UK cops 'to only observe'

[JLCrab]

Would you accept that maybe - just maybe they have screwed the investigation and it's now a face saving exercise - nothing to do with diplomatic protocol?

No -- I expect that the UK government in exchange for allowing Investigative persons to operate on Thai soil will otherwise have strict adherence to diplomatic protocol and does not involve a waiver of diplomatic rights to which both countries have adhered for the last 50 years.

[Bleacher Bum East]

The Vienna Convention of Consular relations (1963) to which both Thailand and UK are signatories/parties states:

Article 55 --Respect for the laws and regulations of the receiving State

1.Without prejudice to their privileges and immunities, it is the duty of all persons enjoying such privileges and immunities to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving State. They also have a duty not to interfere in the internal affairs of the State.

There is no indication by inviting representatives of another country to observe assist, or whatever word you choose in a criminal investigation that the host country has waived this right.

Absolutely riveting information, however if there is nothing to hide and everything was above board would this need to be spelt out so loudly and reiterated over and over again by all and sundry - most of whom have nothing what-so-ever to do with this side of politics / procedures or co-operation between civilised (so called) countries.

Because that has been diplomatic protocol for 50 years and I do not see it changing whether for this case or any other. As to "While in Thailand, they can perform the role I am speaking of with or without the cooperation of the Thai police", there will probably be nothing that the UK contingent can do while on Thai soil without the cooperation of the Thai police ... and the UK folks probably will expect nothing else.

Maybe I used a poor choice of phrases that left the wrong impression: I wasn't trying to suggest that the UK investigators do anything surreptitious behind the backs of the Thai government, and definitely not anything against the law of Thailand. Just that they perform the perfectly legal role that any outside PI could perform, without participating or in any way interfering with the Thai police, prosecutors, judicial process or affairs of state. How much access to evidence and police procedures they receive will of course be dependent on Thai police cooperation, and how much cooperation the UK team receives will depend on how lightly or heavily they tread once in Thailand (I predict lightly). That can all be taken into account when forming their ultimate opinion of the case. In addition, of course diplomacy and politics will play a huge role in what is or is not announced to the public at the end of the day. They won't do anything to publicly embarrass the Thai government unless they uncover a huge miscarriage of justice that cannot be ignored. But the summons of the Thai diplomat and the fact that they raised this issue to the level of Cameron bringing it up publicly at an international conference, strongly implies that the UK investigation is already underway, and some discrepancies may have already been found (this of course is purely my own speculation based on what we publicly know).

We will see how it all plays out.

[BoristheBlade]

JohnThailand...listen me out...just say the General did order a re-investigation, and a cover up was found to have occured......A new investigation was instigated and the real murders, rapists found, tried and convicted.

Do you think the General's reputation and that of the Thai people would sky rocket?>????? Do you think the reputation of the General and his junta Government would increase considerably in the eyes of the Thai population?

[JohnThailandJohn]

On a separate point when i saw the picture of the damage done to Hannah face the first day I said to my wife this not just rape and murder this was the work of someone who hated her or hated women. It happens sadly all the time rape and murder but how often do you see the victim disfigured like she was. This is not a crime of passion this was a crime of hatred thats why I don't believe 2 small guys from Burma having a beer and playing music on the beach did this because they fancied some fun? But one thing I am glad of is this has not gone away like the business people on KT wanted and talking to you some times money can't buy you everything maybe you will find out soon!

While I understand the thought that this may have seemed more of a personal attack based on the pictures, please don't confuse rape with a crime of passion as it is not. Rape is an act of violence. The news is full of rapists who killed their victims and almost always in a violent way. Rapists don't rape women because they like them. Rape all by itself is a brutal assault against a women and even without the murders this was extra brutal as she was raped by multiple people.

Comparing rape to a crime of passion is no different than the bizarre comment made about women who aren't attractive should only wear bathing suits.

