Gasohol Damaged Bike.

[mike100]

Had a problem with my Kawasaki Boss a few days ago refusing to start.

Owned from new with 5,000k on the clock, and serviced a week beforehand.

The dealer came out to the house, also couldn’t get it going and transported it back to the shop.

Had a call yesterday saying that there was Gasohol in the tank and it had destroyed the carburettor and thought to have done some piston or ring damage. He also said this was the third bike in the last two weeks he had to sort out because of Gasohol being used.

I had topped up the tank a day previous to the problem and guess I should have been paying more attention at the gas station. Did less than 5 km before it failed.

Back and working again now with a new carburettor, but was told they would need to strip down the engine over the next few weeks to check out and replce some parts.

Hope my experience will save others these problems.

Mike.

[terdsak_12]

I went to Khao Yai last weekend, stopped at a pump, told the guy 95 full tank, went for a piss, and came back and he'd filled it with Gasohol, fortunately only 7 literes went in to mix with the 13 litres of 95 already in there, no problems so far, but I was worred for a while.

[Gazza]

Mike, I've never heard of gasohol causing a problem like yours so quickly. You put in gasohol one day and by the next it's ruined your carb and possibly the top end?

How old is your Boss? I thought most vehicles since around '93 (?) were able to run on Gasohol.

Did you have to pay for a WHOLE new carb or just carb jets, needles and seals?

[tracker]

I have a yamaha tdm850 '99. I use about 4 gasohol (91 at bangchak) tanks on 1 normal 91 tank. It has a little less power on the gasohol. Besides that, no problems.

I do have sometimes problems with the normal (91) gasoline in ptt pumps. Sometimes it feels like I filled up 95. The bike has a lot less power and runs like shit. It also consumes more. Definitely not stable quality at ptt.

[Gazza]

I noticed a very slight loss of power when I was switching between 95 and gasohol on both my bikes, Honda 400 and Harley 1340. Both '98 models.

Felt like I was riding on a road with a very slight gradient.

Only noticed a loss of consumption on the Harley. I used to nearly always get around 220kms out of a full tank using the bike to go to the same places and riding sedately as always. Now I get around 200kms to a tank.

No other problems though.

Edited August 9, 2006 by Gazza

[mike100]

Mike, I've never heard of gasohol causing a problem like yours so quickly. You put in gasohol one day and by the next it's ruined your carb and possibly the top end?

How old is your Boss? I thought most vehicles since around '93 (?) were able to run on Gasohol.

Did you have to pay for a WHOLE new carb or just carb jets, needles and seals?

Hi Gazza,

My Boss is a 2003 with just 5,600 K completed.

After it refused to start, I had to wait a couple of days for my wife to get back from up country to arrange for the dealer (from where I bought it and had serviced since new) to come out.

In that time petrol was leaking at a slow drip pace from what seemed to be the rear lower end of the engine. The dealer said the Gasohol had caused the floats to jam open amongst other things that my wife could not translate. I guess that the Gasohol running through the carb caused further damage over that period.

He replaced the complete carb unit, and gave me the old one back. So far the costs have been 5,200 baht, and it is running ok, although not as smoothly as before this problem. His advice was to let them check it out for further damage within the next few weeks when I have time. Hope I haven’t been scammed.

To be honest, I didn’t realise that the Gas station put Gasohol in my tank, but even if I knew, had no idea it could cause any damage.

Drive a Diesel Tiger most of the time, hence my bikes low milage.

Mike.

Edited August 9, 2006 by mike100

[HDRIDER]

Gazza

Gasohol on your Harley, i could not do that to mine, no way.

[thedi]

I have an 8 years old Kawa Boss and use only Gasohol for more than a year and more than 5000 km now.

Beside that I have a 7 year old 1300cc Yamaha Royal Star which also runs well with gasohol.

Both bikes drink about 10% more than with normal 95 - but there is no other 'rai sarn' where I live (Manchkiri, Khon Kaen), so I continue to use it.

My experiance is quite different: gasohol was no problem for me - at least up to now.

Regards Thedi

[Neeranam]

What should I use for my 98 Mazda Astina?

