Buddha-themed Bars And Restaurants Begs The Question: Wwbd?

[sabaijai]

Exploiting Buddha?

A surge of swanky Buddha-themed bars and restaurants begs the question: WWBD?

By Alana B. Elias Kornfeld & Valerie Reiss

The lights are so dim at Tao Asian Bistro, a Manhattan restaurant and bar, you can barely read the menu to see the ingredients in your $12 Tao-tini cocktail. Above all the flirting, drinking, and spending, an illuminated 16-foot Buddha statue looms. In the past year, Buddhism-themed restaurants and bars have proliferated; there are now at least 20 in about 13 cities. This spring, four bastions of serene extravagance-Buddakan, Buddha Bar, Megu Midtown, and Moksha-opened in New York City alone. Om, in Cambridge, Mass., just opened its doors, with aromatherapy cocktails and specially commissioned Buddhist art from a master painter in Nepal. Tao opened a Las Vegas playground last September.

What would Buddha do? Drinking liquor, eating meat and, in general, spending huge sums on sensual indulgence would seem to conflict with the core Buddhist tenets of simplicity, vegetarianism, and moderation. The Buddha wasn't all that into cruising, either. "Men and women meeting each other without pure intentions violates mindfulness trainings," says True Virtue, a fully ordained nun in Thich Nhat Hanh's Vietnamese Zen tradition, at the Green Mountain Dharma Center in Vermont.

Buddhism as a marketing tool is not new. Images of Buddha plaster everything from t-shirts to $200 jeans to Victoria's Secret tankinis (which were protested by a group of Vietnamese American Buddhists). Do the owners of these Buddhist-themed bars and restaurants give any thought to the religion they're borrowing? “Not really, I have to be honest with you, I didn’t,” says Stephen Starr, owner of Buddakan—a trendy restaurant with outlets in Philadelphia, and recently, Manhattan. In designing his restaurants, he "was looking for an image that felt good and safe." Gregory Levine, a University of California at Berkeley associate professor and Buddhist art expert, suggests that because Buddhism comes from Asia, many Americans view it as "exotic," thereby opening the door for some to exploit it for commercial gain or fashion. In other words, Americans who find Buddha-booze sexy might be offended by sipping Martyr-tinis under a giant illuminated crucifix. But even some Buddhists have gotten into the act.

Lama Surya Das, American Buddhist founder of the Dzogchen Foundation, is developing an ice cream flavor with Ben & Jerry's called Jolly Lama-a gold and maroon-swirled sorbet that's in the early stages of review-and plans to donate his profits to a Tibetan refugee project. Of this booming phenomenon, he says, "Buddha doesn't mind, Buddha's open-minded. Buddha's a fat, happy laughing Buddha, and if anything he'd want to say, 'Don't overdrink, don't drink and drive, and don't overeat,' because he taught the middle way, not a way of austerity or grim unworldiness."

But Starr, the owner of chic Buddakan, doesn't feel he's hurting anyone by profiting off of Buddha's hip, peaceful image. He says the concept has gone over well, even with traditionalists. Right after the restaurant opened, a group of Buddhist monks came in and Starr fretted that they would be offended. But one monk assuaged him with these sage words of wisdom: “This Pad Thai is better than my mom’s."

Source: Belief.net

[chownah]

Vegeterianism is not a core Buddhist belief.

The Buddha ate meat and the rules he made for monks allows them to eat meat too. Basically there is no teaching (at least that I have ever heard of) where the Buddha prohibits eating meat.

Chownah

[Plus]

Perhaps you've been exposed only to Thai version of Buddhism. I don't remember where I learn first about it, but Buddhists were supposed to be vegetarians. I think it's general understanding in the West.

[TokyoT]

I think it's general understanding in the West.

Ah, the west - The heartland of Buddhism.

[Plus]

A passage from Wikipedia sums it up:

In the Theravada countries of Southeast Asia and Sri Lanka, monks are bound by the vinaya to accept almost any food that is offered to them, often including meat; while in China and Vietnam, monks are expected to eat no meat. In Japan and Korea, some monks practice vegetarianism, and most will do so at least when training at a monastery, but otherwise they typically do eat meat. In Tibet, where vegetables have been historically very scarce, and the adopted vinaya was the Nikaya Sarvāstivāda, vegetarianism is very rare, although the Dalai Lama and other esteemed lamas invite their audiences to adopt vegetarianism when they can.........