Edited October 20, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[heyexile]

The Thai police as a whole could learn a lot from allowing police from the UK to not only help with the investigation but to train the Thai police on how to be a police officer period! Bring in the Brits and let them have at it with the Thai police department. Maybe lose face but help to save a nation.

The RTA already gets training from the US.

Not at present. Not since the coup.

AFAIK only one training was cancelled for the RTP

Not according to the Guardian, USA Today, Al Jazeera etc

"Joint military and police training exercises cancelled" Joint as in US-Thai.

BTW No dna material sent to Singapore. Another disinformation from high rankers at head of police.

We cant prove a negative, but you should be easily able to prove a positive, if you still believe the police.

[JLCrab]

To #607 above: This is from the UK Embassy - Bangkok website --

They (British embassy, commission or consulate) won’t be able to: collect evidence or investigate crimes

I do not think whatever agreement is reached between the UK and Thai governments will be a total abrogation of that statement.

[jdinasia]

The Thai police as a whole could learn a lot from allowing police from the UK to not only help with the investigation but to train the Thai police on how to be a police officer period! Bring in the Brits and let them have at it with the Thai police department. Maybe lose face but help to save a nation.

The RTA already gets training from the US.

Not at present. Not since the coup.

AFAIK only one training was cancelled for the RTP

Not according to the Guardian, USA Today, Al Jazeera etc

"Joint military and police training exercises cancelled" Joint as in US-Thai.

BTW No dna material sent to Singapore. Another disinformation from high rankers at head of police.

We cant prove a negative, but you should be easily able to prove a positive, if you still believe the police.

We will see in court if they sent anything to Singapore.

I am personally aware of training happening on some levels. Such as CULP. I am only aware of one police training being cancelled. I will ask around tmw to see if any other police trainings were also cancelled. (CULP has a FB page)

[dieseldave1951]

you need to understand there is no question about legal authority the word is ASSIST

The only place that British police have jurisdiction is in Britain. They have no legal authority at all in Thailand.

Imagine the hoo haa if a Thai was murdered in the UK and the Thai government expected expected the UK to surrender all legal authority to a couple of visiting members of the RTP.

[marcusd]

I think with the 100,000 signatures on a petition in England, Cameron actually INVOLVED and the REQUEST for the English police to be involved...hmmm... I do not think this one is going to be brushed aside so fast even with THAINESS and a smile.

Same number of people signed a petition in the US to Obama to have Justin Bieber deported.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/18/deport-justin-bieber_n_5176202.html

ah yes, but he did not commit murder and there have been many other situations in Thailand raising eyebrows overseas. This is not something these poor people can turn up at court to argue. Their young lives are lost.

The situation with Beiber is trivial in comparison

[BoristheBlade]

JohnThailandJohn Re #609 please can you answer

[jdinasia]

you need to understand there is no question about legal authority the word is ASSIST

The only place that British police have jurisdiction is in Britain. They have no legal authority at all in Thailand.

Imagine the hoo haa if a Thai was murdered in the UK and the Thai government expected expected the UK to surrender all legal authority to a couple of visiting members of the RTP.

See the OP. Or even the title of this thread.

[bertty]

On a separate point when i saw the picture of the damage done to Hannah face the first day I said to my wife this not just rape and murder this was the work of someone who hated her or hated women. It happens sadly all the time rape and murder but how often do you see the victim disfigured like she was. This is not a crime of passion this was a crime of hatred thats why I don't believe 2 small guys from Burma having a beer and playing music on the beach did this because they fancied some fun? But one thing I am glad of is this has not gone away like the business people on KT wanted and talking to you some times money can't buy you everything maybe you will find out soon!

While I understand the thought that this may have seemed more of a personal attack based on the pictures, please don't confuse rape with a crime of passion as it is not. Rape is an act of violence. The news is full of rapists who killed their victims and almost always in a violent way. Rapists don't rape women because they like them. Rape all by itself is a brutal assault against a women and even without the murders this was extra brutal as she was raped by multiple people.

Comparing rape to a crime of passion is no different than the bizarre comment made about women who aren't attractive should only wear bathing suits.

