Sex Tourism

[longway]

i think the generlisations by leftx jringo and others are silly and ubsustantiated.

btw it wasnt a good post just a tool to equate a barowner with someone who TAKES MONEY from addicts (and creates them too), rather than someone who employs girls in a bar who will have sex with customers if they so choose.

drug dealing has nothing to do with owning a bar with bargirls.

[tourleadersi]

drug dealing has nothing to do with owning a bar with bargirls.

It does if you share the opinion that leftcross has. As I have repeatedly said I do not concur, but his post was well written by someone who has an opinion that differs to mine.

I do believe that there are good and bad bar owners, some are just as bad as drug dealers, and others probably do more good for the people they come into contact with than some devout religious types (light the touchpaper, retire a safe distance..... ).

You are right, there are a lot of generalisations in this discussion, but just as some cannot agree that there are good bar owners, there seem to be an equal number who cannot accept that some are really not the shining lights in this society. Some instances are the fault of the bar owner, some of the bargirls, some of economic circumstances, some the johns, and some from the simple fact of which village you are born in.

[longway]

It does if you share the opinion that leftcross has. As I have repeatedly said I do not concur, but his post was well written by someone who has an opinion that differs to mine.

actually the well written post was the one he copied and replaced barowner with drug dealer.

[alexth]

i think the generlisations by leftx jringo and others are silly and ubsustantiated.

btw it wasnt a good post just a tool to equate a barowner with someone who TAKES MONEY from addicts (and creates them too), rather than someone who employs girls in a bar who will have sex with customers if they so choose.

drug dealing has nothing to do with owning a bar with bargirls.

They might have comed with this ideea from the places they were hanging out while back home

[kerryk]

Economic Impact.

This is not Kansas. If a older Farang goes into a mall or grocery store and makes eye contact with a clerk and asks her out for a drink after work he will eventually be asked for money. If a older Farang goes to a coffee shop where uni girls hang out and buys one a cup of coffee and eventually a date he will be at some time be asked for money.

I would imagine one in ten Thai married men has a mia noi. That works out to 1,250,000 paid mistresses in Thailand.

Any way you look at it there approximately 5 million sex workers in Thailand. Five million people make a large impact on any economy. Sex workers defined as people who at some time during the year are engaged in pay for play. Estimates at some universities put the figure as high as 50% of the students. Massage workers; a high percent. Retail clerks; a small but significant number. Workers in the entertainment industry such as bars and clubs have a turnover of at least 100% a year so when you see a bar or club multiply the number of employees by 100% to get a yearly figure.

I would estimate there are 50,000 people working in the bar trade in Thailand that cater to people who come from outside Thailand. Conservatively I would estimate they make 300,000 Baht per year each. That is 15,000,000,000 baht that is spent mainly on consumer goods. That is 15 billion baht that does not come out of the ground like gas or oil and does not deplete a natural resource. That is 15 billion that goes to all levels of society including doctors, lawyers, police and ever other segment of society. To suggest that 15 billion would not be missed or is not a driving force in the economy is not accurate.

If one includes the Thai segment of the industry the total dollars are staggering.

I find it odd that Farangs get upset about this business. Thai people don’t seem to mind at all. I was at a birthday party a few weeks ago for a lady who owned a karaoke club. There were all different elements of society there, a banker, a doctor, a research scientist, soldiers, a few Japanese guys, restaurant workers, a couple of policeman and 10 bar girls who worked at various clubs. Everybody danced and socialized and was introduced to everyone’s babies and grandmothers. There was absolutely no social stigma attached to the bar girls or the bar owners.

If you have a hi so Thai wife ask her at what age her brothers started patronizing pay for play establishments. I think the answer may surprise you.

[tourleadersi]

It does if you share the opinion that leftcross has. As I have repeatedly said I do not concur, but his post was well written by someone who has an opinion that differs to mine.

actually the well written post was the one he copied and replaced barowner with drug dealer.

Uh yeah, that was the one I was talking about! Your earlier post seemed to criticise it so I explained why I thought it was a good post. Were you referring to another post that leftcross made?

[tourleadersi]

It does if you share the opinion that leftcross has. As I have repeatedly said I do not concur, but his post was well written by someone who has an opinion that differs to mine.

actually the well written post was the one he copied and replaced barowner with drug dealer.

OK, the penny has just dropped. You mean he didn't really write it at all but just changed a few words right? Yes, I was aware of what he had done, and I thought it was pretty clever actually. He barely changed any words and yet highlighted the similarities between some bar owners and drug dealers. I stand by my original opinion, it was a good post.

[mittheimp]

Economic Impact.

I find it odd that Farangs get upset about this business. Thai people don’t seem to mind at all. I was at a birthday party a few weeks ago for a lady who owned a karaoke club. There were all different elements of society there, a banker, a doctor, a research scientist, soldiers, a few Japanese guys, restaurant workers, a couple of policeman and 10 bar girls who worked at various clubs. Everybody danced and socialized and was introduced to everyone’s babies and grandmothers. There was absolutely no social stigma attached to the bar girls or the bar owners.

