Taking Thai language classes a total waste of time and money.

[Richard W]

This is an interesting topic, apart from the personal insults. A couple observations -

1). เผ็ด vs.เป็ด

Not only is the tone different, the consonant is as well. The ป is non-plosive, whereas the ผ is plosive.

Apart from the puzzling statement about the tone, the terminology is wrong. The ป is unaspirated, whereas the ผ is aspirated, and that it is the primary difference. I suppose the aspiration or its lack may have some effect on the tone, just as it has so spectacularly on live syllables without tone marks. (Or has it? Live syllables with rising tone starting with ก จ ต or ป are so rare that I've seen their existence denied!)

[Richard W]

Live syllables with rising tone starting with ก จ ต or ป are so rare that I've seen their existence denied!

Sorry, I may have got this wrong. It might be high tone that the observation was made for. Chinese loanwords like เก๊ and โก๋ readily show that an observation such as the one I'm trying to recall (in this case from a paper by Gandour) are really of limited relevance to modern Thai. The combinations are rare because of history, and that's all there is to them.

[farangdude84]

This is an interesting topic, apart from the personal insults. A couple observations -

1). เผ็ด vs.เป็ด

Not only is the tone different, the consonant is as well. The ป is non-plosive, whereas the ผ is plosive.

Apart from the puzzling statement about the tone, the terminology is wrong. The ป is unaspirated, whereas the ผ is aspirated, and that it is the primary difference. I suppose the aspiration or its lack may have some effect on the tone, just as it has so spectacularly on live syllables without tone marks. (Or has it? Live syllables with rising tone starting with ก จ ต or ป are so rare that I've seen their existence denied!)

My mistake on the tone. Also, I suppose it is better (correct) to speak of unaspirated vs. aspirated (plosives). That wasn't really the main focus of the post though.

[ATF]

I agree with the OP's prognosis (for once) because just about everyone I know who has took Thai language classes has failed miserably to master Thai. Too much theory and not enough practice. However if you are learning Thai you must learn from someone who has a good knowledge of the language and speaks with an educated accent otherwise you will sound like a fool.

It's funny when I hear foreigners speak English with Scottish or Northern English accents.

You know when you can speak Thai properly when the waitress listens to you instead of looking at your GF or you can tell a Cop to piss off without getting arrested.

I learnt Thai from a Vietnam Vet to start and then in an office environment. Learning from a Falung is a good way to start because they can relate the language to you better than a Thai.

[kriswillems]

After this part of shameless self promotion we're very curious to see the first youtube video with you speaking Thai.

[gerry1011]

This is an interesting topic, apart from the personal insults. A couple observations -

1). เผ็ด vs.เป็ด

Not only is the tone different, the consonant is as well. The ป is non-plosive, whereas the ผ is plosive.

2).I have been in Thailand for a tad over 5.5 years and have never once taken Thai class. Now, while it's true that Thais tend to be complimentary of one's language abilities - if you're way off base, they simply won't understand. For myself, language is a way to communicate with people - I'm not running for office here nor do I have any intention to give some sort of speech in Thai. I learn as I go - and most times Thais just speak to me normally, without comment. I can also read and write Thai, having taught myself how to do so. Thus, based on my own personal experience, I could say that shelling out dough for formal Thai lessons isn't necessary. However, I'm not so sure I'd call it a waste of money. Some things that a language school could give students a leg up in:

-various registers

-polite vs. impolite words (i.e. words to avoid using)

-firm grounding in consonant class and tone rules

-a person qualified to answer specific questions pertaining to the Thai language

3). The notion that speaking a language is enough is simple preposterous. I suppose if you enjoy being I-L-L-I-T-E-R-A-T-E, feel free to ignore a vital part to any language. There are so many things that are missed when one cannot read Thai. Chances are - if you can't read Thai you have been paying extra money when there's no need to do so, have gotten lost before, have gone the long way, have run straight into construction instead of avoiding it (something knowing how to read would have let you do), etc. etc. etc. There are actually some decent books written in Thai - but of course, if you can't read Thai, you are missing out on that. Even something as simple as going to a Thai language forum and reading what Thai people write and learning how Thais think - people who can't read Thai miss out on all that. In a country where people do not just ไว้ใจ (waijai) anyone, it is particularly disconcerting that so many foreigners are happy to sign legally binding contracts without the ability to read them.