Well there you have it JTJ knows all there is to know about rape, and is more than happy to defend those who committee such a crime.

How many more have there been ?

[Bleacher Bum East]

To #607 above: This is from the UK Embassy - Bangkok website --

They (British embassy, commission or consulate) won’t be able to: collect evidence or investigate crimes

I do not think whatever agreement is reached between the UK and Thai governments will be a total abrogation of that statement.

Is it this statement that you are talking about? Or did you see something more specific to this case?

What consulates cannot do for you

Although we try to help British nationals in a wide range of situations, we cannot:

. . . .

• give you legal advice, investigate crimes or carry out searches for missing people, although we can give you details of people who may be able to help you in these cases

[Fred Flinstone]

The Thai PM has almost admitted to a cover up

[JohnThailandJohn]

JohnThailand...listen me out...just say the General did order a re-investigation, and a cover up was found to have occured......A new investigation was instigated and the real murders, rapists found, tried and convicted.

Do you think the General's reputation and that of the Thai people would sky rocket?>????? Do you think the reputation of the General and his junta Government would increase considerably in the eyes of the Thai population?

No, What do you think his reputation would be if the police charged a rich Thai kid with the rape and murders and the General ordered a re-investigation and they then charged two immigrant workers?

Stupid questions in regards to reputations .. this case is not going to change the reputation or view of Thailand people have and the criminal case is not about and should not be about the General's reputation. Any rational person knows less developed nations with extremely low paid police are going to be more corrupt. Some act shocked by this while most just accept it.

This case will be closed and forgot for the most part in the near future ... even bigger deaths events and mysteries have occurred in Thailand over the last years and outside of a few posts here and there on Thaivisa, the rest of the world has long moved on.

Edited October 20, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[PaPiPuPePo]

On a separate point when i saw the picture of the damage done to Hannah face the first day I said to my wife this not just rape and murder this was the work of someone who hated her or hated women. It happens sadly all the time rape and murder but how often do you see the victim disfigured like she was. This is not a crime of passion this was a crime of hatred thats why I don't believe 2 small guys from Burma having a beer and playing music on the beach did this because they fancied some fun?

Well put and I have been very annoyed by the mis-representation of this as a crime of passion by people who should know better, from the start. This was a vicious hate crime perpetrated by sickos of the most satanic sort. And since it was likely not someone who knew her well enough to have developed a hatred for her (never mind she was apparently a lovely young woman), then it was either rage at her (for being rebuffed?) or a general and extreme hatred, as you said.

[BoristheBlade]

I just don't understand the Generals attitude.

If the two Burmese guys did it, great, 2 violent psychopaths are off the streets of Thailand, and Thailand will be a lot safer for it.

If they did not, and the majority of the watching world seems to believe they did not, why not open up the investigation? Why not let British Police, FBI , whoever come and check the evidence etc.

Why General, it's very simple. If the RTP investigation is a perfect as reported, show the world. Show the world how good the RTP are.

Missing CCTV footage, contaminated crime scene, false alibis etc etc....is that really a perfect investigation General?

If the real murderers are on the loose, maybe the next victim could be Thai and not a worthless ferrang, because that's the way most ex pats and tourists feel in Thailand, worthless and expendable.

The Thai PM has almost admitted to a cover up

[BoristheBlade]

Rubbish John.

The quote about beautiful women and bikinis was insulting and hugely damaging to the General and more importantly to the people of Thailand, who ARE far more important than the General.

Murders investigations are not about wealth, influence, colour or creed, they are about justice and the protection of the innocent.

JohnThailand...listen me out...just say the General did order a re-investigation, and a cover up was found to have occured......A new investigation was instigated and the real murders, rapists found, tried and convicted.

Do you think the General's reputation and that of the Thai people would sky rocket?>????? Do you think the reputation of the General and his junta Government would increase considerably in the eyes of the Thai population?

No, What do you think his reputation would be if the police charged a rich Thai kid with the rape and murders and the General ordered a re-investigation and they then charged two immigrant workers?