If you have a hi so Thai wife ask her at what age her brothers started patronizing pay for play establishments. I think the answer may surprise you.

!!!!!!!! So you clearly do have a good grip on Thai culture!!! - You really saying there is no social stigma attached to bar girls in Thailand - maybe not in parts of Pattaya, but i think u need to get out more!

[ZZZ]

Pointless discussion really without a definitive definition of “Pimp”.

If it means making money from prostitutes then most business owners in Pattaya, Patong and some other places would be considered being pimps.

If it means controlling prostitutes and taking most of their earnings then there would be very few pimps, and probably no farang pimps.

[Insight]

Economic Impact.

This is not Kansas. If a older Farang goes into a mall or grocery store and makes eye contact with a clerk and asks her out for a drink after work he will eventually be asked for money. If a older Farang goes to a coffee shop where uni girls hang out and buys one a cup of coffee and eventually a date he will be at some time be asked for money.

I would imagine one in ten Thai married men has a mia noi. That works out to 1,250,000 paid mistresses in Thailand.

Any way you look at it there approximately 5 million sex workers in Thailand. Five million people make a large impact on any economy. Sex workers defined as people who at some time during the year are engaged in pay for play. Estimates at some universities put the figure as high as 50% of the students. Massage workers; a high percent. Retail clerks; a small but significant number. Workers in the entertainment industry such as bars and clubs have a turnover of at least 100% a year so when you see a bar or club multiply the number of employees by 100% to get a yearly figure.

I would estimate there are 50,000 people working in the bar trade in Thailand that cater to people who come from outside Thailand. Conservatively I would estimate they make 300,000 Baht per year each. That is 15,000,000,000 baht that is spent mainly on consumer goods. That is 15 billion baht that does not come out of the ground like gas or oil and does not deplete a natural resource. That is 15 billion that goes to all levels of society including doctors, lawyers, police and ever other segment of society. To suggest that 15 billion would not be missed or is not a driving force in the economy is not accurate.

If one includes the Thai segment of the industry the total dollars are staggering.

I find it odd that Farangs get upset about this business. Thai people don’t seem to mind at all. I was at a birthday party a few weeks ago for a lady who owned a karaoke club. There were all different elements of society there, a banker, a doctor, a research scientist, soldiers, a few Japanese guys, restaurant workers, a couple of policeman and 10 bar girls who worked at various clubs. Everybody danced and socialized and was introduced to everyone’s babies and grandmothers. There was absolutely no social stigma attached to the bar girls or the bar owners.

If you have a hi so Thai wife ask her at what age her brothers started patronizing pay for play establishments. I think the answer may surprise you.

Another pearler - 5 million sex workers.

300,000 baht per year? All of them? Every single one? I believe some stunners do very well, but the entire bargirl population? And for every satang earned, are they swinging on their latest mobiles to their stockbrokers, checking out the most recent developments in property, stocks and bonds?

As for the first paragraph, I'll never look at taking the girlfriend to Starbucks in the same way again.

FYI - Some NGO's stick the sex-worker figure in Thailand much closer to 2mil.

Edited July 24, 2006 by Insight

[alexth]

I wonder what a bar girl would think of this thread

[Plus]

How come none mentioned Thai "beer girls"? The ones employed to sell beer - Heineken, Chang etc. you can see in many big restaurants/pubs. There's no way you can take them out - they are employed to sell beer.

What are the girls in "farang" bars are employed to do? Sell beer and be ready to leave with customers (to provide sexual services, as everyone knows). Part of a job.

Or look at it from another angle - people provide a safe venue for prostitutes to solicit and in return cash in on the crowds attracted to sex trade through beers sales and bar fines.

Is it illegal, illicit, or immoral? This terms are redefined here everyday to suit one's needs. When I grew up it was both illegal and immoral, and it still is for me. Others might have their own ideas.

[kerryk]

Economic Impact.

This is not Kansas. If a older Farang goes into a mall or grocery store and makes eye contact with a clerk and asks her out for a drink after work he will eventually be asked for money. If a older Farang goes to a coffee shop where uni girls hang out and buys one a cup of coffee and eventually a date he will be at some time be asked for money.

I would imagine one in ten Thai married men has a mia noi. That works out to 1,250,000 paid mistresses in Thailand.

Any way you look at it there approximately 5 million sex workers in Thailand. Five million people make a large impact on any economy. Sex workers defined as people who at some time during the year are engaged in pay for play. Estimates at some universities put the figure as high as 50% of the students. Massage workers; a high percent. Retail clerks; a small but significant number. Workers in the entertainment industry such as bars and clubs have a turnover of at least 100% a year so when you see a bar or club multiply the number of employees by 100% to get a yearly figure.

I would estimate there are 50,000 people working in the bar trade in Thailand that cater to people who come from outside Thailand. Conservatively I would estimate they make 300,000 Baht per year each. That is 15,000,000,000 baht that is spent mainly on consumer goods. That is 15 billion baht that does not come out of the ground like gas or oil and does not deplete a natural resource. That is 15 billion that goes to all levels of society including doctors, lawyers, police and ever other segment of society. To suggest that 15 billion would not be missed or is not a driving force in the economy is not accurate.