เรียนวิธีการเขียนภาษาไทยมันไม่ยากเลย

I can only agree 100% with what you said.

Being a non-native English I could not have explained this as good as you did.

I would just add that, in today's world, I also enjoy very much making new Thai friends on social media and chat with them in Thai on various apps.

Without the Thai written language there is a big part of the society that you can't reach.

Learn Thai for your own happiness !

[ATF]

After this part of shameless self promotion we're very curious to see the first youtube video with you speaking Thai.

I don't think you'll be seeing any YouTube vids from the OP he'll probably end up banging blackboard dusters in Cambodia like another member.

[farangdude84]

Is it possible that some people take such offense to the OP because they don't like the idea that they've spent X amount for lessons and people have not spent a satang on formal lessons are able to learn Thai quite well? Learning pronunciation from daily interaction (assuming the interaction is at normal locales, not soi cowboy and the like) is actually better than learning a newscaster sort of pronunciation.

Do the schools stress enunciation on the ร? I can't tell you how many Thais (from all over the country) have said there is no ร sound - only on the news or if someone is giving a speech. If you want to sound like a local, you need to speak to the locals. You don't get that sitting in a class, repeating a sort of pronunciation hardly anyone uses and practicing with other foreigners who are at or below your own level.

There are plenty of good arguments for taking class - and I've given some of them above. However, more than one person replying here just seems to think it is impossible to learn Thai without sitting in a class. It is more than possible to learn tone rules without an instructor (don't allow my own laziness to do serve as a counter-example).

ที่สำคัญก็คือมีความสามารถสื่อสารกับคนไทยแล้วแท้ทุกคนเรียนไม่เรียนพิเศษ

[ATF]

Thai is like any other language you first need to get interested in it to learn. They don't teach you in school how to order a beer properly or order food or chat up girls they will start you off with the alphabet which is useless to begin with.

Just remember how you learned your mother tongue. You asked your mother or father what's this called what's that's called? You were speaking long before you went to school.

Once you have a good understanding of Thai and a decent vocabulary taking a class would be useful to polish your skills and learn to read and write if you are so inclined.

[GarryP]

The difference between you and those stupid farangs is that when they speak others understand, while when you speak, you the only one who understands

+

And when they speak it sounds like an educated Thai, even if the skills aren't perfect. While learning it on the go it sounds like the taxi driver, homemaid, market women or bar girl.....

Putting that aside out esteem OP would not have a clue about any tones , ie people have no clue if he wants spicy or a duck, nor does he know when it's an "r" or "l"

Actually not true. In learning by total immersion tones come naturally. And as to your example, I hope you realize the tones for spicy and duck are actually the same. It is the consonants that are different.

Over the years I have known a number of individuals who have seriously studied the language at a variety of schools, and in many cases, their spoken Thai, while grammatically correct, sounded awful. Most over enunciated, as they had been taught to do and used full sentences all the time. A very unnatural way to speak.

[farangdude84]

The thing about tones is that there are two ways to go about it (and both have been indicated here) : learn from immersion or learn tone rules and practice until it becomes innate. Now, anyone reading through this thread will notice I erred regarding the tones of เป็ด and เผ็ด. However this does not mean that I pronounce the words incorrectly - it's just more an indication that I am not so on the up and up with tone rules. My Thai has been learned through self-study and total immersion mixed with constantly asking questions and looking for feedback from Thais. I have had more than one Thai give me a puzzled look when I've asked which tone a specific word takes. I have a couple theories as to why this would be perplexing...

a). Thais simply don't think about tone rules - they speak in their natural way. How many of us could quickly and accurately identify the stress of every syllable in a spoken sentence? Oftentimes the difference is so minute that it's hard to tell (or maybe I'm just dumb).

. In connected speech (perhaps I'm using incorrect terminology again - I mean to say when stringing words together to form sentences)- tone rules often go out the window and some words take a default mid-tone. Thus, recalling the specific tone of a word may not always be the easiest thing to do.