Overall, it can be said that the debate over whether Buddhists should ideally be vegetarian or not continues.

[Plus]

That "general understanding" explained in this passage from the same article:

The first lay precept in Buddhism is usually translated as "I undertake the precept to refrain from taking life." Many see this as implying that Buddhists should not eat the meat of animals. However....

I must give it to Wikipedia - their wording is flawless. It's very difficult to pin them down on something.

Edited August 9, 2006 by Plus

[camerata]

With regard to Buddha images, the West has been fascinated by exotic oriental art and sculpture for a long time, and never made any particular distinction between religious and non-religious images - after all, it's all pagan! And Buddha images do have a very serene air about them.

I don't think a serious Buddhist would be offended by a Buddhist statue in a restaurant/bar - no matter how inappropriate it may be - but the problem is how to use Buddha images as an aid to mindfulness or contemplating the Buddha's virtues if they are seen everywhere in a commercial and decorative setting.

It's the same with a Buddha image at home. Without some specific action such as bowing or offering a garland, it could quickly become an ornament with no religious purpose.

I confess I have an attachment to exotic oriental images myself, but I stick to images of obscure Chinese or Hindu deities to be on the safe side.

It's curious that Lama Surya Das says, "Buddha's a fat, happy laughing Buddha..."

[chownah]

I think its common to have Buddha images in shrines in restaurants in Thailand...but maybe you are talking about a less formal display.

I don't think that serious Buddhists would spend much time in bars so odds of them being offended that way are pretty small.

Once again, though, Buddhists are a varied lot and some take the statues very seriously while others not so.

As for eating meat...I do not believe that the Buddha ever made a statement that one should not eat meat.....except for certain types of meat that should not be eaten by monks. It was explained to me that certain types of meat are forbidden to monks because eating those types are commonly seen as repulsive and the Buddha did his best to disallow repulsive behavior for monks. The types of meat not allowed are things like lions and tigers and elephants etc....and raw meat (which is commonly eaten by laybuddhists in northern Thailand). A list of disallowed meats for monks can be found in the Vinaya Pitaka...but I don't have a link to offer.

Chownah

[thaibebop]

My wife and I live in the land of uneducated christians and isolation who think Buddha looks cool at the heads of beds, or over look the sex pad, or he looks cool in the garden next to the dumb a$$ gnome and the plastic deer.

My wife never gets bent out shape, just says that what they do will be repaid.

[the swagman]

It is common for restaurants to have Buddha images but they are there to be offered garlands or so forth, they are not there for decoration.

Some friends of mine were aghast at a friends house in USA where they were using a large and quite revered Buddha image as a hat rack.

Unfortunately, some non Buddhists feel it is 'cool' to have a Buddha image for decorative purposes. This does put Buddhists in a tizz, but as Thaibebop's wife says, they will be repaid.

[thaibebop]

It is common for restaurants to have Buddha images but they are there to be offered garlands or so forth, they are not there for decoration.

Some friends of mine were aghast at a friends house in USA where they were using a large and quite revered Buddha image as a hat rack.

Unfortunately, some non Buddhists feel it is 'cool' to have a Buddha image for decorative purposes. This does put Buddhists in a tizz, but as Thaibebop's wife says, they will be repaid.

Yes, the Buddha's I have seen here in the States in resturants, that are owned by Asians, are always higher than anyone's head and are giving offerings and cleaned daily.

[the swagman]

It is common for restaurants to have Buddha images but they are there to be offered garlands or so forth, they are not there for decoration.

Some friends of mine were aghast at a friends house in USA where they were using a large and quite revered Buddha image as a hat rack.

Unfortunately, some non Buddhists feel it is 'cool' to have a Buddha image for decorative purposes. This does put Buddhists in a tizz, but as Thaibebop's wife says, they will be repaid.

Yes, the Buddha's I have seen here in the States in resturants, that are owned by Asians, are always higher than anyone's head and are giving offerings and cleaned daily.

As they should be.

As Camarata says 'many in the west do not make a distinction between religious and non religious images, after all they're all pagan'

Respect for all religions and religious images and icons should be afforded.

[thaibebop]

It is common for restaurants to have Buddha images but they are there to be offered garlands or so forth, they are not there for decoration.