If one includes the Thai segment of the industry the total dollars are staggering.

I find it odd that Farangs get upset about this business. Thai people don’t seem to mind at all. I was at a birthday party a few weeks ago for a lady who owned a karaoke club. There were all different elements of society there, a banker, a doctor, a research scientist, soldiers, a few Japanese guys, restaurant workers, a couple of policeman and 10 bar girls who worked at various clubs. Everybody danced and socialized and was introduced to everyone’s babies and grandmothers. There was absolutely no social stigma attached to the bar girls or the bar owners.

If you have a hi so Thai wife ask her at what age her brothers started patronizing pay for play establishments. I think the answer may surprise you.

Another pearler - 5 million sex workers.

300,000 baht per year? All of them? Every single one? I believe some stunners do very well, but the entire bargirl population? And for every satang earned, are they swinging on their latest mobiles to their stockbrokers, checking out the most recent developments in property, stocks and bonds?

As for the first paragraph, I'll never look at taking the girlfriend to Starbucks in the same way again.

FYI - Some NGO's stick the sex-worker figure in Thailand much closer to 2mil.

I don’t think the NGO’s included mia nois or college students or retail workers or spa’s or internet girls. I also think most statistics are a snapshot of a particular point in time and do not take into consideration turnover for a year.

The 300,000 baht figure is not really high when you consider the investment in property, businesses and real estate that is commonly made and the money sent to Thailand for girls not to work in bars.

Also there is a substantial amount of money paid for women no longer actively involved in the trade but in a living situation with Farang. These liaisons commonly last a year or two and then the lady goes back into business after the Farang runs out of money or patience. Unless marriage occurs I would put these earnings in the pay for play category.

Lets take Suzi for an example. She gets 5000 baht a month from three guys for not working in a bar. She makes 20,000 baht to work in the bar. She gets a percent of her drinks and bar fines 20,000 and she has one man per night 45,000 baht. Total earnings 100,000 a month. Suzi is at the top of the list but she is by no means unusual. I used a figure of only 25,000 baht per month to arrive at the 300,000 number.

[t.s]

I am not really certain why this thread has created such an outcry, though it is very similar to a thread I saw on another board a few years back called "Please dont call them whores"

There were a number of alternate names bandied about libe BGs or TBGs etc, but it was all euphemism, the use of an alternate word or name to soften the real meaning. People were very passionate about finding a more pleasant term, to describe the objects of their desire and fascination. What bothered them most was that if the girls were whores, they themselves were johns (or worse), and that didn't sit well.

So, While dave is right, and the the bar fine is to compensate the bar owner if the woman leaves the bar, the fact of the matter is that the business is set up to allow the girl to leave, and therefore the owner expects to profit out of the sex trade. There is no reason to allow an employee to leave in midshift otherwise.

So, yes, they are pimps. If bar owners weren't pimping and allowing women in their employ to operate as prostitutes, the women would not be able to leave during their shift.

If I go to the Bullshead, Bullies, Q Bar, Bed or any of these other businesses, I cannot and do not expect to be able to buy the waitresses out. It is that simple. The women are not for sale, rent or othewise.

Now i do not have any desire to comment on the morality of this type of business or the people who conduxt it , but I do find it ridiculous to try and dress it up as something it isn't, especially if it is paying your bills.

Edited July 24, 2006 by t.s

[Insight]

Kerryk, I still think your figures are way out, but going back to your original post that provoked mine...

A note to the mods.

I appreciate the flexibility to discuss an issue which is a business in Thailand. A business which is good and bad but still a business. It is a driving force in Thailand doing much to support the economy and especially in places where without it poverty would become epidemic and lead to starvation and hardship for all.

I think people forget about all the support people that are involved with keeping one bar girl in the field.

It is the same thing with a soldier. It takes 8 support troops to keep one combat soldier operational.

The same can be said for bar girls. There at least 8 other people not directly involved in the pay for play industry that owe their living to one bar girl.

Without them Thailand’s economy would crash.

Even if bar girls and other girls who were some guy's bit on the side ceased to be, the economy would still have more than a fighting chance.

[kerryk]

Economic Impact.

I find it odd that Farangs get upset about this business. Thai people don’t seem to mind at all. I was at a birthday party a few weeks ago for a lady who owned a karaoke club. There were all different elements of society there, a banker, a doctor, a research scientist, soldiers, a few Japanese guys, restaurant workers, a couple of policeman and 10 bar girls who worked at various clubs. Everybody danced and socialized and was introduced to everyone’s babies and grandmothers. There was absolutely no social stigma attached to the bar girls or the bar owners.

If you have a hi so Thai wife ask her at what age her brothers started patronizing pay for play establishments. I think the answer may surprise you.

!!!!!!!! So you clearly do have a good grip on Thai culture!!! - You really saying there is no social stigma attached to bar girls in Thailand - maybe not in parts of Pattaya, but i think u need to get out more!

