Land Purchase

[ukdog]

We have been offered a small piece of land, (1.5 Rai) well situated and close to my partners family home.

I have a copy of the Chinod, (Spelling). Which shows no ties or loans.

I am being told that we merely need to turn up, along with the sellers at the land office to effect this transaction. The land is to be sold to my Thai partner in her name alone.

The money involved is not huge but I want to know the procedure for such a transaction, and any pitfalls.

Grateful for any advice from someone who has done this before

ukdog

[GuestHouse]

The principal issue is that you personally cannot own the land, so it will need to be placed in the name of your partner.

If you are married you will need to sign a document stating that the land is purchased by your wife/husband with his/her own money and that you have no claim to the land.

There will be some taxes to pay, who pays that taxes is subject to the purchase/sale agreement, so sort that out if you don't want a hidden cost.

All the other issues relate to personal choice:

Do you really want to live there? (Consider what your life might be when you live there)

Is the purchase a significant part of you own personal savings? (Is this purchase limiting other choices?)

Do you want to build on the land (If so how close is it to services Water/Electricity/Telephones/Road Access – Don’t assume you can put a well down for water until you have determined water salt levels).

Do you want to protect your rights to use the land? (If so have you considered leasing).

I personally would not consider settling in the area where my wife’s family are from, not that I have a problem with her family, rather it would place the whole of our/my life under the control and influence of her family – I value my independence.

[ukdog]

Sir Guesthouse,

I must have worded my request poorly

'All' I want to know, is the procedure for acquiring the land, as stated it will be bought in my girls name as it is a gift for her. I have supplied her with the required funds but I am having nothing else to do with it, it will belong to her.

I am told that all that it requires is a visit to the land office by both parties together, to effect the transfer, is that correct?

ukdog

[Rinrada]

In a word.....................err...................Yes

[GuestHouse]

Under those circumstances I would suggest you personally don’t go anywhere near the land office – avoiding the place might avoid extra ‘taxes’.

[ukdog]

Sir Guesthouse,

I have no intention of doing so, I just wanted to be sure the lass knew what she was doing, as she has never done it before.

Sir Rinrada,

I take it that you mean that is all there is to it Thank you.

ukdog

[Rinrada]

As GuestHouse mentioned and you confirmed always best for you and behave in the Chinese manner as a "Gwailo"and take a back seat.....let the Thais deals with each other

We are now looking at buying 3 nice wee bits of land at just over a rai each (full C-plus mooring and fishing rights) and dealing with the owners who i know very well but when it comes to the paperwork/documentation/transfer deeds and registration you wont see me for dust....TRT...

Also sure your GF will be OK in the land office

...its more like a Thai Social Club than an official government office with everyone running about waving their chanodes and a thousand other bits of paper in the air,given each other advice,talking about their next meal and hoping t the same time that the ink in the photocopiers dont run out before shuting time...

To them its all a well ordered and smoth process... they all seem to know what to do.... but for us its...... ..good luck

[Charma]

Did this a few years back. I went to the office, but sat at the back and kept my nose out. All went smoothly apart from one thing....

Of course being Thailand, someone always wants to make a few baht. The guy at the office handling the transfer hinted to my wife that things would go much quicker if a small erm "donation" was made. My wife being a fiery character told him in no uncertain terms where to go. The guy then went on the biggest "go slow" I have ever seen. We sat in that office for the next four hours while he slowly (and I mean really slowly) processed the transfer. There were hardly any other people in the place, but he kept going slow and kept smiling at my wife while he did it. Eventually the transfer was done, cash paid etc.

When we got outside I asked my wife how much he wanted. It was 200 baht!!!

Frankly I would have paid ten times that to get out of there!

[chownah]

I have paid for three pieces of land in three years....all were purchased by my partner (not legally married) I went with her to the land office...stopped off at the bank first to get the cash and take it to the land office where I handed it to my partner but I didn't hang around because it takes a while and no reason to sit for half a day if I don't need to.....so.....I guess the short answer is that yes it can be done all in a few hours and all that is needed (if memory serves me correctly) is that the chanote must be provided by the seller and both the seller and buyer have to have their ID cards and the appropriate fees must be paid and of course as to the payment ....we have always paid cash which gets transfered while sitting right there in the land office after the paperwork is finalized.

One further note....when she buys the land is the time to request and pay for an official survey of the land....seems like it runs around 2000 baht for a 2 or 3 rai parcel....when they do this they will locate the existing markers and replace any that are missing. It sometimes/often/usually takes a month or two before they come to do the survey...they are supposed to notify the abutting property owners that a survey will be done on such and such a date which gives them an opportunity to make sure it is being done properly and to dispute if there is some problem.

