and ones saying "residence card of a family member of an EEA national", but no UK examples containing both the phrases "permanent residence card" and "family member". What pages did you find images of such cards on?

[7by7]

As I said, I put "UK EEA permanent residence card" into Google images and found examples.

[Jay Sata]

As I said, I put "UK EEA permanent residence card" into Google images and found examples.

We can all use google but you appear to be a forum expert so why resort to that trick?

I took time to contact INIS and got a reply.

It clearly stated that there was no need for a visa.

You appear to be giving advice on Ireland immigration issues without any direct knowledge of the country apart from search engines.

If someone cares to take the time to frame a question to clear this issue up once and for all I will put it to the TD and minister.

[Richard W]

I suggest, "Does a Thai citizen holding a valid permanent residence card issued by the United Kingdom and travelling on her own need a visa to enter Ireland for a few hours? Does it make any difference if her husband is an Irish citizen or that she is entering Ireland to cross by land to Belfast to join her EU citizen husband there."

Perhaps one should add that the UK permanent residence card does not bear the words "family member".

I'd like to substitute 'visa national' (or whatever the Irish term is) for 'Thai citizen', but it's just possible that Thais have a privileged status, though I can't find anything in the Irish visa waiver programme to encourage tourism by British families including Thais.

Another complication is that I've come across a report that visa national Irish residents may transit through the UK by land and sea to Ireland at an immigration officer's discretion. It's possible that Thais may benefit by policy from similar discretion by an Irish immigration officer. In both cases it's surprising that airlines would accept the risk of the visa national being stopped and the airline being fined.

[dirtycash]

So. The airline would more than likely refuse her ? So as not to take risk of being fined ?

[7by7]

As I said, I put "UK EEA permanent residence card" into Google images and found examples.

We can all use google but you appear to be a forum expert so why resort to that trick?

I took time to contact INIS and got a reply.

It clearly stated that there was no need for a visa.

You appear to be giving advice on Ireland immigration issues without any direct knowledge of the country apart from search engines.

If someone cares to take the time to frame a question to clear this issue up once and for all I will put it to the TD and minister.

What are you on about?

As is clear from the posts in question, I was not looking for evidence or information via Google about any Irish immigration matter; let alone the subject of this topic!

I have no need to; I have a working knowledge of the EEA regulations and can refer to the directive if and when I need to. As I, and others, did to answer the OP's question long before you arrived in this topic.

RichardW asked for evidence of what is on a UK issued permanent residence card, what better evidence than a picture of one?

Not having one myself, where better to find one than via Google?

Many posters know that you have a problem with me, and with certain other members, because we have proven you totally wrong on UK immigration matters and the EEA regulations so often in the past.

If you have useful information to post; great. But will you please stop hijacking topics with your petulant rants and self aggrandising ego boosts; they do nothing to help members.

[7by7]

So. The airline would more than likely refuse her ? So as not to take risk of being fined ?

I don't know if I would go as far as to say 'more than likely' but it is certainly a possibility.

Under international regulations, all airlines are subject to a large fine ($20,000 per passenger, if memory serves) and the costs of returning the passenger to their departure point if they knowingly carry a passenger who does not have the proper entry clearance for their destination and so is refused entry at that destination.

Hence their reluctance to carry passengers if they are unsure.

Which is why I, and others, advise she either obtains an Irish visa or some other evidence that she will be allowed into the Republic on her return from Thailand.

BTW, what is your nationality; as said, it could be important.

[dirtycash]

My nationality is dual british/irish. I will accompany wife thai national.

[dirtycash]

I am working away from home atm but i will send a picture of wifes residence document asap

[7by7]

My nationality is dual british/irish. I will accompany wife thai national.

As said earlier; this may present a problem.

Although you no doubt used your Irish nationality to obtain UK residence for your wife under the EEA regulations, and could have used for British nationality to do the same in the Republic; changes to the regulations since means this is no longer possible.

As I understand them; these changes basically mean that as you hold Irish nationality, then your wife has to enter the Republic under the Irish immigration rules, not the EEA regulations; even though you also hold British nationality.