Stupid questions in regards to reputations .. this case is not going to change the reputation or view of Thailand people have and the criminal case is not about and should not be about the General's reputation. Any rational person knows less developed nations with extremely low paid police are going to be more corrupt. Some act shocked by this while most just accept it.

This case will be closed and forgot for the most part in the near future ... even bigger deaths events and mysteries have occurred in Thailand over the last years and outside of a few posts here and there on Thaivisa, the rest of the world has long moved on.

[heyexile]

Wow, what about reports coming in about this A/C bar. Apparently another murder there new years eve 02/03. Multiple, multiple reports of druggings. Allegedly they are responsible for burning down another competitors bar for being too successful and then running the owners off of the island.

Do some Google searches people. The place is out of control. These people need to be stopped. Some people on the island are now even posting names and photos of the guilty people. You just couldn't make the horror stories up. Its inhumane. Forget these 2 British kids. A world run investigation into every death on the island needs to be done. Simply shocking and to think these people from the A/C bar have been allowed to get away with it for so long... No wonder they didn't try to hide the bodies. This is everyday business for them. If the truth ever comes out the islands are finished and the many people involved should b in jail for life, police included. How can human beings in positions of power employed to serve and protect allow this to happen. Its just not human.

7 Reviews all within a week ago ... going back further they look to average about 3 reviews a month. Consider only few people post to Trip Adviser, sounds like tourism must be doing great on Koh Tao despite it being low season in Thailand.

Go look at the KT forum on Trip advisor and see tread 'Is Kho Toa still open ' and see all the censorship . I questioned this with Trip advisor and they say 2 members can object to a comment and its with drawn. The was a link from a UK government site warning about dangers on the island that was withdrawn

and taken down. I don't think you need Scotland yard to figure whats going on there as one business leader on KT stated' we need damage limitations to protect the island '.

On a separate point when i saw the picture of the damage done to Hannah face the first day I said to my wife this not just rape and murder this was the work of someone who hated her or hated women. It happens sadly all the time rape and murder but how often do you see the victim disfigured like she was. This is not a crime of passion this was a crime of hatred thats why I don't believe 2 small guys from Burma having a beer and playing music on the beach did this because they fancied some fun? But one thing I am glad of is this has not gone away like the business people on KT wanted and talking to you some times money can't buy you everything maybe you will find out soon!

Tripadvisor KT Forum: to Blowin

I posted links to UK Gov travel advisories, all removed. So I started a new topic "Ko Tao safe to go?" It was locked within 3 days. GT ADVENTURES is a company with business interests on KT. All their "yes go, it`s safe" posts remain. Have complained to TA to no avail. You will now have to search very hard to find my topic at all.

Apologies for clumsy edit, had exceeded quoted blocks limit.

[PaPiPuPePo]

The news is full of rapists who killed their victims and almost always in a violent way.

Comparing rape to a crime of passion is no different than the bizarre comment made about women who aren't attractive should only wear bathing suits.

I'm no more an expert on this than I expect you are, but I'm not so sure so many murders by rapists are anywhere as violent as this one. Not to diminish at all the suffering of any such victim, but when I've read of such cases it seems often the victim is strangled. Again, horrible regardless, but this case is remarkable in the brutality of the murder, the extremity of the violence to Hannah. So in this way it is IMO even worse than other such cases.

As to the second, one can see the viewpoint of conservative Thais, because a lot of young faring do go way outside the bounds Of course, their dollars are welcomed, and there seems to be no attempt at an informational campaign to educate visitors on what is desirable behavior. Add to that (greatly), there's no indication this is at all germane to the present case, and it reeks of blaming the victim. And yet, this is a widely held view, not just in Thailand, so I don't think whoever said it should be singled out for voicing it.

[Bleacher Bum East]

The debate about the role that the UK government can and should play in the investigation of Hannah and David's death is a legitimate one involving many considerations by all involved. And it is not an easy black-and-white issue to resolve, because what ultimately happens has many ramifications outside this particular case.