Edit: I just talked with my partner and she says that the seller and the buyer also have to bring their house books showing their official place of residence.

Edited July 27, 2006 by chownah

[LoveDaBlues]

So all liens on property in Thailand must be recorded at the Land Office? In the states a Title Company would do the research on a piece of property and issue 'title insurance' on the property which protects the buyer should someone come along with a claim against said property.

My TW just told me that you should/can request a survey before buying the property and the stakes will be confirmed/moved as approiate. Then you will know exactly what you are getting......boundries and of course actual size of the property.

Would there be any reason to use an attorney in this process? I've purchased many parcels in the states and never used an attorney.......but TiT........

[LoveDaBlues]

chownah, when you say you went to the bank to get the cash......I trust you mean a cashier's check and not baht notes......

[pnustedt]

My wife too has bought several properties, before and since we were married.

The procedure is for the vendor and purchaser to go to the land office where the land documents are held, the vendor to takes his copy of the land documents. The land office set of documents are then located at the office and the procedure of altering the names on both sets of documents are then carried out. Both parties need ID, etc. When it is over there is a small charge (or tax) to pay and one copy of the altered document will go to your partner, the other kept at the land office.

As previously stated, marriage does complicate the procedure a bit.

The documents normally have a plan of the plot for sale with marker posts indicated so it is quite easy to check.

Normally in Thailand, cash is preferred. My wife paid a few million baht for one transaction - all in cash!

One thing to beware - despite agreeing the price, the vendor will quite probably try to increase the price on the way to the land office. This has happened a few times with us.

[ukdog]

Sirs Chownah and Pnustedt,

Just what I was looking for, thank you.

This land is really smallish money and yes she will take cash with her. I do have one question though, when they change the Chanote will my partners name, i.e. the new owner's details, be added to the front or the rear of the Chanote?

I will ensure she requests a survey at the time, It has been agreed that any charges will be split 50/50 which I am told is the norm?

Once again thanks for the clarification.

dog

[chownah]

chownah, when you say you went to the bank to get the cash......I trust you mean a cashier's check and not baht notes......

Baht notes on every occassion....nice big bank bound bundles of 1000 baht notes!! Isn't life exciting!!!

P.S. I've never ever seen a check of any sort in Thailand other than those I have received from overseas.

Chownah

[chownah]

Sirs Chownah and Pnustedt,

Just what I was looking for, thank you.

This land is really smallish money and yes she will take cash with her. I do have one question though, when they change the Chanote will my partners name, i.e. the new owner's details, be added to the front or the rear of the Chanote?

I will ensure she requests a survey at the time, It has been agreed that any charges will be split 50/50 which I am told is the norm?

Once again thanks for the clarification.

dog

Ukdog,

I looked at one of our chanotes and the new owner is listed on the back...I couldn't find her name on the front though...I don't think its on the front....remember...its all in Thai script.

We didn't split the charges 50-50 but as long as everyone agrees then it sounds like a good way to go. There are certain things here that are tradtionally paid by each side. The survey I think is not considered part of the usual fees for transfering land title so you will probably be expected to pay for that yourself. I was confident of the size and location of the properties I was buying so I did not call a survey to establish this...I did it to verify the markers which I had already located before going into the sale and to establish some markers that were missing. If you have any doubts about the size or location then you should call a survey before going into the sale because once the sale is done any discrepencies found by a survey after the sale will not nullify the sale and you'll have to just live with it. In my neighborhhod the boundaries are well marked mostly and adjacent owners know where the boundaries are and there is not need to dispute.

[LoveDaBlues]

When I bought my new Fortuner I went to my Thai bank and got a cashier's check for the entire amount. Could not imagine carrying that much cash to the dealership.....

2 million baht = 2,000 notes (1,000 baht notes) Takes a lot of time to count out 2,000 pieces of paper!! Seems safer and simpler to just have a cashier's check from a Thai bank.......

[ukdog]

Sir Chownah,

Thanks, thats what I had been told, but wanted to double check

This plot is marked with small round concrete markers and the land has been raised, so stands out from adjacent land.

I suspect that I will not need the survey, but we will see.

I now feel much more comfortable about dropping the lass off to deal with on her own.

dog

[Nawtilus]

Cashiers cheque is simpler and safer for larger amounts, cash is easier for smaller amounts.

Problem with cashiers cheques here as explained to me in Thailand, is that the owner of the cheque could in fact go and cancel the cheque on the morning of the transfer and you would be none the wiser until you went to deposit it.