Some friends of mine were aghast at a friends house in USA where they were using a large and quite revered Buddha image as a hat rack.

Unfortunately, some non Buddhists feel it is 'cool' to have a Buddha image for decorative purposes. This does put Buddhists in a tizz, but as Thaibebop's wife says, they will be repaid.

Yes, the Buddha's I have seen here in the States in resturants, that are owned by Asians, are always higher than anyone's head and are giving offerings and cleaned daily.

As they should be.

As Camarata says 'many in the west do not make a distinction between religious and non religious images, after all they're all pagan'

Respect for all religions and religious images and icons should be afforded.

That's impossible for some.

[the swagman]

It is common for restaurants to have Buddha images but they are there to be offered garlands or so forth, they are not there for decoration.

Some friends of mine were aghast at a friends house in USA where they were using a large and quite revered Buddha image as a hat rack.

Unfortunately, some non Buddhists feel it is 'cool' to have a Buddha image for decorative purposes. This does put Buddhists in a tizz, but as Thaibebop's wife says, they will be repaid.

Yes, the Buddha's I have seen here in the States in resturants, that are owned by Asians, are always higher than anyone's head and are giving offerings and cleaned daily.

As they should be.

As Camarata says 'many in the west do not make a distinction between religious and non religious images, after all they're all pagan'

Respect for all religions and religious images and icons should be afforded.

That's impossible for some.

sad but true.

[sabaijai]

A passage from Wikipedia sums it up:

In the Theravada countries of Southeast Asia and Sri Lanka, monks are bound by the vinaya to accept almost any food that is offered to them, often including meat; while in China and Vietnam, monks are expected to eat no meat. In Japan and Korea, some monks practice vegetarianism, and most will do so at least when training at a monastery, but otherwise they typically do eat meat. In Tibet, where vegetables have been historically very scarce, and the adopted vinaya was the Nikaya Sarvāstivāda, vegetarianism is very rare, although the Dalai Lama and other esteemed lamas invite their audiences to adopt vegetarianism when they can.........

Overall, it can be said that the debate over whether Buddhists should ideally be vegetarian or not continues.

Note: The Dalai Lama eats meat.

[phibunmike]

My wife and I live in the land of uneducated christians and isolation who think Buddha looks cool at the heads of beds, or over look the sex pad, or he looks cool in the garden next to the dumb a$$ gnome and the plastic deer.

My wife never gets bent out shape, just says that what they do will be repaid.

I wanted a Buddha statue in the garden. My wife says it is ok if we respect it, but not if it is purely as a garden ornament.

On the vegetenarianism issue, my (limited) understanding that eating meat is ok as long as you did not cause the animal to be killed so that you could eat it. If it was already a lamb chop in Tesco, its ok; but don't order some meat that they haven't got. Also, lay people are not expected to behave quite as well as monks.

Edit>> I also have to move our house Buddha shelf, because when we are sleeping out feet sort of point vaguely roughly towards him...

Edited August 14, 2006 by phibunmike

[camerata]

A related story on the commercialization of the Buddha's image:

The Buddha Logo

Ven. Shravasti Dhammika

Some months back I got a telephone call from an American woman who was in Singapore on business. Our conversation went something like this.

Her: Good morning. I'm ringing to try to get some information about Buddhism (cheerful).

Me: Yes. How can I help you?

Her: We're launching a new line of clothing, T shirts and the like. And the logo for the line is a picture of the Buddha holding a cup of tea. I'm sure Buddhists wouldn’t be offended by this. What would you think about this?

Me: A picture of the Buddha holding a cup of tea?

Her: Yep.

Me:: As a logo on T shirts?

Her: Yes. That's right.

Me: Look, I'm just a simple monk so you explain for me. What's the connection between the Buddha and clothing? And why the cup of tea?

Her: Well, you know. The Buddha is associated with, you know, spirituality, the infinite and all that. And the cup of tea suggests, you know, casualness, easygoingness, you know.

Me:: Mmm. Actually I don't know. But you would like my opinion about this. Is that right?

Her: Yes.

Me: Well, I don't think this is very offensive and I don't think the average Buddhist would be offended by it either. I don't think they are going to throw rocks through you window, threaten to kill you or burn down your factory. But I do think that a logo like this belittles Buddhism and I think most Buddhists would agree with me. They would probably be more sad than angry that an images which is particularly meaningful to them was being used so frivolously. And also that it is being used for a commercial goal.

