Sex Tourism

[Lacoste]

kerryd - your arguments are ridiculous.

Seconded, absolute drivel.

[wilko]

If I were to ask my U.K. friends round to dinner, I would have to have 2 meals... one in the evening for my middle class cronies and an earlier one at 12.30 pm for the "bootless & unhorsed"!

[Thaipwriter]

It won’t be long before NGOs start sending agents around to document the falang

bar owner collecting “barfines” with the intent to hand any evidence over to the

prosecutors back home.

The barfine FBI, you really are a funny guy!

[JRingo]

It won’t be long before NGOs start sending agents around to document the falang

bar owner collecting “barfines” with the intent to hand any evidence over to the

prosecutors back home.

The barfine FBI, you really are a funny guy!

.......................................................................... No, the Pimp Police

[meom]

if you want to dabble then you should pay the girl direct so she gets all the cash. give her the money you would have paid for the pimp's fee.

There's plenty of freelance girls around whom you pay direct without bar fine involved.

Advantage of the bar fine is that you can always go back to the bar and complain in case there's problems with the girl. There's no such quality control with free lance girls.

[wilko]

It won’t be long before NGOs start sending agents around to document the falang

bar owner collecting “barfines” with the intent to hand any evidence over to the

prosecutors back home.

The barfine FBI, you really are a funny guy!

wouldn't that be the B-F.I ?

[PeaceBlondie]

I think I've read the entire discussion now, which is about bargirls and farang managers. As a gay man, I'm trying to relate the discussion to barboys and farang managers. I can only think of one gogo bar that's been farang mismanaged, and they let the mamasan (an older khateoy) make most of the mistakes. There's a real cabaret in another city, owned by a farang but managed by his Thai wife, but it's more of a cabaret with male and khatoey dancers; the offing of the staff is separate, virtually secret, and it's managed well by the wife, not the farang owner/husband. He does, however, check the ID for age 18 before employing any staff.

Yes, there are some underage hill tribe boys in some of these bars, and underage freelancers in certain known places, and that's a tragedy that is inexcusable and criminal. But above the age of 18, there are gay men (and straight gogo boys who take male customers as their jobs) who work like this, as adults. I seriously doubt that their families see them quite like the unfortunate 'commodity' or slave that some Thai poor families supposedly see their girls as. I don't think the boys in gogo bars have the same family relationship, although some of them do send money home, and in some cases the family knows full well how the boy earns the money. While I doubt the boys make as much money as the girl prostitutes (I'm using boy/girl terms here for young adults), I suspect the guys earn a good deal more than if they were restaurant waiters or dishwashers or room cleaners.

Are there Thai men who take these barboys off for sex, for money? I have hardly ever heard or seen of such, but it's possible. However, it's amazing how many gay Thai men try to succeed with romantic true Victorian love in finding another Thai gay man who's compatible. Some gay Thais end up living with older farang, but it's not common.

Morality? Immoral? As a pacifist, I do question the overall morality of any people of who think it's sinful to rent another adult human being to have sex, but they think it's divinely righteous to kill little girls and little boys who aren't combatants, so long as their secular leader says "Go kill those enemies." The right wing capitalists might feel that dilemna more sharply than the left wingers, if the capitalists are as moral as they pretend to be.

That's my two satang, although I never heard of a barfine of two baht.

[JimsKnight]

If its a bar that attracts customers because of the girls that work there AND they pay the girls a monthly salary then the barfine is there to compensate the bar if a customer wants to take the girl away from the bar, otherwise what is the bar paying her salary for?

Paying a barfine does'nt guarantee anything from the girl either! only the fact that she is free to leave work.

Yeah but a lot of bars don't even pay salarys to the girls (as some bars make <deleted> all dosh to pay them)! They just let them work freelance and try and blag bar fines from the johns.

The bar fine isn't my big beef though its those stupid lady drinks! Excuse me but why is a drink that is the same as mine so special its an extra 30%+ ???

[meemiathai]

I read only the first 2 posts and was wondering if the forum's policies have changed?

If so, I would like to add in some of my thoughts.

[meemiathai]

Anyway I cant see this thread lasting long

Then why did you bother to start it... ?

totster

As such a senior member, I did not expect you to misunderstand this, totster.

