'Dhammocracy' envisaged by reform group

[Commerce]

So the country will become vegetarian and teetotal?

Considering the stories about drunk monks watching pornos it can't be too bad.

How would Chalerm survive in such a society?

[h90]

Most Thais don't even know what Dhamma is; in fact I don't even know of 1 single person who is not a monk who can read or speak Pali (apart from the brainwashed odd school chant), or has any iota of Dhamma and Buddhism.

Chainarong - appointed on 'merit'? (Freudian slap?) - Merit is only employed after great leaders are looking for a get out clause...

It's never been translated? One cannot follow or even understand Dhamma without being able to read Pali? I don't actually pretend to know what the "devout" factor is with respect to Buddhism in Thailand, but I suspect at least some Thais might find your observation both overstated and a little insulting.

Just curious: what percentage of Thai males still enter the monkhood at some point in their lives? For those that do, their experience as a monk does not include anything to do with discussion of or indoctrination with Dhamma?

A return to such values in public life seems worthy of discussion, but actually making it happen is a little like putting the genie back in the bottle. Probably not going to happen. The theophobes can relax.

Concept and reality are two completely different things.

Part of my work includes staying at temples, teaching Phra and Phramaha.

As for the shaving of head, to go and stay in a temple as a youngster - most of it is image, and little indeed is learnt about Dhamma and its truest principles. It is a show of face, for the record, as is the military service requirement.

I never said it's never been translated - if you want to, the Pali scripture translations are easily found on Google, both in Thai and English.

Questions in return: How many monks do you think don't eat after 12pm midday until next morning? I can give you a hint; zero!

When's the last time you stayed at a wat for a week?

And from all that monks buying the latest graphic cards for their computers, I think they are not in meditation all the time.....

[mikiea]

ha ha ha hohohaha stop it, hehehaha ha please stop it, cant take any more, haha ho ho haha a dhammocracy ? hahahahoheh.. when bad people take a thing away, a void is left behind, that is when "fools rush in " :-)

[RKASA]

Your not poor then - your just a monk that grows rice and kow tows to the few that own everything because surely it would be bad form for you to own anything - not sure how long that will play in Peoria. Maybe try another script.

[wandasloan]

A religious government run by people who thought the yellow-shirt movement was far too moderate and patient, and left it to form other groups.

There's a plan. What could go wrong?

[DrTuner]

So the country will become vegetarian and teetotal?

That's the trend that's starting to show. There are more and more conservative opinions being voiced out and apparently being endorsed by the junta. Should it really take root, time to pack the bags and move on. Just imagine how utterly boring the country could get.

[Thanet]

It's great to see all these "Good People" raising so many valid arguments. A Dhammocracy would perhaps be run by that mad monk Suthep?

At this rate, the NCPO will have good reason to postpone the election for a few more years.

Maybe this is what they want - it's their turn to run the country and they haven't finished feeding yet.

Evidence of "feeding" sent it to the PM. dare ya.

You're ignoring history again. Or are you choosing to believe everything that they say just because the Army's Thaksinite and populist gimmicks give you free dental care?

[tbthailand]

It's great to see all these "Good People" raising so many valid arguments. A Dhammocracy would perhaps be run by that mad monk Suthep?

At this rate, the NCPO will have good reason to postpone the election for a few more years.

Maybe this is what they want - it's their turn to run the country and they haven't finished feeding yet.

Evidence of "feeding" sent it to the PM. dare ya.

You're ignoring history again. Or are you choosing to believe everything that they say just because the Army's Thaksinite and populist gimmicks give you free dental care?

"free dental care"

you don't forget and won't let go??

History is a great friend while watching this slow-motion train crash. There's not been a single new idea floated ... not before nor after the 'intervention'. Everything is just the military+elites' political left-over ideas from the last 50 - 70 years.

[rubl]

It's great to see all these "Good People" raising so many valid arguments. A Dhammocracy would perhaps be run by that mad monk Suthep?

