Samui For Sale

[Simmo]

If you look at the webpage source.

In the header.

<META NAME="AUTHOR" CONTENT="NADIA HENDERSON">

[Charma]

If you look at the webpage source.

In the header.

<META NAME="AUTHOR" CONTENT="NADIA HENDERSON">

Quick search for that name does not reveal anyone with connections to Thailand (although I must admit, I did not look very hard!). Maybe they used a western web author.

Highdiver:

"The site samui for sale is a must read for all farangs!!! I dont know who is behind it an it does not realy matter. This is the only web site that has genuine information".

I agree that the site is a must read for all Farangs. But the site contains lots of legal "opinion" that is mixed in with the factual content and quotes from various legislative texts. Therefore, IMO it would be very important to know who is giving that opinion and what their motives are. If they genuine in looking out for the interests of foreigners in Thailand, why is the site cloaked in such mystery? They state that the information has been verified by two independent and verified Thai attorneys, but do not say who they are. Why not? Are they scared?

Another interesting aspect is that there opinion and commentary clearly states that company freehold purchase is not legal. Yet they then have the option on the site to purchase legal documents relating to company set up and land purchase.

This site may be doing a great service and providing some sound advice and information. But I still want to know who and why.

On a secondary note, I am aware of one TV member who has recently purchased land in Samui via a company set up. The purchase was dealt with by the Samui land office with no apparent problems. However, the memeber does have a contingency plan if any of this crackdwon stuff ever materialises!

edit for typo

Edited August 1, 2006 by Charma

[Khun Jean]

In Thailand there are 3 types of businesses. Sole proprietorships, partnerships, and limited companies.

Did anyone try the partnership route for buying land. I not researched it yet.

It looks to be a much easier setup. It is still 49% foreigner and 51% Thai. The "voting" rights will be more difficult but i think you can write a contract between both partners that big decisions have to be unanimous. Maybe it is a way if you don't feel comfortable with the partner owning the land 100%. At least this way you have 49%, and no hassle with (nominees) shareholders,meetings,etc..

[highdiver]

In Thailand there are 3 types of businesses. Sole proprietorships, partnerships, and limited companies.

Did anyone try the partnership route for buying land. I not researched it yet.

It looks to be a much easier setup. It is still 49% foreigner and 51% Thai. The "voting" rights will be more difficult but i think you can write a contract between both partners that big decisions have to be unanimous. Maybe it is a way if you don't feel comfortable with the partner owning the land 100%. At least this way you have 49%, and no hassle with (nominees) shareholders,meetings,etc..

A partnership is a joint venture or a business partnership , even if it is a registered partenrship it is not a seperate entity from its share holders.

The whole point of a company is to give birth to a thai entity that under the law can own land.

a partenrship is not an entity. As such it can not own land in thailand.

If you set up a true company that actually has income and expenses and the thai share holders can explain the origin of the capital then there is no problems.

[SamuiJens]

I think that whoever is behind the $amui for $ale link i$n't $tupid, but very $mart, and the more you discu$$ the better for them-Also it'$ down home clean, not like your normal ads for Lawyer$ or Land & Home $ale$ what-$o-evere. If you want $amui $old off keep up the debat! More will read it and think, ahh thi$ i$ the right people to deal with (BKK Lawyer$) etc.

[Khun Jean]

At least they are telling it straight.

No more "Company no ploblem", "30+30+30 lease no ploblem" and "mai pen rai" or other evasive answers on important issues.

It is almost required reading, you will have a good starting point to make decisions.

[SamuiJens]

Khun Jean,

Right, Im with you, IF it's a legit site and not a clever advertising ploy. Remember it costs $ to have a site Like this put up and I don't beleive its been put out by a disgrunteld person out of the GOODNESS OFF HIS HEART, do YOU? At first I thought It could be a government warning on the problem, which I'd hope it was, but then it would dot gov. So by reasonable"who done it", I have to think it's the links in the site that have ratted together to get the farang by the nose and pull them in! It's a great idea of a site, especially for its valuble info that it intails, but USE with caution! The links I mean!