[terdsak_12]

I have a yamaha tdm850 '99. I use about 4 gasohol (91 at bangchak) tanks on 1 normal 91 tank. It has a little less power on the gasohol. Besides that, no problems.

I do have sometimes problems with the normal (91) gasoline in ptt pumps. Sometimes it feels like I filled up 95. The bike has a lot less power and runs like shit. It also consumes more. Definitely not stable quality at ptt.

I got a TDM too!! The Gasohol doesn't hurt it? How about just using 91? Reckon that'll give me any problems, not too concerned about power loss as my bike has tons of the stuff anyway.

[higgy88]

You guys who need to use 95 octane fuel really should google "gasohol" and take a real good look at exactly what the problems are associated with using it. Although my bike and car can both use 91 here, I was in exactly the same boat you guys are in when they phased out leaded fuel in the USA. If, after reading all you can about using alcohol fuel from the experts, you still don't want to use it here in LOS, then take a good look at your options and if there are additives available that you can add to 91 to increase the octane number, but take a good read at exactly what these additives do. A good example is STP Octane Performance Booster. It can do a lot of things to help your engine run better, but one thing it does not do is increase the octane number of the fuel you are using. Good luck you guys.

Higgy

[Hog Head]

Virtually all carberated cars and bikes, some not so old injected cars, and several new fuel injected cars cannot run on E-10.

As of Jan 1, 07 petrol 95 will not longer be available. Those of us that cannot run on petrol 91 will have no choice but to use E-10 (10% ethanol) fuel. As of 2009 we will be forced to use E-20, and no word on the fate of petrol 91.

Note that PTT is now introducing 91 gasohol, and I hope this is not a precursor to withdrawing good old 91 as well.

The problem is that not all vehicles are capable, or even safe to run on gasohol. This an endemic, knee jerk, ill thought through reaction, with little or no thought about backward compatibility. The Fuel Research Dept. of the Petroleum Authority of Thailand researched the use of gasohol in fuel injected (FI) engines only, did not test every engine operating in the market, and did not test carbureted engines. A half assed test to say the least.

Industry research indicates that E-10 fuel is in fact incompatible not only with some new FI systems, but also with older FI systems, and carbureted vehicles. The incompatibility issues with E-20 are even greater. This incompatibility creates not only operating problems but raises serious safety issues.

The vehicle manufacturers, not fuel manufacturers, government bureaucrats and politicians, or industry bodies, are the ones that need to issue compatibility statements. Thai vehicles have a very long lifespan and not everyone can afford to buy a new fuel injected vehicle. What the Consumer needs is a definitive E-10 and E-20 compatibility statement for every car and motorbike in operation on Thai roads. Such information is readily available in other markets, and one can only wonder why it is not available in Thailand.

Australian manufacturers information shows that gasohol incompatible vehicles run the gamut from a new 25 million B Ferrari to the ubiquitous 30,000 B motorbike. Why is there no consumer outcry? If we the Consumer continue to do nothing, what are we to do when faced with replacing a perfectly serviceable vehicle for lack of suitable fuel.Worse yet if it leaks fuel and becomes unsafe.

By all means introduce gasohol, but keep petrol 95 available for those who have no choice. At the same time follow Ford's lead and introduce E-20 or preferably flex fuel vehicles so that we are in a position to use E-20 in 2009 and not be in the same incompatibility boat.

An entire other subject is the economics of all the push to gasohol. Who owns the ethanol producers anyway, and you can bet it will not be the sugar cane farmer getting rich on this. Currently gasohol is about 1.5 bhat cheaper than petrol, ethanol producers are subsidsed by the government 2.5 bhat per liter, and E-10 is between 1- 5% less efficent than petrol depending on the vehicle. There is a valid reason that you get less range per liter and the bike seems to have less power - less BTU per unit.

Lets see - 1.5 B cheaper and 5% less range is the same. Assuming that you can even run on it, is this cheaper to the consumer.

Ethanol is an oxygenator in petrol, and is replacing MBTE. Not a single drop of oil is being saved by the switch to E-10 and it is imported MBTE that is being saved.

I see the government is now saying that withdrawl of petrol 95 on Jan 1, 07 may not happen on schedule due to lack of ethanol production capability. I trust this is a face saving move to cover their lack of forward thinking on gasohol and alternative fuels in general, and petrol will continue to be available to those who cannot use gasohol.