At this rate, the NCPO will have good reason to postpone the election for a few more years.

Maybe this is what they want - it's their turn to run the country and they haven't finished feeding yet.

Evidence of "feeding" sent it to the PM. dare ya.

You're ignoring history again. Or are you choosing to believe everything that they say just because the Army's Thaksinite and populist gimmicks give you free dental care?

Free dental care? For farang?

If only I knew. Please tell me more

[Thanet]

Evidence of "feeding" sent it to the PM. dare ya.

You're ignoring history again. Or are you choosing to believe everything that they say just because the Army's Thaksinite and populist gimmicks give you free dental care?

Free dental care? For farang?

If only I knew. Please tell me more

Your mate Ginjag will tell you all you need to know. He was boasting about how he is a recent beneficiary of this unabashedly populist Thaksinite gimmick.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Thanet

[binjalin]

oh goodie let's have Pra Issara and Pra Suthep both shining examples of monkhood

now if they booted them out with the jet setting monk and the sex offenders and ladyboy monks maybe, just maybe, people would take them seriously

[rubl]

oh goodie let's have Pra Issara and Pra Suthep both shining examples of monkhood

now if they booted them out with the jet setting monk and the sex offenders and ladyboy monks maybe, just maybe, people would take them seriously

It seems you have a problem understanding the difference between the philosophies and principles and the people who may or may not adhere to them. The OP doesn't mention names, only this

"ideologies that would transform the country's democracy into a "dhammocracy", or democracy based on Buddhist philosophies and principles."

[Johpa]

Most Thais don't even know what Dhamma is; in fact I don't even know of 1 single person who is not a monk who can read or speak Pali

I know many Thais who did a proper, minimum several months, study of Dhamma while joining the Sangha during an entire season of pansaa. Of course far more do their one week service and end up knowing little about Dhamma, but go to just about any village in a traditional area and you will find a small group of village leaders, men with "buun" (บุญ) men who are perceived to be knowledgeable good men (คนดี).

The problem for the out of touch leadership in Bangkok is that in the vast hinterland the people are not exactly like they were during the first half of the current dynasty and there are many people who are just as likely to hold Aet Carabao as their ideal of a "good person" as some former monk. The isolated Thais in Bangkok are no less naive about how the rest of the country thinks than are many of the ex-pats posting on ThaiVisa.

[binjalin]

oh goodie let's have Pra Issara and Pra Suthep both shining examples of monkhood

now if they booted them out with the jet setting monk and the sex offenders and ladyboy monks maybe, just maybe, people would take them seriously

It seems you have a problem understanding the difference between the philosophies and principles and the people who may or may not adhere to them. The OP doesn't mention names, only this

"ideologies that would transform the country's democracy into a "dhammocracy", or democracy based on Buddhist philosophies and principles."

certainly not but those who profess to be 'monks' and don the 'saffron robe' are the example of the philosophy and principals of Buddhism

I find little Buddhism in Thailand unfortunately only a mix of Buddhism, Hinduism and Animism and this country does NOT need some sort of Thai Theocracy which would be dominated by the "Issara's and Suthep's"

[greenchair]

Scary for my son. What are they going

Brainwash him with at school?

[rubl]

oh goodie let's have Pra Issara and Pra Suthep both shining examples of monkhood

now if they booted them out with the jet setting monk and the sex offenders and ladyboy monks maybe, just maybe, people would take them seriously

It seems you have a problem understanding the difference between the philosophies and principles and the people who may or may not adhere to them. The OP doesn't mention names, only this

"ideologies that would transform the country's democracy into a "dhammocracy", or democracy based on Buddhist philosophies and principles."

certainly not but those who profess to be 'monks' and don the 'saffron robe' are the example of the philosophy and principals of Buddhism

I find little Buddhism in Thailand unfortunately only a mix of Buddhism, Hinduism and Animism and this country does NOT need some sort of Thai Theocracy which would be dominated by the "Issara's and Suthep's"

I beg to differ. The 'profess' suggests 'not real'. Well all 'not real' ones are NOT examples of philosophy and principles.