This was from Thaipauly, I suppose.

[PeaceBlondie]

meemiathai, there have been enough moderators commenting already, and we've discussed it some among ourselves, that we're letting this one go because it is designed primarily as a civil, non-bashing discussion about how farang managers are involved in the business. Why not look through the last two pages and try to fit your remarks into the flow?

Thanks for asking; there's no real change to the general prohibition about discussing bargirls, but this is more about the overall business.

[mittheimp]

Could it be, that when push comes to shove, most farangs dont like to see other farangs doing well or making money here in LOS.

Could this be the basis of the OP's complaints?

After all, he has not said anything about The Thai eqivalent of the "farang pimp"

Or could it be that as this is a forum read primarily by expats - some of them possibly involved in the bar scene, that to concentrate on 'farang pimps' is a just a little bit more relevant!!!!!

[tourleadersi]

The Pimp Police prepare for another night of undercover work.....

Edited July 23, 2006 by tourleadersi

[Charma]

I think that the question that the OP poses could be answered without making any subjective judgements on whether running a bar with girls is a good/bad thing, whether prostitution is good/bad etc etc.

Back in post 52 I posted a definition of a Pimp:

"a man who controls prostitutes, especially by finding customers for them, and takes some of the money that they earn".

Taking this definition, the first element to consider would be the word "control". How much "control" over the women does the bar owner have? Does he dictate the hours they work and who they must "engage" with?

The next element would be to consider whether the bar owner "finds" customers for the girls. This may relate to how much the girls services are promoted by the bar; are they an integral part of the business or incidental to it?

Lastly, does the bar owner take some of the money they earn. Here you could consider whether money taken via bar fines and drinks is the same as money taken following an agreement to provide sexual services. Does separating them is that way make a difference?

Ultimately, you may form a view that a bar owner is not a pimp in the truest sense of the definition. However , if the girls he employs do offer sexual services and the bar receives a benefit of some kind as a result, the bar owner is involved in the sex trade, regardless of whether you believe this to be a "good" or "bad" thing.

[davethailand]

If its a bar that attracts customers because of the girls that work there AND they pay the girls a monthly salary then the barfine is there to compensate the bar if a customer wants to take the girl away from the bar, otherwise what is the bar paying her salary for?

Paying a barfine does'nt guarantee anything from the girl either! only the fact that she is free to leave work.

Yeah but a lot of bars don't even pay salarys to the girls (as some bars make <deleted> all dosh to pay them)! They just let them work freelance and try and blag bar fines from the johns.

The bar fine isn't my big beef though its those stupid lady drinks! Excuse me but why is a drink that is the same as mine so special its an extra 30%+ ???

Because between 30 and 50% of the drink price goes to the girl.

[King Dong]

but, now my wife says it's bedtime in CM

Your wife of your mother?

[kerryk]

So you don't mind paying for the girls services you just resent paying the barfine?

i will never pay a pimp to go with a girl.

and kerryd - your arguments are ridiculous. would a bar be unable to operate without bar fines? no.

you make it sound like the girls working in bars are there regaling the customers with fantastic stories or doing musical turns to spellbind the customers into staying. the reality is they are there waiting for someone to take them home so they can earn some money. you are a pimp, simple.

Two of the most successful bars in Bangkok, Gulliver’s and The Beer Garden have hundreds of women and don’t charge bar fines.

[davethailand]

So you don't mind paying for the girls services you just resent paying the barfine?

i will never pay a pimp to go with a girl.

and kerryd - your arguments are ridiculous. would a bar be unable to operate without bar fines? no.

you make it sound like the girls working in bars are there regaling the customers with fantastic stories or doing musical turns to spellbind the customers into staying. the reality is they are there waiting for someone to take them home so they can earn some money. you are a pimp, simple.

Two of the most successful bars in Bangkok, Gulliver’s and The Beer Garden have hundreds of women and don’t charge bar fines.

Yeh because they are freelancers.

[kerryk]

Don't bar-girls get a part of the bar-fine themselves?

I've had sex for money....so what does that make me....?

Mr Ringo (&co.) have you ever paid for sex? Is that a crime where you come from? Can you be prosecuted for it back home?