Of course, I'm not immune to mistakes- and the more I make, the more I learn. However, this whole notion of it being imperative to learn tone rules is something I don't agree with. Perhaps if you are a linguist or your particular career requires you to be an expert in the subject it would be pertinent, but as for myself, thinking of the different tones simply as different vowel sounds has worked (i.e. หา and ห้า to me have a slightly different "ah" sound).

My two cents.

[ATF]

The thing about tones is that there are two ways to go about it (and both have been indicated here) : learn from immersion or learn tone rules and practice until it becomes innate. Now, anyone reading through this thread will notice I erred regarding the tones of เป็ด and เผ็ด. However this does not mean that I pronounce the words incorrectly - it's just more an indication that I am not so on the up and up with tone rules. My Thai has been learned through self-study and total immersion mixed with constantly asking questions and looking for feedback from Thais. I have had more than one Thai give me a puzzled look when I've asked which tone a specific word takes. I have a couple theories as to why this would be perplexing...

a). Thais simply don't think about tone rules - they speak in their natural way. How many of us could quickly and accurately identify the stress of every syllable in a spoken sentence? Oftentimes the difference is so minute that it's hard to tell (or maybe I'm just dumb).

. In connected speech (perhaps I'm using incorrect terminology again - I mean to say when stringing words together to form sentences)- tone rules often go out the window and some words take a default mid-tone. Thus, recalling the specific tone of a word may not always be the easiest thing to do.

Of course, I'm not immune to mistakes- and the more I make, the more I learn. However, this whole notion of it being imperative to learn tone rules is something I don't agree with. Perhaps if you are a linguist or your particular career requires you to be an expert in the subject it would be pertinent, but as for myself, thinking of the different tones simply as different vowel sounds has worked (i.e. หา and ห้า to me have a slightly different "ah" sound).

My two cents.

I will get chastised over this but I would tell you to forget about the tones. Bangkok Thais have enough sense to calculate the context of the word while upcountry they will be listening for the tones. Just ask them have they ever been to Bangkok and this is the way Bangkok people speak.

Get a vocab going and worry about everything else later.

[Richard W]

...thinking of the different tones simply as different vowel sounds has worked (i.e. หา and ห้า to me have a slightly different "ah" sound).

Wow! That's over 105 different vowels. Don't you have some notion of how the 'slightly different' vowels differ?

If เป็ด and เผ็ด have different vowels to you, that more like 210 different vowels!

[farangdude84]

@ATF: I remember reading that someone quite important in Thai society also said something along those lines.

@Richard: Why would your two given examples have different vowel sounds? Actually, learning slight nuances through immersion isn't any more difficult than learning tone rules and being able to apply them spontaneously.

How I learn Thai isn't really a subject for debate. The measuring stick is my ability to carry on a conversation. Why is my way of learning so hard for you to understand? Do falling tone and rising tone sound the same to you?

[BaldPlumber]

I am trying to learn Thai with a Thai teacher 1:1 for 2 hours a day Mon-Fri. This has been my 4th week, but I had a little bar-girl education before. I am very lucky to have an extremely well educated and multi-lingual teacher which is a huge bonus but it is still a difficult and frustrating experience.These are my impressions at a very early date:-

The syntax and assembly of sentences is quite straightforward, albeit strange for a natural English speaker

Some of the word beginnings seem impossible for me, despite the fact that I have the same muscles in my mouth as Thais, mine have developed differently

Similarly, some Thai words defy transliteration to the degree that you can accurately practise them by yourself and transliteration itself is generally quite poor

Accurate tones, whilst something you would wish for, are less important in a sentence where the words context is implied, as opposed to blurting out single words randomly

There is no resonance, absolutely none for me with regard to the Thai alphabet. Learning this is going to be a long and horrible experience

Unfortunately, not being able to read Thai would really hamper your unaided progression in Thai - you might not know what the word means but at least you can pronounce it

I'm going to give it a year and hope to be reasonably fluent in conversational Thai by then but how I wish I had wanted to live in a country with a latin based alphabet. I cannot imagine any other western language being more difficult to learn, with the possible exception of Italian, if I could just read it naturally.

So far, we have covered about 700 new words, with a lot of these being derivative based by just adding a "san" or a "yow" on the end.

On the plus side though I have learnt to read and write Thai numbers and am very pleased with my ability to write zero properly!

[farangdude84]

I don't think a Latin based script makes thing any easier. Personally, I am finding Tagalog harder than Thai.