I didn’t really mean to imply that bar girls are acceptable at all levels of society. I meant to illustrate that there is not the absolute rejection of the genre as it is in the West. I think many people bring their Western values to Thailand and judge the culture through Western eyes. Many successful female business owners in Thailand started out as bar girls or worked their way through school as part time bar girls. Owning brothels is not a problem for Thai politicians as demonstrated in Bangkok. In the West even a hint of that would be enough to never be elected except in California.

[Sing_Sling]

I've stayed out of this discussion because of wonderful opinions that bargilrs are entrepreneurial businesswomen who own several houses, cars, earn more than doctors and are, basically, a second mother Theresa.

The point was rightly made as to how many of these Businesswomen of the Year end up with HIV and the rest . . . I have an acquaintance that might be able to give you a guided tour of a women's hostel, kerryk, where the majority of women are dying from AIDS . . . many of the bargirls.

davethailand comes up with his usualy gem of 'if you don't like it then don't complain or leave' or something to that extent. Gems, mate. Pure gems.

kerryd's geat words of wisdom: 'get a life' to someone who disagrees . . . Yes, well . . .

Why is it so difficult to accept that bar owners who operate under such circumstances are rightly called pimps? Can't change a fact.

Conversely, I don't buy the argument that Caucasian bar owners give Caucasians a bad name . . . Very few are in that trade and there are enough ways for Caucasians to give themselves a bad name.

All in all it is a business, is it not? Do the bar owners profit from bar fines? If so, then that makes them pimps. No value judgement here, not discussing the rights and wrongs of prostitution or the exploitation thereof.

A pimp is a pimp is a pimp.

I've stayed out of this discussion because of wonderful opinions

And you should have stayed out of it, this generalization of all bar owners being the same is tiresome.

Again you suggest otehrs should stay out of discussions . . . odd, but I don't believe that decision should be yours to make and - where do I say that all bar owners are the same? Reality check, Dave, reality check.

[kerryk]

Kerryk, I still think your figures are way out, but going back to your original post that provoked mine...

A note to the mods.

I appreciate the flexibility to discuss an issue which is a business in Thailand. A business which is good and bad but still a business. It is a driving force in Thailand doing much to support the economy and especially in places where without it poverty would become epidemic and lead to starvation and hardship for all.

I think people forget about all the support people that are involved with keeping one bar girl in the field.

It is the same thing with a soldier. It takes 8 support troops to keep one combat soldier operational.

The same can be said for bar girls. There at least 8 other people not directly involved in the pay for play industry that owe their living to one bar girl.

Without them Thailand’s economy would crash.

Even if bar girls and other girls who were some guy's bit on the side ceased to be, the economy would still have more than a fighting chance.

Lets take a look at peripheral industries. The three major tourist destinations in Thailand, Bangkok, Pattaya and Chiang Mai. Hotels would be off 80% in Pattaya, 30% in Bangkok and 20% in Chiang Mai. Restaurant sales would suffer in the same percent as would petrol sales to a lesser degree and cabs and tuk tuks revenue. Scooter sales would fall drastically as would new construction in Pattaya and to a lesser extent in Bangkok and CM. Gold sales would plummet as would bank deposits. Air travel would be off 30% across the board. Retail sales in clothing would drastically decrease and cell phones would take an equal hit. Pharmacy sales would be off more than 40%. Hospital income would drop drastically. Police income would plummet and start a mass exodus of policeman to other trades. With the above economic facts unemployment would rise by leaps and bounds. There would be food riots in Issan. Tattoo sales would be off 80%. High heeled boot manufacture would cease.

Could the economy of Thailand absorb 5 million workers into other areas of the economy? No, not possible. 1 million unemployed would create chaos.

It would not only be a grave loss of income but a tremendous strain on the social system to try and support those out of work.

The combination of those two facts would sink Thailand into a depression that it would take decades to recover from.

[kat]

Prostitutes that cater to Thais and prostitutes that cater to farangs behave and present themselves in very different manners. So, altho there were some prostitutes on this island before it was not much (and no, I am not sticking my head in the sand, it is a very small island and I am well aware of the underbelly)...

It wasn't much that you could see, or as visible. As you said, the style is different, but just as prevelant and more so on the Thai-style side. Don't get me wrong - I do like your post, and agree with your perspective.

... "a man who controls prostitutes, especially by finding customers for them, and takes some of the money that they earn".

Taking this definition, the first element to consider would be the word "control". How much "control" over the women does the bar owner have? Does he dictate the hours they work and who they must "engage" with?

Yes, and in the sense that all employers wield a form of control over their employees to either maximize profit or productivity, strip clubs, brothels, and bar-girl bars are no exception. There is ALWAYS a form of control in these establishments, because a bar or strip club is a commercial establishment, with the primary goal of making a profit with women or sex as the commodity.

Now, before you flame me, ponder on whether or not what I'm stating is fact or not, because that's what I'm talking about here.

There are many bar girls who own more than one home and more than one auto. Far from being exploited there are many bar girls who go on to buy bars or other businesses and prosper.

There are also many who get married to gullible farangs and have these things bought for them.