Yes bar girls get a percent of the bar fines and the drinks sold and a salary. There are many bar girls averaging wages substantially more than doctors or lawyers in Thailand. There are many bar girls who own more than one home and more than one auto. Far from being exploited there are many bar girls who go on to buy bars or other businesses and prosper.

[kerryk]

So you don't mind paying for the girls services you just resent paying the barfine?

i will never pay a pimp to go with a girl.

and kerryd - your arguments are ridiculous. would a bar be unable to operate without bar fines? no.

you make it sound like the girls working in bars are there regaling the customers with fantastic stories or doing musical turns to spellbind the customers into staying. the reality is they are there waiting for someone to take them home so they can earn some money. you are a pimp, simple.

Two of the most successful bars in Bangkok, Gulliver’s and The Beer Garden have hundreds of women and don’t charge bar fines.

Yeh because they are freelancers.

Of course they are freelancers. The response was to the statement “ would a bar be unable to operate without bar fines? No.” And that is false. Of course a bar would be able to operate with literally hundreds of women being in the bar without any bar fines being paid and there are numerous examples of this.

[Lacoste]

There are many bar girls who own more than one home and more than one auto. Far from being exploited there are many bar girls who go on to buy bars or other businesses and prosper.

There are also many who get married to gullible farangs and have these things bought for them.

There is at least one poster on this thread who did just that but still believes the bar is his

[davethailand]

So you don't mind paying for the girls services you just resent paying the barfine?

i will never pay a pimp to go with a girl.

and kerryd - your arguments are ridiculous. would a bar be unable to operate without bar fines? no.

you make it sound like the girls working in bars are there regaling the customers with fantastic stories or doing musical turns to spellbind the customers into staying. the reality is they are there waiting for someone to take them home so they can earn some money. you are a pimp, simple.

Two of the most successful bars in Bangkok, Gulliver’s and The Beer Garden have hundreds of women and don’t charge bar fines.

Yeh because they are freelancers.

Of course they are freelancers. The response was to the statement “ would a bar be unable to operate without bar fines? No.” And that is false. Of course a bar would be able to operate with literally hundreds of women being in the bar without any bar fines being paid and there are numerous examples of this.

But freelancers also won't get the same perks as employed girls who of course have to pay barfine.

[kerryk]

Then it is perfectly clear that the girls are not in the bars to "work" in the bars but to draw in customers who are looking for someone to have sex with.

They are prostitutes, the bar owner helps hook them up with customers and charges for his service, that makes him a pimp.

Oh my, you'd better sit down for this one. It's going to shock you.

NOT EVERY WOMAN IN THAILAND IS A PROSTITUTE !

In fact, I know quite a few women that are working in beer and go-go bars, that DON'T HAVE SEX FOR MONEY !!

(I know one a-go-go in fact, where 6 of their best looking dancers don't do short/long time sex-for-money).

And, for example, I don't think the staff at the Blues Factory would appreciate being considered hookers. But according to you, they work in a bar, therefore they are prostitutes !

I'm going to call davethailand "Pimp Daddy" the next time I see him, from a safe distance of course

So lets see, if I pay a girl's bar fine, and we go to dinner and a movie, does that make her a hooker ? Does that make the bar owner a pimp ? Hmmm, mamasan Lee won't be happy with me calling her a pimp. Jo will be even angrier at being labelled a hooker. Guess I'd better stop seeing her then. I wouldn't want to be accused of being immoral.

As far as I know, not one girl I have ever spoken to/been with, has ever given the owner/manager of what ever club she was in, a cut of the money she has made for having sex.

(yes, I do actually talk to the girls, even ones I have no intention of doing anything with. Most of them are quite open and honest)

If a bar is compensated for losing an employee's services for a period of time, but gets no money if that employee gets paid for having sex later on, how is the bar a pimp ? Remembering that the bar-fine only allows the girl to leave work without penalty and in no way commits the girl to having sex.

So Keeryd, you say the world is on the brink of a major war so I suppose that makes it okay somehow to condone immorality?