However, as her residence permit will say, if anything, that she is the family member of an EEA national, not an Irish one, it is unlikely that she would be challenged on this by Irish immigration.

Unlikely, but possible; especially as you will be travelling with her. Present your Irish passport, they will know you are Irish; present your British one and they may ask how she managed to obtain UK residence in the UK when she is the wife of a British national.

However, my feeling is still that her main area of concern will be boarding her return flight from Bangkok without an Irish visa of some kind.

BTW, if you do post a copy of her residence permit; remember this is a public forum which is accessible by all; including the nutjobs who lurk in cyberspace.

So remove or obscure her name, photo and any other features which could identify her.

Edited October 16, 2014 by 7by7

[Richard W]

So. The airline would more than likely refuse her ? So as not to take risk of being fined ?

That is the worry. We don't know how high the risk is. In the shape of your wife's friend, you hold the forum's practical experience! I think Jay Sata's advice to contact INIS yourself is sound. Get yourselves a letter confirming your wife can travel back via Dublin from INIS, and tell your wife to show it at check-in in Bangkok if there is any problem and demand that they check it with the Irish authorities if they don't believe it. Include her child in the letter-provoking query if travelling on a permanent residence card plus non-EEA passport rather than an EEA passport.

It is entirely possible that your wife's friend got through because her 10-year permanent residence card was mistaken for a 5-year residence card. Irish law (by statutory instrument, not statute) accepts a foreign 5-year residence card (issued in response to 2004/38/EC) for a family member in lieu of a visa; it only accepts a 10-year permanent residence card (issued in response to 2004/38/EC) if it is issued by Ireland. It is easy to misread the statutory instrument Immigration Act 2004 (Visas) Order 2012 as allowing the use of a foreign permanent residence card. Immigration officers probably have authority to let people in even if they lack the required documents.

Just conceivably your wife's friend got through because she also had an old 5-year residence card showing her as a family member - the statutory instrument doesn't say the residence card has to be valid, though that's a pretty weak argument.

Another possibility is that your wife's friend got through because she was accompanied by her husband. Did he accompany her? Did he collect her from Dublin airport?

Yet another possibility, which I have already hesitantly mentioned in another post, is that she got through because of an interpretation of Section 3(d) of the same statutory instrument, which reads, with my emboldening,

until 31 October 2016, United Kingdom visitors who are nationals of a state or territorial entity specified in Schedule 2 and where the intended purpose of the travel to the State by the United Kingdom visitor concerned is solely for a visit of the shorter of the following periods

(i) 90 days or less, or

(ii) the remaining period of validity of that persons leave to enter the United Kingdom, or, as the case may be, leave to remain in the United Kingdom;

The Immigration Act 2004 (Visas) Order 2013 added Thailand to Schedule 2. Unlike indefinite leave to remain, UK permanent residence cards allow one to simply visit the UK without compromising one's status.

Have you tried using the Titamic database yourself? I have, on the assumption that your wife holds a biometric passport.

If I enter the residency document, from the pick-list, as 'Permanent Resident/Resident Alien Card' I now get:

• Visa required.
• The following should be taken into account even if holding a Visa:
• Visitors are required to hold proof of sufficient funds to cover their stay.
• Certain Visa regulations apply as follows:

  Visitors not holding return/onward tickets could be refused entry.

The latter point is seriously disconcerting, one hopes the immigration officer would not insist on it. The information above is entirely appropriate for someone holding indefinite leave to remain in the UK.

If I enter the residency document, from the pick-list, as 'Residence permit', I get:

• Visa Exemptions
• Holders of "Family Member" Residence Permits issued by United Kingdom to a family member of an EEA national or national of Switzerland.
• Visitors are required to hold proof of sufficient funds to cover their stay.
• Certain Visa regulations apply as follows:

  Visitors not holding return/onward tickets could be refused entry.

Your wife holds a 'family member' permanent residence card, which is a 'residence permit' in Schengen-speak. That she and the child are family members would probably have to be demonstrated by marriage and birth certificates and evidence of your nationality, though an old residence card saying 'residence card of a family member...' might do the job. Edited October 16, 2014 by Richard W