On a side note - you could learn Lao (which has a much more simplified script).

[ATF]

I am trying to learn Thai with a Thai teacher 1:1 for 2 hours a day Mon-Fri. This has been my 4th week, but I had a little bar-girl education before. I am very lucky to have an extremely well educated and multi-lingual teacher which is a huge bonus but it is still a difficult and frustrating experience.

This is the problem with language schools. You've learnt 700 words but how many do you use daily? You only need about 200 words to get by in any language.

Learn to say what is this called? And you will be teaching yourself constantly. The Thai teacher may be well educated and well meaning but what she has taught you is a pile of junk that you may never use. I can't read or write Thai numbers and I can't remember all the months of the year but I could explain in Thai what's wrong with my car or how to strip down a motorbike or even build a house.

[BaldPlumber]

I am trying to learn Thai with a Thai teacher 1:1 for 2 hours a day Mon-Fri. This has been my 4th week, but I had a little bar-girl education before. I am very lucky to have an extremely well educated and multi-lingual teacher which is a huge bonus but it is still a difficult and frustrating experience.

This is the problem with language schools. You've learnt 700 words but how many do you use daily? You only need about 200 words to get by in any language.

Learn to say what is this called? And you will be teaching yourself constantly. The Thai teacher may be well educated and well meaning but what she has taught you is a pile of junk that you may never use. I can't read or write Thai numbers and I can't remember all the months of the year but I could explain in Thai what's wrong with my car or how to strip down a motorbike or even build a house.

It's not a school, it's a private tutor. As I explained, the total of approx 700 is a bit misleading as one root word can spawn 3 or 4 more. It's also certainly not useless, unless you call every day Thai useless.

But thanks for your useful comments.

[rgs2001uk]

I am trying to learn Thai with a Thai teacher 1:1 for 2 hours a day Mon-Fri. This has been my 4th week, but I had a little bar-girl education before. I am very lucky to have an extremely well educated and multi-lingual teacher which is a huge bonus but it is still a difficult and frustrating experience.

This is the problem with language schools. You've learnt 700 words but how many do you use daily? You only need about 200 words to get by in any language.

Learn to say what is this called? And you will be teaching yourself constantly. The Thai teacher may be well educated and well meaning but what she has taught you is a pile of junk that you may never use. I can't read or write Thai numbers and I can't remember all the months of the year but I could explain in Thai what's wrong with my car or how to strip down a motorbike or even build a house.

It's not a school, it's a private tutor. As I explained, the total of approx 700 is a bit misleading as one root word can spawn 3 or 4 more. It's also certainly not useless, unless you call every day Thai useless.

But thanks for your useful comments.

It's also certainly not useless, unless you call every day Thai useless.

Nothing wrong with everyday Thai if thats where you intend to spend your time, everyday on the streets.

I sure as heck wouldnt be taking everyday Thai to a place like immigration, any gov't building or any place like a bank hospital or financial building.

The taloong language may well be acceptable at the local market, I wouldnt dare use it in any offical capacity or dealings.

Being the layered language it is, I was taught to speak proper polite Thai, depending on location and company I can downgrade to everyday Thai.

I would hate to be stuck with everyday Thai and be unable to upgrade as and when required.

Mai loo wa, may be acceptable in the soi, try that as an answer at immi.

[Fab5BKK]

Interesting debate, indeed!

However, I do not see the point of insulting each other!

That reminds me a topic where someone was claiming reading fluency when he didn't have a clue about the meaning of these words.

Learning a foreign language takes long time. I'm not an English native speaker and after years @ school, unis, and practice @ work I consider that I'm still learning... ;-)

Back to Thai. All depend on the Thai language you're keen to learn (bar, street, uni level, etc.).

I believe that nothing will beat proper formal learning (in a good school) + homework, combined with immersion (where you get opportunities to practice).

Just my 2 cents

[Richard W]

Wow! That's over 105 different vowels. Don't you have some notion of how the 'slightly different' vowels differ?

If เป็ด and เผ็ด have different vowels to you, that more like 210 different vowels!

@Richard: Why would your two given examples have different vowel sounds? Actually, learning slight nuances through immersion isn't any more difficult than learning tone rules and being able to apply them spontaneously.