[Khun Jean]

A partnership is a joint venture or a business partnership , even if it is a registered partenrship it is not a seperate entity from its share holders.

The whole point of a company is to give birth to a thai entity that under the law can own land.

a partenrship is not an entity. As such it can not own land in thailand.

I found this piece in a letter posted by Sunbelt in the property thread.

The practical guidance in the letter referred above shall be applicable to juristic persons (companies and partnerships) applying for acquisition of land with the objective to carry out a real estate business, i.e., buy, sale, rent of land, operation of hotel and resort.

This seems to tell that a partnerships is a seperate juristic entity.

But even if it is not then a partnership still can buy land according to this quote.

I am just starting my research on "partnership" in Thailand. Can you provide me with some material that makes it clear it is not a seperate entity. Or are you talking about liability?

[lannarebirth]

I knew a girl in Mexico named Nadia. Then of course there was the Romaninian gymnast named Nadia, I also note, that there's a regular contributor here at ThaiVisa named Nadia, who dispenses advice with regard to real estate legal matters. Pretty good advice too, from what I can tell.

I

[highdiver]

A partnership is a joint venture or a business partnership , even if it is a registered partenrship it is not a seperate entity from its share holders.

The whole point of a company is to give birth to a thai entity that under the law can own land.

a partenrship is not an entity. As such it can not own land in thailand.

I found this piece in a letter posted by Sunbelt in the property thread.

The practical guidance in the letter referred above shall be applicable to juristic persons (companies and partnerships) applying for acquisition of land with the objective to carry out a real estate business, i.e., buy, sale, rent of land, operation of hotel and resort.

This seems to tell that a partnerships is a seperate juristic entity.

But even if it is not then a partnership still can buy land according to this quote.

I am just starting my research on "partnership" in Thailand. Can you provide me with some material that makes it clear it is not a seperate entity. Or are you talking about liability?

Khun Jean

You are correct in your question. so let be more specific.

A partnership between 2 members is subject to liability as opposed to a limited company that is a different entity then its share holders.

only a Thai entity is allowed by law to own land. As such a prtenrship of 2 Thai enteties is allowed can own land however a partenrship including an alien(farrang) can not as the partnership is not a Thai entity.

[Khun Jean]

Thanks highdiver.

I just read your reply, sorry i missed it before.

It seems not many options are left.

[Dragonman]

Be interested to see Dragonman's opinion of this website.

So what is the hook? they dont appear to be selling anything.

Don't look at Samui Forum too often. I think it's a well written website. Written I believe by our very own Nadia2, who appears too modest to take the credit I rarely disagree with Nadia's posts, except perhaps on usufructs, but then I disagree with Sunbelt also on "servitude security".

As an aside, it is absolutely amazing how much rubbish is spouted on Thai Law Firms websites (80% have blatant inaccuracies). So it is not surprising that foreigners make errors with the law, when some International Firms do not seem to bother to amend their websites when advised of "incorrect information". Save Face presumably.

[Pilchard]

In Thailand there are 3 types of businesses. Sole proprietorships, partnerships, and limited companies.

Did anyone try the partnership route for buying land. I not researched it yet.

It looks to be a much easier setup. It is still 49% foreigner and 51% Thai. The "voting" rights will be more difficult but i think you can write a contract between both partners that big decisions have to be unanimous. Maybe it is a way if you don't feel comfortable with the partner owning the land 100%. At least this way you have 49%, and no hassle with (nominees) shareholders,meetings,etc..

A partnership is a joint venture or a business partnership , even if it is a registered partenrship it is not a seperate entity from its share holders.

The whole point of a company is to give birth to a thai entity that under the law can own land.

a partenrship is not an entity. As such it can not own land in thailand.

If you set up a true company that actually has income and expenses and the thai share holders can explain the origin of the capital then there is no problems.

Highdiver,

I always understood that a registerted Limited Partnership was a seperate legal entity and therefore could purchase land. Is this no longer the case ?