My opinion is that the UK investigators should essentially act as private investigators on behalf of Hannah and David's family, who are UK citizens. Here is why:

Many parties (everyone actually) have an interest in bringing Hannah and David's attackers and killers to justice, but the supreme interest is held by their families.

If Hanna and David's families wanted to do so, they could hire a private investigator to collect and examine evidence, search for and interview witnesses, and review any evidence the Thai police was either willing to provide access to or made public.

The PI would have no legal authority to require cooperation from witnesses, search premises, etc., and definitely not to prosecute the case. The PI would be legally acting in a private (non-Thai government or law enforcement) capacity on behalf of the families.

When finished obtaining and analyzing the available evidence, the PI could report back to the families exactly what evidence it has collected and reviewed, as well as what evidence it has not had access to. It could also offer an expert opinion on the quality of that evidence, discrepancies and conflicts contained in the evidence, as well as on police procedures in gathering, handling and analyzing evidence.

The PI could also provide its expert opinion, based on the evidence it has seen and analyzed, as to who committed the crimes (if the PI believes it has sufficient proof to say beyond a reasonable doubt) and who did not commit the crimes (again, if sufficient proof is in hand beyond a reasonable doubt). In the alternative, if the PI does not have sufficient proof to say, in his or her expert opinion, who did or did not commit the crimes beyond a reasonable doubt, the report can state that also.

The PI could then offer all of the evidence it has collected as an independent investigator to both the prosecution and the defense, to use as they wish. Whether it aids the prosecution or the defense should not be of concern, because they are only interested in justice, finding the real killers.

Finally, the PI could observe the trial and compare what is offered as evidence in court with what they discovered in their own investigation. Then they could report back to the families as to whether what went into either convicting or exonerating the accused matched with what they discovered, and deliver an expert opinion as to whether it was a fair verdict, one way or the other.

In this particular case, the UK government's team of investigators can do all of the things I've described above. They can, in essence, be acting as private investigators on behalf of Hannah and David's family, who are citizens of the UK. And they can do so without "participating" or "interfering" with the Thai police, prosecution or judiciary.

If everyone involved truly wants to make sure the real killers and rapists, whoever they are, are convicted and punished, then there is no reason why they would not welcome the UK team to perform this role.

In theory, the Thai police and government have the second-most supreme interest in bringing the killers to justice. Because they are charged with protecting their citizens and foreigners visiting Thailand. So if the real killers aren't caught, that means they are still free to do this again. Given that, you would think they would welcome any assistance they can get, as long as it does not interfere or usurp their own role.

I believe that what I've suggested is the best way to balance all the interests and allow that to happen.

Interesting discussion, but doomed to failure before it would even be considered in the case of the police - it would be deemed to "usurp their own role".

Maybe ... but the UK team has already been given permission to come and "observe", so they have their foot in the door. While in Thailand, they can perform the role I am speaking of with or without the cooperation of the Thai police. If the Thai police allow them full access to the suspects, witnesses, evidence, etc. in a transparent fashion, then that can be included in the report and the families can draw positive conclusions regarding the transparency of the investigation. If they are given partial access, then what they were allowed to review and what they were not allowed to review can be reported on. If the UK team is actively stonewalled, then that can be included in the report and conclusions can be drawn as well.

No.

Overstepping the duties agreed to diplomatically is not something that they can do.

I agree with that, and didn't mean to suggest they should do so ... see my response below in #607.

If it is outside of those bounds, you are correct they cannot.

Whether there is or will be an actual MOU regarding what they will and won't be allowed to do, I have no idea.

If there is, they will need to stay within it ... my hope is that it would allow what I have suggested.

The public statements by the Thai and UK governments aren't in concert right now, so I don't think anybody knows what the actual diplomatic agreement is at this point.

[PaPiPuPePo]

This case will be closed and forgot for the most part in the near future ... even bigger deaths events and mysteries have occurred in Thailand over the last years and outside of a few posts here and there on Thaivisa, the rest of the world has long moved on.