You described words differing by tone as having slightly different vowels, and had previously said the two words had different tones. You're probably right about them actually having different pitch contours, though I strongly suspect that that is a complication that most people are better off not knowing.

As to the different flavours of /aa/, the real issue of complexity is how well you transfer the difference to other vowels. If you readily transfer the differences between vowels, then you've grasped tones. If you have 5 flavours of open-syllabled /aa/, 5 flavours of /aan/ and 3 flavours of /aat/, then you will have learnt tones better than someone who just tries to transfer a tone pattern to all manner of syllable shapes.

[ATF]

It's not a school, it's a private tutor. As I explained, the total of approx 700 is a bit misleading as one root word can spawn 3 or 4 more. It's also certainly not useless, unless you call every day Thai useless.

But thanks for your useful comments.

I would say she is not teaching you everyday Thai. What's a car tire or wheel called, together with their classifiers? There's a kids book that's A4 size with the names and pics of everyday objects in Thai and English I suggest you get one of these before your Thai teacher destroys your interest in Thai and you fall by the wayside like so many others.

[BaldPlumber]

What's the name of the book?

[BaldPlumber]

Law and yaang btw dunno the classifiers

[ATF]

What's the name of the book?

Don't know the name but they sell it in most major bookstores it's A4 size and all pics with the names in Thai and English.

[ATF]

Law and yaang btw dunno the classifiers

The classifiers would be ahn. Law rot song ahn. Which is the normal classifier together with dtooa.

Keep at it buddy.

[BaldPlumber]

Haha just finished today's session

[farangdude84]

The point I was making about tones is that for me I hear a significant sound difference. When I first arrived, I couldn't tell much of a difference, but after a couple months of listening, the tones started to sound to me as if there were slightly different sounds to the vowels. It's just how I've come to terms with tones. Regarding my having said those two words carried different tones - I hope you will forgive an error I made when typing without actually thinking much. Also, I am not perfect regarding tones, but I would say I'm rather good. Often I can say a word correctly, but I'm not sure of the tone it carries -also, I err when saying a word in isolation, but I can say it correctly in a sentence. Having learned Thai through immersion, I've learned connected speech more than single words.

Now, I'd like to reply to this notion that there are only 200 words - or even 700 - that are useful in Thai. If you only plan on using Thai to order food and drink, take a taxi, and do whatever simple stuff, this may be true. However, if you plan on making Thai friends, having meaningful conversations, watching a Thai movie, reading a Thai book, listening to the news, etc. then even 1,000 words would be paltry and not serve one very well. If you are just here on a vacation, fine - but if you are someone who has moved to Thailand and plans on living here, then in my humble opinion it would behoove you to actually learn the language past a pidgin level.

I do agree, though, that learning "what's this in Thai?" should be one of the first phrases a person moving to Thailand learns.

พวกเราต้องจำได้ว่าภาษาของประเทศนี้มันคือภาษาไทยนะครับก็ถ้าหากจะอยู่ที่นี้เรียนรู้ภาษาของประชาชนดีกว่าไ่ม่แคร์พูดเป็นแคภาษาอังกฤษ

เราย้ายบ้านอยู่เมืองไทยเลยต้องเกรงใจคนไทยโดยความพยายามเรียนภาษาที่พว่กเขาเข้าใจง่ายๆที่สุด

Just some thoughts.

[BaldPlumber]

I agree completely. I also think the key to learning any language is being able to read it. Unfortunately I'm months away from that.

[ATF]

Now, I'd like to reply to this notion that there are only 200 words - or even 700 - that are useful in Thai. If you only plan on using Thai to order food and drink, take a taxi, and do whatever simple stuff, this may be true. However, if you plan on making Thai friends, having meaningful conversations, watching a Thai movie, reading a Thai book, listening to the news, etc. then even 1,000 words would be paltry and not serve one very well. If you are just here on a vacation, fine - but if you are someone who has moved to Thailand and plans on living here, then in my humble opinion it would behoove you to actually learn the language past a pidgin level.

Of course you need more than 200 words but 200 words is enough to get by on and start teaching yourself but what I was saying is you need the right 200 words. Words that you will use everyday to order food, take Taxis, buy clothes etc. Not initially useless words that you will rarely use which most language schools will start you off on.