First you were upset about barfines. Now it's about morality ? Or is it that you only find barfines immoral ? But taking a girl away from work in the middle of her shift without compensation to her employer is quite OK ? Especially as you know that girl expects to get paid for sex.

So is that it ? You don't mind prostitution, but you don't like having to pay to get her out of the bar, and then still have to pay her on top of that ?

And yes, I do think there are bigger issues at hand than the morality of a situation that has existed for decades and isn't going to go away because you aren't happy about it.

and for leftcross:

Shock and Surprise for you too ! Many guys wait until after closing to pick up their sweeties. Happens all the time. Some guys are just too cheap to pay the fine. Others like leaving their tee-raks at work, while they check out other bars and clubs. Some have steady girlfriends and can't afford to be paying their barfine every night, so they wait until closing to pick them up.

More surprises ! I haven't heard of a single bar owner that forces his staff to work. And when you think about it, without these bar owners, there'd be oh, about 50,000 poor and vulnerable people out of work, just here in Pattaya !

Hey, that's a great solution ! Shut down the bars and let the "poorest and most vulnerable members of thai society" try to find other jobs ! Wow. That'll solve all the problems of barfines !

Of course, you could just not get involved. By that I mean, stop picking up women in bars. Then you won't be bothered by bar fines. Stick to picking them up at Family Marts, Gas Stations, Fast Food shops, clothing stores and other places that don't expect you to compensate them for walking away with their employees during their shift !

Happy Hunting !

KerryD although I agree with a lot of what you say some of the points contrary to my experience. 1. Feature dancers are available at anywhere I have been but for a larger amount of money and one cannot take them out until a later hour. 2. Bar owners fine employees for not working. A day off costs an average of 300 Baht. 3. A bar fine as experienced 99% of the time is a cut of the money for sex. 4. Many bars will fine the employee if she picks up a date after closing time to avoid paying the barfine. 5. There is a fee normally 10,000 baht to buy a lady out of a bar permanently that is shared with the owner and the employee.

[davethailand]

3. A bar fine as experienced 99% of the time is a cut of the money for sex.

In most bars the bar fine is to take the girl away from the bar, Whats paid after is up to the guy and girl.

[kerryk]

So you don't mind paying for the girls services you just resent paying the barfine?

i will never pay a pimp to go with a girl.

and kerryd - your arguments are ridiculous. would a bar be unable to operate without bar fines? no.

you make it sound like the girls working in bars are there regaling the customers with fantastic stories or doing musical turns to spellbind the customers into staying. the reality is they are there waiting for someone to take them home so they can earn some money. you are a pimp, simple.

Two of the most successful bars in Bangkok, Gulliver’s and The Beer Garden have hundreds of women and don’t charge bar fines.

Yeh because they are freelancers.

Of course they are freelancers. The response was to the statement “ would a bar be unable to operate without bar fines? No.” And that is false. Of course a bar would be able to operate with literally hundreds of women being in the bar without any bar fines being paid and there are numerous examples of this.

But freelancers also won't get the same perks as employed girls who of course have to pay barfine.

Dave you are missing my point. The poster said bars would not be profitable without bar fines. That is not true. There are many bars and discos that are eminently successful without charging any bar fines.

The disco in the Nana hotel makes a small fortune and employees no ladies for hire. As do many other places in Thailand. Spicy in Chiang Mai is a freelancer paradise as is Bubble. They both do not employ and pay for play personnel but they make a ton of money.

My point is ,to beat a dead horse, bar fines are not necessary for a bar to make money.

[Kerryd]

kerryd - your arguments are ridiculous.

Seconded, absolute drivel.

Really ? And that is the best counter-argument you can come up with ? What's the matter, having trouble finding moral high-ground to preach from ? It's OK to use the services of prostitutes, but it's immoral for a bar to charge a fee for you to take the girl away from work ?

Talk about drivel.

i will never pay a pimp to go with a girl.

I knew it !!! Typical HYPOCRITE !!

You'll engage in the "immoral" act of prostitution, but object to having to pay a fee to get the girl out of the bar.

Some Countries now have laws to prosecute their citizens for going abroad to commit sex crimes.

OZ, USA, Britain, etc...

By the way, in many of the countries you mentioned where it is illegal to pimp, it is also illegal to avail yourself of the services of a prostitute. In fact, the trend seems to be to go after the johns instead of the girls.