Thai Buddhism indeed seems an interesting mix of beliefs. Some of it seems to reflect in the ghost movies I see on Thai TV.

Lastly whether or not Thailand needs a Theocracy (personally I would think it a 'novel' idea which should pass), the two figures you mentioned you also suggested to 'profess only'. If that would be the case than indeed those should not only not dominate, but probably be defrocked as well. Under your assumption of 'profess', that is.

[Thanet]

oh goodie let's have Pra Issara and Pra Suthep both shining examples of monkhood

now if they booted them out with the jet setting monk and the sex offenders and ladyboy monks maybe, just maybe, people would take them seriously

It seems you have a problem understanding the difference between the philosophies and principles and the people who may or may not adhere to them. The OP doesn't mention names, only this

"ideologies that would transform the country's democracy into a "dhammocracy", or democracy based on Buddhist philosophies and principles."

Philosophy is a thinking process. It can't exist on its own, without people to interpret it.

Buddhism is a noble philosophy in the minds of some, but not when it is used for political gain, as is the case when low grade politicians start to quote it as a means of control.

History abounds with misery and injustice that is the usual result when politicians pretend to be philosophers.

[Thanet]

oh goodie let's have Pra Issara and Pra Suthep both shining examples of monkhood

now if they booted them out with the jet setting monk and the sex offenders and ladyboy monks maybe, just maybe, people would take them seriously

It seems you have a problem understanding the difference between the philosophies and principles and the people who may or may not adhere to them. The OP doesn't mention names, only this

"ideologies that would transform the country's democracy into a "dhammocracy", or democracy based on Buddhist philosophies and principles."

certainly not but those who profess to be 'monks' and don the 'saffron robe' are the example of the philosophy and principals of Buddhism

I find little Buddhism in Thailand unfortunately only a mix of Buddhism, Hinduism and Animism and this country does NOT need some sort of Thai Theocracy which would be dominated by the "Issara's and Suthep's"

I beg to differ. The 'profess' suggests 'not real'. Well all 'not real' ones are NOT examples of philosophy and principles.

Thai Buddhism indeed seems an interesting mix of beliefs. Some of it seems to reflect in the ghost movies I see on Thai TV.

Lastly whether or not Thailand needs a Theocracy (personally I would think it a 'novel' idea which should pass), the two figures you mentioned you also suggested to 'profess only'. If that would be the case than indeed those should not only not dominate, but probably be defrocked as well. Under your assumption of 'profess', that is.

Nonsense post - behind all the semantics and word games, what is your point?

[tbthailand]

oh goodie let's have Pra Issara and Pra Suthep both shining examples of monkhood

now if they booted them out with the jet setting monk and the sex offenders and ladyboy monks maybe, just maybe, people would take them seriously

It seems you have a problem understanding the difference between the philosophies and principles and the people who may or may not adhere to them. The OP doesn't mention names, only this

"ideologies that would transform the country's democracy into a "dhammocracy", or democracy based on Buddhist philosophies and principles."

Philosophy is a thinking process. It can't exist on its own, without people to interpret it.

Buddhism is a noble philosophy in the minds of some, but not when it is used for political gain, as is the case when low grade politicians start to quote it as a means of control.

History abounds with misery and injustice that is the usual result when politicians pretend to be philosophers.

you are correct.

and it happens with all religions that I am aware of.

christianity and islam are used to justify killing people.

In Thailand, buddhism, specifically merit, was used to justify killing communists not too long ago...