That is the problem with doing it the thai way where the transfer and everything happens on the day at the titles office.

Personaly I did it by cheque, paying that is, but when it comes time to sell, i am going to do it a little differently and simply have it stated in the contract that if the cheque is dishonoured, then it has to be reversed and if they have power of attorney here, then use this option to enforce the reversal.

Unfortunately I am not that trusting with these people.

The gentleman I bought some land off basically said to me that he had more to be scared about than me as I could do this to him and he would not know until he cashed the cheque.

There is another way around this and I am going to try it, but it is not simple aas nothing is in this country.

This is the problem with not having lawyers that can be trusted with laws in place, governing laws of trust accounts and escrow accounts and insurance to cover the odd crooked lawyer etc.

But like I said, for small country plots this way of doing it is actually great and as mentioned, stay away from the office if your a farang.

Oh and yes, if there is no registered loans on the title document, apparetnly then there is no claims against the property. Only registered and recorded debts on the title are recognised and enforcable. If anyone tries to claim debt against a property and it is not on the title, supposedly they have no claim and absolutley no chance of claiming anything.

Edited July 28, 2006 by Nawtilus

[Mossfinn]

This is a very good thread, but I was a little surprised at how easy it all seems.

My wife is in the process of looking for some land, found something she likes and I have insisted that a solicitor is involved to ensure all legalities are in place.

Admitedly the solicitor is only a small amount of money but what you have said perhaps it is not necessary.

Are there any pitfalls at all to look out for?

Apart from foreign ownership, debts held on the land, locality of family! etc

Thanks

Moss

[Nawtilus]

If your land is cheap, I would do no more than what is explained here. The day you go to the office, you sign the paperwork, you give them the cash and pay the taxes. It is that simple as your name is exchanged for theirs on the title and it is yours, no arguements.

One thing you can do is to get a copy of the title from the owner, get your missus to take it to the land office and ask around and check its validity and ownership yourself without the owner around.

Secondly write up a contract yourself, depending on how good you are at doing this, try to have it include things that will cover you against any problems, such as forged papers, etc etc as is what is happening in Samui.

Get copies of their ID's copied and signed on the contract document, house papers, anything else they can supply to guarantee what they are telling you is true and correct, otherwise they offer full reversal and refund etc.

But if you can get a lawyer to check it out and write up a basic contract with what you want in it for a few thousand baht up country, then I would do it.

[Dragonman]

Personaly I did it by cheque, paying that is, but when it comes time to sell, i am going to do it a little differently and simply have it stated in the contract that if the cheque is dishonoured, then it has to be reversed and if they have power of attorney here, then use this option to enforce the reversal.

Unfortunately I am not that trusting with these people.

The gentleman I bought some land off basically said to me that he had more to be scared about than me as I could do this to him and he would not know until he cashed the cheque.

There is another way around this and I am going to try it, but it is not simple aas nothing is in this country.

This is the problem with not having lawyers that can be trusted with laws in place, governing laws of trust accounts and escrow accounts and insurance to cover the odd crooked lawyer etc.

But like I said, for small country plots this way of doing it is actually great and as mentioned, stay away from the office if your a farang.

Oh and yes, if there is no registered loans on the title document, apparetnly then there is no claims against the property. Only registered and recorded debts on the title are recognised and enforcable. If anyone tries to claim debt against a property and it is not on the title, supposedly they have no claim and absolutley no chance of claiming anything.

The issue of a cheque for the purchase of anything, with the knowledge that it will not be honoured, is illegal and therefore any contract is void, and in fact fraud charges may follow. The property automatically reverts to the former owner. This has actually been confirmed by the Government, as some people have actually thought that once the Land Office registers it in their name they are safe.

[LoveDaBlues]

Dragonman, your comments make the most sense to me. Methinks someone is passing on something overheard in a bar.

I'm thinking about buying (excuse me; paying for) a piece of land (mainly because the price is so good; found someone needing a 'money fix'). Anyway, I will only pay with cashier's check.

My question to anyone that has RELIABLE knowledge: I understand there is a tax paid when a parcel is sold; how is the tax calculated? Is it a percentage of the purchase price or ......??

Thanks, LDB

Edited July 29, 2006 by LoveDaBlues

[malcolminthemiddle]

When my wife sold her land because the sellers bank was different from hers (BKB vs SCB) and because the banks were in different towns and because the day after the transfer was a long holiday weekend, she insisted upon cash before she would sign over the Chanote.