There is at least one poster on this thread who did just that but still believes the bar is his

There are many bar girls who own more than one home and more than one auto. Far from being exploited there are many bar girls who go on to buy bars or other businesses and prosper.

There are also many who get married to gullible farangs and have these things bought for them.

There is at least one poster on this thread who did just that but still believes the bar is his

I agree with you completely. I have a Thai lady friend who owns two homes in Issan, two new cars and a bar in Pattaya. She is 23. And the Falangs who have sponsored this woman come once a year to check their investment. Would you believe it, she still works freelance? I don’t have an explanation for their (falang) stupidity or her proclivities. But she is one happy camper. I owe her a debt because she took care of my lady during a difficult time in her past, (they were raised in the same small village) so I just go along with the deal. In fact I am impressed with her entrepreneurial ability.

Right, except that her entrepreneurial ability does not stem from a process of increased skill, education, or technological advancement, but from complete dependence on foreigners who pay her to be a kept prostitute, as opposed to a freelancer. Basically, she has cut out the middle men or women and become her own producer and produce, a definite step up in her personal entrepreneurial game, but very little in the way of development or progress.

[leftcross]

So you think it is time to change the stereotype of a pimp. OK Talk to the image makers.

What have you done to change the system as it exists in Thailand? Do you have any positive sugestions to improve the lot of the people in the industry?

Being an armchair/internt critic is one thing, acutally doing something is a whole kettle of fish.

yes i have a positive suggestion, stop the pimps taking the bar fine to feed their own grubby little wallet.

i have no moral objection to prostitution or to the people who use prostitutes.

my only objection is to the middle men pimps who take money out of the loop for themselves

what do you expect me to do in thailand? can't vote, no thai nationality, and nobody gives a fk what i think. but that doesnt stop me from having negative feelings towards pimps, drug dealers etc etc

[t.s]

Economic Impact.

I find it odd that Farangs get upset about this business. Thai people don’t seem to mind at all. I was at a birthday party a few weeks ago for a lady who owned a karaoke club. There were all different elements of society there, a banker, a doctor, a research scientist, soldiers, a few Japanese guys, restaurant workers, a couple of policeman and 10 bar girls who worked at various clubs. Everybody danced and socialized and was introduced to everyone’s babies and grandmothers. There was absolutely no social stigma attached to the bar girls or the bar owners.

If you have a hi so Thai wife ask her at what age her brothers started patronizing pay for play establishments. I think the answer may surprise you.

!!!!!!!! So you clearly do have a good grip on Thai culture!!! - You really saying there is no social stigma attached to bar girls in Thailand - maybe not in parts of Pattaya, but i think u need to get out more!

I didn’t really mean to imply that bar girls are acceptable at all levels of society. I meant to illustrate that there is not the absolute rejection of the genre as it is in the West. I think many people bring their Western values to Thailand and judge the culture through Western eyes. Many successful female business owners in Thailand started out as bar girls or worked their way through school as part time bar girls. Owning brothels is not a problem for Thai politicians as demonstrated in Bangkok. In the West even a hint of that would be enough to never be elected except in California.

As westerners what other kind of eyes can we look through?

I think the previous poster is right, you need to get out of Pats and take a closer look at Thai mores.

You have pointed out a double standard. Any woman accused of prostitutuion would be pretty quickly ostracised, while a brothel owner would be only slightly unsavoury. But he would not be totally accepted. Take Chuwit's career as an example, he certainly didn't gain much political cred, and he shed the business, but couldn't get rid of the image.

Edited July 24, 2006 by t.s

[Kerryd]

He barely changed any words and yet highlighted the similarities between some bar owners and drug dealers. I stand by my original opinion, it was a good post.

Except that it seems he only thinks this applies to "farang" bar owners, and has the opinion that all "farang" bar owners are pimps.

And as far as comparing bar owners to drug dealers ? Utterly ridiculous. Makes me seriously wonder if he has even the slightest clue what he is talking about.

Drug dealers like to get their clientele hooked on drugs. The addictive nature of those drugs doesn't matter to the dealer. All he is concerned about is getting more and more people hooked, so he can sell more and more drugs.

Try spending time in an area like the lower East Side of Vancouver. Talk to some of the social workers and some of the few that have been able to kick the habit. Talk to the police that have to deal with the dealers and their victims every day. Then tell me that drug dealers and bar owners are "same same".

What a load of crap.

The vast majority of the girls working in bars are there voluntarily. They may face pressure from family to earn money, but pretty much all the girls I've known came here on their own. They've heard from friends and other "relatives" about the big money that can be made.

Many don't tell their families what they do for a living. Some tell their families that they work as hair dressers and such. They want to be able to return home with their heads held high one day. Their families and neighbours may have their suspicions, but as long as it isn't voiced openly, everyone pretty much ignores the reality.

Many of the girls I know send at least half their income home to their parents.

Many of them have children at home, the result of dead-beat Thai boyfriends who dumped them when they got knocked up.

Yeah, they could take their grade 8 education and get a good job sweeping streets for minimum wage. Work their butts off in the hot sun everyday doing construction work, or collecting garbage. Of course, by the time they pay for their accommodations, food and day-to-day needs, it doesn't leave a lot to raise a child on, does it ?