[rubl]

It seems you have a problem understanding the difference between the philosophies and principles and the people who may or may not adhere to them. The OP doesn't mention names, only this

"ideologies that would transform the country's democracy into a "dhammocracy", or democracy based on Buddhist philosophies and principles."

certainly not but those who profess to be 'monks' and don the 'saffron robe' are the example of the philosophy and principals of Buddhism

I find little Buddhism in Thailand unfortunately only a mix of Buddhism, Hinduism and Animism and this country does NOT need some sort of Thai Theocracy which would be dominated by the "Issara's and Suthep's"

I beg to differ. The 'profess' suggests 'not real'. Well all 'not real' ones are NOT examples of philosophy and principles.

Thai Buddhism indeed seems an interesting mix of beliefs. Some of it seems to reflect in the ghost movies I see on Thai TV.

Lastly whether or not Thailand needs a Theocracy (personally I would think it a 'novel' idea which should pass), the two figures you mentioned you also suggested to 'profess only'. If that would be the case than indeed those should not only not dominate, but probably be defrocked as well. Under your assumption of 'profess', that is.

Nonsense post - behind all the semantics and word games, what is your point?

Since you say you're Thai and therefore English may cause you problems at times I'll try to explain in simpler words.

Up to a point I agree with binjalin, that Thailand doesn't need a Theocracy that is, but for different reasons. I just disagree with giving as reason a dislike of certain persons.

Feel free to ask more questions, if doubts remain.

Uncle rubl

[rubl]

oh goodie let's have Pra Issara and Pra Suthep both shining examples of monkhood

now if they booted them out with the jet setting monk and the sex offenders and ladyboy monks maybe, just maybe, people would take them seriously

It seems you have a problem understanding the difference between the philosophies and principles and the people who may or may not adhere to them. The OP doesn't mention names, only this

"ideologies that would transform the country's democracy into a "dhammocracy", or democracy based on Buddhist philosophies and principles."

Philosophy is a thinking process. It can't exist on its own, without people to interpret it.

Buddhism is a noble philosophy in the minds of some, but not when it is used for political gain, as is the case when low grade politicians start to quote it as a means of control.

History abounds with misery and injustice that is the usual result when politicians pretend to be philosophers.

you are correct.

and it happens with all religions that I am aware of.

christianity and islam are used to justify killing people.

In Thailand, buddhism, specifically merit, was used to justify killing communists not too long ago...

I agree with the separation of State and Religion. Mind you to some their political system seems like a replacement only making things not better but worse. "Socialist Democracy" was an example, but even a "bring democracy to the World" doesn't help too much as it forces yet another system on countries and people and in many times because those who bring don't have completely pure motives. In many cases "economical might" seems more of a motive coupled with the greater easy to get other countries to do what is 'right' when one has 'democratic might'.

Edited October 28, 2014 by rubl

[tbthailand]

It seems you have a problem understanding the difference between the philosophies and principles and the people who may or may not adhere to them. The OP doesn't mention names, only this

"ideologies that would transform the country's democracy into a "dhammocracy", or democracy based on Buddhist philosophies and principles."

Philosophy is a thinking process. It can't exist on its own, without people to interpret it.

Buddhism is a noble philosophy in the minds of some, but not when it is used for political gain, as is the case when low grade politicians start to quote it as a means of control.

History abounds with misery and injustice that is the usual result when politicians pretend to be philosophers.

you are correct.

and it happens with all religions that I am aware of.

christianity and islam are used to justify killing people.

In Thailand, buddhism, specifically merit, was used to justify killing communists not too long ago...

I agree with the separation of State and Religion. Mind you to some their political system seems like a replacement only making things not better but worse. "Socialist Democracy" was an example, but even a "bring democracy to the World" doesn't help too much as it forces yet another system on countries and people and in many times because those who bring don't have completely pure motives. In many cases "economical might" seems more of a motive coupled with the greater easy to get other countries to do what is 'right' when one has 'democratic might'.

really not sure what you wanted to say there.

it's simple, religion and governance should be separate because religion is a belief system and governance is the means through which societies manage their common assets and interests. They two are not logically related and therefore have no reason to be linked.