Maybe someone that just bought a 25 million B Ferrari that cannot run on gasohol has a bit more influence than I and can bring the government to think ahead for a change.

BTW, the problems with your carb are related to the fact that some buna rubber gaskets swell 6000% in gasohol, and that is why it is leaking. You can bet the average uninformed motorist buys gasohol because it is cheaper, and the pump jockey says it is OK. I wonder how many bikes need to burst into fire before someone clues on?

Robert

[higgy88]

You should all do some reading up on gasohol and it's effects, although you can always believe whatever your Thai mechanic and/or Thai politician tells you. I like to find things out for myself, and there is nothing like the internet, and this forum where I have gotten a lot of very good information and a lot of very different perspectives.

Here's a copy of a page from my Honda Phantom owner's manual, which I purchased new about 4 years ago when they decided to get rid of the 150cc 2 stroke and came out with the 200 cc 4 stroke. I got one of their first deliverys to the dealership in Lamphun. I also asked for the owner's manual in English and they bent over backwards to get it for me.

Here is a web link with what other motorcycles mfgrs put in their owner's manuals. Harley Davidson actually recommends that you use it over pure petrol. I found that very interesting.

E10 Unleaded in Motorcycles.

[Gazza]

Thanks Higgy.

I have read that statement by HD in their owners and workshop manuals.

It should also be noted that the HD manuals recommend using an octane rating of 87 or higher. All very well if you're in the USA but the equivalent octane rating for 87 in Thailand is above 91 here.

So if anyone has a vehicle that can't run on gasohol and they're advised to run it on 91 octane, check the source of information. Not all countries have the same ratings.

[geoffphuket]

I've used gasohol in my little 120cc 2 stroke Yamaha for the best part of year now. During that time I've done appox' 20,000 Klms with no ill effects. I think if something was going to be damaged, it would have happened by now.

[davidgtr]

Its pretty hard to believe that this sort of damage would just happen in 24 hours.

Most info seems to suggest that rubber deterioration happens very slowly over a long period (years?) of time, and generally is not worth worrying about. Although there must be exceptions to the rule.

[HDRIDER]

Hi

Are you guys using gasohol be course its cheaper?? if so, most of you say that the car/bike dont run as far as for Gasoline, so why?

[higgy88]

Just a little more information you guys may be interested in. If you see a tanker truck filling up the petrol station's underground storage tanks, keep on driving. When they fill up the station's tanks, it really stirs up all of the shit, setiment, and especially the water in the bottom of the tanks and mixes everything together with the fuel, and you really don't want that pumped into your car or motocycle. You need to wait about an hour before all the shit settles back to the bottom. I don't have the facts about Thailand, but water seeping into the underground fuel storage tanks can be a very big problem in the USA, and I think it can only be even worse here especially now in the rainy season. And I doubt very highly that they do the maintenance that they should.

There are two ways of measuring the octane of the fuel, the research octane number and the motored octane number. In the USA, the number on the pump is the average of the two. In Thailand it is just the research number. 87 octane in the US is approximately 91 octane in Thailand, and I say approximately because it is all statistical averages rounded off to the nearest whole number. A couple of tenths of an octane really doesn't mean that much, although in some cars it might, and that is why the owner's manual always says if your car isn't running so good on a particular brand and/or from one station, try to change the brand or the station you go to.

And one more thing. I've been living here long enough to know that this is the land of "pass the buck" and it's always someone else's fault. When I first got dial-up internet and the connection sucked, the ISP said it was your phone line, and the phone company said it was your ISP. That way everyone was happy, except me of course. I can easily see a lot of repairs now being blamed on gasohol when in fact it was not the real cause of the problem. It is just going to be so easy to do that.

[Gazza]

HDRider, I don't use it because it's cheaper. I use it because it's available at every station and so it's easier to find when running on reserve. I use 95 octane when I come across it.

[Gazza]

87 octane in the US is approximately 91 octane in Thailand, and I say approximately because it is all statistical averages rounded off to the nearest whole number. A couple of tenths of an octane really doesn't mean that much, although in some cars it might, and that is why the owner's manual always says if your car isn't running so good on a particular brand and/or from one station, try to change the brand or the station you go to.