Her: But I'm a Buddhist myself. I would never belittle the Buddha.

Me: You're a Buddhist?

Her: Absolutely! I respect the Buddha and Buddhism (defensive).

Me:What are the Four Noble Truths?

Her: Er!..Um…Um. Er! The Four Noble Truths? (very hesitant)

Me: Yes, the Four Noble Truths. What are the Four Noble Truths?

Her: Er! D…D…D…Dalka?

Me: Mm. Am I right in saying that you are reading that from a book in front of you?

Her: I feel like I'm being interrogated here (slightly annoyed).

Me: Well. You told me you were a Buddhist. I asked you a pretty basic question about the Buddha's teachings and you didn't know it. The proper pronunciation is dukkha. I suspect that like a lot of people you mistake 'respect' for Buddhism, for liking it from a distance, while knowing very little about it and not practicing the parts that don't suit you.

Her: No! I really respect Buddhism.

Me: Well, to get back to your question. You asked me for my opinion about your logo and I told you what I think. I think it belittles and diminishes a noble man and a noble philosophy of life and I think it is an unfortunate choice. I think to use a sacred image for commercial purposes in insensitive to the feelings of others and inappropriate. It's on a par with getting an image of the Buddha, drilling a hole in the top of its head and sticking a lamp shade in it. I don't think I can say anything else.

Her: Well, thank you (irritated).

Me: Be well and happy.

[Yamantaka]

In my humble opinion, if any Buddha, Bodhisattva, Geshe or Lama saw an image of Buddha used as decoration in a bar or restaurant, or on a T-shirt, coffee mug or keyring, all you would get would be a smile. Respect for Buddha's teachings is shown by one's daily behavior, not by how one uses, views or even "desecrates" an image. In plain language, it doesn't matter. All that is important is one's own perspective on the teachings and how they are put into practice.

As far as eating meat, I was a vegetarian for most of twenty years, when a very highly realized Lama told me to start eating meat, which, of course, shocked me. He explained that I had reached a "plateau" in my spiritual development because my ego was telling me what a "good Buddhist" I was because I was a vegetarian, and that was stifling my spiritual growth. Instead he said I should eat meat and think about the suffering caused at the death of the animal I was eating. Needless to say, this has interefered with my dining pleasure at Sizzler.

[camerata]

As far as eating meat, I was a vegetarian for most of twenty years, when a very highly realized Lama told me to start eating meat, which, of course, shocked me. He explained that I had reached a "plateau" in my spiritual development because my ego was telling me what a "good Buddhist" I was because I was a vegetarian, and that was stifling my spiritual growth. Instead he said I should eat meat and think about the suffering caused at the death of the animal I was eating.

Did it work? Did your spiritual development improve after you started eating meat? It doesn't sound all that logical to me. If one's ego is getting swollen by doing a lot of good, surely there's a better way to deflate it than by doing bad things and reflecting on them.

[Yamantaka]

As far as eating meat, I was a vegetarian for most of twenty years, when a very highly realized Lama told me to start eating meat, which, of course, shocked me. He explained that I had reached a "plateau" in my spiritual development because my ego was telling me what a "good Buddhist" I was because I was a vegetarian, and that was stifling my spiritual growth. Instead he said I should eat meat and think about the suffering caused at the death of the animal I was eating.

Did it work? Did your spiritual development improve after you started eating meat? It doesn't sound all that logical to me. If one's ego is getting swollen by doing a lot of good, surely there's a better way to deflate it than by doing bad things and reflecting on them.

I am not sure I have progressed far enough along the spiritual path to evaluate whether there was any improvement. But being undoubtedly the most ignorant of all Dharma students, I do not hesitate to listen to someone who is as highly realized as he is.

I think for me, it comes down to labeling, which is a major part of our delusion. Eating meat is not a bad thing. Being a vegetarian is not a good thing. My feeling "satisfied" with the level of my spirituality and therefore not striving to progress further was a negative attitude with negative results.

The goal for me is to become enlightened so I can help free other beings from their suffering, so standing still is the same as saying "I don't care if others suffer." Considering that I do not pass a single day without awareness of the suffering all around me, and without feeling the need to do something about it, my guess and hope is that it has worked.