So they go to work in the bars. Many of them earn more in a couple of years, than their parents earned in their whole lifetimes. Some use their money to pay off their parents debts and to support their children. Some bank the money. Some spend it like there's no tomorrow, just like I did during my first few years in the army.

Many girls work the trade for a few years until they have enough stashed away to meet their needs, then they quit and go home. Nobody forces them to stay.

Some meet nice guys, get married and quit working. Some don't (get married or quit working).

Meanwhile, bars exist to make money selling booze. They hire girls (mostly) to sell and serve the booze. Guys (mostly) go to the bars to drink and pick-up women. They could go to the malls, convenience stores and restaurants to pick up women (some do), but guess what ? Most of those women can't just up and leave work at a whim ! They'd get fired, period. No job, no money.

Bars are no different. They make most, if not all, their money selling BOOZE. Got it ? Booze.

A bar without staff wouldn't be able to operate now, would it ?

Yet some people seem to think that they should be able to take girls away from the bar, while they are working, without penalty or compensation.

They have no problem with morality when it comes to engaging in prostitution, but are resentful that a bar wants to be compensated for losing the services of an employee.

I tell you what. Next time you go to work, spend about an hour there, then just get up and leave. Go eat, hit a bar, get drunk and go home.

Go to work the next day. Spend an hour or two there, then leave. Go eat, drink, party and go home.

Do it all again the next day.

Oh wait. Probably won't be a next day, will there ? Your butt will probably be fired and rightfully so. What boss would put up with behaviour like that ?

Yet you seem to think that "farang" bar owners should put up with that kind of behaviour.

Which reminds me. Why is OK for the all the Thai bar owners (which represents the majority of bar owners) to charge bar fines, but "farang" bar owners are pimps for doing the same thing ?

Get something straight. The bar-fine has NOTHING to do with sex.

How many times do you have to be told ? The bar fine is a fee the GIRL has to pay in order to leave her workplace without penalty.

SHE has to pay it, even if SHE just wants to leave work by herself, or decides SHE doesn't want to work at all that day.

From what I've seen/heard, the amount SHE pays to bar fine HERSELF, is less than what is required if YOU are paying HER fine for HER.

SHE will (usually) get you to pay HER bar fine. In that case, SHE gets a cut of the bar fine.

Even if you pay HER bar fine, she is in NO WAY committed to having sex with you. Got it ?

I doubt you'll understand it though.

Quite a few people losers seem to think paying the bar fine gives them virtual ownership of the girl.

They then get upset and whine like little kids when they find out the girl still has the option, the choice, about what she is/isn't willing to do with said loser.

So tell us, is that what happened ? You went out the other night to a farang-owned bar, paid a girl's bar fine, and she refused to have sex with you ? So now you are bitter towards farang bar owners in general, and specifically those whose bars charge bar fines ?

Are we getting close to the truth here ?

[kat]

Economic Impact.

This is not Kansas. If a older Farang goes into a mall or grocery store and makes eye contact with a clerk and asks her out for a drink after work he will eventually be asked for money. If a older Farang goes to a coffee shop where uni girls hang out and buys one a cup of coffee and eventually a date he will be at some time be asked for money.

I would imagine one in ten Thai married men has a mia noi. That works out to 1,250,000 paid mistresses in Thailand.

Any way you look at it there approximately 5 million sex workers in Thailand. Five million people make a large impact on any economy. Sex workers defined as people who at some time during the year are engaged in pay for play. Estimates at some universities put the figure as high as 50% of the students. Massage workers; a high percent. Retail clerks; a small but significant number. Workers in the entertainment industry such as bars and clubs have a turnover of at least 100% a year so when you see a bar or club multiply the number of employees by 100% to get a yearly figure.

I would estimate there are 50,000 people working in the bar trade in Thailand that cater to people who come from outside Thailand. Conservatively I would estimate they make 300,000 Baht per year each. That is 15,000,000,000 baht that is spent mainly on consumer goods. That is 15 billion baht that does not come out of the ground like gas or oil and does not deplete a natural resource. That is 15 billion that goes to all levels of society including doctors, lawyers, police and ever other segment of society. To suggest that 15 billion would not be missed or is not a driving force in the economy is not accurate.

If one includes the Thai segment of the industry the total dollars are staggering.

I find it odd that Farangs get upset about this business. Thai people don’t seem to mind at all. I was at a birthday party a few weeks ago for a lady who owned a karaoke club. There were all different elements of society there, a banker, a doctor, a research scientist, soldiers, a few Japanese guys, restaurant workers, a couple of policeman and 10 bar girls who worked at various clubs. Everybody danced and socialized and was introduced to everyone’s babies and grandmothers. There was absolutely no social stigma attached to the bar girls or the bar owners.

If you have a hi so Thai wife ask her at what age her brothers started patronizing pay for play establishments. I think the answer may surprise you.

Another pearler - 5 million sex workers.