I've used 91 on the HD a couple of times and on both occasions got a severe knocking when riding up hills or accelerating hard (both while riding 2 up). I don't know the brands but I always stay away from the brand look-a-likes.

[HDRIDER]

HDRider, I don't use it because it's cheaper. I use it because it's available at every station and so it's easier to find when running on reserve. I use 95 octane when I come across it.

Hi Gazza

Good point, thanks Gazza

[HDRIDER]

87 octane in the US is approximately 91 octane in Thailand, and I say approximately because it is all statistical averages rounded off to the nearest whole number. A couple of tenths of an octane really doesn't mean that much, although in some cars it might, and that is why the owner's manual always says if your car isn't running so good on a particular brand and/or from one station, try to change the brand or the station you go to.

I've used 91 on the HD a couple of times and on both occasions got a severe knocking when riding up hills or accelerating hard (both while riding 2 up). I don't know the brands but I always stay away from the brand look-a-likes.

That what i am afried of, i got a TW with 95" kit and rivera dual 45 mikuni and a andrews TW 50 cam, dont think it like 91

[tracker]

Terdsak, I use only 91. I bought a TDM850 in Thailand and unfortunately, due to very long storage with almost empty tank, I got all this rust blocking the carbs and tank-tap all the time. I switched to another TDM from the same dealer, and drove also a third (TDM) for a week, when I had problems with the first. So I drove 3 TDM850's. They run bad on 95 (at least in thailand) which I used initially. I switched to 91 and got better running and went from 1ltr/16km to 1ltr/20km. So stay away from the 95!

With my 400km/week I know what I'm getting. I noticed that quality differs from station to station and from brand to brand.

For gasohol 91 you have only one choice (as far as I know) and that is bangchak. I use always the same station after finding out that at another station the 91-fillup was acting like a 95...

Be picky!

[terdsak_12]

Terdsak, I use only 91. I bought a TDM850 in Thailand and unfortunately, due to very long storage with almost empty tank, I got all this rust blocking the carbs and tank-tap all the time. I switched to another TDM from the same dealer, and drove also a third (TDM) for a week, when I had problems with the first. So I drove 3 TDM850's. They run bad on 95 (at least in thailand) which I used initially. I switched to 91 and got better running and went from 1ltr/16km to 1ltr/20km. So stay away from the 95!

With my 400km/week I know what I'm getting. I noticed that quality differs from station to station and from brand to brand.

For gasohol 91 you have only one choice (as far as I know) and that is bangchak. I use always the same station after finding out that at another station the 91-fillup was acting like a 95...

Be picky!

Thanks for the tips. I'll try 91 from now, hopefully it'll run a bit smoother.

Where did you get your bike from? Know any competent mechanics?

Wouldn't mind a TDM 900 soon!!!!!!

[bazmlb]

If it damaged the carb and did it that quick it would have probably been from the plastic float melting is my guess, some bikes may have floats that arent compatable with e10 or may have been rebuilt with non OE floats.

Switching to a lower grade ie 95 to 91 you need to be aware of detonation (pinging) and the damage it can do to pistons, so yes use a fuel octane additive but be sure what it does as well as it may have the same effect on floats etc.

I used E10 (105 Octance) in Australia in an older BMW before comming here and it was smoother and gave increased distance over a tank, Liberty Fuels even found in the new Commodores with country driving up to a 15% increase in mileage.

I am not sure about how it affects engine oils but some oils may have issues with e10 as well, if they do then scoring of the bores may occur due to washing from the e10, so it would be best to check if the engine oil you are using is compatable for e10, also those using LPG or NGV should check this as well.

I would also think a lot of the damage here occurs for the same reason it does in Australia, watering down of fuels or contamination, if you put 1000l of water in a 30,000l tank it doesnt need much metholated spirit to get the two to combine, but they do seperate and thats causes problems with fuel systems, tanks rusting etc.

[Hog Head]

I note that the E-10 compatibility statements are sponsored by the Nebraska Corn Foundation, and are generally warm and fuzzy statements without any vehicle specifics or age limitations. One must assume that these selective comments are related to new production only.