[dave_boo]

I'm confused.

I thought that one of the core truths was that suffering was caused by attachment to worldly objects. The representation of the Buddha is not as important as the ideals that he preached. To demonstrate concern over preceived mis-representations of the Buddha says more about those who are attempting to walk the path than those who 'improperly' erected the images.

The importance people place on these images amounts to Tanha in my opinion. After all, the Tipitaka states that the love of matieral objects follows this path: attachment, possessiveness, and then defensiveness (which causes strife with others).

Acceptance that people will use this image, which has no real import, and instead engaging them in constructive conversation explaining what the Buddha taught would be more useful. This free exposure of the philosphy provides a wonderful window of opportunity to spread the teachings.

Edited September 24, 2008 by dave_boo

[Groongthep]

This is the website for a Thai restaurant and bar called "Buddha Bar" near my home in the trendy Belltown neighborhood of Seattle: Buddha Bar Website. The entire place is decorated with Buddha images and Buddhist related decorations. The owner and maitre'd is an intelligent and educated young Thai-American woman and the cooks and entire staff (except the bartenders) are also Thai. When I asked her if she thought that the use of Buddhist imagery in an establishment that served liquor might be considered disrespectful she looked a bit uncomfortable and avoided answering. She is good person and a friend of mine and I didn't want to put her on the spot so I changed the subject. I will admit, the place can be quite peaceful and relaxing in the afternoon but in the evening, especially on the weekends, the place has DJs and dancing and is anything but peaceful. I myself can't help but feel a little uneasy about using objects that many people highly respect to spruce up a booze joint. On the other hand it hasn't bothered me so much as to keep me from sometimes patronizing the place.

BTW: For those of you who are curious, the Thai food there is unfortunately the bland made for farang variety.

The Owner

[robee]

Vegeterianism is not a core Buddhist belief.

The Buddha ate meat and the rules he made for monks allows them to eat meat too. Basically there is no teaching (at least that I have ever heard of) where the Buddha prohibits eating meat.

Chownah

Yup yup

[CuriousGeorge77]

We cannot control what is around us, but we can control what things mean *to us*. If McDonald's starts hawking Buddhaburgers and replacing Ronald McDonald with the Buddha, such that we can't see the Buddha without thinking of nasty asty french fries, then we would have to get a new image.

The Buddha images in question only come from the Macedonians, anyway. Before that there were pictures of footprints and drawings of empty chairs. Personally, I find those far more meaningful. But thats me. I also manage to see an empty chair without thinking of IKEA.

But in any case, I actually see a net plus here for Buddhism. Having Buddha's image around increases the likelihood that someone will look closer. They'll see the Buddha at a bar, they'll put a Buddha lamp up, and they'll buy something by the Dalai Lama. Some of them might even read that book thoughtfully....

[camerata]

Indonesia: 'Buddha Bar' Pressured To Close

JAKARTA, INDONESIA -- The hip French lounge chain Buddha Bar is under pressure to close its only Asian branch amid corruption accusations and protests by Buddhists who say the use of their religious symbols are blasphemous.

Since the Dec launch of the club in Jakarta, Buddhist students have demanded it be shut down, with dozens burning incense and praying outside. An independent corruption watchdog said Thursday (12 March) the venue, an elegant Dutch colonial-era building, was purchased and renovated with nearly $2.9 million in public funds before being turned into a private commercial enterprise under questionable circumstances.

Several people involved in the project have ties to the political elite.

Continued at Buddhist Channel.

[phetaroi]

With regard to Buddha images, the West has been fascinated by exotic oriental art and sculpture for a long time, and never made any particular distinction between religious and non-religious images - after all, it's all pagan! And Buddha images do have a very serene air about them.

I don't think a serious Buddhist would be offended by a Buddhist statue in a restaurant/bar - no matter how inappropriate it may be - but the problem is how to use Buddha images as an aid to mindfulness or contemplating the Buddha's virtues if they are seen everywhere in a commercial and decorative setting.

It's curious that Lama Surya Das says, "Buddha's a fat, happy laughing Buddha..."

I hope I'm a serious Buddhist...and while I don't mind displaying Buddhist art for the sake of art, I am offended on occasion when I have seen inappropriate displays where there is no level of respect...just as I would be for crucifix of Jesus. And again, I am liberal about it...for example, not offended at Salvador Dali's use of the crucifix in a number of paintings.