Aside from being completely inaccurate--aside from a few posts?….the rest of the world?--this is so utterly inappropriate. You've posted some crassly inappropriate things here but this one takes the cake.

Add to that you're one of the most interested people in the world, so it would appear. Regardless, this is not going to go away, as much as you'd like that.

[JLCrab]

The following is from the 300+ page UK Murder Investigation Manual, 2006.

8.2 DEATH OF A UK CITIZEN ABROAD

Where a UK citizen dies in suspicious or violent circumstances abroad it will be investigated by the appropriate authorities in that country. There are, however, circumstances where a UK police force may become involved. These are:

• A request for assistance from the family of a person who dies abroad;

8.2.1 ASSISTING THE FAMILY

Police are sometimes asked by relatives to help them establish the circumstances in which a family member died abroad, or to establish the whereabouts of a family member who has gone missing abroad. These circumstances can arise where the family are dissatisfied with the investigation into the death, or where contact has suddenly ceased between the family member and their relatives. The FCO serves as a gateway for relatives who express such concerns. The role of SIOs in these cases is one of facilitating communication between the family and the FCO, rather than to actively investigate the matter.

8.2.3 CONDUCTING HOMICIDE ENQUIRIES THROUGH THE FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE

8.2.3.1 General Principles

UK police officers have no power to conduct investigations abroad. Investigative activity in another country can only take place with the cooperation of the country concerned. The FCO will provide liaison and coordination with foreign police and government agencies where an allegation is made to a UK police force that the death of a UK citizen abroad is a homicide.

Edited October 20, 2014 by JLCrab

[Bleacher Bum East]

The Thai police as a whole could learn a lot from allowing police from the UK to not only help with the investigation but to train the Thai police on how to be a police officer period! Bring in the Brits and let them have at it with the Thai police department. Maybe lose face but help to save a nation.

The RTA already gets training from the US.

Not at present. Not since the coup.

AFAIK only one training was cancelled for the RTP

Not according to the Guardian, USA Today, Al Jazeera etc

"Joint military and police training exercises cancelled" Joint as in US-Thai.

BTW No dna material sent to Singapore. Another disinformation from high rankers at head of police.

We cant prove a negative, but you should be easily able to prove a positive, if you still believe the police.

We will see in court if they sent anything to Singapore.

I am personally aware of training happening on some levels. Such as CULP. I am only aware of one police training being cancelled. I will ask around tmw to see if any other police trainings were also cancelled. (CULP has a FB page)

Let's assume the Thai police do still get some training from the US.

Even so, what does that demonstrate JD?

Are you saying that because some Thai police were trained by US police in some fashion about some matters, that you assume the investigators handling the Koh Tao murder investigation were trained in and performed to the standards of US law enforcement? That you assume the gathering, handling and analysis of evidence met those standards? That the interviewing of witnesses and suspects met those standards?

If they were trained to US standards and did not meet them, or did not call in the trained personnel that could meet them, does that make their handling of the situation better, worse, or the same as if they hadn't been trained by the US at all?

How do you relate any US training of some Thai police to the case at hand?

[jdinasia]

No. You are creating a straw man fallacy again.

I was dealing with the claim that all such training ended and other statements that such training should occur.

You are the one suggesting I meant something else.

[blowin]

On a separate point when i saw the picture of the damage done to Hannah face the first day I said to my wife this not just rape and murder this was the work of someone who hated her or hated women. It happens sadly all the time rape and murder but how often do you see the victim disfigured like she was. This is not a crime of passion this was a crime of hatred thats why I don't believe 2 small guys from Burma having a beer and playing music on the beach did this because they fancied some fun? But one thing I am glad of is this has not gone away like the business people on KT wanted and talking to you some times money can't buy you everything maybe you will find out soon!

While I understand the thought that this may have seemed more of a personal attack based on the pictures, please don't confuse rape with a crime of passion as it is not. Rape is an act of violence. The news is full of rapists who killed their victims and almost always in a violent way. Rapists don't rape women because they like them. Rape all by itself is a brutal assault against a women and even without the murders this was extra brutal as she was raped by multiple people.