Mossfin, if the land has no direct access to a public road you need to ensure the necessary servitude access is registered at the time of transfer.

LDB tax is caculated by the land department as a percentage of the government assesed value of the land. The LD will give you a quote before purchasing, can help to make sure you have enough money with you at the time of transfer. Who pays these taxes is a matter of negotiation between buyer and seller and should be recorded within the Land Purchase Areement.

Edited typo

Edited July 29, 2006 by malcolminthemiddle

[Dragonman]

Dragonman, your comments make the most sense to me. Methinks someone is passing on something overheard in a bar.

I'm thinking about buying (excuse me; paying for) a piece of land (mainly because the price is so good; found someone needing a 'money fix'). Anyway, I will only pay with cashier's check.

My question to anyone that has RELIABLE knowledge: I understand there is a tax paid when a parcel is sold; how is the tax calculated? Is it a percentage of the purchase price or ......??

Thanks, LDB

Sunbelt posted a detailed analysis a month or so ago. Check back on threads as it is far too complicated to repeat. The total amount really depends on if the Land Office likes your face, well your wife's that is.

On the subject of Cashier's Checks. Whilst of course this cancellation trick can be done when buying a motorbike, he can hardly pick up the land and do a runner. Although perhaps someone could steal most of any building before you found out.

[Mossfinn]

Thanks all for the replies, my question was a little ambiguous, but still got good replies.

Malcolm I will ask her to check access and the ID Nautilus, although it is further south not NE but the solicitor thing is still quite cheap.

As for writing my own contract, I don't think so on this occasion, maybe next time, but its only a small piece of land anyway.

As an aside and another subjective comment, what do people think of the Maerampuang beach area?

Thanks

Moss

[Mossfinn]

Just another question, when you have bought the land what controls are their for building on it?

Can you go ahead or do you have a Thai version of planning and building controls, this is only a small amount of land so no big building site?

Thanks

Moss

[Nawtilus]

Dragonman......interesting, but then just look what is happening on Samui and what happened in Phuket and has probably happened many times before.

Do you have any referance for this quote anywhere ?? The thing is that this might be fine and great if true, but also remember TIT and also remember that the hassle afterwards would be considerable compared to perhaps some consideration to it beforehand.

Lovedablues....not heard in a bar, simply stated from the person we bought land from and he is the president of a certain countries chamber of commerce and the ceo of the largest steel company around.

So I figure if he says it and states it as a 'possible' concern, maybe some of us might take it as reasonable information. We dont all listen to bar talk like yourself.

[Dragonman]

Dragonman......interesting, but then just look what is happening on Samui and what happened in Phuket and has probably happened many times before.

Do you have any referance for this quote anywhere ?? The thing is that this might be fine and great if true, but also remember TIT and also remember that the hassle afterwards would be considerable compared to perhaps some consideration to it beforehand.

Sorry don't have a quote. (not important enough) Just outlined in my Law Papers that there has been concern enough for the Government to clarify Contract Law for the Layman. Mainly due to the fact that the Land Office will register anything, even if it's illegal. The hint was that if the Land Office registers or records your land it doesn't make it a legal transaction. Anyone having studied Law would already be aware of the "void" or "voidable" status of Contracts. Problems occur where people are buying land, as you are handing over money. If you are selling, and don't receive any money, it is pretty obvious the contract is not fulfilled and hence the status quo is introduced, as in all void contracts ( getting land back is fairly easy, getting money back is not!). However I am sure there are occasions, such as in the case you quote, where some idiot attempts to get one over, unaware he cannot succeed.

[LoveDaBlues]

malcominthemiddle - thanks; exactly the info I was looking for. I'll send the wife and her mom to the LD so we know ahead of time what the taxes will be.

Dragonman - thanks for your input. Your advice/knowledge always appreciated

Nawtilus - don't get your shorts in a wad....only taking a small dig...... Don't really care who the 'cancelled check' info came from....I don't believe it would work....but that's just my opinion and I've been wrong before. LOL I only go into one bar and that's because they make the best hamburger in Udon Thani.....I hardly ever drink myself.

Edited July 30, 2006 by LoveDaBlues

[malcolminthemiddle]

Just another question, when you have bought the land what controls are their for building on it?

Can you go ahead or do you have a Thai version of planning and building controls, this is only a small amount of land so no big building site?

Thanks

Moss

There are procedures to follow before building, although you would never believe it looking around . These include building permits and building laws such as allowing a 4m wide space between a public road and your building boundary line.

The Thai architect you use to draw up your plans should be able to advise and take care of these issues for you.