[phetaroi]

Indonesia: 'Buddha Bar' Pressured To Close

JAKARTA, INDONESIA -- The hip French lounge chain Buddha Bar is under pressure to close its only Asian branch amid corruption accusations and protests by Buddhists who say the use of their religious symbols are blasphemous.

Since the Dec launch of the club in Jakarta, Buddhist students have demanded it be shut down, with dozens burning incense and praying outside. An independent corruption watchdog said Thursday (12 March) the venue, an elegant Dutch colonial-era building, was purchased and renovated with nearly $2.9 million in public funds before being turned into a private commercial enterprise under questionable circumstances.

Several people involved in the project have ties to the political elite.

Continued at Buddhist Channel.

LOL...so it's "the French" who always seem so sensitive about themselves not being respected!

[fabianfred]

Perhaps you've been exposed only to Thai version of Buddhism. I don't remember where I learn first about it, but Buddhists were supposed to be vegetarians. I think it's general understanding in the West.

I would say it is a general MISunderstanding in the West

[sabaijai]

Hundreds protest against Buddha Bar in Indonesia

(AFP) – 1 day ago

JAKARTA — Hundreds of people protested in Jakarta Wednesday against the local branch of the Buddha Bar chain, demanding its closure and saying it threatened interfaith relations.

About 300 people from a group calling itself "People's Alliance to Close Buddha Bar" gathered in white shirts outside the bar, shouting "Close Buddha Bar right now".

The plush lounge bar and restaurant, a franchise of the French-based chain, faced a series of demonstrations last year from enraged members of Indonesia's Buddhist minority who considered the name an insult to their religion.

It adjusted its name to "Buddhabar" but that failed to quell the protests.

"We're worried the existence of Buddha Bar can damage relations between people from different religions, and can also threaten the nation's unity," rally spokesman Karya Elly said.

Elly said the group demanded that the government immediately close the bar -- known for its trademark lounge music and Oriental design -- because it had been mired in religious controversy since it opened in late 2008.

"Although I'm a Christian, I feel that the name of the bar has defamed Buddhism as a religion. The government should close the bar, then change its name if they want to re-open it," he said.

Elly said they had also protested outside the French embassy, urging the French government to pressure the chain, which is owned by the George V Eatertainment group, to revoke the licence of the Indonesian franchise holder.

"The bar has tarnished the good name of Buddha. There are prostitutes hanging out there, and that cannot be forgiven," university student Catur Setiawan said.

Setiawan, a 22-year-old Buddhist, said the presence of Buddhist statues in the bar insulted his religion. A five-metre (15-foot) statue of a golden sitting Buddha gazes over its main dining area.

"What's next? Christ Bar, Islam Bar, Hindu Bar?" Buddhist protester Yani, 70, said while holding a banner filled with supporting signatures.

French ambassador Philippe Zeller said the embassy was not able to give an opinion on a commercial issue regarding an Indonesian company.

"I told them that we understand the emotion that they have expressed today," Zeller said after receiving a delegation of three demonstrators.

The bar's management could not immediately be reached for comment.

Muslims make up roughly 90 percent of Indonesia's 234 million-strong population, but the constitution also recognises the country's Christian, Hindu, Buddhist and Confucian minorities.

Copyright © 2010 AFP. All rights reserved.

[Xangsamhua]

Not the sort of thing I'd normally get worked up about. Clearly the "Buddha" theme is not directed at the actual Buddha, but at some kind of exoticism associated with the Orient and Kiplingesque evocations of Buddhist imagery.

However, I felt a little odd being taken to a bar-restaurant in Brisbane a couple of years ago called the Jade Buddha, which had a couple of nicely lit deva- or bodhisattva-type statues inside and a badly misplaced Buddha-head at the entrance outside (placed at ground level), but otherwise seemed to have nothing to do with the name. My wife was not happy about the lowly-placed Buddha-head, so we sent a courteous email to them pointing expressing our concern, but got no response.

Since then, it appears they've introduced exotic dancing, so have moved from perhaps excusable insensitivity to blatant bad taste. Readers may be interested in seeing what I'm talking about in the following link: http://www.jadebuddha.com.au/gallery/ (and, no, this is by no means an indirect plug for the place ).