Comparing rape to a crime of passion is no different than the bizarre comment made about women who aren't attractive should only wear bathing suits.

I am sorry john maybe I am not as intelligent as you and express myself as fluently. So I will rephrase the sentence as a crime as violence not passion please excuse my wording.

[jdinasia]

The debate about the role that the UK government can and should play in the investigation of Hannah and David's death is a legitimate one involving many considerations by all involved. And it is not an easy black-and-white issue to resolve, because what ultimately happens has many ramifications outside this particular case.

My opinion is that the UK investigators should essentially act as private investigators on behalf of Hannah and David's family, who are UK citizens. Here is why:

Many parties (everyone actually) have an interest in bringing Hannah and David's attackers and killers to justice, but the supreme interest is held by their families.

If Hanna and David's families wanted to do so, they could hire a private investigator to collect and examine evidence, search for and interview witnesses, and review any evidence the Thai police was either willing to provide access to or made public.

The PI would have no legal authority to require cooperation from witnesses, search premises, etc., and definitely not to prosecute the case. The PI would be legally acting in a private (non-Thai government or law enforcement) capacity on behalf of the families.

When finished obtaining and analyzing the available evidence, the PI could report back to the families exactly what evidence it has collected and reviewed, as well as what evidence it has not had access to. It could also offer an expert opinion on the quality of that evidence, discrepancies and conflicts contained in the evidence, as well as on police procedures in gathering, handling and analyzing evidence.

The PI could also provide its expert opinion, based on the evidence it has seen and analyzed, as to who committed the crimes (if the PI believes it has sufficient proof to say beyond a reasonable doubt) and who did not commit the crimes (again, if sufficient proof is in hand beyond a reasonable doubt). In the alternative, if the PI does not have sufficient proof to say, in his or her expert opinion, who did or did not commit the crimes beyond a reasonable doubt, the report can state that also.

The PI could then offer all of the evidence it has collected as an independent investigator to both the prosecution and the defense, to use as they wish. Whether it aids the prosecution or the defense should not be of concern, because they are only interested in justice, finding the real killers.

Finally, the PI could observe the trial and compare what is offered as evidence in court with what they discovered in their own investigation. Then they could report back to the families as to whether what went into either convicting or exonerating the accused matched with what they discovered, and deliver an expert opinion as to whether it was a fair verdict, one way or the other.

In this particular case, the UK government's team of investigators can do all of the things I've described above. They can, in essence, be acting as private investigators on behalf of Hannah and David's family, who are citizens of the UK. And they can do so without "participating" or "interfering" with the Thai police, prosecution or judiciary.

If everyone involved truly wants to make sure the real killers and rapists, whoever they are, are convicted and punished, then there is no reason why they would not welcome the UK team to perform this role.

In theory, the Thai police and government have the second-most supreme interest in bringing the killers to justice. Because they are charged with protecting their citizens and foreigners visiting Thailand. So if the real killers aren't caught, that means they are still free to do this again. Given that, you would think they would welcome any assistance they can get, as long as it does not interfere or usurp their own role.

I believe that what I've suggested is the best way to balance all the interests and allow that to happen.

Interesting discussion, but doomed to failure before it would even be considered in the case of the police - it would be deemed to "usurp their own role".

Maybe ... but the UK team has already been given permission to come and "observe", so they have their foot in the door. While in Thailand, they can perform the role I am speaking of with or without the cooperation of the Thai police. If the Thai police allow them full access to the suspects, witnesses, evidence, etc. in a transparent fashion, then that can be included in the report and the families can draw positive conclusions regarding the transparency of the investigation. If they are given partial access, then what they were allowed to review and what they were not allowed to review can be reported on. If the UK team is actively stonewalled, then that can be included in the report and conclusions can be drawn as well.

No.

Overstepping the duties agreed to diplomatically is not something that they can do.