[rubl]

You are correct.

and it happens with all religions that I am aware of.

christianity and islam are used to justify killing people.

In Thailand, buddhism, specifically merit, was used to justify killing communists not too long ago...

I agree with the separation of State and Religion. Mind you to some their political system seems like a replacement only making things not better but worse. "Socialist Democracy" was an example, but even a "bring democracy to the World" doesn't help too much as it forces yet another system on countries and people and in many times because those who bring don't have completely pure motives. In many cases "economical might" seems more of a motive coupled with the greater easy to get other countries to do what is 'right' when one has 'democratic might'.

really not sure what you wanted to say there.

it's simple, religion and governance should be separate because religion is a belief system and governance is the means through which societies manage their common assets and interests. They two are not logically related and therefore have no reason to be linked.

Some like to use any tool to achieve 'proper' governance. Religion can be such a tool. Strictly speaking even 'laws' are such a tool. Religion can have a task in instilling a moral framework in people, to ensure social justice and equality. With laws there is at times more emphasise on 'crime and punishment'.

To make people understand the personal and social value of a moral framework (whether based on belief or reason) ain't easy. Mainly because humans are involved.

[tbthailand]

You are correct.

and it happens with all religions that I am aware of.

christianity and islam are used to justify killing people.

In Thailand, buddhism, specifically merit, was used to justify killing communists not too long ago...

I agree with the separation of State and Religion. Mind you to some their political system seems like a replacement only making things not better but worse. "Socialist Democracy" was an example, but even a "bring democracy to the World" doesn't help too much as it forces yet another system on countries and people and in many times because those who bring don't have completely pure motives. In many cases "economical might" seems more of a motive coupled with the greater easy to get other countries to do what is 'right' when one has 'democratic might'.

really not sure what you wanted to say there.

it's simple, religion and governance should be separate because religion is a belief system and governance is the means through which societies manage their common assets and interests. They two are not logically related and therefore have no reason to be linked.

Some like to use any tool to achieve 'proper' governance. Religion can be such a tool. Strictly speaking even 'laws' are such a tool. Religion can have a task in instilling a moral framework in people, to ensure social justice and equality. With laws there is at times more emphasise on 'crime and punishment'.

To make people understand the personal and social value of a moral framework (whether based on belief or reason) ain't easy. Mainly because humans are involved.

OK, I understand what you mean. I agree that there are people who reach for particular tools to obtain a result. And some people & groups do, obviously, use religion for their own purposes whether that is related to governance or not.

Generally, at least in a free society, I would disagree that laws are such a tool... Generally, laws are one result of our self-government. Yes, I do agree that some laws are specifically related to governance and along with things like a constitution, provide a framework for governing. But most of the laws just define the rules we agree to live by, but are not related to governance.

I would not use the word "task" to describe a role that religion has vis a vis moral framework. Religion may, possibly, help guide a moral development in some people but having seen many many immoral yet very religious people and many many moral but not religious people, I can't say that I find a strong correlation. Yes, yes, yes, there is a strong correlation between very religious people and their beliefs - but not necessarily a strong correlation between religion and morals. (adding, I think that morals are independent of religion and are derived from (1) the inner character and (2) the life experiences of the person.)

Lastly, I think that we like to think that religion can create a moral framework in order to "ensure social justice and equality", to use your wording which is quite appropriate. But perhaps most especially here, I would have to say that people generally would like faith and religion to do that, but I believe that the effects of religious beliefs in our current societies around the globe as well as over the many millennium of human history show that religion / religious beliefs are usually the brakes on social justice and equality.

Nothing is absolute. There are always exceptions. But I feel that people around the globe desire for religion to have the effects that you highlight while the actual results tend to differ significantly - much of the time.

Edited October 28, 2014 by tbthailand