Khun Jean , Did your investigation turn up anything new ?

http://www.asiatradingonline.com/company.htm

Limited Partnership

One or more partner's liability is limited to the amount of investment in the company and the other partner's liability is unlimited. A limited partnership is registered and becomes an independent legal entity. A limited partnership can be managed by an unlimited liability partner. If a limited liability partner manages the organization, liability becomes unlimited. The prime advantage of a limited partnership is that creditors cannot sue individual partners (although they can sue the company as a whole) unless the partnership is dissolved.New partners may only be entered into the partnership with consent of all partners.

[highdiver]

Highdiver,

I always understood that a registerted Limited Partnership was a seperate legal entity and therefore could purchase land. Is this no longer the case ?

Khun Jean , Did your investigation turn up anything new ?

http://www.asiatradingonline.com/company.htm

Limited Partnership

One or more partner's liability is limited to the amount of investment in the company and the other partner's liability is unlimited. A limited partnership is registered and becomes an independent legal entity. A limited partnership can be managed by an unlimited liability partner. If a limited liability partner manages the organization, liability becomes unlimited. The prime advantage of a limited partnership is that creditors cannot sue individual partners (although they can sue the company as a whole) unless the partnership is dissolved.New partners may only be entered into the partnership with consent of all partners.

You are absolutely right.. However Khun Jean was referring to a "partenrship".

a partenrship is not an independant entity.

A registered partnership is not an independant entity.

A registerd limited partenrship is an indipendet legal entity. it is infacto a limited company. and you can see that in the rest of the phrase it is reffered to as a company. As such it is allowed to own land if the entity is infact a true thai entity (51%-49%) with the Thai partenres able to show the source of money for investment and that they do so with the intent of profit and not only to serve as nominees for a farrang.

The whole concept of the company setup was to create a true Thai entity that can own land and be controled by farrang.

This is true for those who are actually intending to run a business. in some cases if your business is big enough you can actually be a forign comapny and get permit to hold land through the BOI.

Smaller companies can set up a thai company and own land but they must be a true company.

If your company is a true comapny with employees a manager and pays bills and taxes and even makes a little profit. then there is no problem. but if the companies only buisness is owning land on behalf a farrang and nothing else it will be deemed an alien and is forbidden to own land.

[Khun Jean]

Khun Jean , Did your investigation turn up anything new ?

Maybe i should explain what we are after first.

It is our intention to own some land and use it as a place to live SOON and use it to make a small business IN THE FUTURE. Think about something small scale.

We would like to own it 50/50 together SOON. (49/51 is ok with me.)

We especially don't want to start a company. I feel a limited company is more suited for larger businesses.

We don't know enough Thai people we trust with shares of our company, if they don't have voting rights then what is the point, just call them nominees (not allowed).

My wifes family will never be objective when things go wrong. We don't like to have meetings, don't want to do more administration then necessary etc. We don't want to do business SOON.

The SOON and IN THE FUTURE is our problem.

The land will probably be a large part of the capital that is needed to do what we want.

We have property in the Netherlands that is also shared among us. Just want to do the same here.

But if it is not 100% legal and enforcable we will never do it. The world is big and there are many nice places.

A partnership, as i understand now it must be a limited partnership between two people, seems a lot easier. That is what i think is best for us.

If something unforeseen happens i still have 49% and my wife a well deserved 51%.

This is what i am trying to find out. It looks like it is possible, but TiT, have to triple check it, and then check it again before making it the best way for us.

Still to early to say something definite, ploughing through many sites and documents.

But not all the time, i want a life too.

We also have 2 children. They both have Thai and Dutch citizenship. This also gives solutions to our "land" problem.

[Santidreamer]

At least they are telling it straight.

No more "Company no ploblem", "30+30+30 lease no ploblem" and "mai pen rai" or other evasive answers on important issues.

It is almost required reading, you will have a good starting point to make decisions.

I have been coming to Thailand for many years I knew frang could not own land, but thought it was possible to use both the 30year perpetual lease and nominee company method.

I find it amazing estate agents and solicitors can so blatantly tell such lies and encourage people to commit fraud with such ease.

I have purchased a plot of land using an established developer (Coconut Land and House at Santi Tani) and a separate house using a firm of international solicitors (Pensits)

Now after reading this thread on a chat room I realise I could well loose all my cash, I am just a little surprised.