Guess you'd better keep a low profile, least the morality police spot you on their radar.

and kerryd - your arguments are ridiculous. would a bar be unable to operate without bar fines? no.

Who is being ridiculous ?

A bar would be unable to operate without barfines ?

In most places the barfines represent a small portion of the income. In some places, they don't earn anything from barfines period (because they don't have bar fines to begin with).

Gee davethailand, guess you'd better shut the BF down. Apparently you haven't been able to operate for 5 successful years now, because you don't have bar fines !

Not having barfines would present a problem in some places, as staff would feel free to get up and leave when ever they felt like it, leaving no one to actually work in the bar.

This absolutely amazes me.

People that willingly admit to using prostitutes, getting all worked up over having to pay a bar fine.

(oh yeah, just so you know. I paid the bar fine tonight for a girl that lives in my building. We then went out for a bite to eat. Then off to a club where another girl we know works. Then it was off to her club to socialize a bit more. Then we came home. She went off to her apartment, and I went to mine. Is she a hooker ? Am I a john ? Is the manager/owner of her club a pimp ?)

Edited July 23, 2006 by Kerryd

[kerryk]

There are many bar girls who own more than one home and more than one auto. Far from being exploited there are many bar girls who go on to buy bars or other businesses and prosper.

There are also many who get married to gullible farangs and have these things bought for them.

There is at least one poster on this thread who did just that but still believes the bar is his

I agree with you completely. I have a Thai lady friend who owns two homes in Issan, two new cars and a bar in Pattaya. She is 23. And the Falangs who have sponsored this woman come once a year to check their investment. Would you believe it, she still works freelance? I don’t have an explanation for their (falang) stupidity or her proclivities. But she is one happy camper. I owe her a debt because she took care of my lady during a difficult time in her past, (they were raised in the same small village) so I just go along with the deal. In fact I am impressed with her entrepreneurial ability.

[davethailand]

So you don't mind paying for the girls services you just resent paying the barfine?

i will never pay a pimp to go with a girl.

and kerryd - your arguments are ridiculous. would a bar be unable to operate without bar fines? no.

you make it sound like the girls working in bars are there regaling the customers with fantastic stories or doing musical turns to spellbind the customers into staying. the reality is they are there waiting for someone to take them home so they can earn some money. you are a pimp, simple.

Two of the most successful bars in Bangkok, Gulliver’s and The Beer Garden have hundreds of women and don’t charge bar fines.

Yeh because they are freelancers.

Of course they are freelancers. The response was to the statement “ would a bar be unable to operate without bar fines? No.” And that is false. Of course a bar would be able to operate with literally hundreds of women being in the bar without any bar fines being paid and there are numerous examples of this.

But freelancers also won't get the same perks as employed girls who of course have to pay barfine.

Dave you are missing my point. The poster said bars would not be profitable without bar fines. That is not true. There are many bars and discos that are eminently successful without charging any bar fines.

The disco in the Nana hotel makes a small fortune and employees no ladies for hire. As do many other places in Thailand. Spicy in Chiang Mai is a freelancer paradise as is Bubble. They both do not employ and pay for play personnel but they make a ton of money.

My point is ,to beat a dead horse, bar fines are not necessary for a bar to make money.

In that case my bar can join your list.

[JRingo]

You seem to be missing the point Kerryd.

It is not the barfine in of itself that I find offensive, it is the pimps that charge it.

They are making money off of the least fortunate of our world.

It is clearly exploiting the girls misfortune of being born poor,

which makes the practice despicable.

[kerryk]

A note to the mods.

I appreciate the flexibility to discuss an issue which is a business in Thailand. A business which is good and bad but still a business. It is a driving force in Thailand doing much to support the economy and especially in places where without it poverty would become epidemic and lead to starvation and hardship for all.

I think people forget about all the support people that are involved with keeping one bar girl in the field.

It is the same thing with a soldier. It takes 8 support troops to keep one combat soldier operational.

The same can be said for bar girls. There at least 8 other people not directly involved in the pay for play industry that owe their living to one bar girl.

Without them Thailand’s economy would crash.