300,000 baht per year? All of them? Every single one? I believe some stunners do very well, but the entire bargirl population? And for every satang earned, are they swinging on their latest mobiles to their stockbrokers, checking out the most recent developments in property, stocks and bonds?

As for the first paragraph, I'll never look at taking the girlfriend to Starbucks in the same way again.

FYI - Some NGO's stick the sex-worker figure in Thailand much closer to 2mil.

Right, and so now we know why some men come here and pronounce this paradise, or the land of "alpha" women. It can appear that everything and everyone here is for sale in one way or another, and if you have the cash or the business acumen, then you too can make money off your little piece of paradise. Meanwhile, the business of prostitution in various forms has become one of the most developed and exportable skills in the country.

Yes, this is how it's done in Thailand. At one time, black people and other racial minorities had to accept their discrimination and second-class lifestyle as a way of life because that's how it was done; people and ethnic minorities in Burma have to accept military occupation, rape, and starvation because that's how it's done; in certain Islamic countries, women and girls are jailed for being raped because that's how it's done; entire villages and men in groups rape and molest children because that's how it's done.

I'm sorry, but that's not really a defense of ethics, if that's what we're talking about here. You come across as an intelligent man so I think you do know this.

But I agree, the statistics could be much higher than 2 million, which is why we don't have official statistics and definitions to begin with. There is a crisis here, but people are too busy enjoying and enriching themselves to do complain.

*another point of agreement KerryK: looking at things through Western eyes -- yes, I do, to an extent. As we all do to an extent when it comes to human rights and development - this is an unavoidable truth.

I understand the pull for a woman of very little means to gain a foothold through the most lucrative profession for women in this county. However, in Thailand this is no longer a foot-hold but a permanent stronghold, and yes, I do view that as a serious social problem for the future and dignity of women.

Edited July 24, 2006 by kat

[Sing_Sling]

Would Thailand's economy really suffer, or even break down? I think not. Have a look at the follwoing numbers and then extrapolate them:

GDP (purchasing power parity):

$560.7 billion (2005 est.)

Labor force:

35.36 million (2005 est.)

Labor force - by occupation:

agriculture: 49%

industry: 14%

services: 37%

Population:

64,631,595

HIV/AIDS - people living with HIV/AIDS:

570,000 (2003 est.)

HIV/AIDS - deaths:

58,000 (2003 est.)

If we count sex workers as part of the working population and use Kerryk's example of 5million -

Part of the workforce: Let's assume that the workforce is split 50/50, then out of 17 million women employed, roughly 30% would be sex workers.

Not part of the workforce: Let's assume that the non-work registered female population is 15 million.

We then deduct those 0-14 (7 million) and those 64+ (2.8 million) and we are left with 5.2 million women between the ages of 15-65.

The percentage of prostitutes among Thailand's non-work registered women would be a staggering 90+% . . . and that includes women in their 50's and 60's!!!

Kerryk, possibly your numbers are off, which means that your statment about how much Thailand's economy would suffer is highly inaccurate.

Sex tourism isn't the only tourism in Thailand and as far as prostitution being an accepted part of Thai life . . . not a chance, Thais are some of the most conservative people in Asia.

[Ling Kae]

He barely changed any words and yet highlighted the similarities between some bar owners and drug dealers. I stand by my original opinion, it was a good post.

Except that it seems he only thinks this applies to "farang" bar owners, and has the opinion that all "farang" bar owners are pimps.

And as far as comparing bar owners to drug dealers ? Utterly ridiculous. Makes me seriously wonder if he has even the slightest clue what he is talking about.

Drug dealers like to get their clientele hooked on drugs. The addictive nature of those drugs doesn't matter to the dealer. All he is concerned about is getting more and more people hooked, so he can sell more and more drugs.

Try spending time in an area like the lower East Side of Vancouver. Talk to some of the social workers and some of the few that have been able to kick the habit. Talk to the police that have to deal with the dealers and their victims every day. Then tell me that drug dealers and bar owners are "same same".

What a load of crap.

The vast majority of the girls working in bars are there voluntarily. They may face pressure from family to earn money, but pretty much all the girls I've known came here on their own. They've heard from friends and other "relatives" about the big money that can be made.

Many don't tell their families what they do for a living. Some tell their families that they work as hair dressers and such. They want to be able to return home with their heads held high one day. Their families and neighbours may have their suspicions, but as long as it isn't voiced openly, everyone pretty much ignores the reality.

Many of the girls I know send at least half their income home to their parents.

Many of them have children at home, the result of dead-beat Thai boyfriends who dumped them when they got knocked up.

Yeah, they could take their grade 8 education and get a good job sweeping streets for minimum wage. Work their butts off in the hot sun everyday doing construction work, or collecting garbage. Of course, by the time they pay for their accommodations, food and day-to-day needs, it doesn't leave a lot to raise a child on, does it ?

So they go to work in the bars. Many of them earn more in a couple of years, than their parents earned in their whole lifetimes. Some use their money to pay off their parents debts and to support their children. Some bank the money. Some spend it like there's no tomorrow, just like I did during my first few years in the army.