I wrote off to The Samui for Sale web site a couple of days ago and had no reply, so either they are not toting for business or have more than they can handle.

So to conform to the law I must find a Thai with money to invest in my house, sounds like mission impossible.

Simply finding one I trust is not good enough because they must have proof of funds, and ripping poeple of is a national sport, so how can you trust them with you house!?

I am left hoping the Thais have no wish to rock the boat with regards to the money we spend on the island (which ultimately seems to be pocketed by Suratani province).

And that the issue of saving face extends to us frang, but my guess is when it comes to saving face it is every nun for himself.

The rules are there are no rules, welcome to Thailand.

[Master of the court]

The surprising thing is how long the site has been up and not been discussed on this forum. It was set up prior to all the latest scandals. There is aan awful lot of information there.

I said in the title that I was intrigued. I still am. The site owner being from the Netherlands is interesting. I think however that the domain is registered in the name of a dutch IT company and therefore not be the person updating the site. Where are they from? There's loads of stuff on the net but I can't speak dutch!

Could be a rather direct attempt to undermine the property market on Samui

Charma, you say you don't speak dutch, no worries, the speak English.

I do speak double dutch when I talk to my wife (or is that pidgin English?)

It seems the dutch connection is merely for the purchase and setting up of the website and that the originators are probably Thai. I have seen a few "spoiler sites" before, but not one with so much information. They are usually set up by disgruntled customers or employees who want to hit back at something. There is a definate anti-foreign purchase theme. Look at the opening line:

"Can foreign nationals safely buy or own land in Thailand? The answer is NO". That is what made me think of KJ. Although they are not quite as vehement as KJ in that they have used the word "safely" in their statements.

I would love to know who they are, particularly as the domain name itself is focused on Samui and this was set up before all the recent publicity. Although it is an attack on foreign purchase in Samui, the principle applies to the whole of Thailand.

Perhaps KJ can fill us in if he gets a response from his congratulatory email?

P.S. Despite posing this question on three previous threads, I have yet to see an answer: Has anyone out there lost property or land whatsoever as a result of the recent "clampdown" frenzy?

OFCOURSE nobody has lost anything.........Thailand is a member of WTO, so they would make a big mistake , if they just went in and took ower somebody property's

[Khun Jean]

OFCOURSE nobody has lost anything.........Thailand is a member of WTO, so they would make a big mistake , if they just went in and took ower somebody property's

Being unable to sell it would be a loss too. If the rules are finally enforced this is bound to happen.

And confiscating property when it was against the law in the first place is not something the WTO would/could argue.

[Master of the court]

OFCOURSE nobody has lost anything.........Thailand is a member of WTO, so they would make a big mistake , if they just went in and took ower somebody property's

Being unable to sell it would be a loss too. If the rules are finally enforced this is bound to happen.

And confiscating property when it was against the law in the first place is not something the WTO would/could argue.

You are right if it just happend for a unlucky farang, but if they have to do , they will have to do it all over Thailand at the same time..........try to imagine that mess and try to imagine if they really want such a mess ??

[Master of the court]

Not enforcing the law does not mean it will not happen. Playing it save, and i especially mean people who invest their retirement money in a home to enjoy their twilight years, not the milionares that buy 40 million baht houses which is pocket change, they should have good laywers to explain the issues.

If you play against the odds, someday it will go bad. Even worse is that most people who buy HAVE NO IDEA that what they are doing is not legal.

Maybe in 5, 10 to 15 years Thailand is not a bananarepublic with wild west principles anymore. Cleaning up their act can have some nasty consequences.

Now if there was nothing for rent at very low prices i can imagine you want to build something for yourself.

A good alternative to putting your money in land/house which is not yours ever, is to keep the money in in the bank and it will make more than enough to cover the rental price for a very long time, probably forever.

In Samui i did my rounds looking for prices of land. When you start talking to Thai people who live there you would be surprised how many are open to a 30 year lease. And not everything upfront but in yearly installments. Would that not be a better option. 7000-10000 baht a month for a nice 1 rai piece of land is easy to find. And paying around 100.000 baht a year for 1 rai is a good deal. You still would have a lot of money left to build the house.