Similar non biased statements in Australia are much more specific, and one can see that E-10 compability is generally limited to recent closed loop FI vehicles. Older vehicles, most carb vehicles, and even new vehicles like Ferrari specifically say not to use gasohol

Note that these manufacturer statements are very specific on E-10. What to do when the government drops E10 in favour of E-20 in 2009 as currently planned?

While the new (all are FI now) Harleys are E-10 compatable, that is not the case with all HD's. Early open loop FI systems and all carb systems cannot compensate for the lower BTU's in E-10, and gaskets are not E-10 compatable. I currently have swollen and leaking petcock seals in a 00 Dyna, which I believe is a result of ethanol on the Buna-N seal - new Muniki 45 seems unaffected. Now all this assumes that your HD is stock, and that is usually not the case. One can rejet/reprogram to run richer, but this does not address the gasket issue. Granted it is no big deal to change all the gaskets and hoses to E-10 compatable materials, but how many owners or dinky shop mechanics are educated enough to do so?

I suspect your average Dream owner will ride it until it leaks or dies and hopefully not too many owners will burn up.

While math is difficult, this is a simple question. Assume 95 at 30 B liter, E-10 at 1.5 B cheaper, and you need to rejet 5% richer. Presto - gasohol is the same cost to the consumer as petrol 95.

granted some high efficiency cylinder head designs need only 1% more, but the cost savings is minimal at best.

The clean air argument is a pitiful joke in a country where diesels spew black soot at will without punitity.

If ethanol is no cheaper to the consumer, and ethanol producers are subsidsed by the government by 2.5 B liter, who is the winner?

A more sceptical individual would wonder who owns the ethanol companies, why the government is set on withdrawing petrol when not all Thai vehicles are E-10 compatable.

If it damaged the carb and did it that quick it would have probably been from the plastic float melting is my guess, some bikes may have floats that arent compatable with e10 or may have been rebuilt with non OE floats.

Switching to a lower grade ie 95 to 91 you need to be aware of detonation (pinging) and the damage it can do to pistons, so yes use a fuel octane additive but be sure what it does as well as it may have the same effect on floats etc.

I used E10 (105 Octance) in Australia in an older BMW before comming here and it was smoother and gave increased distance over a tank, Liberty Fuels even found in the new Commodores with country driving up to a 15% increase in mileage.

I am not sure about how it affects engine oils but some oils may have issues with e10 as well, if they do then scoring of the bores may occur due to washing from the e10, so it would be best to check if the engine oil you are using is compatable for e10, also those using LPG or NGV should check this as well.

I would also think a lot of the damage here occurs for the same reason it does in Australia, watering down of fuels or contamination, if you put 1000l of water in a 30,000l tank it doesnt need much metholated spirit to get the two to combine, but they do seperate and thats causes problems with fuel systems, tanks rusting etc.

[bazmlb]

Seems like a good opportunity for a reliable E10 conversion business or two here hey?

In Australia they released higher octance rating e10 to try to combat the lower BTU which is why its 100 and 105 octane as most cars run on 88 there as regular fuel. so they should have released a higher octane than 95 for gasahol? like 105 here?

[Japhrodisiac]

If it damaged the carb and did it that quick it would have probably been from the plastic float melting is my guess, some bikes may have floats that arent compatable with e10 or may have been rebuilt with non OE floats.

Actually, the float needle would be the culprit. Plastic floats used in motorcycle carbs are impervious to chemicals, including carb cleaners etc. However, it only takes about 5 minutes soaking in a non-compliant solvent to see the non Viton type of O rings and float needle tips to swell up like a balloon. I doubt there is further engine damage, and the fact that the new carb doesn't run as smoothly as the old one on his bike is probably down to settings such as fuel mixture screw and such.

[taxexile]

there is a letter in todays bangkok post motoring section regarding the damage gasohol can do to combustion engines and how it has been taken off the market in japan after only 2 years because of this.

[Crossy]

there is a letter in todays bangkok post motoring section regarding the damage gasohol can do to combustion engines and how it has been taken off the market in japan after only 2 years because of this.

The letter is here http://www.bangkokpost.com/Motoring/11Aug2006_motor008.php (don't know how long the link will last), it actually says Gasohol was taken off the market after two months