I agree with that, and didn't mean to suggest they should do so ... see my response below in #607.

If it is outside of those bounds, you are correct they cannot.

Whether there is or will be an actual MOU regarding what they will and won't be allowed to do, I have no idea.

If there is, they will need to stay within it ... my hope is that it would allow what I have suggested.

The public statements by the Thai and UK governments aren't in concert right now, so I don't think anybody knows what the actual diplomatic agreement is at this point.

"with or without the cooperation..."??

Edit -- did I miss a public statement from the UK? The only thing I have seen is an off the record comment by an anonymous source.

Edited October 20, 2014 by jdinasia

[heyexile]

The Thai police as a whole could learn a lot from allowing police from the UK to not only help with the investigation but to train the Thai police on how to be a police officer period! Bring in the Brits and let them have at it with the Thai police department. Maybe lose face but help to save a nation.

The RTA already gets training from the US.

Not at present. Not since the coup.

AFAIK only one training was cancelled for the RTP

Not according to the Guardian, USA Today, Al Jazeera etc

"Joint military and police training exercises cancelled" Joint as in US-Thai.

BTW No dna material sent to Singapore. Another disinformation from high rankers at head of police.

We cant prove a negative, but you should be easily able to prove a positive, if you still believe the police.

We will see in court if they sent anything to Singapore.

I am personally aware of training happening on some levels. Such as CULP. I am only aware of one police training being cancelled. I will ask around tmw to see if any other police trainings were also cancelled. (CULP has a FB page)

Thank you for the `IF` at last Who is the `we` you refer to? Would that be you and a wealthy Thai land owning family. What would I be in court for? I doubt the EU would agree to extradition for doubting the veracity of some police statement. IF it is shown inconclusively that any commercial or institutional lab in Singapore has been used, then I would be the first to apologize.

I seem to be receiving a few veiled threats on here recently.

PS Maybe you used "we" as in "I", as some royals do.,

[jdinasia]

The Thai police as a whole could learn a lot from allowing police from the UK to not only help with the investigation but to train the Thai police on how to be a police officer period! Bring in the Brits and let them have at it with the Thai police department. Maybe lose face but help to save a nation.

The RTA already gets training from the US.

Not at present. Not since the coup.

AFAIK only one training was cancelled for the RTP

Not according to the Guardian, USA Today, Al Jazeera etc

"Joint military and police training exercises cancelled" Joint as in US-Thai.

BTW No dna material sent to Singapore. Another disinformation from high rankers at head of police.

We cant prove a negative, but you should be easily able to prove a positive, if you still believe the police.

We will see in court if they sent anything to Singapore.

I am personally aware of training happening on some levels. Such as CULP. I am only aware of one police training being cancelled. I will ask around tmw to see if any other police trainings were also cancelled. (CULP has a FB page)

Thank you for the `IF` at last Who is the `we` you refer to? Would that be you and a wealthy Thai land owning family. What would I be in court for? I doubt the EU would agree to extradition for doubting the veracity of some police statement. IF it is shown inconclusively that any commercial or institutional lab in Singapore has been used, then I would be the first to apologize.

I seem to be receiving a few veiled threats on here recently.

PS Maybe you used "we" as in "I", as some royals do.,

No I used "we" as in all of us; when the trial takes place.

[kcirtapyelrah]

The Thai police as a whole could learn a lot from allowing police from the UK to not only help with the investigation but to train the Thai police on how to be a police officer period! Bring in the Brits and let them have at it with the Thai police department. Maybe lose face but help to save a nation.

The RTA already gets training from the US.

The US also do training with Thai police and Thais get the FBI involved in cases they need help but of course this doesn't match with the reason they don't get training from the UK or ask them to help with this case because of losing face.

But apparently none of this matter since Thailand may not exist much longer without the UK training of Thai police in order to help save the nation..

Edit: No to mention UK police already have (and possibly continue to) provide training to Thai police.

All this tuition to no avail, the Thai police are not very receptive are they.