The problem with what is been done sofar is that the ones who will suffer are the ones that bought land and house in good faith. It can be 1 year, 5, 10 years but something will happen and it won't be pretty.

If you want examples, Spain, Greece and Mexico come to mind.

One thing is for sure, the "developers" are long gone, so what do they care. Want to sue a laywer because the advise given made you act against the law, good luck. Ultimately everone is responsible for his own acts. You are supposed to know the law, thats why it is public, for everyone to read when in doubt!

The Thai government will probably give you 180 days to get rid of the property, so losing all your money is probably not going to happen. (This will be the reason it will happen! Nobody loses face!) Getting the same price though might be impossible.

Stick to the law and you will have piece of mind, which a lot of people don't have at the moment. Just look around on this forum, so many messages about people who are worried. Think about the older people who worry the most and how many of those have access to the information available on the internet?

Not nice when you just wanted to have a nice home to spend your time. Paradise can change into a h_ll very quick.

For the people who went in with knowing all the facts, i wish you the best and i hope nothing bad will happen. At least they knew the risks and went in considering the risks. A very small percentage i think.

can you tell me what went wrong some years ago in Pattaya specially, ???? thanks

[Khun Jean]

Lovestruck foreigners that desperately want to stay maybe?

[Master of the court]

Lovestruck foreigners that desperately want to stay maybe?

I mean , many are refrering to something happend in Pattaya some years ago, abou owning properties.......??

[maisbeer2]

I did a lot of research and collecting myself about the law in Thailand. As far is i can see they quote the correct articles. They have a lot more than i found, and all in one place. I copied all the texts and am now reading them and crosschecking it with other references. So far it seems very accurate. Subjects about workpermits, inheretance was not what i looked for before so i have nothing to compare it with yet.

About land laws and leases, i know all about those.

Actually the law IS very clear, it is the laywers -and especially the ones under the influence of real estate agents, that think up all sorts of ways to circumvent it.

I have the feeling some laywers -the good ones (do they exist - just got fed up with all the bad things that happened and wanted to set things straight.

Khun Jean, you write that you copied all the texts. Can you explain how you did this. I am having difficulties with downloading/saving the pages. Did you save the as 'text'or as webpage ? I also tried to print the pages; some can be printed but many can not. Where you able to print them ?

maisbeer2

[Khun Jean]

Khun Jean, you write that you copied all the texts. Can you explain how you did this. I am having difficulties with downloading/saving the pages. Did you save the as 'text'or as webpage ? I also tried to print the pages; some can be printed but many can not. Where you able to print them ?

maisbeer2

maisbeer2,

I use IE6/7. If you have the page in view you can use the menu option file->save as.

Using a "web archive, single file" will save the complete page including pictures.

[ClaudeFeller]

I dont understand why a farang want to buy a piece of land in Ko Samui.

Why not rent a nice house and move to a better place if you dont like it anymore? The market is very customerfriendly in these days, choose your house in the internet while you stay home in UK, NL, USA, whereelse, try to bargain the place you like and keep your money in the sharemarket. 30 years of Lease? The bigger nonsense - can sb tell me one reason to lease a piece of Land?? Whenever you buy something for big money, a Porsche or a villa or a sailingboat, you buy it because you can resell it if you dont need anymore. So what the hel_l is "leasing a property"?? Pure nonsense.

For all these reasons, I dont understand the exciting about foreign-ownership-laws.

Cheers from Nathon,

Claude

[ClaudeFeller]

I dont understand why a farang want to buy a piece of land in Ko Samui.

Why not rent a nice house and move to a better place if you dont like it anymore? The market is very customerfriendly in these days, choose your house in the internet while you stay home in UK, NL, USA, whereelse, try to bargain the place you like and keep your money in the sharemarket. 30 years of Lease? The bigger nonsense - can sb tell me one reason to lease a piece of Land?? Whenever you buy something for big money, a Porsche or a villa or a sailingboat, you buy it because you can resell it if you dont need anymore. So what the hel_l is "leasing a property"?? Pure nonsense.

For all these reasons, I dont understand the exciting about foreign-ownership-laws.

Cheers from Nathon,

Claude