Many girls work the trade for a few years until they have enough stashed away to meet their needs, then they quit and go home. Nobody forces them to stay.

Some meet nice guys, get married and quit working. Some don't (get married or quit working).

Meanwhile, bars exist to make money selling booze. They hire girls (mostly) to sell and serve the booze. Guys (mostly) go to the bars to drink and pick-up women. They could go to the malls, convenience stores and restaurants to pick up women (some do), but guess what ? Most of those women can't just up and leave work at a whim ! They'd get fired, period. No job, no money.

Bars are no different. They make most, if not all, their money selling BOOZE. Got it ? Booze.

A bar without staff wouldn't be able to operate now, would it ?

Yet some people seem to think that they should be able to take girls away from the bar, while they are working, without penalty or compensation.

They have no problem with morality when it comes to engaging in prostitution, but are resentful that a bar wants to be compensated for losing the services of an employee.

I tell you what. Next time you go to work, spend about an hour there, then just get up and leave. Go eat, hit a bar, get drunk and go home.

Go to work the next day. Spend an hour or two there, then leave. Go eat, drink, party and go home.

Do it all again the next day.

Oh wait. Probably won't be a next day, will there ? Your butt will probably be fired and rightfully so. What boss would put up with behaviour like that ?

Yet you seem to think that "farang" bar owners should put up with that kind of behaviour.

Which reminds me. Why is OK for the all the Thai bar owners (which represents the majority of bar owners) to charge bar fines, but "farang" bar owners are pimps for doing the same thing ?

Get something straight. The bar-fine has NOTHING to do with sex.

How many times do you have to be told ? The bar fine is a fee the GIRL has to pay in order to leave her workplace without penalty.

SHE has to pay it, even if SHE just wants to leave work by herself, or decides SHE doesn't want to work at all that day.

From what I've seen/heard, the amount SHE pays to bar fine HERSELF, is less than what is required if YOU are paying HER fine for HER.

SHE will (usually) get you to pay HER bar fine. In that case, SHE gets a cut of the bar fine.

Even if you pay HER bar fine, she is in NO WAY committed to having sex with you. Got it ?

I doubt you'll understand it though.

Quite a few people losers seem to think paying the bar fine gives them virtual ownership of the girl.

They then get upset and whine like little kids when they find out the girl still has the option, the choice, about what she is/isn't willing to do with said loser.

So tell us, is that what happened ? You went out the other night to a farang-owned bar, paid a girl's bar fine, and she refused to have sex with you ? So now you are bitter towards farang bar owners in general, and specifically those whose bars charge bar fines ?

Are we getting close to the truth here ?

Kerryd your post is the most accurate so far. It is obvious to me that you actually live in Pattaya and have a full understanding of how things work here. Thanks for telling how it really is, I tried but leftcross changed all my words and inserted drug dealer where bar owner was. Bar businesses are legitimate businesses drug dealing is not. So I think his editing of my post was totally irrelevant and quite childish.

[kat]

Sing_Sling:

I understand what you are saying and trying to prove here, but these are only published statistics. Almost NONE of the statistics here are reliable to begin with (a well published fact so don't shoot the messenger please), and much of the economy is informal and blackmarket. The market share of blackmarket revenues alone makes the informal economy here an oxymoron.

And, that is no accident.

[smartecosse]

Sex tourism isn't the only tourism in Thailand and as far as prostitution being an accepted part of Thai life . . . not a chance, Thais are some of the most conservative people in Asia.

funny then that there are far more "bars" for thais than for the "western" tourists

[Sing_Sling]

Sing_Sling:

I understand what you are saying and trying to prove here, but these are only published statistics. Almost NONE of the statistics here are reliable to begin with (a well published fact so don't shoot the messenger please), and much of the economy is informal and blackmarket. The market share of blackmarket revenues alone makes the informal economy here an oxymoron.

And, that is no accident.

Hi Kat,

I am aware that the stats are not reliable (I did my Masters in Economic Theory and know it's all in the way it's presented), but using population alone as a yardstick makes the 5 million mark and the ensuing contribution a bit hard to accept. The conventional economic structure is not a hollow shell, however, and its impact on keeping the country afloat is strong.

It would be interesting if one could get figures for the black market.

[Sing_Sling]

Sex tourism isn't the only tourism in Thailand and as far as prostitution being an accepted part of Thai life . . . not a chance, Thais are some of the most conservative people in Asia.

funny then that there are far more "bars" for thais than for the "western" tourists

Why is that funny, or why does that surprise you?

[smartecosse]

Sex tourism isn't the only tourism in Thailand and as far as prostitution being an accepted part of Thai life . . . not a chance, Thais are some of the most conservative people in Asia.

funny then that there are far more "bars" for thais than for the "western" tourists

Why is that funny, or why does that surprise you?

the word "funny" was being used in a sarcastic sense.

you stated that prostitution isnt accepetd in thailand as they are very conservative. the point i was trying to make, perhaps not very well, was that if this is the case why then are the "bars" that cater to farangs only a small percentage of the overall number that offer these "services" in thailand?

Edited July 24, 2006 by smartecosse